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Revamping Curation Is The Way To Increase Steem Power Demand by calaber24p

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· @calaber24p ·
$945.73
Revamping Curation Is The Way To Increase Steem Power Demand
Revamping Curation Is The Way To Increase Steem Power Demand

If you haven’t been living under a rock, for the past month or so, it has been quite clear that the price of Steem has been rapidly falling. Although before the run up to $4 was most likely in a bubble and the system is in no danger of failing, as it has worked at this price before, I still believe there is a long term solution that needs to be found to fix this problem. Ned made a post yesterday talking about ideas he had, which mostly, in my opinion focused on lowering the supply entering the market, but this is only a symptom of the problem. My solution although a bit drastic addresses the problem which is a lack of incentive to purchase Steem and power up. 

http://www.chicagoartistsresource.org/sites/chicagoartistsresource.org/files/curator_1.jpg

To begin, what are the incentives now? Well the main incentive is having weight while voting, as well as getting a daily return on the Steem Power you have in the system. These might seem like adequate incentives in theory, but in practice I think we are seeing something very different. The problem right now is even with the daily interest we are getting on our Steem Power, we have still been losing money due to the price drops. The interest, which is supposed to act like inflation protection, is actually doing nothing because as long as the price is falling, people are not going to want to move their Steem dollars or Steem into Steem Power. We need to give a greater incentive to hold and purchase Steem Power that will benefit us as a community in the long run. Sure we can wait for the price to fall and have people cash out and make it cheaper to enter the system, but this still doesn’t address the underlying problem.

So what is my solution? I strongly believe we need to move the payout split to 50:50 between authors and curators from the current 75:25 it is at. I know this will be controversial, especially because many authors today, INCLUDING MYSELF, are making essentially a living off the site, but ultimately it comes down to what is best for the community. We need to look at who is adding more value to the site, the authors or the curators. Depending on who you ask their answer might be different, but in my opinion both are equally as important. One cannot survive without the other and the payouts should reflect that.

https://steemit.com/images/steemit-share.png

Curating is supposed to be a heavy incentive for people to enter the system, but the earnings from it are subpar at best. For example, I have 20,000 Steem Power and my average earnings per day is around 6 Steem Power. That means my daily return on investment is .03% a day and only around 11% a year and that is with a pretty profitable curating strategy. Sure it will technically come out to a bit higher than 11% due to compounding but it still won’t make that much of a difference. A huge selling point to me was that if you choose to curate rather than create content you will also be able to earn a sufficient amount, but no one is going to put 20,000 Steem into Steem Power that they would have to wait 2 years to pull out if the reward of waiting is not sufficient enough. Selling Steemit as a platform where the users who upvote the content are equally as valuable as the users who create the content makes users actually want to buy Steem and convert it into Steem Power. 

We should not focus on slowing down the supply that enters the market, but rather retaining and creating new users that will become active daily. Once people have upvotes that actually mean something we will see people flock to the system. Rather than just browsing reddit and upvoting, with no return, they would have a much better experience here. The majority of the people on the site are not authors but lurkers or readers and we need to cater specifically to that crowd because they will end up as the masses, should more come. Authors deserve to be paid for their work but the percentage of money that goes to payouts is a lot. 


http://www.firebellymarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/building-community-Firebelly-570x467.jpg

Like I stated before, I have been very successful and Steemit which is why I want to cut down my rewards, because if we continue in the direction we are currently going, it will become a race to the bottom , at which point everyone will leave. I strongly believe that splitting the curation rewards and author rewards equally can benefit the demand for Steem power in the long run and cause a higher amount of user retention within the system. 

-Calaber24p
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 441 others
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vote details (505)
@acidyo ·
$0.04
I think this is a good idea. Although I post here now and then and they do good, I still think curators are rewarded too little. It has totally taken away the incentive for me to want to curate properly noticing a small reward in return  for my efforts compared to my SP level.

I am glad the community are taking the steps and asking or suggesting changes, shows that its headed in the right direction over time, considering Steemit listens to its users!
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@aizensou ·
$11.89
Yes the old curation system works quite great and it's the strongest selling point of SP, IMHO. After changing to the new curation, these are a lot of people complaining and totally stop upvoting. You could find a lot of posts about that problem.
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vote details (25)
@beanz ·
I hate to admit this is probably right...

We may lose some authors over it.  But we won't lose the good ones.
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@smooth · (edited)
Minimal IMO. I really doubt the 1/3 reduction would be make-or-break for more than tiny number of cases, if any.
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@zionuziriel ·
Definitely true.
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@alexgr · (edited)
>So what is my solution? I strongly believe we need to move the payout split to 50:50 between authors and curators from the current 75:25 it is at.

I think other solutions must be found.

>For example, I have 20,000 Steem Power and my average earnings per day is around 6 Steem Power. That means my daily return on investment is .03% a day and only around 11% a year and that is with a pretty profitable curating strategy.

I have 2900 SP and my stats are:

Daily average curation rewards:
2.374 STEEM POWER
Estimated curation rewards last week
16.618 STEEM POWER:

So it goes like .08% and 30% over a year.

Note that I also spend upvotes in comments as "likes" - so it's not maximized.
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@smooth · (edited)
> So it goes like .08% and 30% over a year.

The reward pool is a fixed amount and competition will likely drive those rates down. There are only two possibilities here. One is that your voting skill is not exceptional, meaning that others will successfully compete with you and drive your returns down. The second is that your voting skill is exceptional (even if by accident) then you are being rewarded for your exceptional skill, but your experience is not typical. Even then people will still probably study what you do and eventually learn to compete successfully with you, driving your returns down.

