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The Fossil Argument for the Existence of a Historical Jesus by alexbeyman

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· @alexbeyman ·
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The Fossil Argument for the Existence of a Historical Jesus
http://i.imgur.com/sPVKdGO.jpg

It is a very popular argument these days that no evidence exists that Jesus Christ ever existed. I think because of the powerful appeal of a silver bullet, knockdown argument that would destroy Christianity if true. And it's even *better than true* from the perspective of a habitual debater; it's supremely defensible in argument. Those two aren't always one in the same. 

The *"YOU prove to ME Jesus existed"* stance, as with *"Atheism is the default"* puts the other guy on the defensive and makes him do all the work. When really, *"Jesus never existed"* is a positive claim, even if it can be phrased as *"Show me evidence Jesus existed"*. Of course, that evidence does exist. It's called Christianity. 

Before you bite my head off, take a look at this fossil left by a fish. Nobody argues there was never a fish there, because fish are still around for comparison (albeit of different species). 

http://i.imgur.com/KTESJdM.jpg

Likewise, nobody argues that petrified wood is just rock that happens to very closely resemble part of a tree. There are still trees, and the process whereby wood becomes petrified is well understood. So even though none of the original tree remains, it's not in question that it was in fact a tree at one point.

What does any of this have to do with Christianity? Well, consider the following traits of early Christianity as laid down in scripture. If you frequently read my posts, this will look very familiar to you and you're welcome to skip it:   

1. Claims world is ending imminently (1 John 2:18, Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 24:34)  
2. Wants you to give away belongings and follow him ( Luke 14:33, Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22)  
3. Wants you to cut off family who interfere (Matt. 10:35-37, Luke 14:26, Matthew 19:29)  
4. Unverifiable reward if you believe (Heaven, i.e. the carrot)  
5. Unverifiable punishment if you disbelieve (Hell, i.e. the stick)  
6. Sabotages the critical thinking faculties you might otherwise use to remove it (Proverbs 3:5, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Proverbs 14:12)  
7. Targets children and the emotionally/financially vulnerable for recruitment (sunday schools, youth group, teacher led prayer, prison ministries, third world missions)  

These things are still around! We call them end of the world cults. Or "botnets" when it's done with computers. There's never been one which had no central founding figure, as they're set up primarily to attract worship to that guy. Why would anybody do this when they'll be long dead by the time it really takes off? Ask the men who've commissioned giant statues of themselves around the world, throughout history, wishing to be remembered in an idealized way.  

http://i.imgur.com/kXkXAWg.jpg

We have seen cults survive the death of their founders in the modern era (Scientology). We even have [some idea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails#Sequence_of_events) of how that happens, psychologically. If you want to witness it yourself I recommend watching [this documentary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvytVhqiO6E) to the end. 

We've seen cults based around mythical figures, like John Frum. What we've never seen are founderless cults with this precise anatomy, where the primary requirement for salvation is always to venerate the founder as God, a prophet or whatever else. You don't do that unless the real point of it is to get as many people to worship the guy as possible, for as long as possible. 

http://i.imgur.com/Zz3kWiy.jpg

That's why if you're designing one of these, you include an urgent reason to evangelize (*"the end is nigh, the unsaved will burn"*) pre-emptively sabotage anybody who might try to steal your thunder (*"Many will come and say I am he"*) predict the coming of the time when most people have figured out what you pulled (*"There will be a great falling away from the faith in the end times"*) and persecution of your followers by basically everybody who either recognizes what they've been roped into (and are now trying to spread) or is in a competing one. (*"You will be killed because of me"*, *"your enemies will be the members of your own household"*, etc.

http://i.imgur.com/Ni176jL.jpg

So although the founder and original members are long dead and few relevant writings from the period have survived (the ancient fish), by comparing the religion they left behind (the fossil) to current examples of the same sort of thing (modern fish) we can be relatively certain there was a historical Jesus who founded Christianity.
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@complexring ·
Interesting analogy.  I'm more of the opinion that the various Jews that espoused Christianity understood that it was a continuation of the Judaic tradition under the astrological age.  

