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Why I Flag ozchartart by dantheman

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· @dantheman ·
Why I Flag ozchartart
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</div>
Some people have noticed that I have been flagging @ozchartart's posts.  I originally started flagging with only one of my two accounts, but the persistence of other collusive whales in up-voting this content has forced me to express myself more firmly. I don't like to flag accounts because I feel these kinds of "fights" are not good for the platform, but I also know that allowing what I consider to be abusive, collusive voting to continue is even worse.

<center>***This post represents my personal opinion and does not represent the opinion of Steemit, Inc. I feel that as a founder of the platform I should have equal rights to vote as everyone else who acquired a large stake by mining early on.***</center>

We recently ran some statistics and found that @ozchartart was the number one blogger by author rewards in the past month. Every single day he posts 3 or 4 times and every single time he posted he would get $70 to $120 per post totaling over $300 per day.  This is far more than any other blogger.

What is more, I have reason to believe that @ozchartart is a friend of some of the major whales who up vote his posts.  What is telling is that it isn't @ozchartart who is acting out by flagging every single one of my comments into oblivion, it is the whale(s) that vote for him.  

## Content Quality and Value
This is a very subjective issue when voting on an individual post. When in doubt I tend to let things slide because I recognize that other people may value things differently than me. Every unique post deserves some time in the sun.

The problem I have with @ozchartart is that he has been producing the same content for almost 6 months and prior to my flagging attempts was pulling in more money each month than anyone else.   I ignored his posts because they had the "appearance of substance" due to length, images, etc. I also figured there was some good trading discussion stimulated by it.

## A closer look at Content

After a while I grew tired of scrolling past his posts multiple times per day every day. He was dominating the trending page. So I decided to dig deeper.  What I discovered is that 95% of every post could be completely automated.  The 5% that couldn't be automated involved one paragraph describing a chart and drawing a few unlabeled lines. As a programmer I also know that much the remaining 5% were text descriptions were formulaic, meaning that a computer could generate the text and simply substitute in different numbers on different days.  Even the charts could be automatically annotated by software simply by looking at the data. All told, it would be a trivial computer science project to replace 99% of the content.

## Relative Value to Other Content
In my humble opinion, almost every single post and comment on the site represented more real value than @ozchartart was providing. A down vote on this content is just a shortcut for up voting everything else. In terms of time, energy, and proof-of-engagement every comment longer than a few sentences is of higher value.

## Double Standards 

Some whales have frequently flagged high profile bloggers such as myself, @dollarvigilante and even @krnel.  The justification for their flags were that "they posted too much and got too many votes".  It is clear that they feel justified in periodically voting against these legitimate posts containing much more involved content.  

My response to such criticism was to decline payout on the majority of my posts. I respectfully request that @ozchartart do the same.  

## Coordinated Campaign of Sock Puppets 

Many people may not realize it, but one of the whales supporting @ozchartart, is and has been troll from the very beginning. He is prone to outbursts and rage flagging legitimate content. Many have witnessed his childish antics in slack and other places.

I have been tolerating his behavior because he is a whale. In my opinion he has proven himself to be a bad whale.  A whale who profiting by promoting @ozchartart and who is selling out.  

## Propose a Truce 
I will no longer flag @ozchartart if other whales stop up voting for him.  I think we are civilized enough to agree to disagree on this particular issue. 

## Censorship!!
The trolls and spammers are always the first to cry censorship.  They will say outrageous things in order to defend their gravy train. I have no problem with his "content" and would never dream of flagging it if it declined rewards.  What we have here is a legitimate difference of opinion between two whales.  

When we both express our contrary opinions on a particular piece of content things are fair.  What is not acceptable is to take this disagreement outside the voting booth and start throwing a tantrum by flagging my comments that weren't even getting any meaningful payout. Whether you believe @ozchartart adds or removes value, it is clear that burying my actual comments is abusive and taking value away from the platform. 

## Conclusion 

Steem is a platform where everyone gets to vote their stake. We know that there are people who will attempt to gain every advantage if it profits them, even at the expense of the whole. They will claim that *I* am the one attempting to game the rules to secure an even larger stake for *me and my friends*, but this is mere projection.  I created Steem to give it away. I designed a system to intentionally include as many people as possible. I have no need for more stake and am actively giving away much of the STEEM I do have to fund development and free account signups.  

Lets not make this about any individual post.  Lets look at the past 6 months of unchallenged milking of the platform.  Leaving these actions unchallenged will only make the abusers stronger.

Hopefully we can move on to more productive activity.

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vote details (774)
@ahab ·
I love this post.
I say, which of you have the heart and the steel resolve to help me hunt whales?
We need harpoons, we need boats, we need crewmen!
Bring something to protect your legs.
👍  ,
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@mobydick ·
$0.05
Hey... don't start none, won't be none.
👍  ,
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@ahab ·
^^And we can start by hunting that leg-eating sonofabitch.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@airmike ·
The good thing is, that you did this action. 
The bad thing is it is too late. 

I wrote an article about this type of spamming 5 months ago. 

https://steemit.com/stats/@airmike/lifecycle-of-spam-on-steemit-quantitative-analysis

I think that most of the whales knew about this type of behaviour. Some of the whales were involved. Main reason why I left steemit is tolerating of parasitic behaviour.
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@anotherjoe ·
$5.33
Thanks for posting your thoughts on this, Dan. The flagging without comment was disturbing to many. Of course, to see the flagging of your comments was more disturbing and clearly asinine.
As a founder and a whale, as well as a user/member, you have to wear more hats than most of us. It's a balancing act that is easy to forget and difficult for most to empathize with. Many will hold you to a higher standard than they even hold themselves, simply because of the hats you wear.
Keep it real, open and honest. Integrity always wins in the long run.
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vote details (5)
@jamesbrown · (edited)
Good points, @anotherjoe .

Sometimes it's difficult to visualize being in the other's shoes.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@araki ·
I admire your protective attitude for steemit community 
never been a fan of flagging but totally agree with your concept and what you did .
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@ash ·
that account is just spamming. I did not even realize they're still doing it (got them on mute)
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@ats-david · (edited)
$0.02
Another way to mitigate the effects of the "collusion" would be to upvote more with your accounts. Maybe you can check out my latest nature/photography post and get started there? :)
👍  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@dantheman ·
$0.10
I have been up voting more with my accounts and recently started up voting content with @dan. I greatly prefer to reward the good than punish the bad.  Unfortunately, game theory requires me to do both or good guys lose.
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vote details (4)
@ats-david ·
Understandable. And I'm glad that the accounts are being used for upvoting. In my opinion, the flag wars don't do a whole lot of good, but it's your stake and their stake, so you can all do what you want with it. At some point, however, both sides will need to evaluate whether or not what they are doing is beneficial in the long-run. And I don't mean "beneficial for the platform," because that's something that's not easily measured or measurable. 

Wasting voting power on up-voting and down-voting the same content day after day results in nothing but lost potential for both "investing" sides. Surely, an agreement can be reached that doesn't involve perpetual up- and down-voting. I just don't know how such an agreement can be reached. Eventually, one side will just likely give up and move on. If that happens, my posts will still be there waiting for the extra upvoting power. :)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stellabelle ·
am I a "good guy"?
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@daveks ·
@ats-david [A walk in the Park: My Journey through images volume 11](https://steemit.com/life/@ats-david/a-walk-in-the-park-my-journey-through-images-volume-ii)
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@ats-david ·
Is that from the future? I'm only on Volume 2 right now! How long have I been sleeping?!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@senseiteekay ·
haha, probably the smoothest comment in this thread!
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@ats-david ·
Well, technically, @smooth's would be the smoothest by default. But I'll take a close second-place smoothness.
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@bacchist · (edited)
I agree with you about ozchart's posts. There have also been incidents where he vindictively flagged users that he felt were encroaching on his territory or mocking him (myself included).
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@fyrstikken ·
me too :) - OZ is a dick.
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@the-ego-is-you ·
Showing your maturity again I see. Perhaps he is, but then so have you been many times.
👎  
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@the-ego-is-you ·
Care to link, if it's not been altered since?
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@bacchist ·
https://steemit.com/deepspace/@bacchist/i-m-no-chart-expert

That is the flagged post...
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@beanz ·
What I find funny is that @ozchartart has been being flagged for many weeks now and only when it gets promoted $50 everybody got their backs up about it.  Nobody even noticed because clearly from the views of the post very few people if any retain value from the posts.
👍  
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@beanz ·
The meme is hilarious by the way. 
*(attempting to lighten the mood)*
👍  
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@bhavnapatel68 ·
It is never too late to get recognized.
👍  
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@bleujay ·
$5.55
Thank you for posting @dantheman.  

Your objective and reasoned approach will hopefully bring in many readers.  Your explanation is appreciated...though one is not required....which makes it all the more welcome.

If one may add to the dialogue...it did seem that @ozchartart was bringing to the platform content not found elsewhere....however just as @steemsports ran too many posts so it seems that @ozchartart was doing it as well in a different way with repetitive content.

Your post has been given a hearing and the information assessed.

  The trouble for members of Steemit who make little to nothing from their posts....is that the idea of using ones vote to upvote the higher reward posts in order to increase their own reward is a way of making ones time on Steemit worthwhile until ones own posts gain a viewership.  However looking under the hood is never pretty and for this bleujay thanks you.  Truth is harsh....it takes a leader with moral courage to put it out there and let the people decide.  

Your post the other day Blogging for Money...is the view taken by bleujay in that this is a long term endeavor which requires the 3D's of success..Desire...Dedication...and Determination.

Wishing you all the best.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@bluehorseshoe · (edited)
I just always assumed he was part of the steemit "good 'ol boys club".
Anyone can go to sites like www.tradingview.com, etc... and make charts.
I want to see how you were able to read the charts and turn a profit off them.
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@the-ego-is-you ·
Exactly. On the other hand many pundits don't provide any more value than he does and some people just want to see a chart. Who am I to say they don't value it? I just wouldn't vote for it myself unless I found it extra relevant for some reason.

