The Thorchain team made news recently by tweeting concern about Paypal buying BitGo. @rollandthomas, a short time ago, mentioned this in his [latest video](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@rollandthomas/cjlbunyi) and requested my input about this. This post is my response. <center>  </center> Firstly, some links for reference: * Cointelegraph article - [Paypal rumored to be eying acquisition of crypto custodian BitGo](https://cointelegraph.com/news/paypal-rumored-to-be-eying-acquisition-of-crypto-custodian-bitgo) * Thorchain's [tweet on the subject](https://twitter.com/thorchain_org/status/1319402683015458817). * An [interview by Chris Blec](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip7OHz1Gnec) on the [trust bubble youtube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuulLHp0eyXnl9yAao_pbEA) With a Thorchain researcher JR. This is quite in depth, runs for 1 1/2 hours and covers many other topics also. <center>  </center> # Philosophical objections. Thorchain is designed from first principles. It has been built from the ground up and the team have thrown out any pre-conceptions and are trying to build something without any compromises. Philosophically, The team seem to prefer designing their protocol for native BTC as opposed to Wrapped BTC. The belief is that by wrapping BTC, the nature of the asset is fundamentally altered, and the true nature of BTC is lost with the need to trust a third party to custody the BTC, and issue a representation on another chain. The specific mention in their tweet of Paypal as a bad actor, seems to come from a place of general mistrust of mainstream finance and particularly a belief that Paypal is a company not to be trusted. I guess it is along the lines of when Facebook where looking to launch its crypto, this sort of stuff may help adoption, but to the purists it is the mainstream that crypto is trying to fight against, taking over and muscling into the space. Much of what I have seen from the Thorchain team appears to come from a fairly anti-establishment place. They are trying to maintain some anonymity of the team, setting up a protocol with no KYC on the base layer, and wanting the project community run and built, with a group of anonymous nodes running and securing the network. It is designed to ultimately be governance minimal, with everything needed built in to the code. The dev team have even designed in to the project their own obsolescence, with a pathway to full community control over the project - with no "central dev team" or project managers, or however you want to call a central power building the project. Long story short, I feel (and this is just my interpretation - I'm don't have any connection to the team) that Thorchain is being built by a group of anti-establishment dev's, designing a project from first principles, with a belief that native assets are always superior to wrapped assets. They distrust the mainstream, fiat firms trying to muscle in to crypto, and prefer self-custody over centralized custody as a core principle. <center>  </center> If you are reading this post and would like a [LeoFinance](https://leofinance.io/) account to join the conversation, signup is now simple with [account creation via metamask](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@khaleelkazi/xljbobmh). Thanks for reading, JK. <center>  </center> Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@jk6276/why-did-thorchain-tweet-negatively-about-paypal-buying-bitgo)
| author | jk6276 | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| permlink | why-did-thorchain-tweet-negatively-about-paypal-buying-bitgo | ||||||
| category | hive-167922 | ||||||
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| root_title | "Why did Thorchain tweet negatively about Paypal buying BitGo?" | ||||||
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I saw this tweet come out of the Thorchain account and definitely agree with their sentiment. Wrapped coins have their advantages and varying levels of security/decentralization, but these things definitely deserve questioning - especially when you’re talking about billions of USD (which the wBTC market is comprised of). The issue with wBTC is the same as having an issue with a company like Coinbase or Gemini custodying your Bitcoin. It’s anti not your keys, not your crypto. Personally, I think thorchains approach to building native BTC is huge and I’ve been accumulating RUNE around this bet that Thorchain will gain a lot of eyeballs once this goes live and is proven to be robust with relatively large liquidity behind it. An important note of context is that I truly want to use some of the Bitcoins that I have stashed away for DeFi/pool stuff, but I don’t trust wBTC a whole lot. When Thor launches RUNE-BTC, I’ll be one of the first providers with a small amount of my BTC and newly acquired RUNE. P.S. I love these kinds of exchanges on LeoFinance. We’re able to ping each other and bounce ideas back and forth while creating great content that the outside world actually values. Props to you and @rollandthomas 🦁 Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@khaleelkazi/re-jk6276-57ysn3)
| author | khaleelkazi |
|---|---|
| permlink | re-jk6276-57ysn3 |
| category | hive-167922 |
| json_metadata | {"app":"leofinance/0.2","format":"markdown","tags":["hive-167922","leofinance"]} |
| created | 2020-10-25 04:20:15 |
| last_update | 2020-10-25 04:20:15 |
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I definitely think that Thorchains approach to designing their network for native BTC, and building everything without compromise will lead to a major shift over time from other DeFi protocols. Not your keys, not your coins is a fundamental teaching of crypto, and the commitment of the team to those principles gives me more confidence int he project. As soon as the BTC pool is available, and stabilizes, I'll be swapping my BNB over to BTC, and I think that pool, along with a future ETH pool will be big. Another thing that is noteworthy is that Thorchain plan to link to Monero as a priority. Cross chain swaps with XMR as an option will be a unique offering, and one that I don't really see anyone else going after. I was delighted when @rollandthomas asked for my views on this. I was working on a different post at the time, but it can wait a day or two. I'll ping you when it's out, its one you asked for about Thorchain Skittles. Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@jk6276/re-khaleelkazi-717gur)
| author | jk6276 |
|---|---|
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| created | 2020-10-25 14:02:36 |
