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Time To Wake Up and Fix Steem's Voting Problem by kevinwong

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· @kevinwong · (edited)
$555.01
Time To Wake Up and Fix Steem's Voting Problem
<center>![MOSHED-2018-5-25-20-28-57.jpg](https://ipfs.busy.org/ipfs/QmPzLsW96q299zAVoQEh2fag4JZzb4bFoQddRZHqntbiny)
</center>

# Enough is enough!

I'm not an economist by trade, but I'm a [design-thinker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_thinking) at heart. The game is to learn, experiment, think, and tinker with stuff. With some of my limited experience dealing with application projects from infancy to maturity, I'd say that mass user behaviour is usually an initially-unpredictable beast that must observed diligently over time, and then tamed later for the good of whatever platform they're operating in. 

<center>![user-experience-vs-design.jpeg](https://ipfs.busy.org/ipfs/QmT2feEYu5eDciztDTBCWm8Z9MMHwJXMp8kHwAaQfWcKyR)
</center>


While promoting culture X, Y, and Z may matter in changing behaviour, I'd say that UI/UX design is much more important, especially when it comes to the alignment of economic incentives after discussing with @trafalgar over the past few months.

If you've been using Steem for the past two years, you'd probably feel that Steem is on the precipice of something great. It has the shape of a gifting economy, a speedramp for cryptocurrency worldwide domination. But it's not working as well as it could be because now most users accumulating their own votes, instead of giving them out to actual contributors. And it would seem that some think it really requires account-based voting along with some cultural shift for any changes to take place.

I'm here to say that stake-based voting can be salvaged and improved for Steem's universality as an open, permissionless platform. Every account has people behind them after all, and stakes are just as good, if not better measure of identity for a massive community.

# Make voting great again!

I've discussed about Steem's lopsided economic incentives before in [here](https://busy.org/@kevinwong/distributing-wealth-should-be-equally-profitable) and [here](https://busy.org/@kevinwong/embracing-linear-equality-on-steem-unlearning-the-sucker-and-maximising-the-arsehole-in-me). But the point that I want to drive can perhaps be better illustrated through the following classic [trolley problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem):-

![classictrolley.png](https://ipfs.busy.org/ipfs/QmaZozgD2MndUPPsPrc3wDY29XaFGWdBaf8YPTHyX1r17Q)

Kill one or kill five? Obviously, most will choose to kill one. This is exactly every voter's binary situation on Steem: either vote oneself or vote others. Due to Steem's skewed economic incentives for self voters (or vote sellers, traders, exchangers, etc which are all effectively the same thing to maximise SP accumulation), most will choose not too sacrifice too much and reserve more votes for themselves.

There's mental energy in economic decision-making here, even if you've read through a post and found it highly valuable and deserving. Because there's a huge sacrifice in voting others, if compared to self voting. Check out page 28 of Steem's [whitepaper here](https://steem.io/SteemWhitePaper.pdf). I think whatever the paper claims is failing massively at this point in time. **Tipping or gifting doesn't mean anything if we vote on ourselves**!

In fact, the mental energy in making a decision is so huge in the classic trolley problem that it has been proven that it makes most people freeze as well, preferring not to do anything about the situation instead. Check out [VSauce](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6nSFpj9HTCZ5t-N3Rm3-HA)'s real life experiment of the trolley problem. ***It’s a highly recommended watch***:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sl5KJ69qiA

**But surely it's a major waste of time to go around encouraging people to change their voting behaviour and singing songs about a better culture on Steem when our situation is as shitty as the classic trolley problem?** Either kill one or kill five. So the change that needs to happen can be illustrated by modifying the situation:-

![moderntrolley.png](https://ipfs.busy.org/ipfs/QmTArjuoHHEiSLkXuk7oqqeUapooWEDVo5inzUWeTVQ7kT)

Now, this is more like it! Kill five.. or five. Screw the classic trolley problem and turn it into a non-problem. Make things more or less an equal sacrifice / advantage no matter how one votes. This is the whole point of what I'm trying to say in one of my recent posts here: https://busy.org/@kevinwong/distributing-wealth-should-be-equally-profitable

But of course, the total advantage of 100% reclaiming one's votes is always going to be there unlike as idealised in the image above. But my point here is to change the economic incentives in a way that doesn't seem like a super huge disadvantage for curators / distributors like what we have on Steem now.

# Not everybody is a motherbleeping bestselling author, especially not all the time!

In fact, the network could use more curation works. Now most users are just posting whatever and accumulating to no end, encouraging spammy behaviour. And please, even if your posts are consistently highly valued in trending, it doesn't mean your content is actually good or if you're a great content creator. Do not delude yourself, especially if you've been selling your soul to do so.

This is why the economic incentives need to change. People are going to try to maximise their earnings anyway, so it's better to balance the system more for curation so that less people will create shitposts around the clock for the purpose of maximising their position. Of course, contributors planning to accumulate SP will post as usual. My point is to have those with good amounts of SP spend more time curating than creating posts to vote themselves (or trading their votes, etc which will all mostly and eventually end up going to those doing the same thing).

# Let me give you a taste of how much I've been losing out since mid-2017
I'm still operating more or less the same as before because I believe that we can grow the network simply by curating and voting more outwardly than inwardly. It's just plain economics of network effects. At [this point in time](https://steemworld.org/@kevinwong), I'm effectively earning ~1,100 Steem Dollars, which is only ~15% of my **minimum potential earnings for having about 200k SP**, just because I'm trying to grow the network by distributing to others instead of myself. 

That's me missing out on an extra ~9,000 Steem Dollars per month. But I'm not the only one here and I'm surely nowhere near the ones that are sacrificing the most. There are more users working for the greater good, much more than I ever could, but earning much lesser than most. Surely such an economic system can't be taken seriously in the long run.

I can't do this forever, knowing that I'm making a huge sacrifice. I've only started calculating this recently and to be honest, it's unbearable to be the sucker. My asian father will tell me that I'm being stupid. Top Steem witnesses tend to be okay with their "sacrifice" because they're already earning a handsome amount maintaining their nodes. 

But I'm not a witness, like 99.999% of the rest of us on Steem, although admittedly I had it much easier as a content creator back in 2016. Regardless, my position is maybe ~25-40% bought in with my own money. Imagine what it's like for the rest of us. Nobody's going to be the sucker forever. The system needs to be de-suckerified to some extent.

If I'm being honest and think about my experience of Steem for the past year, it certainly has become way more stressful and shitty, probably because of this lopsided incentive that promotes some kinda arms-race behaviour and experience. It's not healthy, and something has definitely changed fundamentally since HF Equality. I don't think I'm alone in feeling this, it's just that I'm a late bloomer as usual.

<center>![MOSHED-2018-5-25-20-30-14.jpg](https://ipfs.busy.org/ipfs/QmZqSm6iggUXmoHcwiUk57gUq3gM9B5G5D97hD5yH1QRFk)
</center>


So I'm sticking with my position as previously expressed here: https://busy.org/@kevinwong/distributing-wealth-should-be-equally-profitable that could likely close the gap. So dear developers, some of us have already solved the puzzle and hope to have reasoned it out well enough over and over again. 

Some may say it's taking a cut from content creators, but I'd beg to differ because the game will change and may even improve Steem's position in the cryptocurrency landscape. All it takes is just 20 more IQ points, guys. Time to end this madness and make Steem great again! 

I hope we all don't need to start selling 100% of our votes just to make a point here. I may even keep repeating this same post until the developers get that it's urgent AF. I think waiting for SMTs to solve this puzzle is a bad idea.

Image source: [1](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c2/c7/d1/c2c7d131867814f9d591c57b92645906.jpg) - [2](https://ssli.ebayimg.com/images/g/8SwAAOSwHnFV120m/s-l640.jpg) - [3](https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/selectall/2016/08/09/09-trolley.w710.h473.jpg) - [4](https://guycooksondotcom.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/user-experience-vs-design.jpeg)

---

<center><sub>Follow me @kevinwong</sub></center>

πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 811 others
πŸ‘Ž  ,
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@abh12345 · (edited)
$0.73
Agreed and resteemed.  

Keep re-posting this one daily.

Incoming unorthodox approach:

![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmXg7NTq9YxtoZmJQ97F5rPffGF8my3eEuqMRPHq6xrcKk/image.png)

Personally, I don't give a shit what the code says is the best approach to maximize stake, and I'm still holding on to this, by a thread, but still holding - because this:

> If you've been using Steem for the past two years, you'd probably feel that Steem is on the precipice of something great. It has the shape of a gifting economy, a speedramp for cryptocurrency worldwide domination.

Our witness cannot lobby for the changes you seek (at 94 in the ranks), but me and my 800 kabillion vests can at least disapprove via the selections/non-selections of those that currently can.
πŸ‘  ,
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@kevinwong ·
$0.08
How about a different google translate of this post everyday? lol. Damn i just find it hard to do. But i think i really need to make a point soon, while getting that free steem 24/7. It's just stupid to have an economy that pays whenever someone shits in public
πŸ‘  
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@abh12345 ·
Sounds like a plan.  Or just the key points, summarized more and more until all you have left is a 😱 worth $200 :)
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@acidyo ·
$1.23
>If you've been using Steem for the past two years

Liar, your cakeday is tomorrow! xD
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@phoneinf ·
What is a cakeday? Birthday haha? Btw... I helped my Finnish friend get a Steemit account! His name is @atelier on Steemit. Go say hi to him! If you write something in Finnish to him I'm sure that it will give him a shock haha.
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@alangrant ·
I don't 100% agree with everything you said. But I agree that the existing system shouldn't be thought of as OK or acceptable. It hasn't felt like either for me for a long time. I don't like spending lots of time and energy on a good quality post only to have it get no time, no attention and no votes. It's very discouraging, and it needs to change. Or Steemit might just meander forever but not get better.
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@aldentan ·
$0.57
Work hard --- > More Followers ---> More rewards. That should be the goal imo.