I also respect anyones right to downvote ("flag") and have myself included a line in my profile description, to explain my voting and downvoting patterns.
👍  
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@bluehorseshoe · (edited)
I agree with your statement. My concern is it appears to me if he takes a picture of his morning bowel movement and posts that it will get 300+ votes($$$) and only 30+ views of the chart/movement, correct?
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@codydeeds ·
This is great! Nothing like some good authentic drama to generate more interest in the platform. I am all about free market but clearly this is not that yet. I am happy to get a better reward generation for my well thought out well written posts than by somebody auto generating content purely out of greed. Intent is very important in this topic, was his intent to provide the community with solid helpful content or to make a quick buck?
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@the-ego-is-you ·
Maybe it was both? Often, the best way to make easy money is to provide value. 
Either way, I don't personally see much value in his posts but maybe others do.
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@complexring ·
$0.12
> What is more, I have reason to believe that @ozchartart is a friend of some of the major whales who up vote his posts. What is telling is that it isn't @ozchartart who is acting out by flagging every single one of my comments into oblivion, it is the whale(s) that vote for him.

I thought that this was a *social* networking platform.  The last I checked, friendships are a part of the social nature of humans.
👍  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (8)
@beanz ·
If I could upvote my friends to the trending page on a daily basis at the expense of the other users experience this would be an anti social behaviour.  There is nothing "social" about nepotism.  It's pretty harmless for the minnows and even the dolphins, but you're in a position of responsibility if you have enough SP to have a powerful influence on general user experience.
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@complexring ·
I vote for people I know and don't know all the time.  

If you can't vote for what you want, then there is ***no incentive*** for anyone to buy steem, power up, gain influence, and reward the content you like.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@dantheman ·
$0.17
Yes, it is good to be friends and to share.  But part of being social is supporting the entire community not just your buddies.   Whales have greater responsibilities in this regard than other individuals because their actions carry so much weight.
👍  , , , , , ,
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@acidyo · (edited)
$0.08
>But part of being social is supporting the entire community not just your buddies.

Are you saying the whales in question haven't done anything for the rest of the community? Just for their friends? Have you heard of Project Curie?

I don't know any of them personally yet they have supported my mediocre posts cause they are aware of my work outside of the platform to bring users here. 

I can't remember a single vote from you in the 8 months I've been here though.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@complexring ·
And it's impossible to do both?
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@thisisbenbrick ·
$0.07
Welcome back!
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@the.masses · (edited)
And then you have people like @thisisbenbrick who will flag any content against the whales just so he can get more votes from them. The worst kind of users
👎  
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vote details (1)
@digit · (edited)
I have not been here that long myself and am just enjoying my time here but I am sensing in the bigger community a tug of war going on with the reward pool. I think it is wrong that anyone gets flagged just for being successful. The quality of posting makes more sense and you would think that would be self managing but if bad posters have Whale friends then there has to be some way to make good content a priority. Where does that leave anyone's potential? As Steemit becomes more popular how is that going to get better? more people tugging over the same thing?
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@doitvoluntarily ·
76 flags on this?? holy cow!
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@senseiteekay ·
Sybil attack.
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@doitvoluntarily ·
what is that?
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@eddard ·
The children of the forest and the first men were at war for years, yet the conception of a new threat, the whitewalkers, inspired them to call a truce and combat the *true* enemy.

I implore those of you that are at each other's throats to find a common enemy in the devolution of this platform, and unite together in spite of your differences for the sake of the survival of Steemit.
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@endgame ·
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vote details (7)
@eric-boucher ·
thanks a bunch for sharing your opinion on the matter. I was not fully aware of the reason nor the internal issues at hand. this brings light into the subject, especially for me. Thanks a bunch for your diligence and dedication. All for one and one for all!!! Namaste   :)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@fart ·
Flag ozzfartchart at your own risk

https://i.swisscows.ch/?link=http%3a%2f%2fwww.bing.com%2fcr%3fIG%3d4416EDAA2C5741D3B95277DCB154382A%26CID%3d26B620D32A0560122B422ADE2BE26163%26rd%3d1%26h%3dWGaDg6nwu6HUaje9iDs8aR9ifhKIS53awH35KFQzuRA%26v%3d1%26r%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fmedia-cache-ec0.pinimg.com%252f736x%252f19%252f8b%252f6b%252f198b6b82874b363280feccc61c8807a4.jpg%26p%3dDevEx%2c5014.1
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@fat-like-buddha ·
$0.09
This is honestly a good portion of the reason I don't spend much time on posts on Steemit @dan or have brought over a  fairly large following I have built up over the past 8 years on other platforms. 

We have seen these socket puppets accounts over shadowing genuine contributors for a very long time and it eventually turns most people away from the platform.

You are in a tough position I must admit in figuring out how to try and control/ fix but still allow things to happen organically without getting involved.

I made a few comments in the past that the main thing that will kill this platform is "greed" by the big whales from the start. I still stand by that. I sure hope people figure this out before its too late.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@funnyman ·
$5.50
I agree with your point of view @dantheman. Thing that I disliked about ozchart is that he only shares the overview or basics of the market and I think what people need is more technical stuff that they can believe and can do further predictions. Being an intermediate trader I feel that  ozchart need to do add some more details like RSIs, Chart patterns, volume, trend, possible ways the trade can go and other technical stuff!
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@furion · (edited)
May I ask why you have flagged SteemSports, including the post where both liquid and SP portion of rewards are given away?

The games you flagged consisted of high-quality content, which requires  [hours of skilled work](https://steemit.com/steemsports/@cryptoiskey/steemsports-behind-the-scenes-with-editor-cryptoiskey).

This comment is not an attack, and you don't have to respond to it -  I am just curious about your reasons.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@dantheman ·
I have far more understanding for Steem Sports.   The content of Steem Sports is orders of magnitudes greater than the content of ozchartart. Anyway, I will not flag them without first bringing my concerns to the community for feedback.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@furion ·
What are your main concerns in regards to SteemSports?  Do you have any suggestions on how SteemSports can improve?
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@steemjesus ·
Dude (Dan), you seriously flagged Steemsports BEFORE you saw oz raping this tender young blockchain?

Dang Superman,  Look before you leap (you're squashing the sincere newbies)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@fyrstikken ·
$0.18
I applaud you @dantheman - This is Leadership and ethics in ACTION!
Long Live @steemit Inc.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (16)
@kurtbeil · (edited)
F ja! Long live STEEMIT Inc.!  Let us lay waste to our real enemies!
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@senseiteekay ·
$1.92
<div class="pull-left">
http://res.cloudinary.com/urbandictionary/image/upload/a_exif,c_fit,h_200,w_200/v1421526525/tj7gukeidrt8giwgivpl.jpg
</div>

Please, can everybody in this thread remove the phallus from their mouth right now.

<br>
<br>
Only Joking - please don't flag me, haha!
👍  , , , , ,
👎  
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vote details (7)
@smooth ·
Can't find it, sorry.
properties (22)
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@the-ego-is-you · (edited)
Funny, but downvoting ("flagging") because I don't think the comment is worth over a $1.50.
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@heimindanger ·
Anyone can downvote whatever they want, I do that a lot and just explain that in the comments. Downvoting is a good method of curation, too bad the blockchain doesn't grant rewards for good downvotes.
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@hexdek16 ·
I'm sure this could be construed as a 'pathetic' request.  I just started an account @loosechange.  I'm not using it for "marketing" purpose, or suppose it will get a whole lot of attention.  I did it, as a 'Project' to show our community how to grow here in Steemit.  Thank you for your thoughts, or considerations.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@senseiteekay ·
Why was this flagged? I understand this user missed the point of the conversation, but it doesn't mean they should be punished for misinterpretation. Sheesh.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@williambanks ·
That would be spam @hexdek16
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@hexdek16 ·
? What, wasn't trying to spam anyone?
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@hexdek16 ·
didn't see the direction this *viral thread* was taking ..... should have brought my umbrella.  Mistake.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@heykathy · (edited)
I'm a neewbie and prefer to reply to posts before reading other replies. This and another post I read tonight triggers disappointment and curiosity about what is really going on. Is there a dark side paper perhaps on the dark web that I keep reading about but don't dare venture into? What is the motivation for anything but positive development in such an intriguing opportunity? Find common ground again please to all involved. Or  is this just a social experiment without informed decision making?
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@dantheman ·
Generally Steem is a very positive place, unfortunately it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch.  This is why I believe it is important for any community to be pro-active in encouraging positive discourse and curbing abuse. 

It is particularly important that people feel safe. Having a whale that will attack with vengeance and without regard to objective discussion very toxic.
👍  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@anyx ·
$0.46
> This is why I believe it is important for any community to be pro-active in encouraging positive discourse and curbing abuse.

Okay, I have to ask then, because this is curious to me.
How come you do not support @steemcleaners, but @berniesanders does?
👍  , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (9)
@fairytalelife ·
That's funny, Dan. I'm still waiting for a response from you after you encouraged me to write you to help me solve my issues when I was posting under @jlwkolb. That would be positive discourse. You need to practice what you preach. Talk is cheap. What ever happened to following through?
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@smooth ·
> Having a whale that will attack with vengeance and without regard to objective discussion very toxic.

Yes that is exactly right. Now please stop doing so.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@the-ego-is-you ·
Upvoting because we need newbies in particular to chime in on this discussion.
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@heykathy ·
Thank you. I am looking forward to reading what has transpired today.
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@heykathy ·
What a surprise. Thank you for the encouragement. Look over your shoulder, I'm following you
👍  
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vote details (1)
@heykathy ·
Yours is the first where I have seen your values posted up front - refreshing.
👍  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@igster ·
$5.51
By no means does ozchart deserve the amounts he's currently getting. These posts take under 10 mins to make at maximun and require a little thought, close to none really. Other traders would agree, I'm quite sure. I've considered flagging themselves weeks before but I was afraid to receive flagging in revenge as Dan is now and let's be real my vote has 0 effect. People can still find the charts.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@liondani ·
>I was afraid to receive flagging in revenge 

... That is another problem with the current system
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@jackhammers · (edited)
$0.12
Thank you for doing a proper investigation.   I always knew something was up.

