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Some thoughts on why we need to fix the cross-posting function by acidyo

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com
· @acidyo ·
$47.45
Some thoughts on why we need to fix the cross-posting function
This isn't meant to pressure @asgarth as he knows I've brought this up for him a few times, I'm just going to highlight some things on why I think this would drastically help a lot of engagement, retention and discoverability on Hive and primarily the front-ends that use this feature (@peakd and hive.blog as far as I know).

Not only was the cross-posting feature a big success on Reddit when it was first implemented but it showed why it was needed considering the way Reddit works with subreddits which is similar to what we have here on Hive; communities. The main difference between subreddits and communities is that subreddit usernames are "squattable", i.e. someone can quickly create r/hiveblockchain (which happened) and just hold onto the subreddit while pretending to do minor things but never letting someone actually interested in growing it take part. On Hive this can't really happen because the hive "accounts" that are created to represent a community only have ID numbers and the names can be changed, you notice this when you go to a certain community it'll show the hive-####### in  the link rather than the "Cats are assholes" community name. Another big difference is of course that Hive communities are immutable, while Reddit could just deem the owner of r/hive to be too inactive, or not belong there cause Hive's CEO contacted Reddit admins and wants the subreddit which Reddit would gladly kick the original creator of the subreddit for. (I've done this myself back when r/steemit was dead cause @ned the dumbass had forgotten his login details and I had to contact Reddit admins letting them know to invite other mods) On Hive on the other hand it's "your keys, your community", but the non-squattable nature is what gives the community (the people) the power to switch from "Cats are assholes" to "Cats are real assholes" if they don't like the way the previous community is run or if the owner does something malicious in the eyes of the subscribers. 

The small issue with this is that it makes community discoverability not as easy in my opinion, for one, you can't easily link to said community when talking to someone or quickly wanting to share it on #web2. Not many are going to remember the 6 numbers associated with your community, I honestly don't even remember OCD's #'s. While reddit is famous for people being all "just visit r/aww if you're feeling down" and since most people are aware of reddit they'd know that all they need to do is add r/aww after reddit.com/. On Reddit you can also easily generate links to subreddits in the comments by just writing out /r/aww to make it clickable which isn't possible on hive, not even with the ID. While that part could be fixed at some point and this post isn't really about that, just thought I'd mentioned that would also be important to fix which I'm sure would be easy for most front-ends, especially pioneers like @peakd and then have the others copy the code to make it universal on most. Let's instead talk about cross-posting. 

https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/2014/05/02/22/36/metal-art-336404_960_720.jpg

[Source](https://pixabay.com/photos/metal-art-artwork-sheet-metal-336404/)

Cross-posting is quite unique on Hive, what it does in a nutshell is generate a new post on the blockchain layer where it pretty much just states "This is a cross-post of (post link)", but the front-ends edit the post's content out to preview the full post, which community it was originally posted in and if you were to upvote it it would upvote the original post or "refresh" you onto the original one so you can cast your vote. To avoid spam/abuse, which many early on loved to do when this feature was introduced, this "post" that's a cross-post of the original, thus a copy on the blockchain level, has it's rewards "declined". 

Now here's where the major issue is with the cross-posted post having rewards "declined" rather than declining rewards in different ways that have gotten a lot more popular over the years for obvious reasons. If I were to upvote a cross-post itself that has rewards declined, it means that not only will the author not earn any post rewards for the cross-post (which works as intended), but the curator will also have their returns removed which causes a lot of issues and stigma towards cross-posts. Doing it every now and then is fine, of course, not a big deal to lose a little bit of APR here and there, but if you want to use the cross-posting feature more often you're going to quickly shoo away any autovoters or supporters you've gained over the years cause they'd be noticing how say one or two thirds of their votes on your posts are returning no curation rewards.

The small change that'd need to be placed would be to send rewards of the cross-posts through beneficiaries to @hive.fund/@null rather than "declining", this gives curators still returns, I highly doubt there's instances where this could be abused, at least I can't come up with any. What this opens up is that not only can authors now, both new and already established ones cross-post freely, but it also allows other accounts to cross-post posts of other authors which is something I know we at @ocd would appreciate to be able to at the very least. We've been trying to ask authors posting into the OCD community for a very long time now where they could post instead in more appropriate communities and with this it would allow the @ocd accounts themselves to cross-post their posts into new communities without ocd curators losing out on autovoters/supporters for simply declining rewards on the cross-post when trying to bring more traffic to the post they cross-posted. 