To the extent that talent to compete with you does not exist within the system, it means increased demand to buy in and compete with you.
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@alexgr ·
I think no particular talent is needed for "covering the board" (taken from the roulette idea of filling the table with chips - but the rewarding structure here is different so my 80 cents of daily upvote value end up getting far more): https://steemit.com/curation/@alexgr/curation-strategy-covering-the-board

Try it for a day or something... use one of your regular votes, split it in 100 parts of 1%, and just upvote anything that seems upvote worthy with anything <1$ worth of upvotes before you click it (preferably <0.1$). This should work better for whales than me, because they are followed by bots.

Now, by the very fact that other whales have to vote something, you'll end up front-running them. This 1 vote split by 100 might actually give you more in curation rewards than several of your full votes. You can try variations as well, like 2-3 regular votes instead of 1 - for 200-300 votes. Or more % per vote... You can be creative if you want to try this out.
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@knircky ·
But the goal is not to create a skill voting game. The goal is to have users tell us what content they like.
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@anns ·
I'm glad You Posted this
Thx So Much!
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@anotherjoe ·
$0.02
Very interesting. For those of us who haven't been here long, we're ignorant of the fact that this was the way it used to be. I wasn't convinced from the article, maybe because I'm used to the way it is. But after reading through the comments, I can see the value in a 50/50 split. And the reduced payout for authors might be offset, at least to a degree, by more curator participation.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@blackheart304 ·
You make a very interesting point but with all the supply being eaten up demand is sure to rise, imo this situation is actually a good thing.
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@candy49 ·
$0.11
It was 50/50 and then they changed it to 75/25, partly because they felt whale curators were earning the lions share of the pot. Here is the article explaining why they were changing things:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@steemitblog/overhaul-of-curation-rewards

It is possible that there is a sweet spot between 50/50 and 75/25 - but it would take a lot of iterations to find it.
πŸ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@knircky · (edited)
Great point and thank you for the link.

I think whales making lots of money is not a problem. The issue is that the curation system does not do what it's supposed to do.

So looking at who gets how much is asking the wrong question.
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@smooth ·
Part of the reason it probably doesn't do what it is supposed to do is low participation on the lower end of the SP wealth spectrum. By cutting the pool in half it doubled the amount of SP someone has to have to earn any curation rewards at all. This excludes many people on the lower end from participating and for those that barely do make the cut, the rewards are still very small (specifically half of what they would be otherwise).
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@carlidos ·
Hmm seems kind of  a catch 22 give more to the curator who goes and reads content, compared to the actual author who spends time writing it.

But also with out powering up no one would get any rewards, the main issue is a cap on how much a post can earn- Err nvm that is centralized and censorship why not  having any post that earns more than $1000 should have that split in favor of the curator.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@calaber24p ·
This is another suggestion I thought of, but then you would get nobody upvoting posts that have no chance of making it to the cut off. Then again, we havent been seeing much of them anyway.
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@smooth ·
> Hmm seems kind of a catch 22 give more to the curator who goes and reads content, compared to the actual author who spends time writing it

It is not "the curator" it is split among dozens, hundreds, or even potentially thousands of curators.
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@ulis29k ·
forget! perhaps the dev does not recognize the value of the curator . for this reason it is that only has post trash.
properties (22)
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@christoryan ·
I very much so believe in steemit far beyond any other crypto and due to the falling price of steemit, I have not  transfered other coins into this platform yet.. Now seeing that the price is at a low, and honestley don't think it will go any lower.. Therefore does anybody agree that this is the time to move the majority of assets into steem?  
Thanks for the share :D
properties (22)
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@clevecross ·
I have had thoughts on this also. I was a bit more extreme than you lol. My thought was to have 25% of a post total by default go to author. The rest is divided up and focused amongst the comments. 

I was trying to think along the lines of "What can a human do that a bot can't?". I would say provide meaningful relevant comments to a post. I would not at all want to remove the author from the reward pool of curation though. 

If the rest was thrown into comments and votes/responses for the post wether it is supportive, a counter argument etc by post readers and/or authors defending their post. Just makes an interesting way to divide the rewards from a post.

New users are encouraged to read and make statements relative to the post and if theirs is chosen they get to earn beyond what the curation rewards currently would allot them. 

Bots, well they could take a stab at the correct answers, but I would think this seriously limits their use to game the system.
πŸ‘  , , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (4)
@burnin ·
I don't think more "good post!" spam comments is what we need.

Comments rewards are already pretty good, the incentive is already there. It also doesn't help with the SP valuation problem.
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@clevecross ·
It wouldn't be the comments themselves that get the reward, but the upvoted comments. Why I had specified the "what can humans do easily that bots cannot" line. 

good post..... would go just as unnoticed as it does today. However a well thought out counter-argument to points in the post, that has the support of votes, and maybe the authors counter post to that.... it removes the bots from the equation a bit more and still allows the author to compete for more than the 25% they get by default.
properties (22)
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@dennygalindo ·
Great idea, I posted something similar below 25 author 25 comment 50 curate but we could flip the last two.
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@cryptomancer ·
I'm not sure that changing the percentages really does enough to address the underlying problem.  I spend hours writing and formatting my weekly posts, but on average make more from curating than from my writing (which in itself is a problem but that's another topic of discussion altogether).

I feel like my close to 800 SP is a decent sized investment relative to my crypto portfolio's net worth, yet I'm still a minnow and 800 SP is a drop in the bucket compared to what I would need just for my vote to be worth a dollar.  Only a handful of people can afford to invest enough to make a decent amount from curating, and it shouldn't be that way.  You shouldn't need to invest thousands and thousands of dollars for your vote to become meaningful.