It's from the traditional realm of blogging/marketing/business, but that's the way it should be.
πŸ‘  
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@alexasteemit ·
I agree, i agree, i agree and i agree too!
Excelent post, very original.
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@amberlamps ·
Unfortunately, this is why Dan Larimer left Steem, because the system is inherently flawed, and to change it is practically impossible. Hopefully with EOS he has actually managed to solve all the issues that plague both bitshares and Steem.  Dan has already basically said he is going to build a Steemit 2.0 on EOS. Love Steem, but hate the manipulation and faults in the economic model.
Thanks for this post, at least it gets attention and maybe we can come up with a solution.
πŸ‘  
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@aminur87 ·
I'm a new user of this Social Media Platform. Just 35 days ago I have joined this platform. So I do not have much knowledge about this platform. But in the short time which I understood, I can say that some changes should be made on the Steam Voting and the Rewards System. Because at the same time it is a social media, on the other hand a mining source. Currently the purpose of mining is being fulfilled but not the social media. The change may be that self-voting and vote sealing should be stopped. At the same time, the rate of return of voters and author will be changed. Reward ratios may be 50/50. The voters and author will get 50% and 50% respectively. If someone give vote on his own content, then no one can get reward. This will be a real assessment of the good content. Then the purpose of social media will be fulfilled here. Otherwise it would never be the option of Facebook. On the other hand, the possibility of a new user being successful in the current system is so difficult. Because for everyone, it is not possible to invest a big amount. However, the Steemit Authority will take such a change that it can actually become a social media. This is entirely my personal opinion. Thank you all.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@anyasiemmanuel ·
Sir, you have a big heart not every whale do what you do. You have motivated many steemians like me to do the beat by keep improving so as to get your reward. I share the same opinion as you not because I only want to benefit if things changes but because of the fact that we all owe this platform a debt to succeed. If a steemian whale can't make a post that is deserving he should encourage others who stay awake all night just to make few dollars. Steemit is just two years with one million plus users, it is still a growing baby who till have a lot to offer to everyone on the platform. Thank you
πŸ‘  
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@arbazalam · (edited)
Wow what an amazing content and i think it is most important to promote steemit by giving upvote to people who had made quality post but now days.I really cannot seen.As i had been here for 5 and half month i had notice some people were getting upvote as well as me but now how much i try i could only get maximum 5 or 4 votes.Yeah there may be some post that would had not been great but i know few good enough.I had been getting a lot upvote by commenting in the past but i couldn't get that much as i am at school from 7 am to 7 pm so i could comment only few and when i post a post i couldn't get upvote.I really want to make post but when there no upvote sometime it feel really bad but i don't give up i manage and making post.I have only 1 cent upvote value so i couldn't do much with it.I loved your post and i really fan of your ideas and your sense of humor.Thank you for this content.
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@arcange ·
Congratulations @kevinwong!
Your post was mentioned in the [Steemit Hit Parade](https://steemit.com/hit-parade/@arcange/daily-hit-parade-20180525) in the following categories:

* Comments - Ranked 3 with 254 comments
* Pending payout - Ranked 3 with $ 645,33
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@arckrai ·
$1.04
I think it would be really interesting introducing a 100% curation system. In my mind I see thousands of people scouring the page looking at posts with low exposure and earnings and filling the curation gap that we need.

However I feel like this would also lead to even more spam being promoted due to the fact people will try and fin any post just to gain that 100% curation award and what better place to go than some spam post, but all in all I think it would be better than those purely upvoted themselves.

I don't know how well this could work but could we have a different way in enabling your voting power. This will consist of curating other people's content to up your voting power which will then give the ability to upvote your own posts if needed. Forcing people to curate to in the end be rewarded with some power to vote for a post they have done.

I hope we find a way to incentivise people to join the team of long term prosperity rather than short term gains. If we do turn to an 100% curation model do you think it would be good if a portion of that was burned? I feel as if people sooner or later will jump ship taking their profits rather than staying long term fearing the growing supply.

Everyone has this greed to earn money. I'm glad high quality people like you exist but you have whales equally as big who shit post and they get huge peer engagement since people will try every avenue to make money. We will have to be forced to curate or behave in line which is better for the platform since no one has the power to suppress their greed.

Nonetheless thank you for being selfless @kevinwong for the long the long term prosperity of the platform breeding the new kevinwongs of the future. (Hopefully)
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@arfat392 ·
You can not find me in crowds of so many people Still commenting. You want to be a celebrity like you. I do not know a small person, I do not want to be like you, but pray for my younger brother.
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@arsalanahmed ·
A  great initiative ill defiantly spread your post thanks for sharing resteemd
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@artwithflo ·
$0.90
Great post Kevin! I hope Steemit will improve and get more interesting for a larger audience. I try to get people to join, but they all just seem lost right away and overwhelmed by the complexity.
I'm not sure about that self voting system, are those people just commenting and upvoting themselves? It wouldn't even cross my mind.

For me right now, Steemit is a very small portion of my income and enables me, for some part, to keep making painting tutorials for my followers.
Right now it seems like most of my genuine and interested followers are following me on Instagram and YouTube and people here are just following me for the money.

This could be such a wonderful platform, promoting althruism. I hope to see it grow into that in the future (hopefully the _near_ future!)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
$0.06
Not everyone's like us, and more will be enticed by economic benefits, which is as right as anything else. I hope my point is clear that we should align economic incentives to benefit activities that add to the platform, not the ones that take away from the experience..

Me too, i hope things will improve. Thanks for dropping by @artwithflo :)
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@artwithflo ·
$0.30
Well, I'm sure it should be possible!
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@ayijufridar ·
$0.59
Another touching discussion and idealism. I think, this is not just a discussion about the confrontation between business interests VS ideological interests. But it also concerns a system where I do not have the capacity to comment on it. I really enjoy this post and comment some people. It describes everyone's position in this platform.
πŸ‘  
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@kevinwong ·
What do you think about Steemit a long time ago vs now?
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@ayijufridar ·
I used to often get the attention of Steemians from different countries without the need to buy. I also do the same thing by curating their posts. I really feel part of the international Steem community.

Now it is very difficult to get that. I miss the atmosphere as it used to be where there is no limit between one Steemian and another Steemian even from different countries and continents.

A few people now continue the tradition of friendship and community as it once was. Most see Steemit only from business interests.
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@kevinwong ·
What do you think about Steemit a long time ago vs now?
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@blackvapor ·
stinc needs to do something.  I would like to see the results of the 50/50 curation in effect.
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@blazing ·
that just didn't seem to be happening at all the big players are enjoying it :/
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@bluefoxy ·
I think most people care about themselves first. Why would most people sacrifice income if they don't have to. Like if we were cavemen and steem currencies were our animal for dinner i think to survive we wouldn't share it. Unless among friends. To solve this problem should be to increase the reward pool maybe add another currency to boost earnings for smaller accounts. Something only paid out by another action screen time or something.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@bosun ·
Lets make steemit great again people like you helping the minnow grow
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@krischik ·
Minnow already have 1 million VEST / 500 steem power  β€” they have already arrived. The real problem is with plankton.

New accounts which join, see that there vote is worth 0.001 STEEM and leave again. Most likely for an social media site account-based voting, Like for Minds, where there vote is worth something.
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@krischik · (edited)
deleted @busy.org made another duplicate.
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@brianphobos ·
$0.93
I have a ton of thoughts about this situation STEEM has been on the verge of something great since I first found out about it 2 years ago but it has never quite reached it.  The technology is there  but it never quite is coming together.   

In the end it served its purpose.  The founders, early investors, and ninja miners got rich.   A few others got lucky and made a solid chunk of money.  Some circle jerkers made a solid return.   

For a lot of people it became a time trap and for people in the 3rd world it became a new hope and even with just a little success it has the ability to change their situation.   

STEEM is both the greatest thing ever and the most poorly executed great idea ever.   

The only thing that saves me from insanity on here is the fact that I always tried to stay more diversified.   Every time I thought about just powering all my crypto up into STEEM I told myself NOOOOOOO.   

If I had more resources I would clone the code and start fresh with no ninja mine / unfair distribution and see what happens.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@careassaktart ·
I've read this whole post of yours & I find it quite interesting. I consider my posts as good-quality posts but I'm still not getting as much votes as I would like to get. On the contrarary, I'm giving away many of my votes to others whos posts I like. As I remember, I still haven't self-voted not a single time yet cause it seems amoral to me...
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@cmplxty ·
Great post. I still don’t fully understand the platform since I came here from a Facebook mindset; like everything you want, comment and share as often as you can to increase your followers and audience. I’m still learning that these might not be the best way to do things here on Steemit but I find it strange to not like someone’s post that I’ve read. I have liked a few of my own posts but that’s mainly because I’m so low on the totem pole that I just want to increase my Steem power however I can until I get 1 full SP
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@cryptkeeper17 ·
$0.60
This is such a great point and thank you again for bringing it up.  I feel that having a curation cut of 1/3 author, 2/3 curation, 1% burn on SBD.  Everyone is a fan.  Not everyone has dynamic blogging talent.  Why not reward the excellent blogger/contributor and make it more of a market base of fans that get to say "I liked that before everyone else did?"  You are going more with what is natural free will of what the user ultimately wants?  Also, if you have a "cooling period," kind of like when you get to a live auction block.  Everyone gets to see what is for sale prior to the auction, and then it goes live.  After one day then it is live.  Almost having a gray period when the post is released and is even eligible to be voted.  The self vote would be also virtually nullified it you made a minimum curation amount on any vote, starting it at say 10% that is mandated to go into the curation pool of any post or comment, and then start the curation curve then on.  All of that is a bit of pipe dream I know, but I am in agreement the 0 min vote maybe needs to go altogether?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
$0.03
Interesting suggestion, thinking about it :)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@cryptkeeper17 · (edited)
Thanks for humoring my rant.  Facebook and just about every other tech giant is built on the tendency of people being sheep (fan boys and girls) has worked out pretty well for them.  If we went to more of a model of "fans wanted, plus dynamic creators of content a bonus," versus "creators of content wanted [just along as they follow all the unwritten rules, and will give people a tiny bit back to those that are big enough and like the right stuff also]."
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@crypto-econom1st ·
$0.58
This is actually one of the first times that I see a long term user, an orca, saying that this economic system can't be taken seriously in the long run. Normally in the economist that tries to make this clear. And I got answers like go complaining somewhere else red-fish. What Steemonians basically say with this is that there are no ethical rules on Steemit. That's at least how I interpret their reaction.

Having this said I wonder if the wealth distribution can be solved? If you change anything the trolley issue will just be different. Don't you think the large accounts will then adjust there behavior?

And to my opinion it's not only the distribution but also the current ownership. Less then 1% owns 80% or more of the SP. You could even say that basically a few whales control Steemit. Sounds really decentralized πŸ˜‹

About SMT'S, I bet those will make Steemit more attractive, but won't solve current issues. But if you see Steem as crypto currency and the crypto market will go up, then Steem will most likely go up as well. No matter what issues there are.

Do you really believe this could be solved somehow?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@cryptopie ·
$0.87
This system works for me although I don't buy votes or sell for that matter just because some people frown on it and it feels like I was betraying them if I do such vote buying-selling. I have no idea how this system would improve but it is a big help for me personally, steemit is a life-saver @kevinwong
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@cryptorg ·
$1.16
I think the change needs to come from someone like you or someone that has the POWER high enough in order to have a word to say in the community. If it was me that I would propose something like this probably it will fade pretty fast and only a LEADER can drive the change.
But, I will support it for sure! It is in the human nature to do things for himself but without all of us involving we will never make GREAT THINGS.
So, start the revolution and I will be in the first lines!
<img src="http://www.azquotes.com/vangogh-image-quotes/51/82/Quotation-William-James-The-greatest-revolution-of-our-generation-is-the-discovery-that-51-82-54.jpg"/>
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@cryptosharon ·
Awesome documentary! I didn't know about it and it's super cool. I love mind experiments. :) Thanks for sharing.
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@cupofcoco321 ·
So, exactly what is voting?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@dali.soh ·
$0.29
I guess you pretty much sum up the entire steemit landscape. Things have to change for sure. Honestly, I can't add better comments than to just agree with you. It takes courage to self-sacrifice for the greater good. But not everybody is going to self-sacrifice since there's potentially no reward for that. Things have to change......
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@dandesign86 ·
$2.69
So if i understand everything correctly, you want to make curating more profitable than self voting. How much percent would one have to get back of the voting amount to do that?