Its interesting that this is not the first time Dan has flagged this type of content.  What is interesting is the lash back this round while the other guy is powered down and left.  

https://steemit.com/scam/@the.masses/if-some-whales-could-just-upvote-themselves-all-day-and-get-away-with-it-would-they#@jackhammers/re-themasses-if-some-whales-could-just-upvote-themselves-all-day-and-get-away-with-it-would-they-20170108t124345624z

Thing about anarchy is anyone can start a group, guild, trail but the current ones are powerful so it's not easy.  Just like Capitalism.  Funny

And if people look at who is doing the flagging you can get a pretty good sense of who is totally prepared to game the system at everyone else's expense.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@thisisbenbrick ·
$0.07
A proper investigation?
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@smooth ·
Seriously WTF
👍  
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vote details (1)
@joshbreslauer · (edited)
interesting.
A while ago I found a post from ozchart and i considered it as useful in a way. 
I voted it up and wrote a short comment. 
When i saw this account frequently blogging i was voting on it per bot and sometimes read through it.  
After about  2 or 3 weeks  i noticed the same you are talking about here. 
This were way to much rewards for these kind of frequently content. 
So i stopped voting on it. 
It felt similar to steemsports. 
It is very important to take care of these kind of problems and to discuss them. (including with votes). 
i am not flagging ozchart or steemsports
But i do  understand your worries !
In this case it is enough for me to stop supporting these kind of content if you and others are also taking care of these kind of problems :)
good job sir 
thank you for your honesty and this open discussion
👍  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@juvyjabian ·
$0.10
I just want express my joy on this reliever statement coming from you:

"I created Steem to give it away. I designed a system to intentionally include as many people as possible."

Thanks for creating the platform.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@kennyskitchen ·
Apparently someone has taken issue with your post... 51 flags at the moment. Truth hurts huh?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dantheman ·
I am grateful for the 76 flags because it lets me know who the sock puppets are.  There is no reason to flag a post that has declined rewards and isn't itself abusive.
👍  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@smooth ·
_The only reason_ to flag this post is to express an opinion by doing so, whether sock puppets or not.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@steemed · (edited)
Your assumptions are erroneous.
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@the-ego-is-you · (edited)
There are no contractual rules for flagging anymore (I did consider the previous information box to be rules), so I'm sure there could be a huge list of reasons why someone would want to flag this post. Whether you or I consider it "reason" or not, won't stop that. 

Thus, obviously, everyone downvoting is not necessarily a sock puppet or unreasonable person, which you unfortunately seem to be implying in  the above comment.
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@williambanks ·
Just to be clear, if someone were bot posting the same content as ozchartart you would have no problem with it so long as it was payout declined?
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@klye ·
Dan I respect you for posting in this manner even more than I did before.

Let them whine and complain of injustice. You have the right to flag and upvote what you wish. Thanks for speaking out against mediocrity.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@knozaki2015 · (edited)
$0.02
Hello Dan,

while I agree that ozzies post earn a lot money, I think that most of the whales value his stuff because they are crypto addicts. we had the same discussion with another guy's posts when ned flagged him. 

I have been one of the fortunate bloggers who were supported by @smooth for a long time. many have cried that i posted 4 post per day but I build the rewards to build up my reputation and help others in the process.

In the past when I was a super Steemit N00b and a super minnow I challenged you and even made a post about that you as a founder should decline payouts it is great to see that you listened to us and are declining payouts on most of your posts. 
haha here is the post: https://steemit.com/steemit/@knozaki2015/why-is-dan-receiving-usdusdusd-for-sharing-official-announcements-of-steemit (just found it again)

It it good that you address this issue but I think eventually every blogger will have his ups and downs. ozzie has a run, might have secured some whales supporting him, but that support might end anyday. so I think we could just see how it works out. 

In the end the whales are here for profit, so they will support someone else if ozzies is not bringing in enough voting rewards
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@fyrstikken ·
$0.13
the OZcharts are pure shit!
Not worth anything - if my analysis people came in with that kind of crap, I would have fired them.

I support dan 100%
👍  , , , ,
👎  
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vote details (6)
@hagie ·
Was this the Investor / Professional Trader speaking or more the Actor/ Entertainer/comedian ?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@the-ego-is-you · (edited)
As much as I don't think fyrstikkens comment above is worth 10 cents (literary in this case, no offence meant), it's true that the information they provide likely will not be of any value to professional traders or investors.

However, although they don't make any attempts at prediction, let's remember that a lot of people still watch financial news networks that don't produce any more valuable content than @ozchartart. If we are to be honest, about the only value provided by most financial media today is entertainment value or for the temporarily uninformed to get a quick look at what happened in the market place during a specific period of time.

No matter how we want to price such content, this is exactly what @ozchartart is producing. Is that worthless and "pure shit"? No, but I normally wouldn't pay for it myself.
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@krnel ·
$5.88
Thank you for speaking up against the whale collusion that many of us have recognized, and not only on this one account. And when the bad behavior of whales gets exposed, some people can't handle the negative and conflict and try to make people who speak up look like the bad guys for pointing out issues. If people want "community" and "unity", issues need to be made more public so that things get resolved. Trying to spin things around as if the people who bring up issues are the problem is indeed projection.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (13)
@jamesbrown ·
Part of health is healthy white blood cells!  Hopefully I don't have to explain the analogy, in this context.
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@smooth ·
But, of course, it isn't "whale collusion" when the same whales repeatedly vote for your posts, right?

Or are you going to suggest that you got that 74 rep from minnow votes?
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@krnel ·
I work to put out content that people HONESTLY evaluate. Not constantly upvoted for my content regardless of what is there (some people do, and that's a max payout of $5-6 on autovoters alone). You know you're lying when you said what you just said. You're just trying to spread lies and see how many fools buy into it.

You're such a deceiver. Get a clue, but you can't it seems. You willfully refuse to look at things honestly and see the difference. It's just idiocy of thinking someone get's voted on, not for quality content that is evaluated, no, just assume it has nothing to do with content that people actually value since it is HQ content... no, keep denying reality, be a fool, and say that someone only gets upvoted because whales are colluded to upvote their HQ or interesting material that isn't repetitive crap charts.

But you go ahead and vote on the same shit charts each day, with all your buddies to pump crap to the top, with higher rewards than most people, but hey don't flag that crap because you're making curation rewards from it, flag the guy who puts out HQ work that can change the world, and for the first time gets his HQ work on the top 7 trending and a payout over 100$ for the HQ work. Yeah, that's worthless junk, better flag that. You're a hypocrite, a liar, a deceiver, and it's a joke that people don't see through your bs.
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@kurtbeil ·
Collusion around posts that involve little effort and give very little back to the community is sufficient reason for action to be taken.   It is sad when repetitive posts, that may have taken a great deal of effort initially and deserved sizable reward for that effort, continues to receive such good favor even when effort is no longer required.  On the otherhand, there are countless smaller players, folks who legitimately wanted to do something of real value to many of our smaller members, doing something that is time-consuming, unassisted .. but were pretty much ignored and gave up.

Thanks for the explanation Dan .. if there are whales using their STEEMPower to 'create' cash-flow via a third party in this manner, then it is definitely something that should be challenged!
👍  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@landofcrypto ·
Whales have to much power. I think it will kill steemit.
Mayby logaritmic scale will help reduce power of super whales? In my opinion 2 Upvotes 10k SP should be equal to 1 Upvote 100k SP.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@liberosist ·
I see value and artistry in trolling. The trick is being a smart audience. If the audience gets riled up by trolls, it's no good for the trolls and for the community. However, trolls have the power to instigate valuable discussion and debate, almost in a sacrificial manner. In a way no one else can. 

Throughout history, many of the greatest progress has been brought about by contrarians and troublemakers. It's no different for social networks. Alas, Steemit is not mature enough yet to handle provocation.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@the-ego-is-you ·
We discussed trolling over here yesterday. Maybe you'll find it worth reading.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@son-of-satire/is-there-a-place-for-trolling-on-steemit-discussion
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@lichtblick ·
Thank you for the explanation.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@liondani ·
$0.02
All this days I wait to hear what @ozchartart  has  to say.
He is the center of discussion right now and has not responded yet(?) I am starting to believe he is really an AI account(?)

http://www.greenbookblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/aishake.jpg
👍  
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vote details (1)
@beanz ·
I've commented and got no response.  He does sometimes respond to positive comments but they are rare. (considering he trends))

My comment wasn't negative but just explained I was down voting in dispute of the over valued votes.
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@dan ·
Maybe he is here with his sock puppet.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@the-ego-is-you ·
He might be, but let's be more careful to use that term I think. I've been called a sock myself a couple of times and it would be unfortunate if simple namecalling without evidence supplied becomes an efficient way of silencing users.
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@lopezendrea1 ·
Salut j'espere que je ne vous derange pas trop car je vient juste de voir 
votre profil sur facebook je suis LOPEZ Endrea  je vois que vous etre la bonne personne qu'il me faut et qui mérite cet offre. Je suis d'origine francaise mais je vie en Italie depuis 20ans a cause de mon mari qui est d'origine italienne. Je souffre d'une maladie qui me conduire jusqu'a la mort et je dispose d'une somme de 60 000 euros dont je voudrais faire une donation a une personne de confiance et d'honnête afin qu'il en fasse bon usage. je suis propriétaire d'une société d'importation d'accessoires automobiles. Donner une part de 10% aux enfants orphelins de sa région juste pour la bénédiction du seigneur apres ma mort. J'ai perdu mon mari il y a cela 7ans,on a pas enfant ce qui ma beaucoup toucher le coeur et j'ai pas pu me remarier jusqu'a ce jour parce que j'aime trop mon mari. Je voudrais faire de cette somme un don avant ma mort puisse que mes jours son compté faute de cette maladie au quelle je n'est pas pu avoir de remède pour ma maladie. Je voudrais savoir par la suite si vous voulez vraiment beneficier de ce don. voici mon adresse mail: lopezendrea1@gmail.com
    Je vous prie de me répondre.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@lopezendrea1 ·
Salut j'espere que je ne vous derange pas trop car je vient juste de voir 
votre profil sur facebook je suis LOPEZ Endrea  je vois que vous etre la bonne personne qu'il me faut et qui mérite cet offre. Je suis d'origine francaise mais je vie en Italie depuis 20ans a cause de mon mari qui est d'origine italienne. Je souffre d'une maladie qui me conduire jusqu'a la mort et je dispose d'une somme de 60 000 euros dont je voudrais faire une donation a une personne de confiance et d'honnête afin qu'il en fasse bon usage. je suis propriétaire d'une société d'importation d'accessoires automobiles. Donner une part de 10% aux enfants orphelins de sa région juste pour la bénédiction du seigneur apres ma mort. J'ai perdu mon mari il y a cela 7ans,on a pas enfant ce qui ma beaucoup toucher le coeur et j'ai pas pu me remarier jusqu'a ce jour parce que j'aime trop mon mari. Je voudrais faire de cette somme un don avant ma mort puisse que mes jours son compté faute de cette maladie au quelle je n'est pas pu avoir de remède pour ma maladie. Je voudrais savoir par la suite si vous voulez vraiment beneficier de ce don. voici mon adresse mail: lopezendrea1@gmail.com
    Je vous prie de me répondre.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@majes ·
To be honest it's all be very confusing to me and I don't know what is going to be the next target of attack.