I've also been in some talks with @anomadsoul lately about some things that have been bothering me, for instance communities like @leofinance not enabling posting into different communities from their front-end if the post in question may be more about say gaming rather than finance. While we've gone into this quite a lot and there's reasons as to why or why not from both sides, we both agreed that cross-posting would help this. 

As a simple example, if I were to post about World of Warcraft and in part mention the auction house and gold economy in the post I'd feel like this would be something of interest to finance subscribers, but posting it solely to c/leofinance would mean that the main part of the post and possibly interested new readers wouldn't be able to find it because they've subscribed to many gaming communities but aren't interested in finance. While I'd still get some engagement from my followers looking into their feeds, or those subscribed to both gaming and finance communities seeing my post in their communities feeds, or if the post were to trend those looking at the trending list. The users, often times newer ones or returning users who are only subscribed to gaming communities, not following me, not checking trending, would never be able to read a post they would've wanted to. 

There's many examples I believe where a healthy cross-posting usage would benefit the community as a whole. I remember a few months ago I was searching for "hive blockchain" on youtube, after shifting through that dumb mining company and finding YouTubers talking about our actual blockchain. I find through their channel what their Hive username is and when I get here I noticed that they've been posting quite often, for a while, quite decent posts too, but the problem is that they had been posting solely onto a "anything goes" community that is so massive it seemed his posts were just hidden in the masses, a.k.a. firehose effect overshadowed his content from readers. Unfortunately this Youtuber who had a decent amount of subscribers had received close to no engagement, no followers and no curation on his posts and shortly after had just given up which really sucks to see. 

With a healthy cross-posting activity we could create a ton of new initiatives to go out and look for authors and posts like these, not just within our own community where we try and ask them to post in more appropriate communities so they'd find their "home", the subscribers and consumers interested in what they post about. It could become the norm for any stakeholder that has active followers/following to gladly cross-post other people's posts onto other communities they think it would fit in. 

Of course some communities may be against cross-posts, and that's fine. Of course some users would also attempt to spam cross-posts onto any and all community they think it would fit into, maybe some communities there's no way it would even. Luckily we have the tools to deal with this, communities can mute specific posts, cross-posts and eventually even authors from showing up on the community feeds if abused. 

Lastly the biggest reason why cross-posting is important to be used often is discoverability, not just for the authors as mentioned above but also for communities. This is something that has been one of the best use-cases I've found for cross-posts on Reddit as it has introduced me to so many different subreddits I would've never been able to stumble upon on my own or at times even be able to search for if I knew I was looking for them due to their names being somewhat random at times compared to what they're about. This is again not the case on Hive with the community names but it wouldn't hurt to make new, active, well-ran communities easier to be discovered through cross-posts (and in the future hopefully also easier to be linked in comments/posts)

Anyway, if you read this far I'd appreciate your time and thoughts on the matter, I know it kind of seems like an obvious change with no downside that I can think of but I think it's important to highlight the pros of this change. 

https://images.hive.blog/0x0/https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/acidyo/23xKmtx2stpKP9Z7FKWJm6oDohuHxVtHKHQCUx6Fs8rDT65jB1FfvZ1xKByyeb3N1874c.png
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vote details (576)
@alex-rourke ·
$0.66
> a Youtuber who had a decent amount of subscribers had received close to no engagement, no followers and no curation on his posts and shortly after had just given up which really sucks to see.

Definitely sucks. 

I've also witnessed people quit because they weren't getting engagement on their posts, even if they were well made.  I'm sure he/she could have gotten a few more comments and/or upvotes with a little cross post from another Hiver who has an idea of a more appropriate community than the Everything (but nothing) Community.
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@anomadsoul ·
$0.62
It sounds like the community url could be fixed by frontends pretty easily, it's just about allowing peakd.com/hive-000000 to be redirected from peakd.com/ihatecats and that's it. That would do wonders in terms of sharing efficiency. It's such a low hanging fruit that I'm amazed nobody has done it yet.

