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Cryptocurrency and the Privacy Conundrum by ats-david

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· @ats-david ·
$322.46
Cryptocurrency and the Privacy Conundrum
![bitcoin-2008262_1920.jpg](https://steemitimages.com/DQmRNkc2atDsGD1H9sxtbyTQ3s3T3bjVzRqL4x3WD5vMqVe/bitcoin-2008262_1920.jpg)

### Would mass adoption of cryptocurrencies improve financial privacy? And would it matter?

<br/>

In many debates about cryptocurrencies you'll find one side or the other talking about which one is the best, which one has the greatest privacy features, whether or not encryption is necessary, or if the currency is actually based on a "real" blockchain.   I was reminded of this once again while reading some of the comments in the latest [Twitter poll for Bobby Lee's BTCC exchange](https://twitter.com/bobbyclee/status/865851769116475392). 

This was the comment that got me thinking:

>Please consider Monero. There is a big need for privacy, fungibility and untraceability.

I suppose the "big need" for two of these features - privacy and "untraceability" - depends on your perception of the current state of...well...*the state.*  

If you strongly believe that individuals can only free themselves of their government's clutches by using a currency that can't be tracked back to you, then you might feel as though these features are absolutely necessary and any currency without them simply isn't worth using.  The desire for privacy in this case would seemingly outweigh other factors, such as the ease of use, acceptability, fees or the lack thereof, and the speed of transactions. 

But is this a reasonable view?  Is privacy really that important?  Can it actually reduce the power of the state?  Is the privacy *real?*

The argument that transactions are private on any given blockchain is a little misleading.  Yes, there are ways to conceal one's identity and you can certainly have a considerable amount of privacy if all of your transactions are contained within the network.  The question is: 

### Is this practical or even possible?

<br/>

In the case of the particular cryptocurrency in question - Monero - it certainly wouldn't be possible today.  There simply aren't enough businesses that accept cryptocurrencies in general, let alone *one* of these currencies.  Bitcoin is the current king of cryptocurrency and it still has a long way to go to reach mass adoption.  So, there really isn't a *possibility* of using any of these currencies as a means to completely avoid government interference in our everyday lives.

*Practically* speaking, the prospect of absolute privacy or "untraceability" is much closer to a pipe dream.  

First of all - every transaction on a blockchain is recorded on that blockchain.  It may be *difficult* to determine who is who or even the specific amounts of currency being transferred, but it's not *impossible.*  If you have the right information, any transaction can be traced back to an owner.

Secondly - if you are in business (at least here in the United States),  then you are likely registered with various levels of government in order to maintain a "legal" business entity.  There is no option for non-compliance with licenses and taxes.  You either register your business entity and pay your taxes or you risk being shut down, financially penalized, and/or sent to prison.  Regardless of what your views of the state are, the prospect of losing your wealth and sitting in a prison cell are large enough deterrents to skirting licensing and tax laws. 

If you're running a legal business, then you're likely collecting all transaction information from your customers.  If those customers are purchasing online and shipping the product is required, then those transactions - even if "private" via a cryptocurrency and its blockchain - will have, at the very least, a physical address attached to them in the company's invoices or transaction ledger.  With an increase of online purchasing and deliveries, it wouldn't be hard for any state agency to track down cryptocurrency users, if they really wanted to do so. 

So there's a dilemma for the business owner who wishes to keep their company and a dilemma for the cryptocurrency user who actually wants to purchase products with relative ease.  The latter can certainly go out of their way and seek out individuals who offer certain goods or services as "illegal" businesses, but the options will always be limited and riskier in comparison and the market will be significantly smaller. 

In the end, it essentially comes down to this: 

### Do enough people actually care?

<br/>

This is the question that we always need to come back to when dealing with sentiment about any coercive state and its laws and policies...*and cryptocurrency adoption.*  Are there enough businessmen and women who are *willing* to defy the state's laws and risk their livelihood?  Are there enough consumers willing to go through the relatively considerable amount of effort to acquire cryptocurrencies, find those businesses that are willing to accept them and disregard compliance laws, and then personally meet with these other individuals to acquire the product so that their transactions can be *more private.*  (And in this case, why not simply use cash?)   

In a world where simplicity and speed are what consumers want and how online transaction/ordering/delivery systems are trending, there doesn't appear to be a great rush to return to face-to-face meetings for purchases. 

So, are privacy and "untraceability" actually features that are needed or desired by the majority of any given society?  Is this a conundrum for cryptocurrency adoption as transactional currencies?  While mainstream adoption would theoretically be necessary to mitigate or even eliminate the vast power of the state, wouldn't such mass adoption simply provide a means for integration into the system that the state controls?  