The idea of whales colluding makes little sense to me in that, of course they are going to vote for their friends. They earned their steempower in one way or another and to step up and demand they use it in some other way than they have chosen seems wrong to me.

One thing I do take away from these last few months is that Steemit has become stressful for me. It like watching a bunch of arguing children that needs and adult from 1950 to spat that ass...

Unfortunately this is 2017 and they'll likely be allowed to continue until they destroy themselves...

Good luck finding a solution that doesn't involve ./shutdown -n
👍  
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vote details (1)
@markrmorrisjr ·
Bullshit. you're either a libertarian, or an authoritarian, and you have proven on multiple occasions which side you fall on when it  comes to using your power to manipulate results that are supposed to be crowd based. Before everyone determined that equality was the goal here, $300 a day was nothing. It could be be again, but not under these kinds of controls.
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@matrixdweller · (edited)
Keep flagging it, cause some whales to sell out. I get cheap STEEM and an automated poster no longer makes the most reward of anyone, thanks dan!
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@stevescoins ·
This is a good long term strat for the whales that are  looking to the long, long term.  It requires that they risk their own retrun on value in the short term if they are going to engage with other whales in flag wars with the intent of driving them off platform and selling their Steem

BUT it also requires that minnows and dolphins DO buy in when that Steem goes on market
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@mrfoot · (edited)
$5.50
I find it extremely hard to believe you hadn't thought about this kinda thing when Steemit was being developed.

A quick look shows everyone it's all about selling steem. You want to avoid being flagged, buy more steem. You get attacked, buy more steem and flag back.

Perhaps you shouldn't have sold so much steem yourself. I hear there is still some for sale though.

<strong>Seriously, do away with the damn flag system and put fourth a group of admins, paid admins; to deal with the garbage...</strong>
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@dantheman ·
$0.17
I did see this problem coming and when I suggested a proposed solution (vote negation) it was rejected by the very whale(s) who are acting out today.  With vote negation it is possible to let the two disagreeing parties "stand down" and leave the voting to everyone else.  

People were concerned that this would lead to "hard feelings" and a new kind of "abuse".  I still stand by vote negation, but obviously it takes a vote war to get some people to see the problems I saw 6 months ago.
👍  , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (9)
@mrfoot ·
$0.06
Fair enough.

Now the problem is going to be even harder to deal with. You have accounts powering up that never intend to make a post or comment in an attempt to shield themselves. Everyday steemians have no defense against this and seeing it happen is a strong deterrent to investing . 

Once content is here that "powers that be" want silenced it will be no problem at all to power up the largest whale ever known. Remember, the Clinton's have over 7000 youtube accounts backed by Soros money. 

This ain't the BBS days of trolling Dan, these people are well paid and far beyond petty whale wars we see today..

Steem on..
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@pfunk ·
$0.36
I think vote negation is better handled at a post-level than an account level. For instance if you negated @berniesanders' votes you would be crippling the Curie curation guild.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@sigmajin ·
>I did see this problem coming and when I suggested a proposed solution (vote negation) it was rejected by the very whale(s) who are acting out today.

Thats not a solution.  The solution is what youre doing right now -- downvoting crap sockpuppet accounts when they make crap, overrewarded posts. IMO, its long overdue.

The system already provides a means to negate a vote that you disagree with.  Casting a vote in the opposite direction.The vote negation thing, IMO, was a cop out.  It was a way  to downvote bad content  without having to sign your name to a downvote.  

It was also potentially hugely abusable.   What happens when the guy you describe as prone to tantrums decides he doesnt like someone so he's going to take away their vote (which he can do, if  theyre a non-ninja, with just a small sub account that he doesnt use anyway)

part of being a leader is coming to terms with the notion that sometimes, maybe even often, youre going to make a call that some people don't like.  And youre going to get called a shithead.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@son-of-satire · (edited)
$0.06
There could be a community service sort of thing, where users can vote on disputed flags for very small STEEM rewards.  Once a certain amount of people have reviewed the decision and found a 75% favour in one way or another, then the damages(payout and rep deduction) could be applied--if the flag was agreed upon that is. If a flag is overturned, there could also be some sort of penalty, applied to the one who produced the flag-- for example, the weight of the flag is reversed and applied to them. This would discourage people from flagging for insignificant reasons. 

There would be no way to abuse this because the whales could not use bots to manipulate the results. 

There may have to be a lot more users before that could be implemented however.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@steemjesus ·
$0.07
You can always go into the chamber and change the "N SQUARED" curve to not approach infinity so fast

https://i.swisscows.ch/?link=http%3a%2f%2fwww.bing.com%2fcr%3fIG%3d4DFAF9FB64294EBD9F039AFF297B8E23%26CID%3d3679F1D198A86C831B14FBDC994F6DB9%26rd%3d1%26h%3d2NCRtIe_z6z0TmJ5xygTqQVaSm7noxk25tb7QDr2SYQ%26v%3d1%26r%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fscreenrant.com%252fwp-content%252fuploads%252f2016%252f08%252fSuperman-II-red-sun-chamber.jpg%26p%3dDevEx%2c5050.1

to bring a little mortality to the current STEEM god population.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@williambanks ·
$0.36
@dantheman Negation would be promise breaking for this platform.  It's literally blocking a person from excerising the only promise made by this platform, i.e. you can buy and exercise influence.

A much simpler solution would be split out downvoting and flagging and make both require a comment explaining why.
If you did this there would be no problem here.

"I'm downvoting this because it is redundant, low quality and does not deserve the fraction of the limited reward pool it has earned.  By downvoting this I am redistributing the pool to others."

That's all flaggin is in this case right?  A redistribution of someone else's earnings to those who may be more deserving, needy or whatever but lower profile?

I mean seriously, would @ozchartart forgo payment for a day if he knew it would help @deviedev get her little sister out of jail?
https://steemit.com/life/@deviedev/jenny-jump-up-is-in-trouble

I know I would.

Point is, keep doing what you're doing but take a second to explain why, each time.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@demotruk · (edited)
$0.05
>Seriously, do away with the damn flag system and put fourth a group of admins, paid admins; to deal with the garbage...

This would completely undermine the whole concept of a decentralised blockchain as well as stakeholder governance. I would be completely out, as (I imagine) would many others who support Steem for the philosophical ideals it represents.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@jamesbrown · (edited)
> I would be completely out, as (I imagine) would many others who support Steem for the philosophical ideals it represents.

So what?

We're after the masses, not you and the few others whom share your ideals.

If we lose one for every 100 that we gain, it's a win.
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@the-ego-is-you ·
Yes, that would be a complete disaster.
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@pfunk ·
I'd rather have the current system than some committee of administrators. One of Steem's strengths and most interesting features is its decentralization not only of the network, but in stake-based voting and reward influence.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@jamesbrown ·
> I'd rather have the current system than some committee of administrators. One of Steem's strengths and most interesting features is its decentralization not only of the network, but in stake-based voting and reward influence.

The problem or lack thereof (with the system), IMO, is one of whether it can or can't be "gamified".

Currently, the system is set up where, if a single user has enough SP, he/she can essentially shut down Steemit.  Imagine if Bill Gates were to drop 0.1% of his wealth (somewhere around $50 million) into SP, what he could do (censor) with that amount of power.  He could essentially quiet the voice of all the Steemit community by voting down posts with several 10 million+ SP sock puppet accounts, or by simply down-voting at X% voting weight with a single account.

All it currently takes to kill Steemit's chance of success is a single, wealthy, "mal-intent".  I can just see Mark Zuckerberg waiting to time his entrance.  With just a drop in the bucket for Mr. Zuckerberg (a few tens of millions of dollars), he can almost guarantee the failure of one of his potential, up-and-comer, competitors.
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@son-of-satire · (edited)
I'd rather the flag be done away with. A flag is supposed to mark something so that someone can later come and review it, that doesn't happen. 

Rather than flags, it should be the community that decide whether a post is valuable. If the accumulative weight of downvotes outweighs that of the upvotes, then the post should be made invisible. But, no payout or reputation should be effected until the payout cycle ends and some sort of calculation is done based on the communities upvotes/downvotes. 

I also feel that while payout should be tied to STEEM Power, this particular sort of thing should be tied to Reputation.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@smooth ·
> You want to avoid being flagged, buy more steem. You get attacked, buy more steem and flag back.

As an investor this doesn't sound bad to me.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@jamesbrown ·
> As an investor this doesn't sound bad to me.

...until it starts to effect (affect?) you directly.

Having a whale "follow-flag" (I love to coin terms) you, as a dolphin (or less) is analogous to a strongman competitor, or professional MMA fighter, bullying your average man, of average build/ fighting ability.  True, these "victims" have the choice to train and/or hit the weight rooms to place themselves closer to par, but everyone and their mothers know that there's less than a snowball's chance in hell that equality (of competition) will ever be achieved, regardless of his/her motivations or efforts.

But we're missing something here on Steemit, which the "real-world" analogy has - the victim can call the police to handle the bullying.  Follow-flag dolphin, on the other hand, is shit out of luck.
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@mrfoot ·
Maybe not for the small few, certainly not good for the masses.

It's like being sued by Bill Gates, do you A. Run out and hire a good lawyer? or B settle ASAP ?

