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If Bitconnect is a Ponzi Scheme why isn't Bitcoin also? by godcomplex

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· @godcomplex · (edited)
$0.14
If Bitconnect is a Ponzi Scheme why isn't Bitcoin also?
https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/2017/06/04/16/33/pyramids-2371501_960_720.jpg
I want to address the current controversy around Bitconnect by asking the obvious question to those who claim 'Bitconnect is bad because it's a Ponzi scheme'. If this is what makes Bitconnect bad then isn't Bitcoin worse since it has an even higher market cap, more supporters, and can collapse in price at any time causing people to lose their life savings in exactly the same way?

They will probably respond with: 'Bitcoin has a function, it can be a payment system, it is cash'.  Bitconnect also has a token even more advanced than Bitcoin which is hybrid proof of work proof of stake. The difference is Bitconnect offers a circular economy based on lending and the Bitconnect pyramid structure is a lot more obvious. Bitcoin has a pyramid too though, because people who got into Bitcoin early have every reason to want others to buy Bitcoin so they can sell their 10 Bitcoin for 10 million dollars. 

When Bitcoin arrived people said it was a scam and many people including officials in China still say Bitcoin is a ['Ponzi-Scheme'](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/14/dbs-groups-david-gledhill-bitcoin-is-a-ponzi-scheme.html). Do not take my words in the wrong way, as I am not endorsing Bitconnect or Bitcoin but merely asking for the supporters of each of these two competing platforms to distinguish the difference which makes one of the two a pyramid or Ponzi scheme? Because by the definition of a pyramid scheme a case could be made that because Bitcoin isn't backed by anything but computation resources, and because earlier lenders of computation resources paid less and get much more from it, maybe it too is a pyramid scheme like Bitconnect with the difference maker being that in Bitcoin the earliest users had to lend their CPU cycles while in Bitconnect it was straight up cash.

Both Bitconnect and Bitcoin have mysterious beginnings, anonymous developers, and people deem either of the two as extremely risky investments. That is why I want to understand why either side has moral weight to demonize the other side. In terms of risk, Ethereum with it's ICOs are also extremely risky and most investors will lose, yet people hype and market ICOs which very well probably are mostly scams.

Obvious scams make promises, take our money, and provide nothing in return. Bitconnect provides a centralized exchange website, a functioning blockchain, and potentially more. Their centralized exchange could trade BCC vs all other tokens in the future and become the next BTC-E type of exchange. Their blockchain functioning means Bitconnect cannot be shut down by anyone so if it is a Ponzi Scheme how would anyone stop it without also being able to use those same tactics to stop Bitcoin?

Bitcoin provides a lot as well, such as a huge community of developers, businesses use Bitcoin, and while there is controversy around forks such as Bitcoin Cash, it still offers something. Is it possible to be a Ponzi Scheme while also offering something in return for the investment? According to Bart Chilton all it takes for something to no longer be a Ponzi or Pyramid Scheme is for it to have a [real world function](https://www.coindesk.com/ex-cftc-commissioner-bart-chilton-bitcoin-isnt-a-scam/). Bitconnect and Bitcoin both have tokens, and like it or not, they do have real world functions beyond just speculation.
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vote details (12)
@ankarlie ·
I've invested in Bitconnect and Bitcoin knowing that there is always a certain amount of risk in my investment. I am just amaze on how persistent some people are in social media going out or their way just to discredit a certain crypto. Even the founder of Ethereum has taken notice of bitconnect and called it ponzi. Of course  it is free market and no one is stopping me from investing on them. In a way it is good that they criticize since at least now people are aware of risk they are getting in to. Good or bad publicity it is still publicity.
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@dbooster ·
There is no such thing as bad publicity β€”P.T. Barnum
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@godcomplex · (edited)
The founder of Ethereum made that opinion based on nothing more than the returns. Ethereum went up over 7000% and no stock ever does that. Evidence of a Ponzi right? Same evidence Vitalik used. The truth is, Bitconnect is a blockchain just like Ethereum. Ethereum is a better technology, more decentralized, but also profitable for people who held, but for people buying at the top of the bubble, they might see the price crash in the future and call it a Ponzi.

So it's a matter of perspective. A person who became a millionaire from Bitconnect likely will not think their Ponzi is a Ponzi, just like a person who became a millionaire from holding Ethereum tokens might not see their Ponzi as a Ponzi. To people holding fiat these are all Ponzis which is why ICOs are banned in some places and crypto is banned in Russia.