I say rather than fiddle with percentages, more needs to be done to redistribute SP away from the whales and even out the distribution, so that regular people can participate and feel they are having a meaningful impact on the community.  I know this process is ongoing to a degree with power downs, but it's a slow process and I wish something could be done to accelerate it.
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@dantheman ·
$0.14
Interesting that you suggest this as it was the original design.
πŸ‘  , , , , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (6)
@calaber24p ·
$0.14
I actually didnt even know this Dan. But I think it makes much more sense to have the split 50/50. If we dont value the lurkers and readers then there will be nobody left to stay around to actually read the content the authors are putting out. Like I said I have made a nice amount of money from being an author but im willing to give up that extra 25% cut to add more inclusion into the system. I dont want steemit to fail because it fails to retain users. I think you guys have a fantastic working system and that we are just a few tweaks and changes from making it more impacting.
πŸ‘  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@gikitiki ·
<H1> What about dynamic reward percentages? </H1>

<H2> The reputation of the author?  </H2>
For example
If someone with a reputation of 70 submits a post, the author:curation would be 50:50
If someone with a reputation of 50 submits a post, the author:curation would be 75:25

<H2> The potential Payout of the post </H2>
For example
If the potential payout of the post is > $1000, the author:curation would be 50:50
If the potential payout of the post is <= $1000, the author:curation would be 75:25
πŸ‘  , , , , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (6)
@clevecross ·
If you are open to suggestions. I ask you please read my post. @caleber24p I am sorry if I am spamming your post and will remove if requested, this is just a direction I very much want to start to see. I am not asking for your vote, but to read the idea and the reasons behind them. Thanks
https://steemit.com/steemit/@clevecross/if-it-were-mine-to-change-my-answer-to-stellabella-and-why
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@gomeravibz · (edited)
really well i have just powered up at this unbeatable price of steem right now by 1300 to my steem power to help improve on my return !! I am not a writer it would seem but i love the site and believe in what steemit will do once it gets really off the ground !! This idea would be a great help for  people like me who are here for the long run and who have invested money but get little back through the post rewards !! Please Dan consider this valid  idea  !! Would certainly be a great incentive to bring in a new breed of curators for the multitude of new posters which will i hope soon be arriving !! regards to you and your incredible team .
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@richardcrill ·
Has the change worked out? Should we not go back to the old way??
properties (22)
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@timcliff · (edited)
I think that the proposal has the right idea (making SP seem more appealing by adding more value to having it) but it is going after the wrong part of the problem. I think the main thing preventing a lot of investment is that there is not much value to have a medium sized amount of SP. If a user buys 5k worth of SP, they can only earn a few cents per day through curation, and their votes only give authors a small amount too. The solution being proposed to change curation from 25/75 to 50/50 would really only benefit the **very large** SP holders, who get most of the curation rewards from the posts. For a small sized user, I think a lot of people think "what is the point of investing 1k". If we could figure out a way to make that more attractive, I think there would be a lot more small investors ready to buy in.
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@demotruk ·
Even a doubling of curation rewards only makes SP marginally more attractive for smaller buyers. Doubling a trivial curation reward still leaves you with trivial curation. Doubling a whale's curation reward has a huge impact in absolute terms. This would make SP more valuable for whales, sucking even more money away from the rewards intended to bring in new people contributing value.
properties (22)
authordemotruk
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@dennygalindo · (edited)
$1.01
Nailed it. Content is not worth much. You can always paste from another site you run. See all the crypto news sites. Honestly it should probably be 75-25 in favor of curation. Activity and dare I say attention is what makes this a valuable platform. Every move has so far reduced activity. Hopefully the next steps will increase activity and I include curation in the list of activity.
I would do 50percent curation 25percent comments and 25 percent orginal poster if you want activity.

Every improvement to site should explain how it increases activity (reading, voting, commenting and posting)
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (9)
@beanz · (edited)
# CONTENT IS KING
properties (22)
authorbeanz
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@smooth ·
$0.08
> Every improvement to site should explain how it increases activity (reading, voting, commenting and posting)

Agree with just about everything in your comment (though not sure about 75-25). I would add, though, that "posting", at least as it currently exists in this system, is without question the _least important and widely practiced_ component of activity. Most people are not and never will be expert writers/bloggers, world travelers, etc. capable of creating amazing original content on a regular basis. We need to refocus on "activity" with a much wider base of participation.
πŸ‘  , , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (4)
@arcaneinfo ·
>  I would add, though, that "posting", at least as it currently exists in this system, is without question the least important and widely practiced component of activity.

Thank you @smooth! I joined this platform about 3 months ago and my activity here has been incredibly high, my work ethic is insane and I put much energy in something I feel promising. Not that anyone cares but if you or anyone noticed my recent productivity here it has dropped not due to the fact I don't enjoy this platform but energy giving out needs to have some type of energy coming in at some point. I have over 1500 post of course comments are included and all my comments are relative to the topic and has major value 90% of time if not all. If I had the funds to deposit massive steem I would be a human bot curator that bots would want to get rid of, I love reading and learning being  on steemit is made for me. If activity dictated rewards I would be a "Whale"
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@dennygalindo · (edited)
$0.36
Funny i almost left out  posting but thought it wasn't fair to leave it out of activity. I agree it's least important.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (12)
@will-zewe · (edited)
Yeah giving more to the curators attracting more people into steemit may just be more beneficial for the content creators in the long run anyways. I think this change is needed, curation rewards definitely need to go up for minnows, I'm not complaining mine have been decent but that's because I have 14000SP. I can only imagine how discouraging it can be to vote day after day and make fuck all day after day.
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@djm34 · (edited)
"We should not focus on slowing down the supply that enters the market,"
Indeed you didn't lol

ok by watching your wallet, I see that you are powering down, and have 0 steem on your account. 
This means you are dumping everything you can on exchange (fair enough, I'd do the same), and yet you are complaining that the interest you are getting doesn't cover the lost of value of steem.
May-be if you were stopping to dump (both SBD and Steem actually since you makes lots of post), this one would hold some more values... you can't have both, changing the curation system or not won't change anything. 