No one in their right mind wants to jump in a whale war from scratch, you wouldn't either if you had to buy steem @ $.015
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@mrosenquist ·
@dantheman
1. I recognize and respect you posting on this matter (you didn't have to).  That is awesome that you outlined your thoughts and motivations
2. Also great that you pointed out all this thrash is caustic to the greater good and health of the platform we all want to succeed.
3. Calling for a truce, WITH outlining your concessions is a great step forward
4. I don't exactly agree with everything you said, but i don't disagree with it all as well
5. As a reader to Steemit, I do enjoy ozchartart's content (I frequently upvote it) but am no whale by any means, nor am I a bot or sockpuppet.  Just a normal guy upvoting stuff I like.
6. Even if 95% were automated, I would still vote for it as I value the information, convenience, format, discussion, and access.  My choice to vote is not solely based upon the number of words, originality or amount of effort.  I would probably upvote anything Einstein posted, regardless of the quality.
7. But that is my choice.  And I suppose that is the point.  You have your reasons, which are just as valid (they just carry a LOT more weight than mine) - which is fine, you EARNED it.
8. What I like most is you are articulating why you are voting in this way.  It makes it more human.  
9. I would hope all those who want the platform to succeed would also share their thoughts, motivations, and openly discuss why they vote in certain ways.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@mrwang · (edited)
Thank you for speaking out and acknowledging the issue... with that being said

Sounds like we need to nominate @ozchartart for [TOP 5!!!](https://steemit.com/funny/@mrwang/steemit-s-douchebag-nominations) and @ozchartart and his whale supporter should nominate @dantheman as well

## 76 flags??? nevermind about nominating @dantheman everybody nominate the peeps flagging the crap outta this.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@the-ego-is-you · (edited)
I'd nominate myself for the free publicity and to put more emphazis on the things I wrote about in that comment at the bottom of this page, but I'm afraid of what the price would be.... ;)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@mrwang ·
lol, it's all good @the-ego-is-you in fact, I could nominate you for that little disagreement we had in steemitchat a while back... but it doesn't qualify or compare to some of the "dbags" already nominated.

the post has 2 hours left... join in, it's for funzies.. nothing bad
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@mrwang ·
## Hopefully this calms the storm
👍  
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vote details (1)
@mughat ·
$0.15
You are a hero standing up for Justice. Let's think long range and make the platform great. Reward valuable content and flag useless content.
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@mughat · (edited)
$6.19
Thanks. Your display of strong leadership has made me bullish on the platform again. A bit late, but I am getting some more STEEM now.
👍  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@oldtimer ·
$5.31
@ozchartart  is the only author  I flagged and muted so far on steemit. No quality.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@olisan ·
thank you for this interesting post, i had the chance to learn a lot today, and the comments are valuable as well !  have a great day
👍  
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vote details (1)
@onlyvoluntary · (edited)
i find it hard to believe that whales don't have their favorite authors that they support and vote for... I see the same whales always supporting the same people... i just hope ALL of the whales can help the MINNOWS more! not even me, but the rest of them because they are most important to this platform, lets get some new creators in the trending section and not always the same folks maybe
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@the-ego-is-you ·
Have you seen my proposal for "hindsight rewards"? It's supposed to work as a referal system and incentivise voting for expected to be successful  (in extension usually good) authors, among other things.
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@pfunk ·
$0.15
Can we please stop using the concept of *flag* on Steemit? It's a downvote. The downvotes on his posts were not "flags" as the concept is used on other, centralized websites. The use of "flag" on Steemit is basically outside of the de facto definition of the word (and icon) on the rest of the web, and as a result has caused a lot of confusion and backlash.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (16)
@the-ego-is-you ·
It seems that the team working on Busy has caught on to that and will try to seperate the flag from the regular downvote.
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@pollux.one ·
Just wanting to add my 2 Cents, I found out that my thoughts about the matter exceed  a "reply"... maybe someone is interested:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@pollux.one/steem-anarchy-and-the-zero-sum-game
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@publicworker ·
Thank you for your action dan.
properties (22)
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@retiredinsamar ·
$0.15
Well, for what it's worth, @ozchartart is back, this time in a SBD snatching role, trolling on Steem.chat asking to send SBD in return for ??? (whatever). He asked me to send him my current balance of SBD in exchange for mucho SP! Not sure if this is legit, but it seems underhanded.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@rgeddes ·
My comrades and I salute you for knowing what is best for us.  Thank you for keeping the evil whales at bay.  Maybe you can come over to my house some time - pick out my clothes for me - tell me what to watch on TV or what to eat.  Maybe you can look through my book collection - I am sure there are at least a few pages that wouldnt suite your taste - I understand - you can rip them out.  Don't worry Great Leader - we understand the hardships involved in becoming the Father of a great nation such as Steem.   Imagine if the evils of Ozchart, @Steemports, ChinaDaily, Curie or anyone else who is popular were allowed to run unchecked!? Our leader is so great that his vote is the only vote that matters!  Fuck the whales - especially the ones who talk back!  Nobody can hide from our Great Leader - once in his talons - the die is cast . Steem on!  Dan and Ned forever <3 <3
👍  
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vote details (1)
@richardcrill ·
As you can see, a lot of us are happy to see you calling out this behavior. Have you seen the recent flagging of @dollarvigilante? It seems a bit excessive to me.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@the-ego-is-you ·
I agree, since some of it seems to be based on claims of fraud that remain unproven.
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@riskdebonair ·
A juicy post with even juicier comments!

We need more commenting on Steemit.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@the-ego-is-you ·
I'd appreciate it if you found and voted for my lonely comment at the bottom of this page ;)
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@senseiteekay ·
@dantheman, why is it that everytime someone has these discussions, we fail to address the sybil attacks happening on this platform? These whale account have multiple voters following them and of which are mostly fake accounts belonging to said whale or another one user. They, by having multiple accounts under the one umbrella, are manipulating reward pools and metric value of the platform for their own benefit. Can we please  address the issue of automated voting from multiple, such as the 76 accounts that flagged you in succession, so that we can create a solution. Without the *"fair scoring algorithm"* suggested in the whitepaper, this platform is worth less than it should be. Gamification is a serious issue and needs to be fixed if we're to reach a community with true subjective values.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@dantheman ·
Sybil is largely addressed by stake weighted voting. All that is left is the "appearance" of support.  Of the 76 downvotes, it is pretty clear that only a handful of people are behind them. Down voting a discussion that isn't paying anything out is also indicative of striking out to "hurt" rather than simply engaging in the discussion.

Most of the responses are "against me" and not even attempting to address my concerns.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@senseiteekay · (edited)
I believe your concerns are warranted, but there are bigger issues to be addressed other than what we "think" is valuable or not valuable. Until we truly have a fair voting algorithm free from gamification, how are we to clearly examine how votes are being spent and how content is being valued? We can each argue what we think should be worth x amount, but the fact remains, we each value content differently. Until we can clearly show that value, the voting problem stays a revolving door. The amount of posts right now, created in the last few hours about this topic, are clear evidence that this problem is not going away until we find a solution for diluted metrics.
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@senseiteekay ·
Also, no matter what your stake is worth, if you're diluting the metric data of the platform, you're engaged in sybil attack. People are farming curation rewards right now with sybil methods. Denying this is to ignore what's going on.
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@smooth · (edited)
$0.04
>  Down voting a discussion that isn't paying anything out is also indicative of striking out to "hurt" rather than simply engaging in the discussion.

Why reject the notion that voting is an expression of opinion? Why pull out the victim card and assume someone is hurt you (and in doing so attempt to delegitimize their actions), rather than respect that they disagree with you, and consider that maybe when intelligent people disagree with you, _you are getting something wrong_ (or at a minimum failing to approach things in a manner that is community- and consensus-building)? Setting aside automated or explicitly strategic voting (clearly neither of which apply here), much of the time people vote for something they like or agree with and vote against something they dislike or disagree with. Do you consider it an attack meant to "hurt" you if people disagree with you or dislike what you say or how you say it?

> Most of the responses are "against me" and not even attempting to address my concerns

Some of us feel that the problems with your post and the approach to the subject matter is more important than "your concerns", which frankly are rather trivial. If @ozchartart weren't on the trending page someone else would be. The same rewards would be paid out, and in much the same concentrated manner. Maybe the content of those replacement posts would be "better" but that is really inherently subjective. I'm not particularly a fan of either but I probably slightly consider @ozchartart as bringing more value to the platform than @krnel. Is my opinion "wrong"?
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@senseiteekay · (edited)
Please read my latest post, in which I discuss these issues at greater depth:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@senseiteekay/steemit-value-is-subjective

I would appreciate your input.
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@sigmajin ·
It looks like the same 76 people have  a problem with this post that had a problem  with my red tide post about institutional posters.  I guess dan must be a "sexual moralizer" too
👍  
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
$7.99
Your entire attitude including your unproven and unprovable accusations of "collusive" whales and abusive behavior is dysfunctional and harmful.

You would be more honest in simply stating that you do not like the content, or that you do not like anyone (other than you?) to make more than $X. By attempting to defend your actions by making accusations which you can not prove and which are certainly, at a minimum, not as true or clear as  you make them out to be, you simply damage your own credibility.

I've voted for @ozchartart's posts (in part because of your flags) and I can tell you that I'm not part of any collusion. No one other than me has any influence whatsoever on my votes. Since I have done so @ozchartart has _personally reached out to me to thank me_ which has encouraged me to continue supporting his work. (I had no contact with him prior to this.) 

Why should I reject that friendly approach by @ozchartart, and instead side with a power-hungry dictator who wants to throw a legitimate contributor under the bus in order to propose a truce that is only made necessary by his personal inability to cultivate a positive working relationship with the other major stakeholders and instead prefers to assign himself as the having the authority to label good and "bad whales"?

>  I have no need for more stake

Good then please give back the hundred thousand dollars or more worth of both liquid rewards and stake that you received in post rewards via "collusive voting" of yourself, your co-workers and employees, and others with whom you have a close relationship. Burning would be an effective approach. Please do not claim to be unaware that this was occurring since I commented on it at the time, repeatedly.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 24 others
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vote details (88)
@chryspano ·
Really smooth? You downvote to oblivion tdv and hide his posts and then you are coming here to tell us that you are against downvoting ozchartat? Shame on you and only shame smooth, If this is not HYPOCRISY i don't know what it is! , I have nothing else to say!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@smooth ·
> you are against downvoting ozcharta

That is not what I wrote and in another comment I acknowledged that I might very well have downvoted him at some  point. When you are actually reading what I wrote and responding to it rather than distorting it, I'd be happy to discuss it with you further.
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@dantheman ·
Note that I decline payouts these days.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@smooth ·
$0.02
Yes, you started doing that after the rewards had already dropped by 90%+.

