create account

Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God by eturnerx

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com
· @eturnerx ·
$5.32
Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God
![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmYGMBtkivC896GixLscBw9rCp7c2Bbdm9tJyokTG79tu5/image.png)
Source: [PixaBay / PIRO4D](https://pixabay.com/en/puzzle-share-3d-task-solution-1721464/)

In a [previous post](/philosophy/@eturnerx/taking-apart-an-argument-the-argument-from-truth-for-the-existence-of-god) I examined an argument for the existence of God and found that it was not valid. The same social media account posted a similar argument, and I address that form of the argument in this post.

> The laws of logic are necessary truths about truths; they are necessarily true propositions. Propositions are real entities, but cannot be physical entities; they are essentially thoughts. So the laws of logic are necessarily true thoughts. Since they are true in every possible world, they must exist in every possible world. But if there are necessarily existent thoughts, there must be a necessarily existent mind; and if there is a necessarily existent mind, there must be a necessarily existent person. A necessarily existent person must be spiritual in nature because no physical entity exists necessarily. Thus, if there are laws of logic, there must also be a necessarily existent, personal, spiritual being. The laws of logic imply the existence of God.
 
[The Lord of Non-Contradiction: An Argument for God from Logic](https://www.proginosko.com/docs/The_Lord_of_Non-Contradiction.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1RgFhfM7Scb0aAaETCmtoa9-at3M_2rGYLmeSSgzRWhQkAttChQ1M5vDs), James N. Anderson and Greg Welty

As in the last post, I will address this particular argument based only on the [validity](https://www.iep.utm.edu/val-snd/) of the argument. While I believe this argument for the existence of God invalid, it does not mean that some other argument might be sound.
The first part of the argument sets up the premises. That I do not agree with the premises affects the soundness of the argument, but the argument might still be valid. So, accept the premises as true and move onwards while we check validity. The following statement makes the argument invalid:
> But if there are necessarily existent thoughts, there must be a necessarily existent mind; 

The second usage of *necessarily* is an [equivocation](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/81/Equivocation), which is to use an ambiguous term in more than one sense. So, what are the two potential meanings of the word necessarily?

1. in logic: conditional or implicational relationship between statements (see [necessary / sufficient](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency))
2. in theology: a member of a category of minds (see [God and Other Necessary Beings](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/god-necessary-being/))


So, which of these two meanings follows from the earlier argument? One trick for spotting an equivocation is to reword the statement to make each of the intended meanings clearer and then see which best follows from the preceding argument. The potential meanings are labelled.
Original: But if there are necessarily existent thoughts, there must be a necessarily existent mind;
Meaning 1: But if there are necessarily(1) existent thoughts, there must *necessarily(1) be an* existent mind;
Meaning 2: But if there are necessarily(1) existent thoughts, there must *exist a necessary(2) mind*;


The first rewording preserves the usage of "necessarily" as its usage in logic, and this flows without contention from the earlier argument. 
The second rewording would require separate argumentation to establish that only the necessary mind (god mind) can hold thoughts about necessary truths such as logic. Without making this argument, if the god mind is the only place where necessary truths can exist then the arguer then has no claim that logic can exist in their minds and so we can dismiss any argument they would advance, including this one. So, the arguer must establish that only a god mind (or some other kind of necessary mind) can be the place for necessary thoughts.
Since the first rewording follows from the preceding argument and the second rewording requires additional argumentation to make sense, we will keep the first rewording. 
Is this sufficient to defeat the argument? Yes. If we take the rewording then a defeater opens up, and this defeater is the same as that in the [previous article](/philosophy/@eturnerx/taking-apart-an-argument-the-argument-from-truth-for-the-existence-of-god):

Each possible world only requires a mind of some kind for true thoughts (such as logic) to exist within. As long as there is a possible world with a finite mind, then a god-like mind is not necessary in that world. Since a god-like mind is not necessary in all worlds, then this argument is not proof for god in all possible worlds, and so there is not valid proof for the existence of God in the actual world. 
It gets worse: the argument leads to a conclusion that because the actual world contains our minds for truth to exist in, then god is not required in the actual world β€” a bit of an own goal.