The whole curation reward, should just be removed, it is a non sense, why anyone should get a reward for liking a post he just read ? (liking the post isn't enough ? lol)

ps: you are very appreciated by the badgers (partial voting list), hope you'll get as much success with the rabbits ;) 

 badger3106, badger3146, badger3134, deanliu, badger3164, rimantas, badger3172, badger3145, bue-witness, badger311, bue, badger315, mini, badger3195, healthcare, badger3111, jl777, boy, badger3156, ballinconscious, daniel.pan, badger3154, proto, bunny, yefet, badger3112, moon, badger3181, helen.tan, badger3104, cybergirl, badger3144, badger3143, badger3183, badger3136, badger3115, badger3176, badger3123, badger3125, badger3131, badger3192, badger3184, badger3124, badger3161, badger3175, badger312, badger3166, badger3174, badger3103, badger3107, badger3185, badger3171, badger313, jesta, allianz, badger3102, badger3186, badger3162, badger3141, badger3133, badger3114, badger314, badger3196, badger3163, badger3193, badger3135, badger3173, badger3142, badger3105, badger3132, badger3182, ruscion, badger3116, badger3122, richardcrill, electronicarts, badger318, badger3126, superfreek, roland.haynes, badger3194, penthouse, badger3113, badger316, badger3155, badger317, badger3151, badger3101, badger3121, badger3165, badger3152, badger3153, blender, badger319, badger3191,
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@englishtchrivy ·
@calaber24p  Finally, someone with a solution to offer.
Thank you for writing this, not everybody is aware of what's going on 
and you've just enlightened me how things really work here percentage wise.
Kudos for being  one concern soul to the investment we are actually in ;)
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@expedition ·
Interesting that you post :)
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@fishborne ·
$0.05
What about 40 % to author,  40  % to curators and 20% to the top 10 comments (based on votes, of course) ? 

In this way commenting will be the next game, not posting. 
And, IMHO, commenting =activity.
Activity=steemit will thrive.
πŸ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@nubchai ·
Commenting seems to be lumped in with author/content creation right now.
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@full-steem-ahead ·
I don't believe a 50/50 split is the right way to go to increase incentives for long term investment in SP. I agree with others who have said more effort is required to create posts than to comment / curate them, thus the 75/25 is reasonable.

Although I curate far more than I author currently, and I would like my curation rewards to increase, I do not agree with the 50/50 proposal presented here. There are other options within my control I can pursue to increase my curation rewards besides lowering author rewards.
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@james-show · (edited)
The min needed is 80:20 split- curation/author rewards... otherwise the system will fail fast due to no demand to buy Steem (and power up).
[More Here](https://steemit.com/steemit/@james-show/why-i-want-to-short-steem-beyond-trading-part2-08-23-2016)
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@fat-like-buddha ·
Who is going to continue writing and creating the content at that rate? 

Here is a general guideline of what freelance writers online can earn:

- Article feature writing: $40-$122 per hour, or $.20-30 per word
- Reprint articles: $20-$1,500 per project, or $.10-1.50 per word
- Magazine column: $75-$2,500 per project, or $.37-2.50 per word
- Ghostwriting articles: $30-$200 per hour, or $.60-10 per word
- Arts review: $60-$95 per hour, or $.08-1.20 per word
- Book reviews: $25-$900 per project, or $.15-1.50 per word
- Rewriting: $20-125 per hour, or $50 per page
- Content editing: $25-125 per hour, or $.06-.16 per word

I know from experience from years of writing online now, that the starting point for a new writer is right around .03-.05 cents per word. Which would put a payout of around 50 bucks or so for a 1k word post. 

What I'm failing to understand about Steemit right now is do they want this to be just a mass social media website? Do they want it to be a website as a "to go" to website for quality content? 

Changes reducing author rewards hurts the majority of the writers, the handful who are always getting upvotes regardless of their post will still go on, just making less. But the majority of writers are not even getting noticed or getting rewarded even close to the rates above. 

What incentive does a writer have to power up a measly .56 they just made from a post they spent a full day writing and creating? Or where is the incentive to keep writing with payouts that low? 

There are probably writers here that do not write to earn, but I would suggest the majority do.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@ats-david · (edited)
Exactly right. The problem isn't the percentage of rewards going to the author. The problem is terrible curating results largely due to bots and trying to pile on whale trends. Actual writers pretty much avoid this place. We see the mediocre and relatively awful content atop the trending page on a daily basis, but those who keep putting it there don't care...because it's not about quality. For most of the voters, it's only about gaming and getting paid.

Changing the rewards to give more money to bots and gamers won't resolve any issues related to bringing in quality creators and bringing up the value of the site based on the content.