Im very happy you are pushing this issue because what will be the point in the end if we all self upvote and we focus on our self 100 percent, that is not very social.. But unfortunately that is mostly the case right now.
πŸ‘  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@kevinwong ·
$0.05
Oh doesn't have to be completely more profitable than self voting, just need to close in on the wide gap..
πŸ‘  ,
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@dandesign86 ·
$0.08
Got it - thanks !
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@phoneinf ·
$0.30
It's already more profitable to curate since you build up good relationships with other humans. This is clearly the best in the long run. Since it's something real. You are buying more time by investing in humans. And time is limited.
πŸ‘  ,
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@dandesign86 ·
$0.15
Good argument - I agree
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@danielwong ·
Thanks for making the sacrifices and if I were in your position I can't guarantee I wouldn't be self-voting as well. You're really doing something great although stuff like that on an eco-system that Steem currently has isn't gonna have much reciprocation. 

Minnows like myself definitely 100% gets benefit more from Steemians like you compared to self-voters like "the great crypto analyst".

Things must change and I pray it happens sooner rather than later.
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@danilpan ·
This was a super good read, definitely an issue that needs more attention. I’m a new user to steem and this acts as a big obstacle in the platform’s success. We need to be able to feel a necessity in backing other users, not just looking after our own backs. 

Posted using Partiko iOS, join the beta testing program [here](https://goo.gl/forms/tBhlrSiG1LYOMAZM2)
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@dber ·
Well put man - I can't believe how much value you're missing out on attempting to healthify the ecosystem here. It does seem like a change is in order, although whether it happens or not is anyones guess.
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@deathcloud ·
I think this voting system need to change or need to have some kind of limit(or consequences) if used for self votes too much.

For example : 
User A make 10 post everyday and upvote all his post by himself.

Some changes like this will be good i think : 
If a user upvote his post more than 3 times a month, when he upvote his post the fourth times, there's a warning to tell him not to upvote his post anymore. 

If he still upvote his post, then start from the fourth times, his steem power and reputation exp will go down 1% from his max steem power + rep exp and his upvote value will become $0. So every self votes he did will decrease his steem power + rep exp 1% every votes.

In order to be able to upvote his post again, he need to wait 1 month.

When he upvote other people post, his vote value will temporary become $0 for 1 month.

So with system like this, I guess people will think carefully when they want to self votes.
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@defc0n1 ·
I've been on steemit since March, and I think there's a ton of potential here. I appreciate that someone with your steem rank is attempting to talk about this. I see most people in your position just upvoting themselves or getting other whales to upvote them. I find that my biggest issue is that I can put in more time than most whales and receive very little compensation for my time and effort. If I stream for 24hrs straight I receive  a dlive upvote (where most of the SBD and SP comes from). Then a bunch of smaller votes. Whereas a whale can make a post and upvote it himself and end up with 1000 SBD. Now I understand I haven't been on the platform very long and I need to "pay my dues", but that's just absurd. A whale can make 10 posts, upvote them and make thousands of dollars in under 10mins of effort. I love this platform, unfortunately the only issue is balance. 

https://i.imgflip.com/20zeze.jpg
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@denisgo ·
Awesome post! for all those crypto and tech enthusiast: I made this image with the 3D Steem logo so you can use it in your cryptocurrency posts! here's the [link to my post](https://steemit.com/art/@denisgo/3d-steem-quality-logo-for-your-cryptocurrency-post)  
images are clean and completely free! just make sure to upvote! have a nice one!

![STEEM SBD.jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmcYDW23P3DNsycL4EFiNztgUTDmKgiCdvMHczKHCqqz9d/STEEM%20SBD.jpg)
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@dksart ·
In my opinion two things need to be done to fix the problem of wealth distribution on this blockchain.  The blockchain software would have to be modified.

First, only allow one 100% vote by one account on another account every 24 hours, so basically you can only give yourself one vote every 24 hours and you can only give any other account one vote every 24 hours.

Second, automated voting needs to be eliminated, this could only be done with some sort of captcha system to ensure only a human is voting on a post/comment.

I suppose I could write a more detailed post on the economic impact this would have on the blockchain, if you are interested in reading something like that let me know...?
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@doktarufas ·
Isn't voting yourself redundant?
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@donkeypong ·
$0.73
This is a valuable contribution to the discussion. I don't think that linear needs to be changed, but we need to continue looking at ways to make things better.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong · (edited)
After considering the matter, I'd put it this way: both linear and n^2 is making us orbit too close or too far away from the Sun, which is also similarly expressed by the trolley problem. We can search for ways to make things better but it's a very steep battle uphill.. or downhill. We can orbit around the Goldilocke's zone, which we can find.
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@smooth ·
For example?
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@ats-david ·
Don’t hold your breath while waiting for one.
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@egotheist ·
$0.03
> I may even keep repeating this same post until the developers get that it's urgent AF

I cannot help but thinking, that the current situation may actually be quite profitable for the developers. You said it yourself: you're losing out on quite much each month - just by being a decent guy and trying to help others. 
The current system seems to be a golden goose for those with high SP (and the developers are some of these people) - so why would they kill the golden goose? Sure, times may change, Steemit may become irrelevant at some point, but until then, one can keep the money flowing and cash out, when it falls apart. 
The incentive to avoid changing the status quo is just too high right now.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@mistermercury ·
Ah yes, follow the money. There must be some reason why those that can change things are not doing so. At the top of the list is incentive. But maybe that is the cynical, but realistic view. Perhaps they believe in anarchy and view this as some social experiment (nah, don't think so), or perhaps they can't agree on what changes to make (nah, not that either), or they thinks some other adjustments (SMT's?) will  fix things (nah too smart to think that), or ... who knows? Sure would like to know their minds however. In the meantime we have good posts such as this one that help us all understand a problem and work toward a solution. 

I don't think it will be long in coming, however, that someone takes advantage of the new EOS  system and creates a evolved "Steemit", that will be a sad day but perhaps that is the way of things. 

Appreciate your clear thinking. Blessings.
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@elderson · (edited)
I agree with you. there will be an SMT that weeds out high paying investors that can afford to hire someone to make a posting bot or people seeing their following base somehow. I've known users who stopped posting because of this. Well, enhancements are always going to be needed. But at the same time, we should take time to read new posts we voting instead of just paying attention to trending ones and doing an "upvoting scan" as I call it
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@eroche ·
$1.03
This is a wonderful discussion and much needed. Here are my two cents

The reward curve is one lever and is much discussed about tackling voting behaviour, I don't know if n2 or n or any other shape is better we had problems with n2 but it may help if people discussed alternative solutions more. Your second picture says it all.

The issues we are trying to solve is enrichment of content on Steemit and fairer rewards for posts. There are ways we can tackle this within the current system parameters and maybe we need to try some more initiatives. 

There has to be some incentive for voting for other people. 
How about a voting bot that rewards people who spread their vote. For every 100 votes you get a big upvote from a whale account or you get on a curation trail from whale accounts? It could be fairly easily calibrated to detect spam voting accounts or automated accounts. Whales could delegate to it. 


The more we can encourage manual voting also the better. 
We could make a bot that rewards people who manually vote in a similar way by adding them to a whale curation trail.

They are just two half baked ideas but we really get lost in the weeds by spending so much energy talking about the system and the incentives. I would love to change the conversation.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
To quote traf, now we have an economy that is paying people $1000 everytime they take a dump on the streets while we have a mayor that thinks building skyscrapers to attract tourists is the answer. Nothing wrong with skyscrapers - it just takes time. Plus the tourists are and will be arriving at a smelly street filled with dump all over, which is why Steemit's web ranking has been slipping away.

If we think about the situation mathematically, n^2 is basically a "tax" on the long-tail under linear rewards, which gets transferred into the top end thereby creating a clear consensus and contrast based on stake-weighted voting. That's basically sacrificing many individuals for the collective. This is the reason why we thought to try something out between linear and n^2 to balance things out. There are a bit of some other tweaks proposed by @trafalgar (check the comment).

Some may say we shouldn't change the fundamental design (of rewards) and add better "offchain" solutions to minimise the trolley problem, including the sentiment that there are no magical numbers that can fix the problem. I think there is a magical region, just like how our planet is in the Goldilocke's zone. Maybe Steem is flying too close to the sun at the moment lol.
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@feelsomoon ·
Voting will always be a problem. A change is welcome but there are two sides yo a coin. Some will like it. Others will hate it. I am not really into social media so I just go with the flow on these topics. I just like to stay informed and see different opinions.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@fionasfavourites ·
$0.55
I did not know that a vote for one's self was worth more than a vote fro someone else. Given the purported ethos of @steemit, that is counter intuitive. I admit to not reading all the blurb, and that I probably should, but having limited time to spend here, I haven't. 

I have been thinking a great deal about curation and what really is quality content, especially since I was picked out by @curie and was featured on @arcange's hit parade.  Now, @kevinwong, I have even more food for thought. 
Thank you
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Yes, good thing we have curation groups like that. Instead of bidbots profitting so much from the currrent economy, it should be curation guilds instead that's actually putting in the work. My proposal could shift things that way and make curation guilds something stakeholders would want to support.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@fionasfavourites ·
$0.29
@kevinwong I like the idea of curation guilds.  Please do keep us posted on developments?<br/><div class="pull-right"><sub><a href="https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@roxane/fast-reply-v0-1-never-miss-to-answer-a-comment-again-and-do-it-faster-than-ever">Sent with Fast-Reply</a></sub></div>
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@firozdiu ·
Hello Dear, 

I have already upvoted You; Please back me upvote and follow for success each other's.

# [My New Post](https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@firozdiu/earn-free-cps-coin-just-for-sign-up-free-free-free)





Best Regards

@firozdiu


[![follow-me.gif](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmY84qQR9fQVYHWUY2Zo1dcUM4168QoqmWoAtyoHavPXEB/follow-me.gif)](https://steemit.com/@firozdiu/)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@fitzgibbon ·
$1.17
Hey Kevin! 

I consider you one of the Steem OGs. I could say all kinds of things here, like, remember what Steem already gave you, don't lose hope, keep fighting the good fight, etc etc

Please just do one thing for me. Stick around until SMTs are live or until you can run something similar to a SMT easily on EOS. Launch your own community and I will join you.

Yes, the incentives for behaviors must be tweaked to reward quality content creation and curation. Awesome content will lie at the heart of an awesome community.  Tweaking, testing and playing with the settings might give much insights into what works. Until ultimately, the virality of the thing will dominate the online world.

And yet, in the meantime, I can't understand a lot of decisions Steemit and Steem whales make. I hope their choices will lead to long-term profit, but it does often seem short term gain oriented. 

Stick around man, interesting times are still ahead of us.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@fr3eze ·
I think we have reached the maximum effect under current mechanism of system. The linear reward of HF19 is the major cause for everything combined. Folks on this platform has just reached the balance doing what they doing for a profit, some maintaining justice by distributing the wealth around and more busy raping the reward pool for good.