It isn't too late to burn the rewards you received from 'collusive whale voting'
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@fyrstikken · (edited)
$0.08
@smooth! You have brought enough trouble to this platform as it is. I am ashamed of you and I think you should be ashamed of yourself too the way you have mistreated new and investing users. How many hundred accounts have you flagged to oblivion since you mined your stake early? Shameful, @smooth - shameful!
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vote details (5)
@danlarimer ·
You are a psychopath who routinely makes physical threats towards others. No one should listen to you.
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vote details (6)
@dantheman ·
$0.87
Please be more polite, it is better to kill with kindness than use harsh language.  The value of your point gets lost and you give your opponents argument greater strength even if you are right.
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vote details (20)
@james-show ·
> @smooth! You have brought enough trouble to this platform as it is. I am ashamed of you and I think you should be ashamed of yourself too

I think you and Dan are delusional. You believe you are great visionaries and creators. But the simple fact is your efforts failed to fix the SBD to 1 USD (even with the endless pockets of Steemit account)... and now you believe you have done it by your "system design". The truth of the matter is - SD is worth $1.00 now mostly due to @smooths single handed sacrifice to enforce the peg (and him being ready to take any losses if need be). You and everybody else should be thankful to him till the end of your life... he is saving your bad product and putting tons of money in your pockets. Why he does it, I have no clue even before this tasteless comment of yours... I know I would have left you, you bunch of clueless idiots, long time ago...long ago with a nice stash. But he stays....you should starts thanking him any second you have a chance from now till Steem is alive.
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vote details (1)
@smooth ·
> How many hundred accounts have you flagged to oblivion

Probably none other than a maybe a few (certainly not hundreds) clear spam/scam accounts, and occasionally blatantly abusive posts or comments similar to yours. I also have flagged over-rewarded posts, including dan's, but not "to oblivion". You perhaps have me confused with someone else.
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@steemjesus · (edited)
A devil's advocate is always a welcome balance of power, telling people to STFU always only begs the next logical question...
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vote details (2)
@the-reginald · (edited)
So you believe that ozchartart's posts are quality and not botty/spammy/fakish? I have had ozchartart's posts in my list of auto upvotes on my steemvoter account for a while and now I am wondering whether or not I should remove him...

edit: Or are you making the point that even if it is fairly automated botty posts he should still have the right to post them and is deserving of payouts?
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
$0.05
No, I really have no opinion on it because I'm not a chartist. I however, don't think that accusations of abuse should be made just because someone doesn't like his work or his type of work.

I can tell you that in my personal conversation with him @ozchartart seemed like a sincere contributor who values his work and who truly believes that people who follow his work also value it. IMO, one of the founders of the platform attacking him from a position of explicit and implicit authority is not the right approach, regardless of whether we think his chart analysis is accurate or not. It will likely, as similar actions have in the past, drive away yet another (at least up until now) sincere and devoted contributor and supporter of Steem. Not the way to build a community.
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vote details (4)
@smooth · (edited)
[the other reply to a different comment I guess before an edit]

> I have had ozchartart's posts in my list of auto upvotes on my steemvoter account for a while

Why? I have not autoupvoted ozchartart, nor anyone else for quite some time.

If you like his posts, fine, if you don't like his posts that's fine too. No one is forcing  you to support them with autovotes. Your call.

> Or are you making the point that even if it is fairly automated botty posts he should still have the right to post them and is deserving of payouts?

Up to the voters (including you).
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@williambanks · (edited)
Quality is subjective.  They are easy to digest and I use them to show new investors when they have questions about how to price steem.  
@ozchartart's posts help me sell steem and steemit to people who otherwise would not be interested.  It's your decision on whether or not that report, automated or not is worth your upvote.  It is mine on days I'm looking at it.  Then again I don't have anyone on autovote either.
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vote details (1)
@son-of-satire · (edited)
$22.39
Thank you very much for explaining this, because your silence on the matter certainly had me wondering what was going on.  I felt it was sending a bad message to the community,  one in which you are willing to silence anyone's opinion that you do not agree with.

This explanation makes perfect sense and I can now empathize with your position. We all know that some of the whales have been abusing the platform. Not only do a number of them upvote the same people's posts continuously--regardless of the the content--in an effort to gain sizeable curation rewards, but I have also spotted a few instances of  blatant, selfish drainage of the rewards pool.

https://i.imgsafe.org/d934fa7b5a.png

I captured this image a while ago, because I decided that if I continue to see a lot more of it I would make a post expressing my distaste for it. I have seen it since, but not enough for it to warrant an article as of yet.

I imagine that this BernieSanders is the  *bad whale* that you speak of, though I do not expect nor encourage you to admit it. I had heard a lot of negative things about him before ever encountering him, yet wanted to make up my own mind as I'm not big on using other people's perception of someone as a reason for me to dislike them.

Then I noticed this blatant, in your face draining of an already low rewards pool. He seems to be upping his own comments on at least two whale accounts that he owns, then cashing in. 

He has no reason to care if people find it unbecoming, because he knows most are too afraid to speak out against him for fear of his wrath.

I am starting to feel as though a number of the whales are colluding in the draining of the pool, and it really needs to stop before it drives anyone else away.

In two weeks I am sure I have only had one post exceed a dollar, which was only because a curation guild happened to come across a chapter of my novel. This is in spite of me putting a lot of time into many of those articles, and them receiving a fair few upvotes. 

I can handle this, as I am here for more than a payout, I am developing my writing skills as I'm new to the practice. But others have definitely left because of this continued abuse, and others are no doubt afraid of speaking up because these whales have the power to pretty much end someones career on this site.

Well, I care not to live in fear of downvotes or  a ruined reputation. I always speak my mind in person and I shall make no attempts to censor myself on this platform. 

**Something needs to be done about these abusers.**

I would suggest removing the option to upvote your own comments, but then there would just be collusion and alt-account-voting to the same result. 

People are arguing that in time the wealth will be distributed to a point that their influence will dwindle, but with the 200 or so STEEM they are earning in curation every day while all but a few dolphins starve, I'm not sure if that's true. 

I think the curation rewards are too large for whales, and all but nonexistent to lower STEEM power accounts. I mean, really, what use is 0.001 STEEM. That might as well go to the author.

Perhaps with lower curation rewards the whales would be incentivized to vote on more content, rather than backing the same horse every time without even reading their work.  Then the STEEM would see a much more diverse distribution. I don't know if this is possible however, or if the contract states 25% curation rewards.

Forgive me for the length of this  comment, it turned into somewhat of a rant. I'm not angry. And I am prepared for bernie and nextgencrypto's attack that will likely put me down to a level 63 again or something. I just feel that you and Ned have built something wonderful here, and *some* of these whales have no interest in seeing it succeed. They want only to milk it for what it's worth and leave it dead in the water.

One last thing, this *downvoting because payout exceeds value* sounds like utter bullshit. Is it possible that this could be a way to increase the remaining money in the pot so that posts such as ozchartart's can then receive the money subtracted from the flagged post? I'm not sure how that works, but it would explain the motivation behind it, as their explanations don't seem believable. 

This is a great thing you have created here, so if your mind can conceive this, I imagine that it should also be able to find a way to save it from the parasites trying to suck it dry.
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@ats-david ·
$2.90
>I just feel that you and Ned have built something wonderful here, and some of these whales have no interest in seeing it succeed. They want only to milk it for what it's worth and leave it dead in the water.

There may be whales who want to do this, but I can tell you that it would be much easier to understand their motivations by actually interacting with them more regularly, rather than just guessing. It's easy to get caught up in the cheer-leading section on either side. But opening up the dialogue and actually understanding the concerns or disagreements would be much better. 

I can tell you that @smooth and @berniesanders aren't "evil whales." Do they have opinions? Yes. Do they have strong opinions on certain topics? Sure. They are real people, after all. Get to know them and see if your opinion doesn't change. I'm not saying that it *will* change, but it's likely that it would. It's hard to define people by their voting habits without knowing at least some of the things that occur "behind the scenes." 

In any case - a social media platform shouldn't be so serious all the time. This is supposed to be fun. Unfortunately, most users get too caught up in the money-making aspect of it and forget that this isn't meant to be a get-rich-quick scheme. Just do your thing, interact with others, and get to know the people here. There aren't that many of us, so it shouldn't be hard to do. And if everything works out according to plan, we may all have a bunch of money someday, on account of being early adopters. So, just enjoy the ride and do what you would normally do on other sites...and appreciate whatever payouts you can get. 

On that note, I have followed you and would like to continue seeing you produce good content. I'll try to upvote you more often if you can keep putting out good posts. See? Isn't this much better?
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vote details (65)
@sneak ·
> In any case - a social media platform shouldn't be so serious all the time. This is supposed to be fun. Unfortunately, most users get too caught up in the money-making aspect of it and forget that this isn't meant to be a get-rich-quick scheme. Just do your thing, interact with others, and get to know the people here.

Thank you for putting it better than I could.
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@son-of-satire · (edited)
$0.10
Lol. You have made me feel a cunt now. 

I have offered an olive branch to @berniesanders so we will see what explanation is given for what I have seen. I am not basing my concerns on second hand information, only what I have seen myself. And, I am certainly not cheerleading. Well, I am, but only for Steemit. I really want to see this place succeed and there are those that seem to be indifferent towards it's success and only care about cashing in.

Thank you very much for the follow, and I expect I shall not let you down in terms of content.
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vote details (5)
@whatsup · (edited)
The only way I can judge @berniesanders is how he behaves on the site.  He conducts himself as an evil or a stupid child.  It is all on the blockchain.

I always find myself disagreeing with Smooth, but having a great deal of respect for him.
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vote details (2)
@berniesanders ·
$0.05
You're clueless, open your eyes.
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vote details (12)
@son-of-satire ·
$0.21
The fact that you have not downvoted this post means I am willing to hear you out. Explain to me what I am missing. 

Explain to me how you can justify repeatedly upvoting your own comments and draining the pool when you're already making plenty through curation and there are others out there working countless hours to receive less then 1 STEEM. 

If you had invested a lot of money into this site and were trying to recoup losses, I could understand that. But, as I understand it from reading other posts, you mined your initial STEEM and so you must still be way up in terms of profit. 

