Seeking Knowledge And The Ability To Understand And Interpret It... "Marxism" by drdave

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politics · @drdave · Oct 3 '17

$14.08

Seeking Knowledge And The Ability To Understand And Interpret It... "Marxism"

![](https://steemitimages.com/DQmWYCu5EcmyiMrLabrJFoQor5KJZ2kAWUpxgj8GYiMBpvR/image.png)

With this post I want to delve a little deeper into Marxism, Socialism, and Communism - a topic I have touched on a few times in the past (in comments), and a topic where I see broad misunderstanding related to what each system of governance actually is, how each was implemented, and the overall implications to the world.&nbsp;</p>
<p>First let me explain what I believe Marxism to be - and also attempt to describe how the actions taken by Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot in their respective countries was vastly different from Marxism as envisioned by Carl Marx. Marxism as laid out by Carl Marx involved a government controlled by the working class that would eventually dissolve in order to achieve a stateless society. The means of production would then be controlled by a proletarian state that will in theory lead to an egalitarian stateless society that governs itself without coercive institutions. &nbsp;</p>
<p>There is a very important distinction when describing what happened in the Soviet Union, or what its close communist counterparts achieved and or were working towards. Bolshevism, Maoism, and the like, are inherently right wing totalitarian perversions of Marxism. Bolshevism in the Soviet Union was a right wing perversion of Marxism, It was a departure from Marxism, and moved to the right in the most extreme way – as such, an objective fact in political theory. &nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<p>Right wing doctrine is the advocacy of or adherence to hierarchy, that’s technically speaking, what right wing means. Leftism is the advocacy of or adherence to egalitarianism, and as such it implies societal power structures that are much more horizontal. The more left wing an ideology is, the more it opposes hierarchy and authority. That’s why completely anti authoritarian ideologies like anarchism, and anarcho-syndicalism, are considered to be the furthest extreme of leftism. Once you begin to introduce something like a state into that ideology, like what happened with Bolshevism, that ideology will immediately move to the right.&nbsp;</p>
<p>So within the realm of socialism, there is a broad spectrum of left and right. On the far left side, you have completely egalitarian societies, where there is no hierarchy of authority, such as in anarchism and the extreme end of Marxism. On the right side of the spectrum is socialism, where you have extreme hierarchy such as in totalitarian socialist societies like the USSR –and that is far from Marxism as it was envisioned.&nbsp;</p>
<p>The USSR was an extreme right wing deviation from Marxism and that fact is widely agreed on by political scientists and historians. We can all agree that the Soviet Union did not respect the principal idea in Marxism that all citizens were equal and deserving of equal rights and opportunities. The Soviet Union did not support the working class, and the Soviet Union whole heartedly embraced hierarchy as well as nationalistic foreign and defense policies.&nbsp;</p>
<p>The following is the definition of right wing. “right wing ideologies tend to emphasize the values of order, patriotism, social cohesion, and a personal sense of duty that makes the individual citizen who knows his place responsive to discipline from his political and social superiors.” - a nearly perfect description of the USSR. &nbsp;</p>
<p>This is also essentially what’s going on in Venezuela as well. We can understand what happened with Stalin and make the correlation to what is presently happening with Maduro in Venezuela. There is a situation where the government essentially promotes left wing beliefs in how the society should be organized, but still oversees and participates in a system of governance that is essentially right wing and totalitarian in its application… &nbsp;</p>
<p>I hope everyone reading has a broader understanding of the topic, and I welcome any and all comments...</p>
<p>Thanks for reading...</p>
<p>MDG...</p>
</html>

👍 minnowbooster, booster, randowhale, pharesim, minnowsupport, fun-along-theway, fyrstikken, ecoinstant, transcript-junky, crimsonclad, originalworks, lastminuteman, drdave, cheftony, gomeravibz, followbtcnews, doodlebear, steemprentice, rakkasan84, stephen.king989, sou1iane, buildteampot, mentionator, nojo121, kostronor, buildteam, cmtzco, gamerveda, welcomebot, resheep, steempact, coffeedrinker51, upgoat, steemposter, changeangels, konti, iliasdiamantis, gindor, jhermanbeans, anomaly, oluwoleolaide, nrg, pomperipossa, endaksi1, flexcougar, valth, pusteblume, upbloke, upcroak, banjo, edrivegom, robofox, cryptohustler, traderwhale, taica, maxer27, myday, beng05, whatamidoing, w-inv, badham, bluchr, decibel, tinashe, and 12 others

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@booster · Oct 3 '17

<p>This post has received a 6.48 % upvote from @booster thanks to: @drdave.</p>

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@doodlebear · Oct 3 '17 (edited)

The problem at the root is as I believe the dialectic mechanism. Marxists see it as truth and not just a model, which means that they automatically assume that history follows the pattern of thesis -> antithessis -> synthesis and this even if it doesn't look like it. In fact, this proposed pattern of how history advances is an ideal excuse to proactively use violence in order to create the circumstances as the model says would emerge anyway. Because when something happens anyway, why not provoking it to speed up the inevitable? 