### Can cryptocurrencies simultaneously operate beyond state influence *and* achieve mass/mainstream adoption?

<br/>

<hr>

<center><a href="http://www.steemimg.com/image/OQFVK"><img src="http://www.steemimg.com/images/2017/02/27/ats_content_slayer8f72e.md.jpg" alt="ats_content_slayer8f72e.jpg" border="0" /></a></center>

<center>Image courtesy of @mynameisbrian</center>

<hr>

<center><b>Follow me: @ats-david</b></center>
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vote details (432)
@aaronmda ·
https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@aaronmda/why-crypto-market-prices-plummet-as-soon-as-you-buy-them-and-what-you-can-do-to-avoid-it
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@alchemy20 ·
Here's your solution:

https://bitlaunder.com/

Completely erase the origins of your bitcoin and de-couple them from previous transactions. We launder bitcoin to protect your financial privacy online.


We are the most sophisticated and anonymous bitcoin mixing service available today. Powerful features give you total control over your bitcoin mixer.
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@ats-david ·
But what if you want to order something from Amazon?
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@alchemy20 ·
https://support.purse.io/general-questions/name-your-discount/
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@altccy ·
This might help? https://btcmanager.com/xmr-to-uses-monero-to-offer-bitcoin-users-complete-anonymity/
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@buzzbeergeek ·
$0.70
Related to the topic, I'm sometimes afraid people around me will find out how much I earn on Steemit and I feel guilty. Ever felt the same?
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vote details (23)
@ats-david ·
Yes. Every time my wife tells me that she's ready to quit her job! I keep telling her, "When the STEEM price reaches $5 and can stay there."
👍  
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@buzzbeergeek ·
Yeah! My girlfriend keeps asking me when will I cash out. It is so hard to explain that... :D
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@englishtchrivy ·
so can relate :D
I think it's cause we arent really used to having our wallet out in the open are we? never felt guilty though.
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@oldtimer ·
No reason for guilt here. We took risk early on and even in the future.
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@buzzbeergeek ·
True! Crypto bubble could burst at any moment. And then it will be run for your life :/
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@cassidyandfranks ·
$0.30
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vote details (21)
@denmarkguy ·
$0.30
I noticed that Monero comment/tweet on Bobby Lee's twitter.  It made me ponder the whole "privacy" issue... followed by the tricky analysis of where simple and basic "privacy" ends... and systems to protect illicit and antisocial behavior begins. 

In crypto circles we have a lot of self-proclaimed anarchists and Libertarians, among whome the broader public image is that privacy is to protect us from government interference. Fair enough, *on the surface.* But what exactly is it people want to *hide?*

For example, should we have privacy systems that "protects" someone's ability to kidnap children and anonymously collect payment to have sick and twisted individuals do unthinkable things to them, for "sport" or "entertainment?" Because (in a narrowly interpreted sense) that constitutes "freedom?"

But I digress... as you point out, completely "untraceable" is super hard to functionally implement; even if a business seller went through a "forwarding house" *(i.e. the order comes to my business from a forwarder; that's where I ship things, I don't see the end user's name; the forwarder sends the goods and "shreds" all customer evidence at time of shipment or confirmed receipt)* there will still be "trails" that could ultimately be dug up. 

I keep coming back to the same place... often the most privacy isn't available through technology, but by going completely "analog." Although of dubious functionality on a large... things like my wife trading life coaching sessions for organic veggies; the "transaction" is completely private because it essentially doesn't "exist" outside the minds of her and her client.

So I end up back at your point of *"Do enough people really care?"* As a general person with no love for the government, I'm content with "pretty hard to trace." And my cynical nature keeps asking that is someone is obsessed with "total" privacy... *what exactly are you trying to keep hidden?*
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vote details (21)
@firepower ·
$0.29
Great post man! Agree with your points! 

> So, are privacy and "untraceability" actually features that are needed or desired by the majority of any given society?