I am genuinely hoping for an explanation that can change my mind about this situation, so please let me hear your side of this, because it does not look good from what I have seen.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@dwinblood ·
As to your posts that make less than a dollar.  Just keep doing what you do.  It is like fishing.   I have no doubt it will improve for you and everyone else over time unless we have whales up voting their own COMMENTS with multiple whale accounts.   That is the height of hypocrisy.    I'm down voting/flagging this post because it is rewarded too much and is bad for the pool, and then they up vote their COMMENTS???   Crazy.   I hadn't caught that particular scam.    I believe that could be thrown back into their face anytime they say they were down voting a post because it was overvalued and hurting the pool.   That screen grab of yours shows how much utter bullshit that statement was at least by @berniesanders.    Others like @smooth may still believe it and may not be engaging in such hypocritical practices.   @smooth if that particular screen grab doesn't make you go WTF then something is wrong with your logic.   Though I bet you see it and are thinking WTF just like me.
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@beanz ·
@smooth will have no problem with that comment.  He's respectful on the blockchain but if you find him in #price channel on steemit.chat you'll find him spouting the same arrogant toddler like crap as Bernie.
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@berniesanders · (edited)
$0.42
The comments are upvoted for a reason.  If you think I need the 2 SBD payout you've got a lot to learn.  Just like Dan, it's my SP to use as I see fit.
👍  , , , , , , , , ,
👎  , ,
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vote details (13)
@the-ego-is-you ·
>I would suggest removing the option to upvote your own comments, but then there would just be collusion and alt-account-voting to the same result.

Actually, I'm pretty sure @dantheman said something about single accounts being more powerful on their own that multiple accounts, but I could be wrong about that. Simply based on the current mentioned context at least, it would actually seem a suitable change.
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@the.masses · (edited)
And then you have people like @thisisbenbrick who will flag any content against the whales just so he can get more votes from them. The worst kind of users
👍  , ,
👎  
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vote details (4)
@steemadvice · (edited)
I fear this is really hurting the community and deterring new users from continuing to use the platform. If there  is any basis for which common ground can be established and this hostility put behind us, please find a way to achieve it. 

I see great things in the future for Steemit, but first we must show the world that we're better than  what else is on offer by being mature enough to overcome our differences band together for the sake of all in the community, and all that might one day be lucky enough to join it.
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@steemed ·
$1.45
Flagged because OP chooses to perpetually ignore any counterpoint, and it is not worth arguing. Downvoting is much easier.
👍  , ,
👎  , ,
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vote details (6)
@whatsup ·
$0.02
Well, flagging is the best way to bring attention to something.  So, it tends to work the opposite direction.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@williambanks ·
$0.02
Upvoted for visibility.  No one should be flagged for stating their opinion.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@smooth ·
$0.02
Fomenting divisive hostility and unproven and harmful accusations of "abuse" and of being "bad whales" against easily identified (even if not named) individuals goes beyond stating opinion, but honestly flagging or not flagging this post doesn't really matter other than for the one doing the flagging to express an opinion.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stellabelle ·
$0.06
Meanwhile the Steem Gnome is out and about draining the reward pool:
https://youtu.be/MUz4w8E-AX8
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stellabelle ·
Dan I am glad you did this. I am also wondering if you ever saw the Steemit Children's book I made that describes 'blockchain"? Here's one drawing I made that represents you programming the Steem code:
[![image1a1df.jpg](https://s23.postimg.org/c106qts7v/image1a1df.jpg)](https://postimg.org/image/6ctvzxnvb/)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@bluehorseshoe ·
Nice picture @stellabelle
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@stellabelle ·
[![thanks.jpg](https://s24.postimg.org/4n3xt4usl/thanks.jpg)](https://postimg.org/image/yf108bhlt/)
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@stevescoins ·
Thanks for outlining your view on this, Dan.  It has led me to revealuate my own opinion on the use of the flag.

There are some things the community as a whole needs to realize:
+ First, there is no magical unified community where all have the same goals and methods of acheiving them.  For example, an investor will use curating strategies to gain  return; depending on that investor's method, he may choose to reward a "hot" post for a short term reward (regardless of it's value), or to identify and cultivate a minnow for the "good of the platform" (i.e., his own long-term investment)
+ The reality of the platform as it stands now is that whales have power, and will act in their own interest.  While it is in Dan and Ned's interest to build the platform over the long term, other investors have different goals.  The use of the flag is a tool in attaining those flags (see below).  While the use of the flag to squah newbie competition is immoral (IMHO), it is effective and we have seen it used.
+ Getting away from the point of this post a bit; as users we all have different interests and definitions of "value".  I like NSFW content and I'm glad that a the method for including it was fixed.  Other people certainly do not, and have used their own flag to combat it.  On the other hand, I remember when I first joined some poor little leftist was complaing that this site was "polluted" by ancaps, and thus had no value.  I LOL'd
+ Some people are going to uses that flag irresponsibly and/or immorally even when it is not to their own benefit.  Some people are dumb, or hotheads, and there is no fixing that.
+ **TLDR?  If you as a user want this site to succeed  on YOUR terms, then you need to be a whale.  Either buy in via cash, or hard work in contributing content.  Curate the things you can, even when there is no upvote value, and leave encouraging comments for creators who aren't getting financially rewarded.  Understand that are are different people and different goals here.**

How did this post change my mind?
+ I previously regarded the flag as a tool for *censorship* as opposed to it's use as a *downvote*, and thus as a tool in the Steemit struggle.

I'd also like to vote all the commenters in this thread, because it was the discussion in addition to Dan's explanation that did it.  I typed, deleted, read another comment, typed, deleted, and then sat back and let it stew for a bit.

Full STEEM ahead!
👍  
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@surfermarly ·
> This post represents my personal opinion and does not represent the opinion of Steemit, Inc. I feel that as a founder of the platform I should have equal rights to vote as everyone else who acquired a large stake by mining early on.

We all do have equal rights to vote here. The only challenge of being the boss is that your opinion will always be associated with Steemit, Inc. 
You are a role model, a leader, somebody a lot of people look up to - that´s a big chance and also responsibility. And that´s why every little step you do is able to produce a huge wave (like this one we are talking about right now). 

I think the key is transparency, because it creates trust. And that´s actually the beginning of any crypto market. People love drama and drama is not good for the platform´s wealth. I´ve read words like *fear* , *war* etc. during the past hours. Your post will calm them down. Well done.

Conflicts are human, and as long as human beings are around we will have to deal with it. It´s just about the *how*. I think if we treated each other like we would like to be treated, we were on the right track... Factual, constructive and polite. 

> Lets not make this about any individual post. Lets look at the past 6 months of unchallenged milking of the platform. Leaving these actions unchallenged will only make the abusers stronger.

Exactly. Thank you!
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vote details (3)
@susanne ·
I only want to follow memebers that create original content, members who share a bit of their lives and memebers that provides value to this community. A quick look at @ozchartart tells me that he might not be in that category.
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@technocomanche · (edited)
# Use Words Not Flags 4 Xpression
http://i.imgur.com/lMD1Wk3.gif
# Accept Reality As IT IS & Change UrSelf!
## Welcome to the Third Millenium
### Might B U Just don't deserve IT better 
#### yet
http://i.imgur.com/GyJ3GKV.jpg
# ;) <3
##### [Just in case Ur interested in a completely different OpInIon On Steemit...](https://decentralize.today/the-ugly-truth-behind-steemit-1a525f5e156#.csoi01bdd)
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@technocomanche ·
https://steemit.com/steem/@murda-ra/steem-inc-future-total-transparency-platform
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@the-ego-is-you · (edited)
@dantheman thank you for explaining yourself, but these type of posts show exactly why Steem can not possibly attract more quality users than we are doing right now. 

Clear cut agreements, in specific contracts, is an essential piece in advanced economics and society. The Steemit.com website doesn't needs a typical "TOS" (as a centralized social media website would have) but even saying "The rules are: there are no rules" is better than leaving the confusing messages we've seen so far and encouraging these types of what for a long time now have been called "flag wars".

Seldom do I find myself arguing for a "social contract", but if such a contract is to exist, a much *clearer* such is exactly what is needed to be communicated to users via the user interface itself rather than via a constant back and forth of posts (that most members can't or at least won't keep up with), to accompany the actual innate "semi-contractual" workings of the Steem blockchain.

Further more, the semi-contractual parts of the blockchain need to be more clearly explained as being dependant on the witness "hives" social agreements, as developers and witnesses decide to implement or discard features.

Last of all, to make this possible in the first place, the actual contracts, the most rigid parts of the blockchain itself, need to reformed as to not confuse new users or make a single whale able to shun new posts or users.

My proposals would be

- Replace the flag icon on Steemot.com  with a downvote button.

- Replace the "trending page" with a "high(est) priced" page.

If you deem it necessary to maintain an information box for the downvote, make sure it only mentions the actual contractual workings; the mechanics, what a downvote is currently guaranteed to lead to.

- Implement a separate flag button that only affects rep and visibility.

- Make changes that prevents an individual whale user to hide posts or change the rep of another user unless at least 1 other (preferably a certain % of nonfollowing users) agree with the first individual user.

--Changing the system either to discourage upvoting ones own content / or stop users from making money from their own upvotes could and should perhaps be done too. But I think the previous points should take precedence.

Also see this post about requested improvements for Steemit
https://steemit.com/steemit/@barrydutton/steemit-needs-please-comment-with-your-ideas-to-improve-steemit-e-3
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@the.masses ·
Why is @ozchartart still trending when flagged and payout lower?
👍  
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@thecryptodrive ·
@dan I’m a bit late to the party on this post but I still want to leave you with an inspirational quote, “do things for others and watch how much they will be prepared to do for you”, I have been on this platform from the beginning and believed in your project possibly even more than you, I was prepared and did shout about it to the world on massive billboards and created the @steemsports project that has a related website frontend with the aim to create utility for Steem; with no support from you or your organization. 

in fact as a Christmas present, and during a very stressful transition in my life, you destroyed the morale of my team, and took away the paychecks and community esteem of our writers who are writing on your platform too, our project that could be the world’s greatest hybrid Sports publishing and gaming website based on the Steem platform and was very close to becoming publicly viable. 

All it took was the click of your mouse to downvote on a whim and give the community the perception that our project was bad and not good for Steem because the founder doesn’t like it. 

So to me a flag is just an easy click of the mouse for some, and a cave-in of someone’s entire life, and dreams on the receiving end. 

All I hope to see in 2017 is that you do something good for your people, our distribution games are destroyed but you can still empower the masses, in the decentralization of the Steemit account you could still sharedrop SP on the entire community based on their activity from the start. You have the power to be the real robin-hood and be loved by all, once you have love, you have the greatest power you could ever wield to slingshot your platform. 

