create account

More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact by inertia

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com
· @inertia ·
$9.73
More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact
I believe setting a `max payout` will lead to less bot impact, in the short term, until bot authors adapt, that is.

At the moment, the UI only supports *Decline Payout*, apart from the default.  But for certain types of posts, I've been trying out a `max payout` of 99ยข.

It occurs to me, if this was a widespread practice, it might cause an issue to automated curation logic.

This is because, if the `max payout` is set small enough, curation rewards are practically the same outcome as *Decline Payout* (zero curation rewards), and thus yields no direct benefit for the curator.

Of course, it's pretty simple to do a work-around, but it requires resources and effort.  This is because in order for a bot to know an author has set a `max payout`, the bot must request the full post or at least the related `comment_options` operation.

In other words, a bot cannot just stream posts and blindly vote.  The practice of setting a `max payout` adds *technical debt*.  Well written bots probably already gather more information, so this is just an additional condition.

Currently, [Dr. Phil](https://gist.github.com/inertia186/61bcc2b821aa5acb24f7fc88921950c7) only looks for *Decline Payout*.  Since the steemit.com UI doesn't offer additional options, there isn't much impact at the moment.

#### Technical Debt

<div class="pull-right">
  <img src="http://i.imgur.com/qLXThFr.jpg" />
</div>

The more hoops we make bots jump through, the better.

As these kinds of conditions continue to grow, bot maintainers must add logic and conditions to deal with them.  Over time, depending on how well the logic is implemented, it will become more difficult to maintain.

Bot authors might not always document why a particular condition exists.  Months or years later, this adds to the difficulty in maintaining the bot.

The upshot is that when the difficulty for maintaining bots gets higher, manual curation naturally gains the advantage over the long term.
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 52 others
properties (23)
authorinertia
permlinkmore-max-payouts-less-bot-impact
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit","curation","reward","pool"],"image":["http://i.imgur.com/qLXThFr.jpg"],"links":["https://gist.github.com/inertia186/61bcc2b821aa5acb24f7fc88921950c7"],"app":"steemit/0.1","format":"markdown"}
created2017-05-09 16:45:54
last_update2017-05-09 16:45:54
depth0
children16
last_payout2017-05-16 16:45:54
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value8.576 HBD
curator_payout_value1.149 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length1,955
author_reputation346,568,901,399,561
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,282,286
net_rshares4,936,292,099,128
author_curate_reward""
vote details (116)
@gutzofter ·
$0.24
> Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation's final law
Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed

Alfred Lord Tennyson
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
properties (23)
authorgutzofter
permlinkre-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170509t182036450z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-09 18:20:36
last_update2017-05-09 18:20:36
depth1
children0
last_payout2017-05-16 18:20:36
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.234 HBD
curator_payout_value0.005 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length160
author_reputation7,621,537,677,018
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,284,178
net_rshares255,923,690,254
author_curate_reward""
vote details (3)
@kurtbeil ·
$0.15
When you vote for a post with a max payout, and the post has already hit that max payout amount, is your vote power still impacted?
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , , , , ,
properties (23)
authorkurtbeil
permlinkre-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t031959207z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-10 03:20:00
last_update2017-05-10 03:20:00
depth1
children1
last_payout2017-05-17 03:20:00
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.115 HBD
curator_payout_value0.032 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length131
author_reputation25,700,831,936,873
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,292,858
net_rshares159,354,841,025
author_curate_reward""
vote details (9)
@inertia ·
$0.13
I believe it does indeed drain voting power.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
properties (23)
authorinertia
permlinkre-kurtbeil-re-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t032205067z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-10 03:22:06
last_update2017-05-10 03:22:06
depth2
children0
last_payout2017-05-17 03:22:06
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.128 HBD
curator_payout_value0.004 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length44
author_reputation346,568,901,399,561
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,292,888
net_rshares143,414,790,846
author_curate_reward""
vote details (3)
@patelincho ·
$0.24
How you see the top erners to set limit ?
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
properties (23)
authorpatelincho
permlinkre-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170509t165308141z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-09 17:00:30
last_update2017-05-09 17:00:30
depth1
children4
last_payout2017-05-16 17:00:30
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.220 HBD
curator_payout_value0.023 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length41
author_reputation52,897,220,193,484
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,282,647
net_rshares261,586,993,244
author_curate_reward""
vote details (3)
@inertia ·
$0.11
In the current UI, they cannot set a limit apart from *Decline Payout*.  One thing top earners could do with the current UI is just select *Decline Payout* from time to time, to be polite.  But I can understand their reluctance to do that.
๐Ÿ‘  
properties (23)
authorinertia
permlinkre-patelincho-re-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170509t170342525z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-09 17:03:42
last_update2017-05-09 17:03:42
depth2
children3
last_payout2017-05-16 17:03:42
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.085 HBD
curator_payout_value0.028 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length239
author_reputation346,568,901,399,561
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,282,727
net_rshares126,603,461,281
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@ceenoevil ·
So how is Steemian in comparison to SteemVotes.com ? Just curious.
properties (22)
authorceenoevil
permlinkre-inertia-re-patelincho-re-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170730t065655810z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-07-30 06:56:57
last_update2017-07-30 06:56:57
depth3
children0
last_payout2017-08-06 06:56:57
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length66
author_reputation57,327,158,630
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id10,193,398
net_rshares0
@patelincho ·
$0.24
I can undarstand  this also most of us is here to earn something :) 
Is not easy to set up how much your work is wort .
๐Ÿ‘  
properties (23)
authorpatelincho
permlinkre-inertia-re-patelincho-re-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170509t170138374z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-09 17:09:00
last_update2017-05-09 17:09:00
depth3
children1
last_payout2017-05-16 17:09:00
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.237 HBD
curator_payout_value0.006 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length119
author_reputation52,897,220,193,484
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,282,837
net_rshares260,511,937,575
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@personz ·
> The practice of setting a max payout adds technical debt.