Of course, as history doesn't advance in a dialectic manner (at least not necessarily) but is more of a sequence of likely (or unlikely) coincidences, communists will always only break things and make the rest of the world miserable without even understanding why everyone hates them. Because for them, they do the world a favor with their furor.

In good old dialectic manner, I will follow you now.

👍 drdave

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@drdave · Oct 3 '17

Both I and by extension the Universe, thank you for the well thought out reply - and hope you will check back in now and again to "make me think", like you did with this comment... :-)

👍 doodlebear

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@doodlebear · Oct 3 '17

I'm happy I could help. Will check in again;-)

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@mikesteem · May 29 '18

$1.73

![KgsZWJG.png](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmXCmFDV67zFHNrVXPAJVGdSjuUAerdFrn8Jx7QtKqUGci/KgsZWJG.png)

👍 steemswede, graphene-curator, mus, mikesteem

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@minnowbooster · Oct 3 '17

@minnowbooster upvoted this post!

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@originalworks · Oct 3 '17

originalworks

The @OriginalWorks bot has determined this post by @drdave to be original material and upvoted it! 
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To call @OriginalWorks, simply reply to any post with @originalworks or !originalworks in your message! 
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@minnowpond · Oct 3 '17

@cmtzco has voted on behalf of @minnowpond. If you would like to recieve upvotes from minnowpond on all your posts, simply FOLLOW @minnowpond. To be Resteemed to 4k+ followers and upvoted heavier send 0.25SBD to @minnowpond with your posts url as the memo

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@minnowsupport · Oct 3 '17

<p>Congratulations!  This post has been upvoted from the communal account, @minnowsupport, by drdave from the Minnow Support Project.  It's a witness project run by aggroed, ausbitbank, teamsteem, theprophet0, someguy123, neoxian, followbtcnews/crimsonclad, and netuoso.  The goal is to help Steemit grow by supporting Minnows and creating a social network.  Please find us in the <a href="https://discord.gg/HYj4yvw">Peace, Abundance, and Liberty Network (PALnet) Discord Channel</a>.  It's a completely public and open space to all members of the Steemit community who voluntarily choose to be there.</p>

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@openparadigm · Oct 3 '17

$0.09

What a convenient excuse to take no responsibility for the millions dead.....
millions imprisoned....
millions starved....
millions impoverished(impoverishing russian serfs and chinese peasants takes real skill)...
If only you were there to teach them real marxism!

👍 stevescoins, drdave

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@drdave · Oct 3 '17

Im not sure I understand your comment... Are you condemning the communists for their interpretation of Marxism, are you blaming Marx for the genocide directly, are you somehow chastising me for having a deeper understanding of the topic, or all of the above ?

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@openparadigm · Oct 3 '17

$0.09

I am criticizing you for using the tired old excuse of "Not real Marxism" .
Your definition of right-wing and left-wing is laughably self-serving, the terms originally referred to the nobles(landowners) who sat on the right side of the king and the commons who sat on the left.
Deep? Blaming everything bad on on your political opponents isn't deep its silly.

👍 stevescoins, superdavey

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10 replies

@openparadigm · Oct 3 '17

I do however agree with you the the Bad people are those who seek authoritarian power over others.
https://steemit.com/informationwar/@openparadigm/a-new-paradigm-for-politicals-no-more-left-vs-right-now-it-s-top-vs-bottom-yes-i-m-a-top

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@openparadigm · Oct 7 '17

$0.05

Maybe in your search for knowledge about Marxism you should have consulted Marx himself!

>Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of _**despotic**_ inroads on the rights of property , and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionalising the mode of production. 
                                                                              *The Communist Manifesto*
# Despotic=Authoritarian

Looks like Marx was a right-wing pervert, too bad you don't have a time machine so you could teach him real Marxism.
Advocating for an ideology responsible for the worst genocides (notice the plural)in the last century while pretending to have everyones best interest at heart isn't going to cut it anymore Buster!