Making crossposts unmonetizable works completely against the idea of crossposting, because it makes no sense for authors to xpost when all they will do is hurt their autovoters (making them potentially remove the author from their autovotes) 

Thinking out loud, I'm pretty sure that posting from Leo and allowing an *insta-cross-post* while publishing would be pretty doable on Leo Finance. Say your content is about finance but has gaming as well, the user could publish on Leo and then tick a button that allows the user to pick the gaming (any) community so that their post is cross posted the moment they hit publish. 

This is a great topic and I'm glad you brought it up on chain, let's see what other users have to say about this. I'm pretty certain that fixing the cross posting feature would solve a lot of discoverability issues on Hive.
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vote details (3)
@chinito ·
No real input here, but cross-posting is just confusing to me.. :P
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@crisch23 ·
πŸ€ͺπŸ‘Œ
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@drrune ·
I've used cross-posting once in a while but failed to see the point in it and everything I read from older users made me think that it was best to avoid the feature altogether, even though I knew it was hard to abuse it in its present form. With a change like these, I'd be more interested in cross-posting, because I write about a number of topics and often choose to stay in one community even if the topic at hand would do much better in another. Thanks for this post, it's very informative.
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@enforcer48 ·
$0.02
Is there a way to allow communities to add keywords to index posts like how tribes already do?
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vote details (2)
@nathen007 ·
$0.06
This would be the perfect solution.
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@enforcer48 ·
Just trying to throw ideas that works with our current setup.
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@erikah ·
$0.36
I remember you saying this before and also agree with you. Sending author rewards to @hive.fund and/or @null would be a way better solution than the one we have today and maybe more people will use it. 

Right now there's a lot of confusion about cross posting. New (and old) users don't really understand what it is. I've seen many saying *I've used cross posting but has not benefited me at all*. When I asked them what they meant, turns out they were expecting to be paid for each cross posting, which we know will never happen. Some however are using cross posting like crazy, cross posting their post in 3 or 4 communities, each time. While limiting the option would not be smart, I still think there should be a healthy balance and it would be the users responsibility to use it wisely. 

Back to changing the current declined reward system to sending rewards to above mentioned accounts, I don't see why it should not be implemented. I know it needs some work, but it would benefit the chain long term a lot. 
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vote details (1)
@freecompliments ·
$0.29
Thanks for posting this bright idea! 😊

As a prior Reddit user, I do agree that there's a great deal of value to be obtained from crossposting. It's a very valuable tool to, as you stated, pass content along to multiple audiences.

As a primary Ecency front-end user (among other front-ends depending on what I'm doing), I actually had an easy time cross-posting. I was able to select the option to crosspost and type in a community name. The process was seamless. This may be something that other front-ends can utilize.

That said, the crosspost does still lead back to the original post, so that people who see it will end up commenting on the original post. It's not a bad design by any means, but if someone wants to stay in their original community, this can run the risk of becoming confusing.
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vote details (2)
@acidyo ·
$0.11
Yeah, I agree, I think we'd see it being used a lot more if the "cross-post" didn't have rewards declined. While most newer users and those without a lot of autovotes wouldn't mind, those who do and are practically those with a lot of "attention" on hive aren't keen to use the cross-posting feature cause they'd screw over their autovoters which is something I reckon 90% of them wouldn't want to risk. 

Thanks, wasn't aware @ecency also has adopted the cross-posting feature! 
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vote details (4)
@gracybae ·
This is really interesting. Being able to post in one Community and cross post to another for more visibility and engagement, is awesome. 
I totally agree with your submission, for the cross posting functions to be fixed.

Kudos. 
I'll learn how to cross post short as I explore Hive more and more!
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@hivetrending ·
$0.38
I experimented a little in November. Started a brand new blog with no followers. Tried tweaking different things like tags. Anecdotally, the one thing that had the most impact on engagement is posting into a community. 

Your comment about the YouTuber reminded me of this. I think cross-posting could help a lot with visibility.
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vote details (1)
@incublus ·
It sounds very useful. I admire how you keep coming up with creative ideas like this on Hive, man. Although this idea has been on your mind for a long time haha.
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@indiaunited ·
Indiaunited Curation 1673003308278
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@jesusalejos ·
!PIZZA
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@kawsar8035 ·
I used to notice during cross posts that if there is an upvote it is visible.  But when I entered that post, the original post came and the original post was not upvoted.  So it felt different to me and I honestly didn't understand much about it.  Thanks for writing this beautifully.
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@larryparra ·
A todo esto pregunto, una publicaciΓ³n cruzada tambiΓ©n es cuando se publica en otra plataforma y en hive en mismo post.
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@mdasein ·
Maybe somebody can make a proposal on this so that the community can vote on it. Most likely this will be carried out as everyone agrees on this improvement. Looking forward to this improvement. 
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@melbourneswest ·
$0.09
That's not entirely correct with the Leo Finance posting because if it was gaming with a finance aspect then you could use the Leo Finance tag. We don't want people abusing things which is an interesting example you have raised considering OCD has an issue with me when all I have done is follow the contests and joined the communities asked. Now we're promoting abuse? 