I guess this is exactly we still have every right to call Steem a very big-scale social experiment, and it is still far from becoming the Upotia of self-sustaining decentralised network with current design. Glad to see big stake holders like you are so in concerned with this matter.
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@freebornangel ·
Bring back the n2 with a 500mv cap that slowly increases as dolphins and orcas are born.
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@freiheit50 · (edited)
$0.47
100% agree and upvote!
I'm one of these foolish guys who practice 0% self votes, don't sell votes, don't delegate any SP to boosters, pubish content only if inspiration is coming into my brain, take more time for curating than for publishing.
For these reasons I have found some very good supporters who do the same as @redpalestino, @shaka, @jaki01, @twinner and others. 
I'm very patient regarding the solution you desire. Time will come, I believe!
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@funkit ·
$0.59
I think it's not a question of making Steemit great again, it's a question of making the platform survive.

My neighbors delegate away their stake, which benefits them without doing nothing. In the last couple of months it has shrunk what is left for me significantly. And then there is those who gave up and moved on, selling their stake.

And to be realistic, withdrawing and trading the tokens would be more profitable for me than staying and figuring out a way to float another three months. Only to realize the people I invested my time in sold out.

Steemit was meant to be a social platform. It will end as a failed social experiment without careful thought and incentives for every user, old and new.

I blame hf 19 and I blame greedy entrepreneurs, often disguised as witnesses. It is the end to Steemit as we once knew it without doing something drastic. Because a social platform that honors antisocial behavior will fail in the end.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Yes. Blockchain based social media is basically money introduced into social media, which means there's the trolley problem. Just solve that, and solve most of steem's problems.
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@fury123 ·
Did you have to use trump to convey your point?
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@gamechanger45 ·
Thats right. Please stop botting!!!
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@giddyupngo · (edited)
$0.74
Thanks for writing this @kevinwong, I have been here less than 5 months, and I feel the frustration of trying to earn curation rewards with a small account.  The BEST way to earn with an account my size is to delegate to a voting bot, but I am trying to resist, though I have tried it in the past. I have a solution that I think would really encourage good curation, rather than having lots of people glom onto any post that goes nuclear, regardless of the content.  Here is a quote.
>So here is my proposal. Plankton don't mind voting 100%, but whales do this rarely. Currently 75% of rewards go to the author, and 25% go to the curators. Suppose 2% of the curation reward was carved out and given to the first upvote (who is not the author) when the post is 5 minutes old, at 80% or more Steem power. The author would still get 75%, and the current curation system would apply to 23%, but the 2% would be a sort of "finders reward". Smaller accounts could do this often, but whales not as much because there is more money at stake. I think this would change Steemit for the better overnight.

Here is a link to the full post. https://steemit.com/steemideas/@giddyupngo/if-i-could-change-one-thing-about-steem-better-curation-rewards-for-plankton
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Hmm i've gone through it, doesn't seem like it'll change much. Check out @trafalgar's response in this post. Thing is, our proposal may shift things into favouring curation more, which means curation guilds will be a thing much more than it is now and new users can earn by curating well. Anyway, it's also already available now with @curie (check them out), and will be in greater demand once changes take place :)
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@gladysob ·
completamente de acuerdo, se que va hacer un Γ©xito
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@gre3n ·
I just  want it to be fair to everyone who is on Steemit. I guess that's a very hard thing to accomplish. There's alot of coding and things to work out who knows...PS I been following you for a long time and just noticed I was not a follower odd I never unfollowed you.Keep up the good blogs making me think about a lot of different subjects. Steem on my friend!!!
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@grwd ·
It would be interesting if the author/curator  rewards factored in the amount of self-voting that the post author does. Since it's easy to calculate what percentage of a user's votes are self-votes, authors could potentially get a piece of the total rewards pool proportional with how rarely they self-vote. And returns-oriented curators would be disinclined to spend their votes on chronic self-voters.
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@heymattsokol ·
$2.60
*My point is to have those with good amounts of SP spend more time curating than creating posts to vote themselves*

This is a great point Kevin. Users on Steem are all doing a little bit of everything right now. With stronger incentives it seems way better for whales to have the incentive of truly good curation, which simply doesnt exist now outside of the truest believers.

I refuse to buy votes and I know that I'm in the minority by doing so. I even left Sndbox because I felt like their votes were making up too high a percentage of my earnings. As a small fish who posts 3-4 times per day I'm giving up at least 50% of potential earnings, "against my own interest," kinda like what you describe.

Something has to change because I know most people will simply buy votes if they can do so.

You have my support on this, I will resteem to spread awareness.
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@anthonyadavisii · (edited)
$0.03
> I refuse to buy votes 

You and me both, brother! It is tempting and I believe I do feel the same tension as does @kevinwong to not be the "sucker".

Our type sacrifices to make this platform better yet we are the ones whose relative voting influence will dimish to the likes of rampant self-voters or vote sellers.

It seems a bit hopeless at times which is why my optimism for Steem's sustainability has been on a downward trend. Let's get some Elliot waves on that. I know a guy. ;)

### But in all seriousness...

I hope something drastic changes so hope in this platform is rekindled and economic incentives are modified where being the biggest asshole doesn't equal the biggest payout.
πŸ‘  , ,
πŸ‘Ž  , , , , ,
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vote details (9)
@phoneinf ·
$0.29
Vote selling is fine as long as the votes goes towards quality content.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
$0.03
I don’t think vote trading markets are anything wrong, and it’s impossible for it to go away. It’s just that by acknowledging and removing the trolley problem in voting, things may hopefully get better. I think it’s a very real problem, and those with a good amount of skin in the game know it, instead of brushing it aside. The Vsauce video is quite revealing about what people aspire to be and what they actually do in the end. The problem shouldn’t even be there to begin with, and it’s avoidable in designing Steem.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@heymattsokol · (edited)
$0.29
I think we agree.

To be clear any form of vote "trading" where people can directly purchase votes which give them more money than they spend, seems indisinguishable from a scam to me. Perhaps my economics are not strong enough to see how it isn't a scam, but, then again, when it smells like a duck... IDK how steem can survive if people can "buy money" in such a direct way.

If you mean that there are other forms of vote trading / organization, which are inevitable and ok, and may generate substantial profits for some, I agree that would be fine and good.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@steevc ·
$0.08
I fully support your stance on not buying votes. I give less vote to those who do
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@phoneinf ·
Are you against Google Adsense, Facebook Marketing, Instagram Marketing and Traditional Marketing as well?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@holybranches · (edited)
$0.87
If it is the account-based voting we witnessed on Facebook before coming to steemit, then it. wont. work. 

Ever heard of popularity vote? Yep that's why.

@ned, @sneak you guys should say something about this article: https://busy.org/@kevinwong/distributing-wealth-should-be-equally-profitable

Enough with the deafening silence and dev-speaks you call steemitblog updates! 

Talk to the end-users for once!
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@icosandwhich ·
why not make it easy for everyone to have an abundance of wealth?
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@imlikett ·
$0.60
I am on the fence about self votes. The struggle is real for minnows, and if you finally break through, and your upvote is somewhat substantial, I don't see any problem with self-voting. It's a reward for you effort put in. 
That being said, it should be done within reason. Posting 4 self post a day, and self voting them all seems like abuse. However, as long as you curate and vote others content as well as your own, I don't see the issue.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong · (edited)
Votes are supposed to be freely exercised. Anything goes. The point of this post is to propose change in economic incentives to minimise the trolley problem, which may lead to people being not calculative about where their vote goes. Chances are there are way more better contributions out that deserve votes than our own that could help the platform :) so by removing the trolley problem, people will be more willing to give their votes to someone else.
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@imlikett ·
$0.30
I would like to think that, but the current trend tends to suggest that they just won't vote at all. 
If the only reason they upvote at all, is to upvote themselves, then they most likely will just not vote. This is still beneficial, as it will take less of the rewards from the pool for people who are voting, but I don't think it's going to cause any change.
If anything, they will find away to self-vote through some loophole. IE: Use an alt account they are delegated to, and upvote via proxy. 
I feel like what your saying is, "People with SP only self-vote, if we take that away, they will vote for others." The reality is, 90% of these people aren't voting to begin with. The small percentage that would change based on your theory, is so minimal, I don't see it causing any change.  
The think that would change voting the most, would be to change the way the trending page functions. People are more likely to vote on what they see first (example: Instagram). Popular post stay on trending, occupying the same top 40 slots for at least 5 days. Not allowing for any new content (regardless of value) to break through.. it needs to function more like Reddit. Regardless of value earned, it's booted after a set amount of time, or interactions after the initial hefty votes. This would also solve the bot problem. If you the first votes received are $50, and the post fails to receive subsequent high level votes, it falls off... 
More varied content on the front page where 90% of interactions take place, would increase voter diversity, and participation.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@introvertspeaks ·
Whatever it is, I'll just have to continue posting memes. I'm tired of this, and meme is a great stress reliever. Make meme great again!
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@iqrimikri ·
Great post really no douby about it you have point out the great thing the real issue i really appreciating you views voting self and voting others its a big difference no original and genuine parameter of settinh right quality vote for those who really right to get reward its really shocking that how much difference you explain here nice explaination you are giving with your picture here great work  about upvoting issue you raised a genuine issue you have share a outstanding information awesome
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@itwithsm ·
you are right my friend. Most of the steemians are voting themselves instead of voting others. This thing degrades the good content creators and encourages shit posts. moreover the bidding bots and vote sellers are making it even worse due to their irresponsible services. I think they should also feel their responsibility.
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@itwithsm ·
you are right my friend. Most of the steemians are voting themselves instead of voting others. This thing degrades the good content creators and encourages shit posts. moreover the bidding bots and vote sellers are making it even worse due to their irresponsible services. I think they should also feel their responsibility.
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@jaki01 ·
Some time ago I formulated some ideas to make self-voting, circle-voting and spamming less attractive by ...


- ... thinking about a <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/conciliation-of-the-reward-curves-die-versoehnung-der-reward-kurven">reward curve</a> which started as n^2 / exponential (thus flat), and then later changed into linear which would work against self-voting as well as excessive rewards.
@clayop had a <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@clayop/making-steemit-better-a-proposal-to-flatten-the-rewards-curve">similar idea</a>.


- ... implementing <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/ideas-for-more-justice-on-steemit-ideen-fuer-mehr-gerechtigkeit-auf-steemit">diminishing returns</a> when upvoting the same accounts (including own ones) again and again.


- ... reintroducing the restriction to four (or less) full paid posts per day (from some hard forks ago) which was very reasonable.


- ... considering also other ideas like the one of <a href="https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@scipio/how-to-solve-spam-on-steem-introducing-userauthority">UserAuthority</a> from @scipio.

When I wrote these articles some time ago I really had hoped that more witnesses/big account holders would have joined the discussion!
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@jasonshick ·
I completely agree with your thoughts. I am a perfect example myself. For the large majority of my time on the platform I have been community oriented, most of my time has been spent commenting and upvoting other peoples work, but after seeing the changing tide my own personal habits have been modified so I stop my own bleeding. @trafalgar is a perfect example. I hate how he incessantly upvotes his own posts 5 times a day and currently sits around 90% self voting, but also thankful that he is a smart dude and has identified the problem and suggested some ways to make changes. This is a very pressing issue, I just hope you aren't yelling into deaf ears
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@jefpatat ·
$1.16
> Nobody's going to be the sucker forever.