It's not really technical debt if the solution is well thought out and the programmers do not cut lots of corners. What you're describing is the potential for unseen complexity, i.e. incomplete requirements, where "requirements" are the set of things the software solution is required to implement or address.

As the conditions grow, the problem changes and a different solution may be required. That's one of the challenges of operating in a dynamic and complex environment with poor documentation of the underlying system (code as docs ๐Ÿ™„).

Another way of looking at this is as an incomplete testing problem. For all tested inputs, the software should be act in a verifiably correct way. In the case you describe here, we're missing a test for a range of inputs on each post.

In particular, I don't want readers unfamiliar with the term "technical debt" to think it means the cost incurred by a changing system, or by having to make more API requests.

Side note: My own bot by the way does fetch each individual post as it potentially a lot of analysis on their content and extended metadata.
properties (22)
authorpersonz
permlinkre-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t161211666z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-10 16:12:12
last_update2017-05-10 16:12:12
depth1
children1
last_payout2017-05-17 16:12:12
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length1,158
author_reputation42,452,361,038,560
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,306,465
net_rshares0
@inertia ·
I agree, 100% that technical debt is not complexity.  But I think the approach to complexity is often to cut corners.

I'll give you an example of why I classify it as technical debt.

Often, bots determine if a `comment` operation is a post or reply by checking to see if `permlink` has `re-` at the beginning.  But the "official" way is to check if there `parent_author` is blank.

Are they cutting corners?  In a way, yes.  They didn't (or couldn't) imagine a scenario where a post reply would lack `re-`.  So the question is, did the bot author really cut corners?

One opinion is yes, they did cut corners because they did not read `steemd` source to see how the blockchain determines if a `comment` is a post or reply (code as docs).

Another opinion is no, they did not cut corners because they should not be expected to read `steemd` source.

So I simplify it to "they knew or should have known" and therefore incurred technical debt.