A responder attempted to argue for the second rewording:
> However, contingent minds like ours cannot *define* laws of logic; they can merely *encompass* them without nonetheless having any effect on the reality of logic whatsoever. [emphasis added]

At first glance, their response does mend the argument. However, let’s look closer: it appears that the words encompass and define are two different modes for how logic might exist in minds. Since the distinction between to encompass and to define is essential to the argument, then it should be made apparent which the arguer intends by rewording the argument. 
A reworked argument would probably argue first for the necessity of certain truths (like logic), then that truths must be *grounded*, then that only necessary minds (god mind) can ground truth. The above argument does not do this; there is an equivocation in how the word necessarily is used and the meaning of grounding truth is not defined. I suspect that the notion of what it means to ground truth would be a target for objection.

Anyways, first the argument must be valid, then it is time to address the soundness. Sound off in the comments if I have made a mistake. Alternatively, chime in with your favourite argument for the existence of God.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 134 others
properties (23)
authoreturnerx
permlinktaking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"tags":["philosophy","theology","logic","debate","god"],"image":["https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmYGMBtkivC896GixLscBw9rCp7c2Bbdm9tJyokTG79tu5/image.png"],"links":["https://pixabay.com/en/puzzle-share-3d-task-solution-1721464/","/philosophy/@eturnerx/taking-apart-an-argument-the-argument-from-truth-for-the-existence-of-god","https://www.proginosko.com/docs/The_Lord_of_Non-Contradiction.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1RgFhfM7Scb0aAaETCmtoa9-at3M_2rGYLmeSSgzRWhQkAttChQ1M5vDs","https://www.iep.utm.edu/val-snd/","https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/81/Equivocation","https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency","https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/god-necessary-being/"],"app":"steemit/0.1","format":"markdown"}
created2018-12-29 01:54:27
last_update2018-12-29 01:54:27
depth0
children11
last_payout2019-01-05 01:54:27
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value4.083 HBD
curator_payout_value1.233 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length6,297
author_reputation103,695,946,143,660
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,521,608
net_rshares9,689,924,697,377
author_curate_reward""
vote details (198)
@fucho80 ·
The existence of God is a complex and controversial issue for those who do not believe in its existence.

The whole answer to this is in the Bible, the Bible is the book that has the answers to all the questions of man.

I want to thank with all my heart the fact of participating in crusade organized by my good friend @ crypto.piotr "Santa visits Venezuela", your contribution helped us a lot.

Blessings, Pr Euclides Villegas
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
authorfucho80
permlinkre-eturnerx-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20190106t015043420z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"tags":["philosophy"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2019-01-06 01:50:42
last_update2019-01-06 01:50:42
depth1
children1
last_payout2019-01-13 01:50:42
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length428
author_reputation84,754,150,344,316
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,939,206
net_rshares35,365,450,503
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@eturnerx ·
You're welcome. Happy New Year!
properties (22)
authoreturnerx
permlinkre-fucho80-re-eturnerx-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20190107t092811672z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"tags":["philosophy"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2019-01-07 09:28:18
last_update2019-01-07 09:28:18
depth2
children0
last_payout2019-01-14 09:28:18
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length31
author_reputation103,695,946,143,660
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id78,007,367
net_rshares0
@lucylin ·
$0.03
>Alternatively, chime in with your favourite argument for the existence of God.

Laughter is food of heaven, and the left have no sense of humor...( can't even meme! )

The majority of the left are atheist...ergo....