I often wonder when I'm going to give up. I have refrained from everything that is not pure manual curation. I don't delegate to bots and I don't use them. I don't want to turn into a greedy individual that squeezes out the last bit of it. But being the last idiot in the desert doesn't feel good. The last couple of months it feels like I'm always searching for like minded people in this vast greedy ocean. It shouldn't be like this and I'm convinced that with decent governance it wouldn't be like this.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Other than Steem, my favourite project that unfortunately is still in WIP is Tauchain. That thing is expected to be able to scale discussion and consensus (just a small part of it) and it could make peer to peer discovery easier and more effective. It’s okay to maximise your benefits, we are just proposing the elimination of the trolley problem so nobody has to feel like a sucker haha
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@jonny-clearwater · (edited)
$0.79
I may not always agree with you...but I respect the effort you put into this platform.
Cheers @kevinwong
(upvoted this comment as well as this post to show that both self voting and curating good content is a viable approach on this platform)
πŸ‘  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (8)
@jordanlove · (edited)
$2.28
Hi Kevinwong, I'm so glad that you raised up this concern,
![thanks.gif](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmR6anux8gGAqJxBqFefHUsQ2pbuQvQcM1Vnx3529sHUwr/thanks.gif)
In my ideal Steemit world, upvotes go to good quality content. In our current Steemit world, this is far from the case and it is basically just about who you know (or better yet: who knows you) and how rich you are in your Steem Power.

I wrote about it few months ego . I feel the older minnows are being left out in the cold in favor of upvoting newbies for being now. This frustrates me, because I see the amount of upvotes declining. This has led me to upvote some of my own, longer comments, to make sure I atleast earn just a little bit still. I don't particularly like it, but Steemit isn't fair anyway, so sometimes I just can't care too much anymore...
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vote details (4)
@phoneinf ·
Exactly. It's about building up quality relationships and grow other peoples accounts until you have created a self-supporting community! That will say it's about who you know and how good community you create and how good value and morals you can create by being a good role model for others.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@josediccus ·
Steemit is unto something really upcoming very big too, but well I would have to say the voting system too will really be tampered with, I do really hope it is, the change is needed
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@journeyoflife ·
$1.20
Some true blights here and sometimes I feel like it’s unfair but what can we do? How can we get a 100$ payout like others do ? It just doesn’t seem fair but I believe in working hard and engaging . One day it will pay off
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vote details (4)
@joythewanderer ·
$0.58
The problem has been there since HF 19, but there aren't going to be much change on the voting/curation the coming HF 20 as I read. Maybe time to become a witness, Kevin.
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
yeah should be way before hf equality. trying to push for some changes..
properties (22)
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@kaeley ·
True in every sense of the word. This behaviour can eventually kill off Steem. It will discourage new people like us.Keep spreading the word and maybe someone will take heed and make improvements.
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@kailin.mai ·
Hi, @kevinwong! I’m Kailin! I was upvoted and followed you!
properties (22)
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@karenmckersie ·
$0.29
Great post @kevinwong  I love your saying "The system needs to be de-suckerified to some extent." I totally agree and really hope something gets done soon! Glad to be following you, upped earlier by Auto voter now resteemed!πŸ˜€πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘Œ
https://render.bitstrips.com/v2/cpanel/5b8bb193-be92-43af-8542-64710654691b-2b851cb9-3222-436b-9bb7-ff7645be9ace-v1.png?transparent=1&palette=1
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@katharsisdrill · (edited)
$3.56
I have saved almost everything I earned into SP to be able to make something here (I have seen how interest in great quality posters have disappeared as soon as they have powered down) - I have been lucky that people from other networks are sending me bitcoin donations that I can live from.

But I am still interested in a Steemit that work instead of this ridiculous mess. Right now I upvote my own posts (never my own comments), but I would be OK with a hardfork that removed selfvoting altogether (or diminished it to two votes a day like @vcelier proposed) and then maybe a bit more reward to the curators.

You do not make people bike by telling them it is healthy and that your government welcomes it. You build bicycle tracks and put taxes on cars.

Crypto has one great thing - it has impartial, transparent rules. Let's change them... or lets vote for the witnesses who supports them.

Yea boy
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vote details (5)
@crypto-econom1st ·
$0.03
Your last sentence seems to indicate that witnesses could change the way this blockchain works. But so far it looks like they don't have this much influence. Do you really think they can?
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@charitybot ·
In my conversation with smooth the issue was apparent, most open-sourced projects field ideas and contributions from lots of people, but here steemit inc is the one that pushes ideas and code and it's a mostly closed process.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@katharsisdrill · (edited)
The witnesses have to agree (or a percentage of them at least) for a hardfork to be a reality - they are the miners of Steem and they participate in discussions with Steemit inc. about what to do. You can vote for them in the right menu.

Right now this representative democracy is not that well working - many people doesn't know how the system works.

See this post: https://steemit.com/witness-category/@someguy123/seriously-what-is-a-witness-why-should-i-care-how-do-i-become-one-answer
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
$0.28
It’s just hard to get a consensus of things, everything’s lost in the wind 99% of the time. Just hoping to nail a decent enough explanation in this one..
πŸ‘  , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@katharsisdrill ·
$0.29
Yes, It sounded smart ass-ish. The democracy aspect of Steemit is not at all obvious to the general user. I think that there is a consensus among many users that a change to the voting system is important, but it is hard to get the discussion centralised enough when you only have posts :) As you can see I am willing to try some drastic measures, but I support of course to make  curating more profitable. I could also imagine a scenario where self-voting was not build in at all, but it is hard to change such things when they have been an integrated part of the system.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kh-tushar ·
It’s a noticeable matter,thanks for bringing this up...![D09A4BAB-7610-4E06-BCB4-31324C082D3D.png](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmYnYkTNNbKzKNkv1rcpNrcQZuxZGF7adpXMgVQmohqmjM/D09A4BAB-7610-4E06-BCB4-31324C082D3D.png)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kilbride ·
$0.58
I love your design example - user experience vs design.  I read your early proposal also, but wouldn't a 50/50 split just make voting bots accumulate wealth at a ridiculous rate, concentrating in to that sector, which would then create  an incentive for just straight up car commercials on the trending? Also, I never see anyone say this, but why are people even allowed to vote on their own comments? If they have to shitpost to upvote then at least it's in the light of day on their page, but the comment like is such a sneaky move - especially when you see that they didn't even upvote the post they commented on haha
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@abh12345 ·
They would just comment with an alt and upvote with the main account 😌
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@kilbride ·
$0.29
Oh yeah. It feels like so much of our existence is trying to out maneuver insatiably selfish (or violent) people - its just an infinite game . On the one hand, I don't like spending my energy on it, and on the other hand if you ignore it it is like a cancer... ughhl .
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kkarenmp ·
$0.73
I've really been impressed with such a good explanation, you're really right, many are on the platform looking for many votes and money and those who really make good content are far below and not fair.
For example, I am a Violinist Musician and enter the platform thanks to a contest called OpenMic that helps musicians to grow to make themselves known as an artist and that is valuable.

My content maybe is not as good as I would like but I always try to improve it not to gain votes but so that more people know me and share my talent to others, I like more interacting with people give their opinion about my post or give me a constructive criticism, really sometimes I do not understand much the management of this platform but as time passes I am improving and waiting for Steemit to grow as I am growing.

I am in favor of giving my vote that is little but giving it to quality content not only to seek a vote but to give a grain and encourage that person to continue making good content

Greetings and success
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@klevn ·
no self voting. i'd consider adding rules to limit repeat voting as well. systematic voting doesn't make sense for steem.  

I think we could desire individuals only.  if this isn't done hopefully someone will.
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@komal-khan ·
good post
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@krischik ·
$0.30
The Vsauce video was impressive. 
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@krnel ·
$1.95
Is self-voting really the big issue of the time? What is your take on bidbots and buying votes? Many whales aren't working to curate and earn rewards, they get suckers to buy votes and they get curation rewards on top of selling their votes. It's a double income for them. Most don't post so self-voting at that level isn't a problem. I used to not self-vote, before HF19. When I came back to Steemit 2 months ago, I saw how things had changed, and I took back my delegated power and started self-voting again. I also don't make more than 4x posts each day. I also see you self-vote... so that's a bit confusing that you're arguing for a position you don't do yourself personally  :/
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kevinwong ·
$0.09
Bid bots and buying votes are effectively self-voting, just different manifestations under this economic equilibrium. Buyers end up self-voting, which meant the sellers too because they got paid for that to happen..

Our proposal seeks to make the best out of voting behaviour by solving that trolley problem, at least in spirit. The effect of doing so could destabilise the vote trading market and make it a less predictable game. Vote trading markets are still going to exist regardless. It’s not a bad thing, just that it’s highly favoured under the current scheme.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@smooth · (edited)
$0.60
Bid bots are self-voting by the _sellers_ (i.e. sellers earn about what they would earn if they posted a comment and voted for it with their own stake). The buyers mostly break even. It games the placement Trending algorithm, which is supposed to ranks _highly rewarded_ content. However, with paid votes being close to break even, it doesn't really do that, it ranks content with a high placement spend. It is actually debatable whether this is bad though. Being willing to spend money for placement is a perfectly valid economic activity (advertising). 

Taken to its extreme (all stake delegated to bid bots), it replaces the idea of a reward pool with a paid-placement blogging site. The native token is used for payment, bandwidth, and some staking purposes. I don't know if that is actually 'bad', just different. It could probably be implemented more efficiently (for example by getting rid of the largely-neutered reward pool concept).
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@labtoots ·
Great article @kevinwong as a new user myself its great to read a wide spectrum of user experiences and Steemit advice.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@lifeaef ·
$0.58
You have a point here. Sometimes you really think if it's worth it to continue doing what you do while you have a potential for better profit.

The thing is it's more rewarding to curate and add value to the platform, but I really doubt a fundamental change in Steem blockchain. Some people are heavily invested in the dysfunctional economy. 

I'm not sure what you do exactly but I think you're doing a good job just talking about this

Maybe we are heading into a non-consensual fork?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@lola.cole ·
$0.30
YES! I have been feeling this very sentiment -- it feels similar to the way businesses on social media platforms, such as instagram, will do whatever it takes to increase followers and likes. Well, in fact, that's what most are after. So it leaves one wondering - what's the true judge for quality, informative and well-curated content? The same holds true for the current Steemit voting model. So, hats off to you for this post and your insight into the matter.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@lordofthewaves ·
Nice article @kevinwong. I'm searching for some good posts about how people like you started out in the early days of Steem. I'd be grateful if you, or someone else around here, could point me towards something... Cheers!
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@luca1777 ·
It's like HipHop 1990 when i started in Bavaria, the South of Germany...nobody was listening to it and i whished it would
become bigger, until it got heavy dumbed down by the 
majors and by 2000 you didn't wanted hear it no more.
I already made a video about "Quality Control, Quality protection"
and i agree 100% on "de-suckering" Steemit.
But there are enough "big" or "bigger" fishes here, who deliver a 
certain amount of content & vote for themselves!?
Bad example!?
I was strictly against it, but as a "small" fish, u think
also that you have to support yourself before you can 
help others + you saw "good"  or respected people
doing it..
"Be the Good Example & Spread the Word" like i wrote
in one of my lyrics.
Thanx my man, no matter what whoever does in the
future, i will go back to my "de-suckerfied" mentality.
The Law of Attraction should handle the rest anyway :)
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@mafzaal92 · (edited)
I am happy after saying those peoples that help work for this plateform and vote on other peoples post not on his own post.
Some peoples also help the others by starting minnows.
you are right @kevinwong, @mafzaal92 appreciate your work.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@maikelblogo ·
Sadly, this is the way to live in SteemLand. Making a post who will be dead after seven days and we got to run up to make money with that post...
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@mattclarke ·
$1.92
Quadratic rewards, 50/50 author/curator splits, 2 year power downs; all very deliberately chosen to avoid exactly the kind of behaviour we're seeing now that they're gone.
πŸ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@kevinwong ·
$0.17
No so sure about the 2 year period and hyperinflation, Dan certainly got some good ideas right and some terrible. Quadratic is a great consideration, although I’d say that it shouldn’t be as strong as pure n^2..
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
$0.22
Two year (or whatever longer period) still makes perfect sense without hyperinflation. The two are mostly unrelated.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@mdarfiakash00 ·
$0.08
### My statement is that, the good amount of time SP gets to post the vote to vote.