I'm completely open to the idea that I'm wrong about that opinion.
properties (22)
authorinertia
permlinkre-personz-re-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t162923644z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-10 16:29:21
last_update2017-05-10 16:29:21
depth2
children0
last_payout2017-05-17 16:29:21
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length1,010
author_reputation346,568,901,399,561
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,306,790
net_rshares0
@screenname ·
Re: More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact
<p>This post has been ranked within the top 50 most undervalued posts in the second half of May 09. We estimate that this post is undervalued by $8.83 as compared to a scenario in which every voter had an equal say.</p> 
<p>See the full rankings and details in <a href="https://steemit.com/curation/@screenname/the-daily-tribune-most-undervalued-posts-of-may-09---part-ii">The Daily Tribune: May 09 - Part II</a>. You can also read about some of our methodology, data analysis and technical details in <a href="https://steemit.com/curation/@screenname/introducing-the-daily-tribune-most-undervalued-posts-of-nov-04---part-i">our initial post</a>.</p>
<p>If you are the author and would prefer not to receive these comments, simply reply "Stop" to this comment.</p>
properties (22)
authorscreenname
permlinkre-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t012304
categorysteemit
json_metadata"{"replyto": "@inertia/more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact"}"
created2017-05-10 01:23:06
last_update2017-05-10 01:23:06
depth1
children0
last_payout2017-05-17 01:23:06
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length765
author_reputation46,276,338,038,330
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,291,244
net_rshares0
@steemcenterwiki · (edited)
$0.24
Thanks for sharing! A link to your post was included in the Steem.center wiki pages about [Bots](https://www.steem.center/index.php?title=Bots) and [DrPhil Bot](https://www.steem.center/index.php?title=DrPhil_Bot). Thanks and good luck again!
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
properties (23)
authorsteemcenterwiki
permlinkre-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170509t201637824z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"links":["https://www.steem.center/index.php?title=Bots","https://www.steem.center/index.php?title=DrPhil_Bot"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-09 20:16:39
last_update2017-05-09 20:16:51
depth1
children0
last_payout2017-05-16 20:16:39
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.243 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length242
author_reputation6,805,543,786,959
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,286,542
net_rshares261,556,412,743
author_curate_reward""
vote details (3)
@zentat ·
$0.13
Perhaps we should consider the idea of a STEEMwide maximum, to maintain pool health and eliminate the need for flagging to reduce rewards.  Hmmm.. how does $100 bucks sound?  (readies trash-can-lid-shield)
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
properties (23)
authorzentat
permlinkre-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t032127150z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-10 03:21:30
last_update2017-05-10 03:21:30
depth1
children3
last_payout2017-05-17 03:21:30
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.128 HBD
curator_payout_value0.003 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length205
author_reputation2,980,385,569,111
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,292,883
net_rshares141,537,805,970
author_curate_reward""
vote details (3)
@inertia ·
$0.12
Well, this adds to the one-size-fits-all problem we already have.  I think it'd be better to have different layouts and suggested maximums for different types of posts.  For example, posts that contain original content would have no maximum.  Posts that are really just linking to external content should have a different maximum.

Ideally, these suggested maximums should be defined by witness parameters.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
properties (23)
authorinertia
permlinkre-zentat-re-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t032510277z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-10 03:25:09
last_update2017-05-10 03:25:09
depth2
children1
last_payout2017-05-17 03:25:09
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.092 HBD
curator_payout_value0.029 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length406
author_reputation346,568,901,399,561
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,292,922
net_rshares130,943,820,143
author_curate_reward""
vote details (2)
@zentat ·
$0.12
I posted the following .. <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@zentat/max-payouts-and-maintaining-a-healthy-rewards-pool">MAX Payouts & Maintaining a Healthy Rewards Pool</a>, referring to this post of yours - would love to know what you think.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
properties (23)
authorzentat
permlinkre-inertia-re-zentat-re-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t034750923z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"links":["https://steemit.com/steem/@zentat/max-payouts-and-maintaining-a-healthy-rewards-pool"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-10 03:47:51
last_update2017-05-10 03:47:51
depth3
children0
last_payout2017-05-17 03:47:51
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.117 HBD
curator_payout_value0.003 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length243
author_reputation2,980,385,569,111
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,293,185
net_rshares130,894,837,357
author_curate_reward""
vote details (2)
@steemint ·
$0.13
Interesting ..
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
properties (23)
authorsteemint
permlinkre-zentat-re-inertia-more-max-payouts-less-bot-impact-20170510t032307945z
categorysteemit
json_metadata{"tags":["steemit"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2017-05-10 03:23:09
last_update2017-05-10 03:23:09
depth2
children0
last_payout2017-05-17 03:23:09
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.128 HBD
curator_payout_value0.000 HBD
pending_payout_value0.000 HBD
promoted0.000 HBD
body_length14
author_reputation1,185,807,592,882
root_title"More Max Payouts = Less Bot Impact"
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 HBD
percent_hbd10,000
post_id3,292,900
net_rshares139,334,746,561
author_curate_reward""
vote details (3)