(I'm being totally totally facetious, but also semi serious, kinda... )

(I neither believe or disbelieve, btw)
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
authorlucylin
permlinkre-eturnerx-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20181229t022101786z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"tags":["philosophy"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2018-12-29 02:21:06
last_update2018-12-29 02:21:06
depth1
children2
last_payout2019-01-05 02:21:06
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.020 HBD
curator_payout_value0.006 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length329
author_reputation185,811,362,824,733
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,522,683
net_rshares48,947,460,603
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@eturnerx ·
$0.04
Hahaha the "Argument from Laughter" - I pretty sure we could work something up there. So far you make a pretty good inductive case.
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
authoreturnerx
permlinkre-lucylin-re-eturnerx-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20181229t031903763z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"tags":["philosophy"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2018-12-29 03:19:03
last_update2018-12-29 03:19:03
depth2
children1
last_payout2019-01-05 03:19:03
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.027 HBD
curator_payout_value0.008 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length131
author_reputation103,695,946,143,660
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,524,848
net_rshares63,830,591,005
author_curate_reward""
vote details (2)
@lucylin ·
![scaled map - Copy - Copy (2).jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmPtyPL7rwFbK86enf1KLCKS7yFky5WxTjooyNGCjqpEJa/scaled%20map%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy%20(2).jpg)

...I try ! lol


....this below  .....is not connected to this -  in the slightest.....lol
https://steemit.com/blog/@lucylin/i-just-won-150-steem-woooohoooo

(the link is in the post, if you haven't seen it! - feel free to upvote the winning entry!!! - undulterated selling... lol)
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
authorlucylin
permlinkre-eturnerx-re-lucylin-re-eturnerx-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20181229t040307080z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"tags":["philosophy"],"image":["https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmPtyPL7rwFbK86enf1KLCKS7yFky5WxTjooyNGCjqpEJa/scaled%20map%20-%20Copy%20-%20Copy%20(2).jpg"],"links":["https://steemit.com/blog/@lucylin/i-just-won-150-steem-woooohoooo"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2018-12-29 04:03:12
last_update2018-12-29 04:03:12
depth3
children0
last_payout2019-01-05 04:03:12
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length442
author_reputation185,811,362,824,733
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,526,399
net_rshares25,217,428,496
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@mattifer ·
I don't have much to say on your logic here - but I sure did enjoy reading it. I look forward to more!
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
authormattifer
permlinkre-eturnerx-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20190104t171534690z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"tags":["philosophy"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2019-01-04 17:15:36
last_update2019-01-04 17:15:36
depth1
children0
last_payout2019-01-11 17:15:36
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length102
author_reputation4,441,994,143,533
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,873,200
net_rshares35,465,321,547
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@reinaldoverdu ·
$0.04
Very interesting and complete(and complex) reflection.
I  just here to say thankypu for the support you give to the santa venezuela event, that was very important.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
authorreinaldoverdu
permlinkreinaldoverdu-re-eturnerx-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20190103t141538319z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"app":"partiko"}
created2019-01-03 14:15:39
last_update2019-01-03 14:15:39
depth1
children0
last_payout2019-01-10 14:15:39
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.029 HBD
curator_payout_value0.009 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length233
author_reputation55,639,839,016,485
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,811,566
net_rshares70,736,538,474
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@roronoa07 ·
It sure was a very interesting read, i'm always up for discussion and debate when it is done in a civil and rational way.

Moving from that, i wanted to pay you a visit to express my most sincere gratitute for your help during the ''Santa Venezuela'' initiative, every pitch counts, and yours certainly did, acts of kindness like this are always appreciated, i really hope that the year ahead of you and beyond are filled of happiness and joy.

Thanks for your support!
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
authorroronoa07
permlinkre-eturnerx-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20190106t000211204z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"tags":["philosophy"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2019-01-05 23:31:06
last_update2019-01-05 23:31:06
depth1
children0
last_payout2019-01-12 23:31:06
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length469
author_reputation3,702,017,639,359
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,935,029
net_rshares35,651,111,041
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@steem-ua ·
#### Hi @eturnerx!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your **UA** account score is currently 4.676 which ranks you at **#1573** across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has improved 4 places in the last three days (old rank 1577).