There doesn't seem to be much incentive for good writers to be here and lowering payouts to writers won't improve that. It seems to me that we can have either really good content or really good curation gaming, but not both.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@james-show ·
$0.36
We agree on the end results, not on how we get there. And I am 100% positive that you get this one wrong. The problem is the money in the Steem system do not grow on trees. For the money to come there should be solid logical financial reason to purchase steem (and power up). There is  zero reason to do this right now. [more detailed  explanation here](https://steemit.com/steemit/@james-show/why-i-want-to-short-steem-beyond-trading-part2-08-23-2016). Demand for steem from curators will do 2 things - increase the price of Steem (and so the author rewards) and diversify the curation in the hands of thousands of people (as oppose to the current 100 or so whales. Whales qualified to do curation mainly by being at the right time at the write place and or being  software developers ...)
And no there is no need for the writers buy steem and power up. Their are what you yourself described them - hired help wanting their $X per word/article for their talent and effort. Actually the current system trying to make them long term 'investors' in the system by paying them half of their pay in steem power is quite ridiculous in itself. (paying them all they earn in SD is a way to effectively double their pay).
So to sum it up - writers will get as much as possible, but that depends on the money coming in the system. The pure desire "They should be paid more" is not gonna increase their pay.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (13)
@jesta ·
$1.48
I appreciate the discussion, but I don't believe curation should be 50:50 with the  way curation currently exists. Curation is a bots game currently, and that would have to be changed first (with the proposed 0.14 changes perhaps), for me to get behind an idea like this. 

Right now we have bots that are powering down millions of vests a week and regaining the entire balance powered down simply by curating. This won't stop them, this will only make that behavior more popular. 

I could see 50:50 *maybe* being viable is the changes in 0.14 go through, but right now there's push back on that as well. 

Also - writing is harder than curation, why should it be an equal split?
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (21)
@bdavid ·
its not an equal split. 50% to one person compared to 50% divided between 400?
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@jesta · (edited)
It's an equal split between the author and the curators (plural). I never meant to imply it was a direct equivalence between all curators and the author :P
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@carlidos ·
Exactly writing is much harder than reading the content.
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@bdavid ·
$0.56
Not all the time, have you seen some of the shit on here?
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (14)
@dennygalindo ·
This is only because the rewards are so low only a bot can justify doing it. Encouraging commenting would also be a way to  improve activity. I still think bots would be disadvantaged if you got more curation rewards for posts that were above "consensus" for a poster. Consensus is based on posters history rep score etc. all trailing info. Bots are not good at reason and curating hence Bo's don't vote for newbies.
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@liondani · (edited)
$0.50
> Also - writing is harder than curation, why should it be an equal split?

because it is harder to put **hard earned money** to SP !!!
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (12)
@smooth · (edited)
$1.53
> Right now we have bots that are powering down millions of vests a week and regaining the entire balance powered down simply by curating

I've seen this claim repeatedly made. It appears false. My power down rate is currently 20K/week.  I'm making 3K/week with a combination of light botting and manual curation. @berniesanders is making 4K/week. @wang is apparently the most successful bot relative to SP and is making 2K/week while powering down 4K/week.

Seems there should be snopes page on this :)

More importantly though, voting for curation rewards is a competitive activity. There is always someone who is going to be the best at it. Looking at that one individual during one particular time window is not a good way to assess the effect of the mechanism across the overall system. This is no difference from balance in games. There might be a few excellent players with very high K/D ratios (imperfections of that metric noted), but that fact alone does not imply the game is unbalanced at all.

> Also - writing is harder than curation, why should it be an equal split?

The rewards for reading are split among potentially hundreds or thousands of voters.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (24)
@clayop ·
$2.00
@smooth You are the No. 1 VESTS gainer last month without posting any. Increase of curation reward will surely increase your earning but it will discourage many good writers IMHO.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (11)
@djm34 ·
$0.49
the "game"/"money making scheme" is nice to those who benefit from it, but I thought steemit was a social media, meaning where people interact. 
What good (to the author/community) does it do to the upvoting of something no one read ?
Because a bot upvoting, means just that, no human read the post. It was upvoted based over criteria which have nothing to do with interest (mostly based on author rep or stuff like that). 

And it will be upvoted for the same reason by most of the upvoters, curation reward not because the article is good or was a good read...  In terms of social media it is in my opinion a fail
πŸ‘  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (8)
@jesta ·
$0.32
> @wang is apparently the most successful bot relative to SP and is making 2K/week while powering down 4K/week.

That's probably the best example, which proves it is can be true. Just because @wang is the only one who can accomplish this right now (that we know of), doesn't mean everyone won't be able to in the future. How does that make the statement false?

The entire reason I mentioned bots is that if we went to a 50:50 split, it would make it even more possible to power down and completely regenerate that value simply by running a bot. @wang as an example would jump immediately from making 2k/week to 4k/week, which is what he powers down. 

I feel like you and I both play the "devils advocate" roll a lot ;)
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@ntomaino ·
$0.03
you are an exception in that you are a whale that actually cares about curation. i think the biggest problem with Steem currently is that curation power wasn't optimally distributed and those that have it either don't want the power or aren't well equipped to have it: https://steemit.com/steem/@ntomaino/optimally-distributing-curation-power
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@owdy ·
$0.31
I'm pretty sure this was the case about a month ago.  For at least a couple of weeks, @wang was making over 6k SP/week when he was still voting at 14 mins.  Ever since he cut down on his upvote delay, the bot game has been a lot more challenging for everyone.
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@timcliff ·
$0.08
>The rewards for reading are split among potentially hundreds or thousands of voters.

I do agree that a 50/50 split would make the curation 'game' more appealing, and would provide additional incentive for users to power up. My issue with it is this though:

Even though the curation reward is being split amongst hundreds of thousands of voters, it is really the big whales who are getting 99% of the curation rewards. Even a good dolphin curator with 5-10k worth of SP who maximizes their curation by somehow voting on posts that all get upvoted by whales, will only see a very tiny portion of the curation rewards from the posts. 