Cant speak for the masses but I would prefer portability, borderless features over 100% untraceability. If I can travel countries and use it anytime without the hassle like INR/USD then USD/something my life would be easier.
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vote details (20)
@freebornangel ·
$0.33
Rejecting rule by force would make many privacy concerns moot.
Good luck getting the beliebers to reject the one true god, though.
Currently not much stock has sold in the keep working, stop paying project.
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vote details (22)
@hgmsilvergold ·
Great article. Good governance is a must-have in any society. Currently it is seriously lacking, and negatively affecting all spheres including that of money.
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@hms818 ·
I believe that if a currency features  privacy and untraceability, then it will not be adopted by masses. Government will claim to public that those kind of currencies will be used by criminals as they cannot trace them back.
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@imtiazmahmood ·
nice work good stuff keep good work bro.
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@jessiemccartney ·
As an older person I find it very difficult to use.   I am not the most computer literate person in the world nor the most illiterate user of these devices.  If there is to be wide adoption of crypto currencies then ease of use is imperative for us old folks. I did buy  $100. of Bit Coin  but there again lies a problem with a cap on weekly purchases through coinbase.  sheesh. more trouble than it is worth to me.  Physical Silver and Gold is a much easier purchase.  It can be anonymous  depending on the amount purchased.  Crypto to me is a confusing mess of do's and don'ts    but still attempting to figure it out.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@kyle.anderson ·
$0.05
>First of all - every transaction on a blockchain is recorded on that blockchain. It may be difficult to determine who is who or even the specific amounts of currency being transferred, but it's not impossible.

Well yes every transaction is included in the blockchain. But with projects like Monero, knowledge of these transactions does not allow you to discover the identities of the participants. 

And the difficulty, *while strictly not technically impossible*, is so improbable that we have a greater likelihood of the sun supernovaing tomorrow than you being de-anonymized.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@ats-david ·
$0.04
>But with projects like Monero, knowledge of these transactions does not allow you to discover the identities of the participants.

Yes, but as I mentioned in the post, your anonymity depends on where/how you're spending the currency. If you're ordering from Amazon, there isn't much anonymity if you actually want your purchase delivered. There are ways to get around that - like shipping to some place where you don't actually live - but the question is whether most people will go through the trouble of doing that. 

Peer-to-peer on the blockchain is pretty much anonymous. Actually purchasing things from businesses in the real world opens various doors to your personal information. In a world with increasing online shopping/interaction, the trend is not to revert to in-person buying/selling any time soon. 

Monero may be pretty much anonymous/private, but how many people want/need that and are willing to take all of the necessary steps to use it as their primary or even secondary currency? And if purchasing anonymously or in-person is preferred, why wouldn't they just use cash, which is much simpler to acquire and spend?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@jasahasch ·
Man I get the creeps when I read things like ...  if you actually want your purchase delivered ... like shipping to some place where you don't actually live ... . 
It all sounds troubling.  Anything else comparable in the history of currencies to which can be compatible to the on set of bitcoin?
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@kyle.anderson ·
$0.05
I agree with the point you make in your post. You are right, interacting with most business is destructive to your anonymity. 
>Actually purchasing things from businesses in the real world opens various doors to your personal information.

I think that there will be decenteralized marketplaces that are able to keep the anonymity. There is something that can solve the problems you mention. 

The anonymous products will improve their usability, it will take time.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@pfunk · (edited)
The difference between Monero or Zcash and Bitcoin is that it's trivial to link one address to another in Bitcoin. All the information is laid out before you. Monero and Zcash break that link. So even though you could be shown to be spending them if someone dug deep enough, it's harder to show where that privacy token came from. Its chain of custody, who had what and when, is either really fuzzy or opaque. This is much greater privacy than what's offered by a blockchain like Bitcoin.
properties (22)
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@kyriacos ·
$0.30
I don't think it is possible since when it comes to technology there is always a loophole one can jump. In a way, you have to make sure that you are ahead of the game but can never rely on a permanent solution. 

This is the beauty of technology in fact. Competition brings innovation.
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vote details (21)
@lautenglye ·
upvote and resteem for u...
👍  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@lennartbedrage ·
$0.30
I often wonder much of the same. As I wrote about ways the [govt could end the crypto-bubble](https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@lennartbedrage/how-the-us-central-bank-will-pop-the-crypto-bubble), I think that they've already started the first few phases of their attempt to remove validity and trust behind the currencies, via the main stream media. 

That said, I think that when living in a country like the USA, you'll end up being forced to play by their oppressive rules. Bitcoin and Alt-coins may always have a place in the gray market - in those side channels where people prefer payments in things like cash, silver and gold.
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vote details (23)
@luckize ·
The privacy and anonymousity we seek can also have a negative effect on we the buyers. I think there should reforms and laws guilding bitcoin and other cryotocurrency trade so fraud can be minimised
👍  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@marzukibrain ·
You are great friends ..........
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@mr-noproblem ·
$0.30
Great article! Honestly I think it's only a matter of time as more and more people start to see the benefits in Cryptocurrencies but that could create a new set of problems with large scale adoption.
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vote details (21)
@ocrdu ·
$0.30
What is mass? The black, unaccounted economy is 14% of GDP in the OESO countries, even here in the relatively well-behaved Netherlands it is 10% of GDP, or 60 billion ₮s for this tiny country alone. There's some mass there, and as far as I have been able to observe it, quite a bit of mainstream as well 8-).