This is a great point Kevin. Steem users are now doing everything a little bit. It is not just outside the real believers.
I did not vote and I know that I'm doing it as a minor. I even put Sndbox on the left because I felt that their votes are making more than one percent of my earnings. I make a possible income, "against my interests", just like you describe it.

### Some have to change because I know most people will only vote if they can.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@meesterboom ·
$0.08
I think you are very correct, your last line particularly so. It has become quite the common thing to say *smt's will fix this* 

We have to act now. Even if they do/could fix it. (I am not convinced) they could be a very long way away.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@phoneinf ·
Of course human nature will stay the same even when SMTs come out. We can only promote more selfless actions by being selfless ourself.
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@metatron0 ·
looks like a pretty good discussion. book marked for further study.
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@michaellamden68 ·
$0.22
Good luck, let’s hope there’s not bee too much damage done already.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@krischik ·
Just read an article on VEST and the early growth on VEST. Now I fear it might already be to late. Those who joined in 2016 got it all and the system has now little to offer for newcomer what other sides like Minds won't offer as well.
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@michaellamden68 ·
$0.19
Agreed, the gains are much smaller now
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@mikenevitt ·
$0.21
Very interesting article, I must admit to upvoteing myself but I also upvote posts I like and I do usually upvote people who take the time to reply but perhaps in the long run things need to change. Thanks mike
πŸ‘  
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@mildosky ·
How disappointing it is to write a good article and have it neglected because you refuse to patronize vote sellers
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@mistermercury ·
$1.01
Grateful for your post and your genuine concern.

 I am enthralled by Steemit and the incredible potential it has to be part of a shift in consciousness in humanity. There is so much that can be accomplished here but hurdles and challenges must be overcome first. Or... well another platform will step in. That's the way of things.

 I have a simple concept I call Cooperative Abundance, whereby we lift each other up, we sustain and encourage each other, we work within a system voluntarily for the benefit of those who are self-responsible and are willing to work, ourselves included. 

Abundance will not be just monetary but will be seen in the development of human potential wether in the arts or science or writing, etc. Abundance of friendship and community, and care and support are included. 

To be forthright, I see blockchain technology as a means of freeing humanity from the age-old domination of the elite few. I see it as a way to create a  new paradigm for humanity... one that no longer needs war, and violent behavior in the banking system or in corrupt capitalism. 

People like you and many others here on Steemit who see a greater vision will thrive and will also help others to do the same. 

Indeed, if Steemit can institute this  Vision of Cooperative Abundance it too will thrive. If Steemit chooses to remain in a lower level of consciousness where the incentive is to trample on others vs lifting each other up then it will go the way of the world...ashes to ashes, dust to dust. 

Many blessings, may you be at peace.  

Ha! Just gave you my .04 cent upvote. Kinda funny isn't it? But this is 25% of my total vote, and I must budget my votes so I can help others in this very tiny, tiny way. So obviously, it's not about the $$ but rather that I want to give what I can to you for your efforts.
πŸ‘  
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@mobbs ·
I still seem of the opinion that the best idea at least for now (perhaps until SMTs comes out) is not a development issue but a service one. By  making manual curation communities *more* attractive to investors, they would be putting their money in the right place, while still earning their greedy income.

My post from months ago, in short, suggested whales delegate their millions to various trusted curation teams who not only give a return via curation rewards but naturally boost the quality of the blockchain.

At the same time, premium services can be purchased where your (still not guaranteed) upvoted post would receive a bigger vote than usual. 

Kind of like mixing bid-bots with curation teams. @postpromoter has already reached out to us, steemSTEM, with a related idea.
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@muhasib ·
Great suggestion about voting power and votes, this will help others to grow as well unlike some whales who don't help minnows and earn only themselves.
the example you gave above about dying five persons or one person is a great way to make things understand to others 
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@krischik ·
Minnows have 1 million VEST and can already upvote themselves. Unlike plankton. Plankton needs help more then anybody else.
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@mumin007 · (edited)
$0.54
**Kill one or kill five? Obviously, most will choose to kill one. This is exactly every voter's binary situation on Steem: either vote oneself or vote others. Due to Steem's skewed economic incentives for self voters (or vote sellers, traders, exchangers, etc which are all effectively the same thing to maximise SP accumulation), most will choose not too sacrifice too much and reserve more votes for themselves.**
A best example given by you, I will say that I have a negligible SP but I also think to save it by not upvoting the comments and save it for myself and few people, but I have seen people here upvoting minnows even if thier SP is reduced a lot, they don't care about the reduction of SP they just support . This blog of yours is quite informative. 
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@mysearchisover ·
$0.21
I think it's difficult if not impossible to design a system than can not be "gamed". Overall I think our current system is ok. I think you should invest more and upvote yourself and others. I think a higher Steem price would be good for the platform.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@nameless-berk ·
$0.51
STINC doesn't give a fuck about unfairness here, come on. Until they keep getting rich themselves off the system it works fine in their opinion.
πŸ‘  
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@nitroaus ·
$0.30
I have seen a blurry picture of chicken on a plate with 3 poorly constructed lines of text, the majority of which did not make sense. This said chicken plate got a gazzillion votes and made good money ($600 plus). Yet some of the greatest work I have seen on here barely makes a vote and gets no-where. Think we have a problem with voting for sure!!!!!
πŸ‘  
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@kevinwong ·
For great curation works on posts that deserve votes, check out whatever @curie votes on :)
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@nonameslefttouse · (edited)
$1.45
I stopped self voting nearly one month ago.  I am not losing because I am contributing.  One solid post per day(sometimes I take a day off) that my personal following and curators consider to be good enough to vote on.  I use the additional voting power I've gained by not self voting, and give it to others.
![Screenshot (379).png](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmPmhJxeBP7RQCappLyFGEZhAAsbV7UkpMnu4kjJoP8GQe/Screenshot%20(379).png)

I'm earning more SP through curation than ever before.  I'm getting more SP by helping others than I gain through posting.  I'm offering more the incentive to stick around and enjoy the platform so they too can enjoy the same ride I'm on.  More people seeing a reward here, along with a future, secures my investment.  This is not a loss.  It's a huge gain.

Now, I know there are ways to make **more**, now, but the point is, I'm gaining.  I'm not losing anything by thinking about tomorrow.  We stand to earn far more and those just getting started are in the same boat.

Everything we see in that screenshot was earned here.  I did not invest a dime.  This approach works really well.  I don't purchase votes, I don't look for little exploits in order to earn.  I simply post and curate manually.   No tricks, no gimmicks, just taking what I've been given and using it as it was intended while thinking of others just as much as myself.

Steemit works like this.  Just putting that out there.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
$0.02
Yes agree. Nothing wrong with people who use votes on themselves too, but our current situation is one with the trolley problem, which should be minimised as best as possible for reasons I’ve stated in the post. Users like you shouldn’t be at the end of a suckernomics, relative to those that are maximising their SP by all means.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@nonameslefttouse ·
I 100% agree.  What I'm doing, this behavior; it was encouraged straight from the get go.  Post, powerup, help others, build roads, get there.  The way it is now, there's a wall in front of me and I'm given a plastic spoon to chip away at it.  Not working!  Needs to change.  If I stop doing what I'm doing, many others take a hit.  Just imagine if I did a post where suddenly I say, "Okay, enough is enough, you must purchase my vote now."  Career suicide.  The content producers need a fair shake or the the entire system crumbles and dammit man these people earning now will see their money turn to dust.  It's so damn obvious to anyone who knows anything and holy shit dude I'm going off on another tangent.  I apologize for the last time I was here yappin and I better shut up before I do it again.
πŸ‘  
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@nurhayati ·
Your kindness has been amazing, helping, guiding, that's what you did to me. as a woman I am very grateful for your support, I have 7 months love STEEM. Succeed forever brother @kevinwong.
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@ocrdu ·
$0.93
I am not sure what you propose (in the busy.org link) will work to get us out of this mess, but I have reached the stage where I think trying it is better than doing nothing. We can always roll back should it make things worse.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@phoneinf ·
A strong Steem Blockchain Middle Class is the answer. That will say they should have the most influence the ones that engage the most since it would create stability.
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@olumideolowoyeye ·
You see it takes a good spirit and a kind heart to sacrifice all those that amount only because you don’t wanna be selfish. You’re a good man and I must say you should keep up the good work. We’d together make steem great again
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@paasz ·
$0.58
What do you think of this? Is the Good Person Token (GPT) the answer?

![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmRpqow6nJ7NszwgvmPXSty2FtwNmwR7U2ijhLrjQcaa3M/image.png)
infographic by @overkillcoin
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
I think it's okay, but just as prone to abuse. Oracles / gatekeepers can effectively collude and create free accounts to game the system, even worse, possibly, especially in a massive community.
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@pattoounlimited ·
**Great read!!** Im still getting the hang of the platform. Its got some flaws and you pointed that out very honestly. I think upvoting and commenting is crucial in order for growth within the community. There is alot of spammy shit posts I have to go through before I see some great new stuff. Still a minnow in the Steem ecosystem. 
![giphy.gif](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmch8zBL14CVpLpzEQnFwbJWQDWs9WyZ1pxK9ha2QWMnmN/giphy.gif)
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@paulavg ·
People should pay more attention to this, thanks for sharing!
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@petecko ·
$0.73
I know I'm just a poor plankton, but also add to the discussion.
Personally, I have stopped using bid-bots and self-voting for a long time.
*Why?*
Because it will be much better if the real curators will appreciate my work. Then at least I know that my posts someone actually reads. I know that my work makes sense because I create for others.
In addition, if you do not upvote own comments, then I can upvote for much more posts (or even comments) of other Steemians.