👍 richhersey, drdave

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@drdave · Oct 7 '17 (edited)

Buster huh ... OOhhh... I stand corrected, and thereby my Mission is accomplished... It appears you've done some homework to bolster your position and actually *thought* about it - For that i'm impressed and commend your effort - I rarely find anyone who can articulate an opposing opinion on anything, much less a subject as complicated and controversial as this one... __HOWEVER__...
Referencing the above quotes from the Communist Manifesto, I will just say *_Context Matters_* and leave it there. I don't think you realize it, but you have proven my overall point perfectly (at least in this conversation). Selectively using Marx's ideals or "cherry picking" references to serve your own purpose contradictory to the actual intent - sort of reminiscent of what Stalin and Mao did, right?
I am however interested in debating your assertion as to who was genuinely at fault for the "worst genocides in the last century", as you so eloquently stated it. Political scientists, economists, philosophers, and historians have debated that question for at least the last sixty years, perhaps longer. There's no question it's a debate worth having.

Maybe the interaction between you and I can become more than just comments and replies to a controversial topic. I have been looking for a "niche" here on Steemit and this just might be it.
__I hereby challenge you to an actual debate on your proposition that Marxism is the ideology responsible for the worst genocide(s) over the last century".__
The validity of any claim asserting or contesting blame would have to be accompanied by actual facts to support it and also subject to empirical verification to confirm the proposition. Neither can easily be obtained, presented, and confirmed within the comment section of a Steemit post. If you accept, I have no doubt the two of us can agree on some form of moderation, and work out any other details to make it worth wile for us both...
__BUSTER !!__ :)

👍 razzek

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@openparadigm · Oct 7 '17 (edited)

$0.05

Your proposition is interesting but there are some little problems and one big problem.
Little ones, not a lot of time right now and some heavy preparations on my part would be necessary.
 The big one, We need to come to an agreement on the Definition of Marxism.
While that may be one quote among many it clearly shows an acceptance of authoritarian measures ,perhaps only sanctioned to achieve a goal, but not a condemnation of Authoritarianism.
I will look into the context if you can give me a quote where Marx condemns Authoritarianism as method in revolution or governance not of course a condemnation of his opponents.
Saying context matters and leaving it at that makes me feel like you will only answer my points dismissively a counter quote is the least you could do.
I will go into definitions  and the how they are a problem in todays political discourse in my response to your other reply.

👍 richhersey, drdave

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@openparadigm · Oct 16 '17

$0.03

# Are you still looking for that quote? 
I posted a rant without much editing and a provocative picture.
Its a pretty tempting target.......

👍 drdave

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@randowhale · Oct 5 '17

This post received a 2.11% upvote from @randowhale thanks to @drdave! To learn more, check out [@randowhale 101 - Everything You Need to Know](https://steemit.com/steemit/@randowhale/randowhale-101-everything-you-need-to-know-about-randowhale)!

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@superdavey · Oct 3 '17

Maybe on the scale of Classical Liberalism to Communism are you right about “left and right wing” politics. Modern day Liberalism and GOP policies would both be considered “right wing” according to your interpretation along with any sort of alt-right or alt-left group. The only “left wing” sect of your description is Anarchists and  Volunterists.

👍 drdave

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@drdave · Oct 3 '17 (edited)

The Left and Right is just another modern representation of the so called "totalitarian" and or "anti-authoritarian" designations - and the left side of the spectrum would be proletarian, and egalitarianism, with syndicalism at the most extreme "left"... Thanks for the comment...

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@transcript-junky · Oct 3 '17 (edited)

Excellent, @DrDave. Anyone who knows a thing or two about the general Chinese knows that, as a culture, they are conservative to the bone. Therefore, it seems quite reasonable that your theory could be applied to the Maoist movement. Now, having lived in Cambodia for several years (no longer), AND examining the current PM's textbook "right-wing" style crackdown tactics, PLUS the strong support of those tactics by the - guess who? -> the Chinese --> go friggin' figure.. Your theory makes a SERIOUS amount of sense. Please keep developing these ideas and this series... @transcript-junky

👍 drdave

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@drdave · Oct 3 '17

$0.03

History has proven on so many occasions, extreme right perversions of social-left doctrines, will inevitably lead to failure... Great comment & thanks... Maybe one day I can pick your brain on that couple years in Cambodia -Angkor Wat would be my ultimate bucket list scratch off...

👍 transcript-junky, drdave

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@transcript-junky · Oct 3 '17

Pick away...  but just be prepared for "no holds barred" feedback. I lived in Siem Reap for almost a year. I roam the globe on my mountain bike (currently in Laos). When I lived in Siem Reap I found out a nice little secret, which is that after 5:30 pm (when the people who work at the temple complex clock out for the day) it is perfectly legal to go into the temple areas. I used to explore the grounds, and essentially had the whole place to myself (with sometimes some other people roaming here and there) for the hour or so before sundown. Lots of interesting nooks and crannies to explore there, away from the masses...

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