Other than that, the state will always try to have a look at money flows, and they can always force one transaction as a starting point for digging: you pay taxes in the coin of the land, and that is enforcable. Also, cooperations couple addresses to payments, for transport purposes. Having an anonymous currency doesn't help much when cooperations open their books to government.

Things could go mainstream with the endorsement of banks and cooperations, but that won't happen without government having a look.

So no, I don't think so.
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vote details (21)
@oldtimer ·
$2.06
No way to escape from government. Masses will adopt the most convenient, safe and easy to use Crypto token. Untraceability will  slow down adoption from people and make government more aggressive toward Crypto. If your account get worth millions one day, you don't want to mess with authorities. At least not me.
👍  , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@ats-david ·
>Masses will adopt the most convenient, safe and easy to use Crypto token.

Yeah, I think that's true as well. And it's likely why we still don't see any mass adoption. They're not that easy to use...certainly not very easy to acquire and spend, relative to existing currencies.
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@englishtchrivy ·
Masses will adopt?  I'm sorry but in what I'm witnessing around me - it's no longer a future modal that I could use on that phrase - It's progressive and on going - They are already adopting to it.
properties (22)
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@buzzbeergeek ·
Yeah. Even if they don't know I own crypto now, they would if I banked out to my fiat account. How would I explain that? I'm afraid of 25% tax in Croatia.
properties (22)
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@oldtimer ·
Why? If you made 500% gain or more your government deserve tax. Who liberated you and took out of ex Yu?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@ethancaine ·
$0.36
I love how if you take risks and make money the government wants part of it but when you lose money the government doesn't share in the loss.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@oldtimer ·
You're right, but that is the system  we currently live in. Don't loose sleep over this.
properties (22)
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permlinkre-ethancaine-re-oldtimer-re-ats-david-cryptocurrency-and-the-privacy-conundrum-20170523t174626919z
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@rokasltu ·
As cryptocurrencies are developed by humans, humans also might find ways to make such currencies traceable...
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@siddartha ·
I don't care much about the privacy from my country. All I care about is the possible good uses of blockchains like Steemit and being able to invest in the cryptos and profit from them.
And no, I don't think that cryptocurrencies can simultaneously operate beyond state influence and achieve mass/mainstream adoption also.
properties (22)
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@thatmemeguy ·
I think of crypto atm as a race. But there are different races in which different coins can participate. There is the main event you got on one side riding with pride BTC, in the other ETH and right behind them XRP. They are the main event in Crypto. Afterwards you have the 2nd division: Here you can see all the new ideas that have rose from the unknown to challenge the top horses.
 Afterwards you got MarioKart, it's fun but nothing serious yet. 
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/015/713/luigi.JPG
<center> 
_Unless you are this guy_
</center>
properties (22)
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@thecastle · (edited)
There are a couple layers to this that I think need to be mentioned. The first thing to keep in mind is that when you consider privacy you also need to consider all future technologies as well. While we might have some degree of privacy now, in 5-10 years someone is likely to create an AI that is super effective at finding patterns in peoples spending habbits with a large enough degree of accuracy that all of your past transactions and wallets will be revealed publicly.

The second point is that, while the government will have an easy time keeping tabs on legal businesses this will be extremely hard for them to keep track of the value of digital goods in general. This will probably fire up a huge debate on where to draw the line on what is or is not a valued digital good.

Should CS:GO weapon skins worth thousands of dollars be taxed? How will these kinds of things be tracked? How exactly will we be able to know how much money someone really has and how will we be able to determine who owns what. Mark my words, its a matter of time before some kid gets a super rare sword in an MMORPG and it results in the parents owing an additional sum of money during Tax season.
properties (22)
authorthecastle
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@twitterbot ·
### ![bobbyclee](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/662461711689977856/6eHZObYx_normal.jpg) **[Bobby Lee](https://twitter.com/@bobbyclee/status/865851769116475392)** tweeted @ 20 May 2017 - 08:48 UTC

> @YourBTCC Congrats to all 4 finalists!
Final Round, Battle of Digital Currencies:
Which should @YourBTCC offer?â€Ķ [twitter.com/i/web/status/8â€Ķ](https://t.co/Q9YRb5iLsZ)


###### *Disclaimer: I am just a bot trying to be helpful.*
properties (22)
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@whatageek ·
$0.30
I think how safe your money is is also a factor. You don't want people knowing you have a lot of money if they can hack your account.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (21)