Let me paint the picture. **In Ethereum, Steem, Bitcoin, the large holders are at the top of the 'pyramid'. In Bitconnect, the large holders in BCC are also at the top of the 'pyramid'. The difference is in who earned the tokens and how. In Steem the top of the pyramid earned it blogginng or mining or buying early on. In Bitconnect it is earned primarily by promoters, marketers, and people who gave out loans early on. In Ethereum it is earned primarily by programmers, or people who bought in early on.**

To anyone buying in now, it is an obvious pyramid because the people at the top of the pyramid need to sell to someone right? Who do you think that will be?
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@ankarlie ·
I liked the way you answered it sir will be following and i hope to hear more of your insightful comments. Very well said sir.
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@barter ·
I didn't know bitconnect before i read this post
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vote details (1)
@godcomplex ·
Bitconnect is becoming increasingly popular. But it is not at all a safe investment and the loan mechanism adds even more risk. That said if you decide to create a mining rig to mine Bitcoin you are taking far more risk than the loan in Bitconnect. In either case you could make money or lose money but in Bitcoin the time where you could 'get rich' from mining Bitcoins is pretty much over and done with.
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@dbooster · (edited)
$0.03
The difference largely is that Bitcoin doesn't trick you. You know exactly what it is and it is traded on an open market. Sure you can lose everything, sure they can trick you, but both things are more fair. Markets are inherently risky and are gambling o some degree, but there is also fairness. 

A ponzi is a scam. It lies to people to get them to invest, then it pays old investors with the money from new investors. It's that lying and tricking people that makes it so bad. If they were honest... well, a lot less people would invest in them, which would mean less money and make it much less of a good scam. 

Ponzis s pay out and they pay out *fantastically*β€”until they don't. If you happen to have the bad luck in your timing to just be getting in when the owners are getting out, you lose all. 

The moral issue here is that you are making money off of cheating people. Yes, in a market you are making money off people. You are making money off people who don't know what they are doing. Most day traders lose in the long run and the barons of the market just keep getting richer. But again, there is some fairness here. No one is tricking anyone about how to trade. In fact, most investors warn regular people *not* to trade but to go see an experienced investment banker to get help. 

But with ponzis the money is directly from lying to people and cheating them. Now if you are ok with that from a moral perspective, then by all means get into a ponzi. But be careful or you may be the one losing. 

Whether Bitconnect is a ponzi or not remains to be seen, but the reason people are doubtful is that they offer what appears to be a completely unsustainable interest rate, they have some strange paper trails that people have followed to deadends, and they send out confusing messages. For example, for the longest time they claimed they used a trading bot, but very recently a lot of the people promoting it have come out and said "there is no trading bot" and instead claimed the payments come from being linked to BTC. This lack of transparency is what is making people nervous. Also, they make it a priority to constantly have new people signing up. This is a red-flag. Normal investment programs don't constantly need fresh bloodβ€”but ponzis do. Again, it's not proof that BitConnect is a ponzi, but it does contribute to the level of unease people feel over the program.
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vote details (1)
@ankarlie ·
well said sir.
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vote details (1)
@dbooster ·
Thanks
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@ankarlie ·
I have read on an article written by a fellow steemian that now bitconnect are targeting young people like me in their advertising campaign making it seem that is "cool" or "smart" thing to do in investing in bitconnect. The author was an investor in bitconnect also but he is worried that young impressionable  people might get too excited get money from their parents or worse take out a loan from loan shark and invest without really understanding the risk involved. 
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@dbooster ·
Wow, really? That worries me. It's like when cigarettes target kids. I don't like smoking, but if an adult wants to smokeβ€”more power to him or her. But a young person... they may not always understand the risks, esp if the company is lying to try to trick them. So too here. Whether BitConnect is a ponzi or not is unknown, but... that almost makes it more risky. If people want to invest in it anyway, well, that's their choice. But BitConnect shouldn't be targeting young people by trying to spice up their image.
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@godcomplex ·
The reason Satoshi Nakamoto had to keep his identity secret? People like these:


https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitconnect/comments/6wgkaj/reporting_bitconnect_to_the_fbi_tomorrow_tired_of/
--
https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@debugger/i-just-reported-bitconnect-to-the-uk-company-investigation-service-lets-se-what-happens
----

People are making money and other people who aren't willing to take the risks are afraid that other people willing to take the risk are making too much money from Bitconnect? Otherwise what is the agenda for reporting this? If you don't think it's worth the risk then you don't put your money into it but if the government seizes it then everyone loses.
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@godcomplex · (edited)
$0.02
The moral issue is, no one is losing money. Show me one person who lost their money to Bitconnect to make the moral argument otherwise you are arguing from a position of no evidence at all besides your emotions or fear of risk. You could argue the same about any crypto, any ICO, or any gambling or sports betting site, and a lot of people say these are immoral and should be shut down because people could lose.