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Yes i can appreciate your response but i do feel Thorchain has a valid concern. It has less to do with whether or not Paypal can be trusted . It has much to do with wrapped btc doesn't take place on the bitcoin chain. So it's many conundrums with this sort of thing. It's many philosophical issues. Such as, what exactly is bitcoin doing? lol. Well bitcoin isn't doing anything it's just sitting there. However it's catapult to store of value historicaly passes by many elements that create store of value. For example like usefulness and practicality as touched on by economist Menger to which those things don't quite come to mind due to fees.. difficultly of use and waste. So the issue with Paypal is that first it's a closed loop system. Paypal is not really trading btc as much as it's buying and dumping it as soon as it gets it for fiat to convert to usd for merchants. So the merchants never actually receive the btc nor leave the paypal system. So next the question becomes well then why not just use Paypal cryptocurrency for everything as that's basically what you're doing anyway. Now in a practical sense we understand the depth of the marketing and attention value Paypal to a degree is giving over to bitcoin. However i don't really think people will go great bitcoin is greater than paypal. I think much like the situation with libra coin.. it was going to be oh paypal and libracoin is jus ta more useful money we can do something with. At the very rudimentary level of what bitcoin is. .is within the measurement of usefulness which is why bitcoin cash and bitcoin had this huge fork issue based on what is bitcoin? Is bitcoin some type of digital currency as explained in the white paper or is it what they are saying it is today just some convenient speculative device we call store of value to park money in and hope the price just keeps going up due to its scarcity or deflationary quality but we can still see a tremendous philosophical issue with that can't we? So why is bitcoin doing so well. I think we have underestimated the power of good branding and network effect we get a similar thing with facebook. The problem is it's quite possible to find a more usable social network with more features as we do than facebook. However the longer this goes on the less likely it becomes facebook will remain dominant in social media. Which is why it diversified so much due to losing popularity. The biggest divide some estimate to be the woke consciousness of millenials preferring btc to gold. The issue is millenials also are woke on climate change and green energy and waste and the environment. A future btc doesn't seemingly serve those interest. I still see a future where cryptocurrency will have to back its value in human capital assets if it's not going to be tangible assets like gold. Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@mykos/re-jk6276-6o6roy)
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I really appreciate your reply, it is probably a more than worthy post in its own right. On a purist level, the Thorchain attitude is spot on. Anything that alters the nature of the Bitcoin is a weakening of its fundamental properties. It is true, as you say that the use case of BTC is questionable, there are many Crypto's that are far more practicle as a means of exchange. But thanks to the network effect, combined with scarcity and recognition, BTC is still king. Trusting PayPal, or any other business run for profit, to custody a large amount of it is a worry. A similar worry in my eyes to having banks "look after" billions of their customers money. I think that once Thorchain enable native BTC as a supported asset, the project will gain massive traction. There is a common belief, as Khal highlights in his comment, that Native BTC is preferable to a WBTC, or other versions on other chains. The ability to LP BTC with RUNE, and enable swaps across chains easily, will take the project to the next level. They have built the project with this goal in mind, and I know many people are in the same position as Khal, just waiting till BTC is live. PayPal buying into BitGo may be a bullish sign for crypto, but is WBTC safe as a consequence? Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@jk6276/re-mykos-4g4urc)
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Yes i'm mostly a video guy. So i'm more audio visual but i wanna summarize my video points into my posting. So here i understand people prefer text format and i like to latch on to the interesting subjects and comment on them. You got me thinking with the question you posed " Is wbtc safe " with the paypal positioning in this space. This statement as well i found pretty interesting But thanks to the network effect, combined with scarcity and recognition, BTC is still king. How important is brand and network effect? Well from what we see with bitcoin it's pretty darn important. So let me try to push it out a bit. Bitcoin has some type of romanticism? narrative.. a really good story. The story is so good people just wanna be in bitcoin. I don't think they're much worried about censorship resistance. I don't think they are concerned about utility beyond the idea of a store of value as a utility within the idea of a utility lol.. I mean did bitcoin just hit right on good branding? Well it would seem from the beginning bitcoin had many good stories right? Freedom from oppressive governments. Can get rich overnite. Complete privacy which was confused with anonymity As it's private but not anonymous. However the best story is it being a speculative device that just goes up in value. So here's the overall point i think. Are products like a paypal cryptocurrency going to be useful? Yes, very useful means a turn in how we conduct global remittance on a huge scale. Are products like Facebook libracoin yes. If the bitcoin ledger is itself identifiable on the chain as to what accounts have what in them. Why do we need to move the crypto at all? if that makes sense? So i'm involved in a project we're experimenting now with something we call free cefi which talks about arbitrage of multichain coins where it's all a closed end loop and its many reasons why it would probably work well that way. Paypal is basically going to be closed loop as well. An interesting topic came up on another post about cefi.. and here's the link where i go into detail a bit about it... not sure if it will work but i find it interesting nevertheless lol.. https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@mykos/re-nickyhavey-79bgkq I would conclude and say i think it's going to come down to. If you believe something has to be useful to be valuable. So wbtc occuring on another network and paypal in a closed loop system. I would suggest bitcoin is probably not safe. If you believe that network and brand effect can carry a product we may have a prosperous future with bitcoin for a long time. When bitcoin forked with bitcoin cash i felt those were valid issues raised. So this may end up being a situation where the market decides. I do feel we're standing on shaky ground. I don't trust millenials lol. So will be quite interesting to see how this plays out. Thanks for your response. Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@mykos/re-jk6276-rtj1x)
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https://twitter.com/JohnKeo58416448/status/1320183566571978752
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Thanks @jk6276, that helped alot...Mainstream once in now because they see the writing on the wall and they will elbow their way in because they have the capital to do it. Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/hive-167922/@rollandthomas/re-jk6276-5aitgp)
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