*I know my attitude is not the most popular one.*
But, in my opinion, the main idea of Steemit is the quality and original creative content. Personally, I think the quality of my content should be evaluated by other Steemians (not self or bought upvotes).
*But I may also be mistaken.*

**Steem  On!**
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Yeah mostly, no self-respecting content creator or artist will ever buy votes, although I'm from the camp that's okay with whatever people want to do with their votes. If you're a team player, then sometimes some self-voting is okay as well if you're planning to gain a larger stake to support more users in the future. In any case, hard to stop anyone from doing whatever they wanna do, hence the point of this post in suggesting that we remove the proverbial trolley problem so no matter how you play the game, at least you're not losing out all that much since curation is more favourable under our proposal.
properties (22)
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@petecko ·
I agree with that.
Then I see the problem in buying upvotes for posts without any value and spamming trending. But until all Steemians understand that mindless content reduces the attractiveness of Steemit (and the STEEM prize), we can not find a generally valid solution to this problem.
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@plushzilla ·
There are many of us at the lower end of the Steemit economic scale that embrace the philosophy growing this community/platform by spreading the wealth. Any economic system that is not balanced and sustainable will eventually collapse and everyone will stand to lose, except for those that were not in it for the money to start with. When you take out all the krills and plankton the whales will starve, it is just a matter of when and not if it will happen. If the upper end of town doesn't support the lower end, they will find a way to survive without those that they were dependent on. And I do agree that SMTs will not solve the problem, we need to change the mindset of the people first.
properties (22)
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@prameshtyagi ·
I suggest that a new reward button associated with resteeming be allowed. It will have following benefits

1. Whales if like a content then they will simply resteem and earn rewards for their stake
2. If the content of resteemed authors is good then other whales will also resteem and earn rewards 
3. This way good quality content will rise to top
4. The authors who are resteemed more and more should be rewarded more by blockchain

In this way we respect both the stake owners and authors by helping them earn more plus provide great content to other users as well as visitors
πŸ‘  
πŸ‘Ž  
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@enforcer48 ·
> The authors who are resteemed more and more should be rewarded more by blockchain

Enter the bajillion spam accounts. You will hear that Steemit reached 10M users in a few months with that approach.
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@etherpunk ·
Resteeming rewards are flawed
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@prameshtyagi ·
there are competitions that will be using this strategy - check my post https://steemit.com/prameshtyagi/@prameshtyagi/steem-vs-content-network-token-cnn
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (1)
@preciousimo · (edited)
This is actually a wonderful sincere and selfless write-up.
Some of us don't have as much or lose as much because we don't have such amount of Sp. But we feel the negative effects of these trends 

**So just be my voice ad i resteem the post**

## Re-Steemed!
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@programmingvalue ·
$0.58
Steem needs to be more brave in experimenting with different economic models
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
That’s what SMTs are for, more experimentation. However, I think base Steem for the massively open community should consider this angle for the next step.
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@randr10 ·
$0.34
Whatever incentives developers include in the scheme, there's a simple goal here in my mind's eye.  If people on the platform are doing something other than simply either: a. producing content, or b. consuming and enjoying content followed by an upvote of said content to push it towards the tending page; they're doing it wrong.  Social media is about being social and having fun doing it.  And shit posting is in fact a part of that unfortunately. I know it pains some people to see others earning money for doing that, but it's part of the game. Taking this stuff too seriously is a big part of the problem on Steemit IMO.  How do we help people forget about the money and just enjoy themselves?
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@katharsisdrill ·
Why be here if not for the money?
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@randr10 ·
Why be on Facebook, Reddit, YouTube or Twitter?  That's the idea of this platform.  It's something that you probably already do, but since what you're doing creates value, even by just passively consuming content, why shouldn't you also be paid for it?  In my opinion, the incentive structure that most closely mimics that of the incentive structures on regular social media will yield the most use of the platform and the most users.  There are reasons people gravitate to those other social media sites and I don't think we should ignore that.  Paying attention to this and acting accordingly will translate into prosperity for everyone.  If we're spending our time on here trying to game the system, or on the flip side, prevent others from gaming it to foster "worthy content" then the whole thing becomes a chore, which in turn considerably narrows the potential user base.  In short, it should be fun that you get paid for.  I'm assuming most people don't want to make it their job to socialize on the internet.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@mistermercury ·
$0.05
Indeed, I enjoy the social aspect of Steemit very much. However, I am one of the many who hope one day to prosper from what I do here. I won't give details, but suffice it to say illness and age have landed me up shit creek with only one paddle: Steemit. I can't live off of Steemit now, but one day I hope to. And the sooner the better, to be frank. And of course you know I am not alone in this by any means. Blessings.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@randr10 ·
$0.03
Sorry to hear about your troubles.  I think the point stands regardless.  If people aren't having a good time while they're here, most of them aren't going to give a shit about the $500 per year they might get paid to casually use the site.  

My wife is a perfect example.  Until she can come on here and shit post with her friends just for fun, she has zero interest in creating an account and using the platform.  It's just not worth the small amount of money she might get by foregoing time on some other social media where she's having a good time.  

Now all else equal, if people can get the user experience they get on other social media and *also* get paid for it, that will be the tipping point for Steemit.  But again, if the user experience isn't there, they just can't be bothered.

I'm sort of astonished at the lack of willingness of most people to take initiative and do even minor things that will benefit them.  Unfortunately people that will take the initiative are in the minority.  I wish you great success in your content creation here though because I can tell you are not one of those people.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@revisesociology ·
I agree with what you're saying, and with @trafalgar's '3 fold suggestion' for a solution (slightly linear, 50/50 curation and separate down vote pool).... what's depressing is that having recently just read through a few of your old posts, and @teamsteem's and @felixxx's as well as @trafalgar's comments as part of a 'literature review' of steem posts I'm doing, the conversation below is a 'cut and paste' version of what I've already seen!

Very sensible suggestions you and @trafalgar are agreeing on, and I'm with you 100%, something else I'd add in to beef up your arguments is that the current system encourages an 'extractivist' mentality to investing in steem -  investing to extract rather than investing to scale and build. 

I agree that we shouldn't wait on, or rely on SMTs... encouraging curation for good content on here should be a more immediate goal. 

How much longer do you think you can hold out?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@richatvns ·
The issue is not the upvote... believe it or not..it is the lack of payment for views and a true creation.  Which means classifying and judging... same as Google does, you can pay to move ad/blog up...but the most referenced and viewed that follow the vector of the search are the ones displayed in search results.

That in and of itself would correct alot....and move people away from pots...

This system gives no stickiness to older well written informative posts, that can be used as resources or for enjoyment...

After the best post after 7 days can't even get a not upvote....

This the problem with the Twitter disposable social media  society.  There are no long term anchor points except on teaching sites.
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@richatvns ·
The issue is not the upvote... believe it or not..it is the lack of payment for views and a true curation.  Which means classifying and judging... same as Google does, you can pay to move ad/blog up...but the most referenced and viewed that follow the vector of the search are the ones displayed in search results.

That in and of itself would correct alot....and move people away from pots...

This system gives no stickiness to older well written informative posts, that can be used as resources or for enjoyment...

After the best post after 7 days can't even get a not upvote....

This the problem with the Twitter disposable social media  society.  There are no long term anchor points except on teaching sites.
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@richatvns ·
The issue is not the upvote... believe it or not..it is the lack of payment for views and a true curation.  Which means classifying and judging... same as Google does, you can pay to move ad/blog up...but the most referenced and viewed that follow the vector of the search are the ones displayed in search results.

That in and of itself would correct alot....and move people away from pots...

This system gives no stickiness to older well written informative posts, that can be used as resources or for enjoyment...

After the best post after 7 days can't even get a not upvote....

This the problem with the Twitter disposable social media  society.  There are no long term anchor points except on teaching sites.
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@richatvns ·
The issue is not the upvote... believe it or not..it is the lack of payment for views and a true curation.  Which means classifying and judging... same as Google does, you can pay to move ad/blog up...but the most referenced and viewed that follow the vector of the search are the ones displayed in search results.

That in and of itself would correct alot....and move people away from pots...

This system gives no stickiness to older well written informative posts, that can be used as resources or for enjoyment...

After the best post after 7 days can't even get a not upvote....

This the problem with the Twitter disposable social media  society.  There are no long term anchor points except on teaching sites.
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@richatvns ·
The issue is not the upvote... believe it or not..it is the lack of payment for views and a true curation.  Which means classifying and judging... same as Google does, you can pay to move ad/blog up...but the most referenced and viewed that follow the vector of the search are the ones displayed in search results.

That in and of itself would correct alot....and move people away from pots...

This system gives no stickiness to older well written informative posts, that can be used as resources or for enjoyment...

After the best post after 7 days can't even get a not upvote....

This the problem with the Twitter disposable social media  society.  There are no long term anchor points except on teaching sites.
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@richatvns ·
The issue is not the upvote... believe it or not..it is the lack of payment for views and a true curation.  Which means classifying and judging... same as Google does, you can pay to move ad/blog up...but the most referenced and viewed that follow the vector of the search are the ones displayed in search results.

That in and of itself would correct alot....and move people away from pots...

This system gives no stickiness to older well written informative posts, that can be used as resources or for enjoyment...

After the best post after 7 days can't even get a not upvote....

This the problem with the Twitter disposable social media  society.  There are no long term anchor points except on teaching sites.
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@rickyaldyra ·
Wow, , that is great information. 
In Steemit is something new for me. And so difficult to take an action. Course i dont have enough experience here. Just reading and than try it.
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@ripon063 ·
$0.30
##### I think if individuals began uninhibitedly downvoting these super offer botty junk posts, monetary motivating forces should locate another harmony. Individuals who offer bot rubbish might just miss out when 'verification of mind' begins working, and brainless posts are rejected - and on the off chance that they burned through cash and got nothing due to being downvoted and rejected, it's a much more straightforward impact on their conduct.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
Seems to make sense. But can be abused just as much, so not sure about that. Plus under linear, downvoting trash just diverts the relieved rewards to some other trash.
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@rismanrachman ·
$1.46
All need money. But does everything come for the money? I'm 50 years old. I want to continue to share content. If there is a reward, thank you. If not, I keep writing without doing Self-Upvote. Thank you for giving upvote often. I read this post. But I do not have any different ideas.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
$0.03
Oh i see. For me, I see rewards as a way to be able to reward others in the future if they're contributing on the platform. Thanks for sticking around @rismanrachman :)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@rismanrachman ·
Thanks. I am still reading all the comments.
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@rjunaid12 ·
It's good to hear that some are working for the good of the platform even when they're losing by doing that.
I can imagine how bad it just feel when you're trying to do good by steemit and some other guy ruins it just because they love being an asshole
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@ross-early ·
As a new user myself it is a bit disheartening to read about the issues being discussed in this post.  At the moment I am a small drop in the ocean when it comes to my influence on the community.

I have every intention to build a following organically by building relationships with other users and posting quality content. It will be a shame if other new users with the same intentions as myself don't stay around for the long term because they feel they cannot stay afloat with so many others choosing to "game the system" for selfish incentives.