I do, however like your idea of cross posting and I have never understood why it was null rewards and didn't just go back to the original post. Although we do have tags and perhaps it would be easier to expand that feature to enable the post to show in all tags in the post. I think at the moment it is only the first 6? 
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@acidyo ·
> why it was null rewards and didn't just go back to the original post.

no that one is quite obvious why it shouldn't work that way cause you could have same voters voting double/triple on the same post. 
πŸ‘Ž  , ,
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vote details (3)
@nathen007 ·
$0.20
The other, perhaps trite issue I have with crossposts is that they make the feeds look so messy. 

Please look into @enforcer48 's suggestion. This is the only real solution :-)
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@paradoxtma ·
I've long wondered why some people found cross-posting contentious, I think this cleared a lot of that up for me!

I agree that encouraging proper use of cross-posting can really help improve discovery on Hive. Many communities have content and subscriber overlap with other communities, and cross-posting into other relevant communities can bring a lot of extra eyes to a post.

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@pboulet ·
$0.34
As a cross-poster myself, I agree to your proposal, cross-post is indeed a good way to share some content with several more or less specialized communities. It is indeed a pity that the incentive to cross-post is low if such curation is not rewarded.  

I also agree that remembering the 6 digit names for the communities adds friction to sharing. 
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@acidyo ·
$0.25
I mean this change won't "incentivize" it with rewards, which I think is good for it to remain that way, similar to reblogs don't earn the reblogger rewards. All you do with reblog's is just altrustically help the author you reblog the post of get more attention/rewards if you have a good amount of followers who frequent your reblogs and like your history of sharing. Sure maybe they may thank you with an upvote on your comment on the reblogged post for having introduced them to the content they really liked (I some times do) or upvote your recent post as thanks, but not directly monetize cross-posts or reblogs. 

What this does is simply not dis-incentivize people from doing so and autovoters, whether we like them or not are a norm on this blockchain and won't go away soon and most authors are aware of this and many strive to receive some kind of autovoting support over time for their effort and consistency. This simply means that the authors won't be afraid to lose that support because their cross-posts are causing their supported to lose out on returns. 
πŸ‘  , ,
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (4)
@pboulet ·
Thanks for the clarification, it much clearer now πŸ‘
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@pizzabot ·
<center>πŸ• PIZZA !


I gifted <strong>$PIZZA</strong> slices here:
@jesusalejos<sub>(2/10)</sub> tipped @acidyo (x1)


<sub>Join us in <a href="https://discord.gg/hivepizza">Discord</a>!</sub></center>
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@seki1 ·
$0.33
I feel the cross posting is a great function for bringing users to communities where their posts would be more appreciated and mire appropriate.

I did indeed notice it wasn't done regularly and I wonder why?

Isn't it like reblogging but into a community?
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@acidyo ·
$0.11
Yeah but reblogging doesn't generate a "new post" and most autovoters can't differentiate between if it's a cross-post or a regular post. 
πŸ‘  
πŸ‘Ž  , ,
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vote details (4)
@trostparadox ·
Just thinking out loud here. 

Could this issue be solved if the front-ends facilitate expanded use of community tags?

The front-end’s edit module could list all communities (e.g. in descending order of engagement, with title), then allow authors to checkbox pick up to 10 community tags, in addition to the 10 standard tags.

So, each post could have up to 20 total tags, 10 topic related and 10 community tags. Or whatever numbers are deemed appropriate. 

Then it would be up to the individual communities to police abuse of their individual tags. 

Would this work, or am I missing something?
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@yonnathang ·
It is definitely something that had caused a lot of backlash, even some people are not sure how cross-publishing works. But I guess with these arrangements it should get a boost and be accepted again.
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