Essentially, you have those who understand the psyche of the masses (and let's face it, ancient man wasn't entirely dumb; humans at the time -- or at least the ones who had 'eyes who could see' and 'ears who could hear' were very much aware of the relation of how the constellations were entwined into the mythological stories) became tired of the entrenched system of the high priests and elders.

So, what do they do?  Go off and start talking about this Son of Man (even if he didn't exist) and everyone intuitively understands the story *because most people were still farmers and paid attention to the night sky*.

Maybe I am wrong ... but that's my interpretation of the events.  It still fits your 'fossilized' remains theory, kindof, maybe.

Good analysis though.
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@alexbeyman ·
I can't think of where but I've seen similar ideas in a book I once read. It may have been by Bart Ehrman.
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@complexring ·
Yeah, the whole, 'talk about some non-existent guy because we don't like the people in charge and they don't get us' seems odd ... but maybe that's how it happened.  Who the frak knows.  I'm a proud member of the know-nothing party.
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@isaac.asimov ·
Flesch Kincaid Grade Level
Hi! This post has a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flesch%E2%80%93Kincaid_readability_tests">Flesch-Kincaid</a> grade level of 8.4 and reading ease of 69%. This puts the writing level on par with Leo Tolstoy and David Foster Wallace.
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vote details (3)
@rottennasty ·
Keep up the great work @alexbeyman 
 Upvoted 
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@stan ·
https://i.gyazo.com/d4e1416a0226aa006d795a88cb4434b8.png

So, you use "cult" like its a bad thing, but that's only true if the the admiration of a person is "misplaced".
Obviously, if Jesus is who he says He is - God taking on human form - then it would be entirely natural and proper to direct religious veneration toward Him.

Finding that Christians are venerating (actually worshiping) Jesus proves nothing and adds nothing to the conversation.  

The existence of actual cults that improperly venerate some person says nothing about Christianity one way or the other.

It's only if Christians are wrong that they should be called a cult according to this definition - and this post does nothing to establish that.

I do, however, like your point that Christianity itself is *plenty* of evidence that Jesus existed!
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@alexbeyman · (edited)
>So, you use "cult" like its a bad thing, but that's only true if the the admiration of a person is "misplaced".

I think the fact that cults are designed to spread effectively whether their foundational claims are true or not is inherently bad. If your claims are true you don't need a cult to spread them. 

>Obviously, if Jesus is who he says He is - God taking on human form - then it would be entirely natural and proper to direct religious veneration toward Him.

Indeed, but you don't need a cult for that. Specifically one which promises a conveniently unprovable reward for belief and an also conveniently unprovable punishment for disbelief. The ol' carrot and stick, good cop bad cop tactic. 

>The existence of actual cults that improperly venerate some person says nothing about Christianity one way or the other.

Except that they are structurally identical and "work" the same way with respect to how they incentivize conversion, deter apostasy and motivate evangelism. 

>It's only if Christians are wrong that they should be called a cult according to this definition - and this post does nothing to establish that.

Not necessarily. There could conceivably be a cult based on truths. What makes it a cult is how it is structured in such a way as to motivate people  to join, to never leave, to avoid seriously entertaining their doubts, to fight efforts to reason them out of it and to go out and actively try to recruit more people into it. 

>I do, however, like your point that Christianity itself is plenty of evidence that Jesus existed!

I thought you would! But in this case the nature of that evidence also supports Christianity having been a cult. Again, that by itself doesn't prove its foundational claims false, it is just identifying Christianity as being cultic in structure and operation.
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@stan ·
Well, I guess I can concede that you have a potential hypothesis of what could have happened.

However, the alternative "theory" is that God really does intend to separate the sheep from the goats on judgement day based solely on their belief in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.  

All 6000 years of Christian history produced by 40+ authors over nearly 2000 years points to that same plan.  A long awaited messiah finally shows up and fulfills all that was foretold about him and he demonstrates his supernatural abilities over and over again and then makes it clear what The Rules are.

There is so much more to the story of Christianity, that pulling out a few pattern matches to cults or other religions is interesting but not really relevant.    It's like saying a sphere and a disk cast the same circular shadow on the ground.
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