The "little guy" curator will still not have much incentive to power up, because even with increased curation rewards - their portion is so minuscule that it won't really matter. It seems like in the end it will help the rich get/stay richer, but offer very little to average users who can not afford to buy in 100k worth of SP.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@joele ·
I agree.
Also selling advertising space (banner & text) 
and add discussion service ( reddit style) so we can have more participation.
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@jrcornel ·
You make some great points here and I agree! Will that be enough of an incentive though to get people to power up? What if we do both? Slow down the supply and up the curation rewards?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@knircky · (edited)
I think this is a bad idea.

Curating is already skewed to a strategy. I.e. The best curators are bots. If we rewards curation more it now makes sense for people to invest steem and then curate with bots. This will lead to the site being run by bots.

The problem with this is that fewer people will vote for things they like and more for what is profitable.

Steem is going to be successful if good content, that is content that people like will be attracted and visible to people. This is what will attract more people to the site. Which will in turn increase the price of steem.

We need to give people a reason to write great content on the site not make it possible to make money with bots.
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@knircky ·
I used to make 1-2 SP a day curating. Now I make 4-6. I vote without reading any content and don't care about the content. Every few hours when I have a free minute I look what has the most potential that has been created about 30 min ago. That's what I vote for.

I'm sure I have no idea what I am doing, but I was able to vote with a strategy vs for what I like and increase my reward tremendously.

That is horrible. It accomplishes the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
You have 11000 SP. So yes you can make a little bit, say 4-6 per day via bad curation. You are apparently doing quite a bit worse than @alexgr who commented elsewhere on this thread about making about 5/day, except that he only has 3000 SP. So your strategy is actually not very good. I don't know how you assess the posts with the "most potential" without reading any of them. Apparently you can't, which is not surprising.

Curation is competitive. If you continue to curate poorly, you will make a little, sure, but you will fall behind other curators who do a better job, and over time their earnings and accumulated SP will greatly exceed yours. That is exactly how it should be.
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@krnel ·
I highly disagre with 50/50.

I create content, og high quality. Sometimes it get a whale, sometimes it doesn't . It hard work, and I create the content. It would not be worth anything without voters true. But that's not the case for curation, to "make money".

I also go through all the "new" posts each day pretty much, and I curate. Why? Because I want Steemit to succeed. Not for the payouts from curation, because that is essentially 0 from my SP position.

If people want [Steemit to succeed](https://steemit.com/steemit/@krnel/steemit-succeeds-if-we-make-it-succeed), they need to devote themselves more to help it succeed. People who create the content create the quality or lack of quality on the platform. 50/50 is not good.

Take care. Peace.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@clevecross ·
I think there's a line somewhere. Top posts are overpaid (public opinion) and curation, as it exists today, offers nothing for new users. The author may take a dip in the amount they receive, but if it is balanced by more eyeballs, more votes as well as more users it will find a balance I would think.
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@dennygalindo ·
$0.32
Where else can you write $1000 article without giving up copyright? Way overpaid.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kuriko ·
lol so whales who are already doing 400 steem power a day in curation will be doing 800 and will be able to cashout even harder? The biggest problem of steemit is that curation reward is heavily influenced by your steem power, so the riches gets richer. Unless that change, do not expect people to jump in and start buying steem power. Right now its whales cashing out on people believing in their future. Ill wait for steem to fall near .1$ a coin
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@lennex ·
Meh Curation doesn't pay for me I get more followers by commenting and up voting but all in all nothing in the form of Steem. writing post gets me very little more because I am quite horrible at the word game. 50/50, maybe more like 60/40. Maybe add a penalty for idle votes not cast above a certain percentage. maybe other actions offset it in case you just don't think any article deserves a vote from you at the moment. I didn't read the white paper which I should and will but does the Steem power you hold give your articles more buoyancy?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@linkback-bot-v0 ·
<div>  <p>  This post has been linked to from another place on Steem.  </p>  <ul>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@algimantas/wise-works-from-smooth"> Wise words from @smooth </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@algimantas">  @algimantas </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@clevecross/curation-why-it-needs-to-change"> Curation: Why It Needs To Change </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@clevecross">  @clevecross </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@shaka/proposal-my-first-link-post-and-why-i-believe-steemit-needs-more-of-them"> [Proposal] My first link-post and why I believe Steemit needs more of them! </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@shaka">  @shaka </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemsquad/@shadowspub/thursday-ramble-through-steemit-notes-on-my-favourite-reads-sept-8th"> Thursday Ramble Through Steemit -- Notes on My Favourite Reads Sept 8th </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@shadowspub">  @shadowspub </a>     </li>      </ul>  <p> Learn more about  <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@ontofractal/steem-linkback-bot-v0-3-released">    linkback bot v0.3</a>   </p>   <p>Upvote if you want the bot to continue posting linkbacks for your posts. Flag if otherwise.   Built by @ontofractal</p></div>
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@luminousvisions · (edited)
$0.02
I have 2k SP and I very much agree with you

first of all, I rather have 50% of a lot than 75% off a little bit ... more actual users is more important right now than anything else

secondly, the curators share among many, hundreds sometimes ... and yes, right now that's usually so minuscule that I can't be bothered to make an extra effort ... I only vote for posts I actually read, but I don't go looking for posts that might trend ... it's not worth the effort

this while I actually spend most of my votes on people's comments, be it comments on my own posts or replies to my comments ... I vote for a lot of comments

this while right now, the best thing to do for me would be to vote on my own posts and comments ... not that I do that, but that's how the incentive works out now
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vote details (4)
@owdy · (edited)
$0.38
I think you have the wrong idea here. Steem going down isn't the problem, the problem is that we let it go up too quickly.

Here's what people need to understand: your blogs aren't worth what you're getting paid, and your work as a curator isn't worth what you're getting paid either.

The biggest issue with that is that people who thought these payouts could last are/will be disappointed when we return to an equilibrium.