But here you are on Steem where the value of Steem could drop and people who bought Steem could lose. So is it a Ponzi? I think people throw the word around without understanding how it is defined. The same with scam, a scam requires someone to have lose money and a Ponzi is just an unsustainable business model. All of crypto, and banks in general, could be described as Ponzis.

What does a bank do? They ask you to give or lend them your money just like with Bitconnect. They promise to give it back to you, sometimes with interest. Other times the bank even charges you a fee to store your money in a bank. You are okay with this, but you find crypto doing it and it's a clear Ponzi?

Simple solution, if it is about moral why not stay out of crypto, keep all your money in a bank where it is safe and the government can protect you? If not, then you're taking a risk being in Bitcoin, in Steem, in anything not fiat and backed by the government which you trust.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@ankarlie · (edited)
Yes i agree with you in all your points specially the fact that bitconnect has not scammed anyone. Actually i made the same argument here just 5 hours ago *lol*

 https://steemit.com/bitconnect/@foodnature/i-quit-bitconnect#@ankarlie/re-foodnature-i-quit-bitconnect-20171119t014733777z

Anyway I am just a bit worried on those young teens like me who might be not think it through when investing on cryptocurrencies like bitconnect. But for me I only invest i am willing to lose and do it with due diligence.
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@geekpowered ·
I have literally seen more about bitconnect being a ponzi scheme than anything else about it.
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@afterglow ·
Same here.
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@godcomplex ·
https://youtu.be/CBGSo6A-DH0
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@igster ·
$0.03
https://steemit.com/bitconnect/@vlemon/warning-do-not-invest-in-bitconnect-it-is-a-ponzi-scam-read-these-10-reasons-why
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@godcomplex · (edited)
$0.02
Whether or not it is a Ponzi Scheme doesn't tell us whether or not to invest. You can say Bitcoin or Bitcoin mining were Ponzi Schemes too but that doesn't change that buying Bitcoin in 2010 would have been a really wise decision looking back. Will Bitconnect last? I think it will last for some years after looking closer at it, but will it last for decades? Probably not. But most coin wont last for decades.

So to say "do not invest" because it's a Ponzi Scheme doesn't tell me how I might lose more money investing in Bitconnect than in Bitcoin at the current price. What if Bitcoin crashes back to $2000 or even back to $200? So the same can happen to the other high risk investment options but Bitcoin doesn't even pay interest.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@ginafraser · (edited)
$0.02
Such a great  debate! Only God knows about the truth. Theoretically speaking, Bitcoin and Bitconnect are the same. The founder of Bitconnect is another genius except Satoshi Nakamoto. But maybe the people who can spell over Bitconnect are just genius, too.  Is Mr. Craig  Grant angel  or satan? It reminds me of the original story of infamous  "Ponzi scheme" and the famous "Amway" at the same time. Of course, Amway is proved legit later and now new American education minister is just from Amway family.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@igster · (edited)
I guess some people like the high risk of trying to get actual profits out of Ponzi before it collapses. Not many I believe. 

Bitconnect site will one day disappear and good luck trying to trade it on any other exchange with minimal volume. The price will be in single digits and under within days. My advice is that if you advertise this scheme, first put up a big warning that goes over every point in the link I provided you and why users should expect to see the service just disappear to thin air and their money along with it. 

But hey, 

> 1. "The Guaranteed Return" is too good to be true
First and most convincing argument.
I just calculated that if you invest 10 000$ and reinvest every penny you get from your BitConnect income, with a 0.5% daily interest you would have 10 405 071 in 2 years.
This is unrealistic and I do not think anyone would believe this is a "guaranteed return".
As we say in finance, there is no free lunch. I only wish there was...

Sounds pretty good, let's all put our money down and wait 2 years so we can all be rich together, guaranteed by Bitconnect itself! Who they are, no one knows though ;)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@vimukthi ·
$0.04
I had a discussion with the author and he just don't seem to get it at all. I've also written about BitConnect few weeks ago. As I analysed in my post, the supporters seem to be living in some unicorn land or some communist pipe dream. https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@vimukthi/trevon-james-vs-vitalik-buterin-in-depth-analysis-commentary-on-bitconnect

Eg comment: This is just human kindness people helping people, that's what the world needs and financial abundance is our basic inheritance not greed and fear like the controlling power wants us to live in and believe. They treat us as we are puppets and we are not. Love on....
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@godcomplex · (edited)
https://youtu.be/al78tc4CO9M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6ENkF4_Jog

According to their interview they have an office in Vietnam and in other places around the world, and they plan to add more currencies to their exchange.
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@molfzart92 ·
I love unicorns <3
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