Namaste and God Bless! I forgive you and offer you my love, if you will only just love our people.
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@theullrich ·
The politics and economics of this website still unfolding.
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@tibonova ·
$5.49
Just a short thought on this: 
It's good that whales think and act differently. There is less chance for collusions if the whales don't like each other's decisions.
👍  
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@whatsup ·
$0.12
Thank you for trying to find a truce, and also for attempting to bring some balance to the trending page.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@williambanks · (edited)
$0.27
@dantheman Thank you.  When I talk to investors and they see you as CEO flagging pricing and market information such as ozchartart, they assume you are trying to hide something.

I can respect this explanation and will point to it when investors ask why this information is being hidden.

If you would please look at adding an option to "downvote" instead of flagging, especially for content that should not be censored just knocked down in value a bit.  In otherwords take away some payment, but do not hide the content, I could totally get behind that.

In the meantime, I'm literally begging everyone here...
Don't flag naked.  Explain why you're flagging and what people can do about it.  Otherwise that flagging itself is just passive aggressive abuse.  Have a spine, stand tall and explain why you went to the trouble of flagging.  It'll prevent hard feelings and promote discussion and community.

My 0.2steem on the matter.
👍  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@beanz ·
The flag wasn't hiding the content.  But I do agree it should be visually understandable.  It should be obvious that it's a down vote and that there is no authority to report abuse to. It's a very simple change that would just make things clearer and there would be much less need to explain how the down vote differs from the up vote.
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@stellabelle ·
I flag The Dollar because he steals money from innocent people.
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@the-ego-is-you ·
Good points made. I've made a slightly longer comment in this comment section, with a few other suggestions as well.

I think declaring why you flag is most important when it's not due to simple spam/trolling etc.
👍  
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@williambanks ·
Question, why is this trending?  and #2 on trending no less?
👍  
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@dan ·
$0.06
Based on engagement and comments it should be.    Very few posts get this kind of response.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@smooth · (edited)
I upvoted @dan's reply to you because I agreed with it. Contrary to popular opinion Trending is a statistical leaderboard and not Editors' Picks (except in so far as we might consider voters to be editors, but relatively few of these "editors" apparently agree with my view of voting based on value _to stakeholders_ as defined by: wide appeal; potential to develop the platform and community; and utility in attracting, retaining, informing and entertaining a progressively larger user base)
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@williambanks ·
Reply to me?  Not seeing which one you're talking about.
I agree with your motives for voting.  You're entitled to vote for whatever content you want for whatever reason you care to.
My points are related to downvoting and flagging.  I believe the platform can do fine without those except in cases of spam, abuse or copyright violations.
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@williambanks ·
$4.41
@demotruk I'm replying over here due to comment depth limits...
>This is a completely unscalable approach. It's much more efficient to let our stake weighted votes cancel each other out than to try and convince each other to change our votes.

My suggestion isn't about efficiency or scaling.  It's about projecting a perception to the rest of the world that says...
"We know how to engage in vigorous debate about the use of our limited resources"

You see this whole idea of efficiency is an actual problem we have here.  You think it's efficient and perhaps for you it is, but the reality is it just looks petty to the person you're doing it to, especially when you do it without comment.  It also looks petty to the outside world.

We need to be efficient with our monetary resources, I agree, but it is much harder to flag than it is to upvote and simply abstaining from voting is even easier.  A small comment along the lines of "I don't like this, I think it's earned more than it's worth." or "I do like this content, congratulations but at this time I'm avoiding voting for it because to my mind at least it's earned enough".  These are constructive feedback.  There is nothing constructive about flagging naked.

Flagging, downvoting or whatever need to be reserved for content that fits in a mold of spam, abuse or copyright violation.
But even then, the author should be given the chance to rectify the issue.

The other side of this coin is that people are getting cranky at other people and calling them "bad" whatever, when the people doing the upvoting are just exercising their rights as stake holders.  Arguably the same thing could be said of those who downvote & flag, but there is a penalty we pay in user perception when we flag stuff, that isn't there when we upvote stuff.

People need more tools and encouragement, not more rules and punishment.

I understand that this is all subjective value and subjective opinion.  But the reason this is trending is because curation rewards are unbalanced and favor those who make content that trends.  Thus the solution is to reach out the these people who are upvoting things you don't like and point them at stuff you do like.  Make a case and explain why your guy is doing any better.

If you get enough people who believe that your guy is better, he will begin to trend.

Alternatively I think we might be better off if there were a cap to curation rewards or better yet if they were eliminated all together.
Without the profit motive of curation rewards, whales would be less tempted to upvote or downvote anything.  Contrary to popular belief you really don't need whale votes unless whales are voting for someone else.

The net effect would be more people trending more often with different kinds of content as they latch onto whatever the next zeitgeist is that comes along and capture the 90+% of people who currently have no voice.

I know there are many who would oppose that idea, but honestly guys, if curation rewards were to go away or be split amongst commentors instead of voters, perhaps based on thread length, there would be a sea change here.  Furthermore, bringing back liquidity rewards would give the whales who are currently earning a living by auto upvoting the same handful of authors each day, another source of revenue that could be botted for a nice tidy hands free profit and honestly I think that could more than offset the losses from curation rewards.

The root problem here is curation and the curation rewards system.  It needs a rethink.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@demotruk · (edited)
Fundamentally, votes will be able to game the system as long as there is money allocated by votes, and not vote accountability. Curation rewards are just one way to use votes to extract money, if you remove it there will just be another way used instead. And removing curation rewards would be a promise violation, which was your criticism of vote negation, but this one is much more explicit.

>"We know how to engage in vigorous debate about the use of our limited resources"

I'm not interested in a vigorous debate over every little payout. I'm interested in quickly and effectively coming to consensus, in a way that encourages selfish actors to vote towards the common good.

>We need to be efficient with our monetary resources, I agree, but it is much harder to flag than it is to upvote and simply abstaining from voting is even easier. A small comment along the lines of "I don't like this, I think it's earned more than it's worth." or "I do like this content, congratulations but at this time I'm avoiding voting for it because to my mind at least it's earned enough". These are constructive feedback. There is nothing constructive about flagging naked.

The value of downvoting is that it helps to find consensus on payouts. An upvote only system is a false consensus, where dissent is hidden as they do not have a say without having to argue over every case. Forcing an argument over every payout increases the cost of coming to consensus enormously. There are good arguments why a system of government such as a democracy shouldn't necessarily be efficient, but Steem is an entirely different beast which makes hundreds/thousands of little payout decisions every day. A high cost of decision making would necessarily mean that it could no longer be that, unless you are willing to allow a large degree of false consensus. A false consensus means that money is being allocated where people do not actually want it to be, including to selfish payouts, amplified by the r^2 rule.

Accountability is the issue here. Reward tinkering is not addressing the actual problem of the selfish interests of larger stakeholders not being aligned with the system as a whole.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@jamesbrown ·
> But the reason this is trending is because curation rewards are unbalanced and favor those who make content that trends.

The hilarity of it is that what you say isn't really even true.  The competition to time votes is so high on the highest trending authors/content that odds are EXTREMELY low that those on the low end of the SP/ voting power spectrum (under 100,000 SP) will get any notable curation rewards from voting on them.

The key to consistent high earnings through curating, as a non-whale, IMO, is to focus votes on less competitive, yet consistent earning authors/content.  Realize, though, that this is coming from the perspective of a man that tries to get the most for least effort, via auto-vote.
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@stellabelle ·
Down with curation rewards! I agree. It would be interesting to see what happens.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dwinblood · (edited)
$0.02
I am only just starting to play out this.   I like the idea that curation rewards give an ability to earn on the platform just by voting.   I am starting to think there might need to be a maximum pool size per post.   Meaning like a post could never be worth more than 1 steem for curation, and divide that up over the curators with the current algorithm.    You wouldn't get you rich just for voting, and it shouldn't.   Yet those people that only wanted to participate this way would get something.

That would leave the reward pool primarily for posts, and comments as it should be as it is this content that will keep people engaged.

I do think if we do this that we should consider removing the ability to up vote our own comments, posts, etc.     If we are writing it the obviously we already think it is a good piece or worth seeing.    So let the community then vote and see if they agree with you.

It could still be gamed the same way it is now by large powerful people voting on each others posts, or even small people.    It is likely impossible to get to a system that cannot be exploited in some way.


EDIT: I thought of a problem with my idea here and am doing an edit now to explain.    The nice thing about the way curation works now is it is in the interest of curators to vote on things they think will do well and if they predict correctly they are rewarded more.   If this is lowered then for many powerful people there would be no reason financially to vote on any other posts than those that are in their network of friends.    It removes the reason to try to predict POPULAR posts and spread the power around.     I believe there might be a happy medium somewhere.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@wingz ·
$7.02
As a professional trader I agree with your interpretation. It's easy to get fooled into thinking people that talk about technical analysis in the markets have some kind of 'magic pill' or 'secret sauce'. Then assigning responsibility and authority to them.

As you stated, much of it can be automated and what is not automated in the case of ozchart is merely a recollection of price movements and unexplained lines without context. It's not analysis.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (14)
@senseiteekay · (edited)
$0.45
This is the exact same reason why I keep my own technical analysis to myself. It's no magic pill, it's my own opinion, and it makes no sense trying to explain what I see when I look at a chart, a chart that has zero predictability. If I were to express any analysis, it would be fundamental analysis (news, events, developments, etc), because you're stating the facts rather than speculation.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@jamesbrown ·
> and it makes no sense trying to explain what I see when I look at a chart, a chart that has zero predictability.

Let's not overstate it, now.  If you know that it has zero predictability, wouldn't it make you a fool to use it?

Technical analysis is statistical analysis of price patterns.  We will find with enough research that certain **price set-ups** and/or patterns provide specific odds of "success", whatever parameter we assign to that word.

The problem is that a lot of people want the "holy grail signal" that has a 100% success rate, while the best signals are more in the 55 ~ 60% range.  Thus, reward/ risk profile is mostly what determines trading success.
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@whatsup ·
It is just a plain ole' chart that anyone who is trading should know how to create.  Can you picture a trader waiting around for this chart to come out so he can trade.  SMH.  Either people haven't traded or.... I don't even know what else to say, this is so silly.
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