Sure, your blog might get paid a bit more here per reader than on other platforms, since there's no company taking a cut of the revenue it creates, but when it reaches an equilibrium, it won't be anywhere close  to what it is right now (at least with the current userbase). *That equilibrium could be an order of magnitude lower.*

Curation shouldn't be seen as a way to make money. It should be a small + to using the platform. 

"You've curated content for a year? Here, have an extra $20 for your work on the platform." 

Now that might be closer to what we should expect. If you're looking at it this way, no increase in % given to curation will make this appealing to investors.     The reason for powering up should be influence, and let me tell you that influence on a platform with ~10k active users isn't worth  all that much. 

One more point, people will power down until their holdings match what they'd be willing to invest in the platform (say if they'd just heard about it).  A lot of "Steem millionnaires" will want to drop their stake down to a tiny fraction of what it is right now.
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vote details (14)
@smooth · (edited)
Agree with most everything you said, but I still believe curation rewards should be 50%. Even if that only makes the difference between $10 for the year or $20, that difference still matters.

It also does make an important difference to the value of STEEM because it determines the rate of dilution. Content rewards go to authors (successful bloggers for the most part) and dilute SP holders as a class. Curation rewards come back to SP holders as a class. The change that cut curation rewards in half (actually more) had a significant impact on the value of STEEM, even if not specifically cutting the value in half (because of the remaining value from influence; also long term potentially network access)
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vote details (1)
@owdy ·
$0.91
Alright I see your point. Might not make a huge difference per investor, but as a whole it does.

IMO curators are also much more likely to keep their Steem powered up than authors, so it *would* make sense to have a larger part of that pie go to them.
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vote details (12)
@positivesteem ·
Content is what drives Steemit and authors should be better rewarded. A sharing of 75%/25% in favor of authors should be considered.
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@publicworker ·
This way, @smooth will game the system.
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@roland.haynes ·
First, thanks for your post and unselfish attitude. That is priceless and is one of the qualities of great contributors to the platform.
However, without a very innovative technical initiative to deal with bots, you still would not arrive at the proper balance required to propel the platform into the mainstream of the social space.
Producing consistently high quality content that would be of interest to a broad audience of non-crypto enthusiasts is very hard work but is needed to in order for Steemit to draw users into its space.
Without sufficient rewards for good authors the platform will not be sustainable.
The definition of what is a good author requires a clear vision of who the current target audience is for Steemit and an understanding of what is mandatory for them to join and engage with the community.
In my opinion, the curation author split is not the critical factor for immediate growth of Steemit. I have seen numerous posts suggesting pieces of the puzzle. Now, we need to quickly assemble a combination of the bests small bits and execute them as quickly as possible taking into consideration the issues of testing, etc.
Better communication regarding what is coming and why would also go a long way towards building a perception that Steemit is the best social media platform today.
Steemit has to make sense to new users, existing users, past present and future investors.
That my friends, is a very tall order which I am hoping the community can achieve. It needs everyone involved and committed to a clearly defined set of objectives.
This is not a job for a few at the top. It is, in my opinion, a task that can only be done with a concerted and enthusiastially  engaged community.
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@shadowspub · (edited)
$0.35
Hello @calaber24p, I just stopped by to let you know that I included this post in my favourite reads on my Steemit Ramble today.  Seems you've hit a nerve with this post, I read it just after you posted and an hour later it is going crazy. I'll be back to read the comments more thoroughly. Nice work. 

[The post can be found here](https://steemit.com/steemsquad/@shadowspub/thursday-ramble-through-steemit-notes-on-my-favourite-reads-sept-8th)
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vote details (12)
@shaka ·
Tuning the curation set screws alone will not suffice to achieve what is most important now: significant growth of the platform!
What I firmly believe is that it is not enough to focus on how to curate good content within Steemit. **We need to think about how to use Steemit to curate the Internet!**
I therefore propose to establish at least a channel in which link posting is encouraged. If Steemit proves to be a place that rewards the surfacing of great content in the Internet this would have the potential to attract a lot people beyond the blogosphere. And we need to have a lot more people here! No way to even maintain a three figure million market cap without millions of users.
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@smooth · (edited)
$0.43
I support this. I opposed the change from 50% to 25% for various reasons including simply rewarding voters more. 

I stated at the time (and this can be found in the old #witness slack logs) that after switching from 50/50 to 75/25  (or even more so the 90/10 that was thrown out as a trial balloon at one point), the asymmetry creates a natural incentive to switch it back. That's because going from 25 to 50 _doubles_ curation rewards (and earnings for all of those voting, large and small) while it reduces content rewards by _only 33%_. The farther you get from 50/50 the more leverage there is in the effectiveness of rewarding that segment of the user base by moving back toward 50/50.

There are other effects from shifting too much of rewards to content, basically none desirable, unless the objective is to attract extremely successful bloggers who need a large paycheck to be interested. For everyone else, extremely large content rewards are basically useless. (Even for successful bloggers, the 50% increase that comes from 50->75 is not a game changer.)

Good post and thank you for the original thought, since you were apparently unaware that the original design worked this way.
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vote details (6)
@steemrollin ·
Questions:
-Do you think big investors who want to buy in want to curate?  If so what %?
-Do you think existing stakeholders who are selling do so because of a lack of curation rewards?  If so what %?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@nubchai ·
Good question. I can't give you %s. But steemit and steem need more positive news to attract big investors and move the price back up. Right now a big investor might recoup a part of their investment by curation and writing. A post by someone well-known attracts whales and generates big payouts. It's a way to get repaid and keep the original investment.
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@owdy ·
I'd say close to 0% in both categories.
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@quinneaker ·
Very good questions!!!
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@telos ·
I see it a little differently... I don't think the split needs to be changed, I think something needs to be done about the bots. I've been meaning to do the math and write up a post about it, but my observation is that bots vote very early. That is, within a couple minutes, a popular author will have dozens of votes already... and sure, those bots are getting smaller rewards because they vote early, but they don't care. More importantly, what *also* happens is that each one of those bots lowers the rewards for anyone else who follows because the first votes get a higher percentage of the reward. 