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 163 contributions, your post is ranked at **#84**.
##### Evaluation of your UA score:

* Some people are already following you, keep going!
* The readers like your work!
* You have already shown user engagement, try to improve it further.


**Feel free to join our [@steem-ua Discord server](https://discord.gg/KpBNYGz)**
properties (22)
authorsteem-ua
permlinkre-taking-apart-an-argument-2-another-argument-for-the-existence-of-god-20181229t110656z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata"{"app": "beem/0.20.14"}"
created2018-12-29 11:06:57
last_update2018-12-29 11:06:57
depth1
children0
last_payout2019-01-05 11:06:57
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length672
author_reputation23,214,230,978,060
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,542,300
net_rshares0
@steemitboard ·
Congratulations @eturnerx! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

<table><tr><td>https://steemitimages.com/60x70/http://steemitboard.com/@eturnerx/payout.png?201901050253</td><td>You received more than 500 as payout for your posts. Your next target is to reach a total payout of 1000</td></tr>
</table>

<sub>_[Click here to view your Board](https://steemitboard.com/@eturnerx)_</sub>
<sub>_If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word_ `STOP`</sub>



> Support [SteemitBoard's project](https://steemit.com/@steemitboard)! **[Vote for its witness](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=steemitboard&approve=1)** and **get one more award**!
properties (22)
authorsteemitboard
permlinksteemitboard-notify-eturnerx-20190105t033147000z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"image":["https://steemitboard.com/img/notify.png"]}
created2019-01-05 03:31:48
last_update2019-01-05 03:31:48
depth1
children0
last_payout2019-01-12 03:31:48
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length777
author_reputation38,975,615,169,260
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id77,894,418
net_rshares0
@steemitboard ·
Congratulations @eturnerx! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

<table><tr><td>https://steemitimages.com/60x70/http://steemitboard.com/@eturnerx/votes.png?201901080644</td><td>You made more than 16000 upvotes. Your next target is to reach 17000 upvotes.</td></tr>
</table>

<sub>_[Click here to view your Board](https://steemitboard.com/@eturnerx)_</sub>
<sub>_If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word_ `STOP`</sub>



**Do not miss the last post from @steemitboard:**
<table><tr><td><a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@steemitboard/steemwhales-has-officially-moved-to-steemitboard-ranking"><img src="https://steemitimages.com/64x128/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmfRVpHQhLDhnjDtqck8GPv9NPvNKPfMsDaAFDE1D9Er2Z/header_ranking.png"></a></td><td><a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@steemitboard/steemwhales-has-officially-moved-to-steemitboard-ranking">SteemWhales has officially moved to SteemitBoard Ranking</a></td></tr><tr><td><a href="https://steemit.com/steemitboard/@steemitboard/steemitboard-witness-update-2019-01-07"><img src="https://steemitimages.com/64x128/http://i.cubeupload.com/7CiQEO.png"></a></td><td><a href="https://steemit.com/steemitboard/@steemitboard/steemitboard-witness-update-2019-01-07">SteemitBoard - Witness Update</a></td></tr></table>

> Support [SteemitBoard's project](https://steemit.com/@steemitboard)! **[Vote for its witness](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=steemitboard&approve=1)** and **get one more award**!
properties (22)
authorsteemitboard
permlinksteemitboard-notify-eturnerx-20190108t072329000z
categoryphilosophy
json_metadata{"image":["https://steemitboard.com/img/notify.png"]}
created2019-01-08 07:23:27
last_update2019-01-08 07:23:27
depth1
children0
last_payout2019-01-15 07:23:27
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length1,597
author_reputation38,975,615,169,260
root_title"Taking apart an argument 2: Another argument for the existence of God"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id78,059,165
net_rshares0