So if 10 bots have voted at 2 minutes, and you vote at 30 minutes you'll still get a small reward because the 10 people ahead of you got the majority.

I haven't been able to think of a good solution yet really, but I think the key is limiting the bots' influence more than anything.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@the-ivor ·
The incentives have been a trainwreck so I agree, lets try to reward all the participants that add value. I often see as much value in a brilliant reply as the OP's blog post itself. It should get a hefty reward too because it obviously takes time and thought, and itself is a reward to a blog. 

Merely upvoting shouldn't get much reward if other than repulation because of bots. But upvoted replies? Hell yes!
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@timcliff ·
Curious your thoughts on this idea:
<a href="https://steemit.com/curation/@timcliff/human-vs-bot-curators-introducing-human-competition-into-the-equation-allow-whales-to-delegate-curation-power-to-dolphins-and">Human vs. Bot Curators - Introducing Human Competition into the Equation - Allow Whales to Delegate Curation Power to Dolphins and Minnows</a>
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@tmp-sg ·
...and then you have people who just want to post and not have to figure out how to operate any kind of complicated contraption. That's where the strengths of 'social' sites like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram lie. If Steemit is going to be exclusive to Pulitzer prize winning authors, stoic curators, super intellectuals, genius mathematicians, or brilliant banker types, I think I, and some others I've noticed on here have stumbled into the wrong web.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dlLxMYQSFjQ/SaWNMd1G_UI/AAAAAAAAAQA/1wwRhYEV1ao/s400/giant-tandem-bicycle.jpg
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@ats-david ·
>If Steemit is going to be exclusive to Pulitzer prize winning authors, stoic curators, super intellectuals, genius mathematicians, or brilliant banker types, I think I, and some others I've noticed on here have stumbled into the wrong web.

Have you noticed the trending page? That's clearly not the case. I suppose it could happen in the future, but not with the current system in place. None of those types of writers/investors have a need to come to Steemit. They can do what they do on other platforms and make more money, reach a larger audience, and/or still find good talent to support. 

And keep in mind that - if the user base grows as initially anticipated - payouts across the board will be lower. So, in the long-run, this site will need to cater to people who just want an alternative social media outlet. It needs to be attractive for many of the same reasons as the other platforms are. "Making money" isn't going to be the main draw for the average person. And the more complicated the system is, the less likely they'll be to invest their time to figure it out. The functions here need to be intuitive.
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@fat-like-buddha ·
Says who? I am still waiting for a answer on what the founders want here. Right now we just have everyone elses perspective of what "they" think Steemit is.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@toxic ·
$0.04
I agree that some curators should receive more for their efforts. I said some because not all curation is good. Automatically distinguishing between the good and bad and paying out proportionally would be a difficult task to solve.
πŸ‘  
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@treeleaves ·
http://k0in.com/zz.png
It seems curation may soon improve.  Also, the reputation system may improve.  Despite all this, the total value depends on accomplishing a purpose or many useful purposes.  

My purpose is to promote a <a href="k0in.com">better worldwide _koin_</a>.  If I had more money I would maybe put $20,000 into steem to get influence and coordinate with like-minded individuals.  This desire to participate in meaningful discussion and action is where the money comes from.

What's your purpose?

But by actively contributing and adding unique solutions to difficult problems, I hope to find friends and earn influence.  Right now many good posts are not being noticed, but maybe an improvement in wealth-distribution would help this.

I'm sorry, but I foresee that Steem will get down to at least 20,000,000 before rising to take its rightful place.  But who cares, it's still a great place to study, innovate and improve blockchain.

Is this a Potemkin village?  Perhaps yes, maybe all of cryptocurrency is.  See my link above for making blockchain what it can be.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@trev · (edited)
Are the rewards for voting being too little really the problem? You don't earn money from upvoting on reddit, facebook, youtube, etc. and yet those sites are incredibly valuable. I'm not sure curation rewards are necessary at all. 

If people are only joining steem to earn money, then it'll only be a game for investors which will lead downhill.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@lennex ·
$0.35
Money is the initial incentive. People will stay for the community and the fact that there earning money will make this whole endeavor not seem like a total waste of time like all those other site's you just named plus people right better stuff when there being paid and of course less trolls under the bridge because the majority hates trolls.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (12)
@smooth · (edited)
Copying the model of those sites means virtually guaranteed failure. They are already established and it would be an incredibly hard uphill battle to build a user base comparable to reddit doing the same thing when reddit already exists. The unique selling proposition of Steem is its ability to reward users.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@knircky · (edited)
Agree. This is key! I it's about rewarding users, and rewarding them for things that make steem valuable.

My issue with the curation is that I think it does not accomplish this well.

Who gets how much is relevant but not as important as making sure everyone, curators and posters get rewarded for creating value. The current curation rewards bad behavior and as such reduces value. We need to make sure the rules are changed so good behavior is rewarded first before worrying about who gets how much.
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@trevorlyman ·
Hi Calaber24p - I looked over your post history and noticed that you made next to nothing for most of your posts and then one day everything changed.  Did you buy steem or something?  Or did you just get upvoted on a post by a whale and that started it all off?  I'm still a newbie, trying to learn this thing.  Thanks!
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@vonpetro ·
i find it all still kinda confusing.
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