Thank you for forcing discussion on the matter. I must admit I am still learning the ins and outs of Steemit, but I do know that it must evolve when necessary if it is to be around 10 years from now.
πŸ‘  
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@sadpotato ·
$0.34
I'm waiting for the next update I believe it will clear things out.
The Knights of the square table will gather and discuss some business.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@sanees ·
$0.80
isn't this a classic social behavior problem?  Steemit has many users who abuse...Some in a huge way, write 15 crappy articles a day and steal all the rewards.. Even if you remove self voting, they could setup a network of users to self vote. Unfortunately this is why any given human society has some centralized rules. In some way witness do some centralized service for steem. May be they should have ability to remove abused accounts and reclaim the funds in an abused account and credit back to the network.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
self-voting and bots can never be removed. just plain computing reality. the point is just to nudge the economic incentives so that those who are curating and supporting others to grow the network isn't losing as much as those who are trying to make use of all their voting power only to enrich themselves alone. one the economic equilibrium shifts, the new norm will be a better steem that actually rewards contributors more than it is now.

it's a classic social behaviour that can be solved with something like Steem changing its econs. It'll even affect the real world and make things better with a new kind of econs. Think about it :D
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@scan0017 ·
$2.99
Kevin, you're spot on brother!
SMTs are exciting, but let's not expect them to solve this puzzle.
Your decision to upvote quality content other than your own is a wise move, and here's why:
You are doing your part to encourage mass adoption of the Steemit platform by rewarding others who are new to Steemit.

My Steempower is 6500, and I do the same; 
By supporting others with our votes and not solely self-voting, we end up getting a smaller piece of a (hopefully) much larger pie (by Steem rising in value) that our efforts and generosity helped to build.

That's how I 'frame it' to support the actions that both you, I, and so many others engage in and encourage.
It was fantastic having dinner with you, @sjennon, @firepower, and @anyx at the celebration dinner on Sunday night, in Amsterdam, at Steemfest 1 πŸ™‚
I have all of you to thank for inspiring my belief and passion for Steemit:  
Always powering up, never cashed out!  πŸ€œπŸ€›
Have a great summer man!
πŸ‘  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@schattenjaeger ·
@kevinwong is @berniesanders confirmed.
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@schattenjaeger · (edited)
$1.46
The flag is nothing personal. In fact, I like you.

But I'm beyond tired of these stating-the-obvious posts always raking in the hundreds.

A lot of people say these same exact things every day, but no one cares. But when it's a top end user, all the whales stack up with their big upvotes.

And ultimately, nothing changes in the end.

I repeat: nothing personal. I flagged the phenomena, not you as a user. But this is just another form of circle jerk, to be honest.
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@kevinwong ·
$0.08
Just hoping to drive a point and get some of dat Steem lol. I have no issues with however you want to use your votes
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@schattenjaeger ·
$0.29
I know, one is not required to explain their flags. But with the stigma being what it is.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@shauntaemonte ·
Hi Kevin.  If you ever make it to this comment, thanks.  That was inciteful for me.  I mostly vote for others which I've done for you.  My up-votes are still puny and weak but maybe it's the thought that counts.
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@sheikhiqra ·
awesome post i agree with you
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@sirstacksalot ·
$0.53
Let's not forget Auto-upvoting.   I think that's one of those abuses that no one likes to talk about because it's primarily Whale driven.   It's an incestuous little circle that only serves to make the rich richer.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kevinwong ·
Autovoting is not the problem. Lopsided incentives for self-voting / vote-selling is the problem..
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@skapaneas ·
$0.87
Make more rewards straighten your position because we really need guys like you around, I never lost hope things will change for the better. But it takes to long curators must get the motives they need not sure how or what is the best solution. 

I hope this post can reach out more people and finally we see a so wanted/needed change.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@smartesthinker · (edited)
$1.69
Hello @kelvinwong, glad i came accross this post. I for one does not support vote buying and have never used the services since my few months on steemit. Reason been that i dont see it as profitable and the effect it has on visibilty is feasible to me.
However, i can understand why people would want to buy votes. It can be very fustrating and discouraging to have put up a post and do not get rewards. Lots of steemit accounts are dead at the moment due to posting and not get rewarded. Now there is a glitched to what is know as quality post on steemit. Long, well disseted, with good pictures, for a post to be quality enough to get reward. Not everyone can do that. other forms of posts needs to be rewarded also. When i joined steemit, i thought it was a place where you can just blog and be cool. But thats not the case, it is about who likes what you blog, is about who gets to see your post, it is about what steemit regard as a good content. I do understand that, as we cant really be visible to everyone, or get to reach everyone.
I guess this is the reason people have to opt for vote buying to encourage themselves to blog. The truth is we all have our circle on steemit and cannot reach every good content. However quality the content of a minnow post is, they can never get what a whale gets for reward, not because the content not good enough, but the circle he/she belongs to.
Buying votes may be bribery, but people have to do what they have to do to earn, build a reputaion, survive and be consistence on steemit. Despite the fact that, few of the many powerful people have been very helpful with rewarding, they cannot reach everyone.
In this plight i would suggest, in as much as buying of vote doesnt give much value and tends more to the abusing side, buying of votes shouldnt be frowned. For those who needs it, they should be able to access the services,if that is what it takes for them to earn and remain active.
My sincere opinion. Thank you.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
$0.03
Yes I have no problem with the vote trading market. People are free to do what they want. Many may not know the current lopsided incentives that favour the market too much, hence why I’m writing this post. 
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@phoneinf ·
Buying votes isn't bribery. It's capitalism. We live in a market economy. Advertising is legal.
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@somethingsubtle · (edited)
$0.42
The promotion page is Steemit's attempt at advertising. Paying for promotion actually burns steem and makes the entire platform worth more. I'm guessing it could be improved, but it acts in a way that is beneficial to the whole system.

I'd argue that people paying for votes is not advertising, and it does not benefit the whole system. 
1. Crappy content is posted
2. Poster pays for votes
3.  Crappy content gets an overly valued on the platform
4. Poster gets paid
5. Bidbot provider gets paid
6. Delegator gets paid. 
7. More spammers join the platform

So, what happens with that exchange? Is quality content encouraged? Is curation encouraged? Does the value of steemit increase, or does it go down since its now attached to less and less valuable material?
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@smooth · (edited)
$1.18
>Top Steem witnesses tend to be okay with their "sacrifice" because they're already earning a handsome amount maintaining their nodes.

Actually 9000 SBD per month is probably more than full witness pay even before taking into account any costs. So for top witnesses with the same stake as you, the sacrifice is still there. For witnesses with larger stake, it is an even larger sacrifice.

My own stake is delegated out to a combination of market delegations, bid bots, community members/curation, and no-return initiatives such as @burnpost. I also reserve some SP to vote for worthy contributions and engagement. But I'm not willing sacrifice close to the full 50000 SBD per month (rough estimate), whether I'm a witness or not.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong · (edited)
$0.02
True, I was also going to edit that out after thinking about it, but steemit and busy aren't letting me do so atm..

What do you think about the proposal by the way? I'm almost too embarrassed to notice the problem this late. It's the singlemost obvious issue now that if ~~solved~~ fixed, will very likely get Steem to where it deserves in the top 10.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
$0.74
> Time To [...] Fix Steem's Voting Problem

There is no 'fix' known.

The closest I've seen to a credible proposal is from @trafalgar (mild superlinear, increased downvoting incentive, increased curation) and that is still highly speculative, and arguably is not even a credible proposal because no one is stepping forward to implement it, nor is there really a process to implement anything that isn't on the Steemit roadmap (and this isn't).

But, hey, you managed to generate $644.60 (as of right now) of reward with a provocative post that got to Trending (with a little help from some [self-voting and bidbot] friends) that like all the others will generally result in no real change. I guess that helps a bit with your 9000 SBD deficit.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
$0.85
Yes, i think his proposal is good to try out. If we're flying too close to the Sun, or too far out, there's nothing that we can do to salvage anything. The heart of it is to balance out individual autonomy (user satisfaction) and consensus (a working content platform). We've already experienced both ends: linear, and n^2.. now time for something in the middle, along with the other minor tweaks as you've stated.

Yes i'm happy to be able to generate this amount from being provocative, but I really hope to have reasoned this well enough for a move away from inaction. Maybe i'll repeat the post in different languages lol
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@solomonsojay ·
$0.13
Wow! Rightfully said. There no need taking this with a pinch of salt...its 100% tasty  & correct.
**Let make the right adjustment and make Steem great again.**
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@somethingsubtle ·
$3.67
Yup. Vote buying and self-votes are breaking down the [economic engine](https://steemit.com/steemit/@somethingsubtle/a-tale-of-two-steemits) of Steemit. 

They are just rent-seeking behavior that adds no direct value to the platform. 

I think some reforms are necessary:
1. Make delegated power worth less than non-delegated
2. Enforce a cap on how much power can be delegated
3. Improve the discovery features of Steemit (Where are communities?)
4. Explore why the Promotion system is not effective
5. Adjust payouts to better reward minnows that catch an engaged audience instead of just catching a signal whale-bot vote.
πŸ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@phoneinf ·
$0.29
Enforce a cap on how much power you can delegate sounds like communism. It's a not a good idea to move into that direction. That would make people work less. It's clear that automated stuff is here to stay.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@somethingsubtle ·
$0.29
Could you elaborate? How would some limit on delegation cause people to work less? 

My theory is that if one cannot simply hand away their power to a bot, then they have to work to earn a return on their power. That work would imply curating and engaging in the platform. 

Today, you already have people doing no work and adding nothing to the platform aside from just rent-seeking. They simply delegate their power and collect an ROI with no activity whatsoever.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@stackin ·
$0.44
What are all the witneesss doing? Oh nevermind, Cha-Ching! 😳
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
it's really the number 1 problem that's the easiest to solve, with most meaningful change..
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@steemcenterwiki ·
Thanks for sharing! A link to your post was included in the Steem.center wiki article about [Upvote](https://www.steem.center/index.php?title=Upvote). Thanks and good luck again!
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@steemflow ·
$1.08
@kevinwong i trully agree ..the steem economic is in diarray and going nowhere with maximum votin being inconsitant voting unit and self voting for own sake or their closed ones. Their is no room left for minnows who joins with so much hope and lost in big players game.....resteeming!!
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@steemitri ·
$0.29
Totally agree!!! Especially the **de-suckerification** of the system. 
I'm not a developper nor an economist, so I don't have lot of suggestions... I'm here only since a year, a "normal" user... but with some doubts... no idea where we are going with the whole platform. :-(
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@steevc ·
$4.26
So you decided to vote for your own post in this case ;) I stopped self-voting a while back as it didn't feel right when my vote was worth a couple of dollars. I'll let others have the benefit. I think the algorithms should make a self-vote worth less, but then people would do it indirectly using delegation or other means. I delegate to others to help them out. I think it's definitely more important to build this platform than to worry about how much I'm making. If it all works out then we'll do okay anyway.

What we do have here is freedom, so it is a choice. It's better to have less rules in general. I fully understand that some people are desperate to make anything and Steem/Steemit may make it possible for them to have a better life.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , ,
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (11)
@crypto-econom1st ·
$0.06
I really think you are a bit alone on this one. Alright together with some other Steemonians like the post author. But the majority of Steemonians tells me to stop wining as red fish. I should just create quality content. But I'm 99.9% sure that any Newby won't get there just worth quality content.

As red fish I would suggest that all greedy orcas and whales instantly change there behavior. They should care for the long term.

Of I were your financial advisor I would give you a totally different advice. Everything that will be done as of now might be to little to late. Cause the $400mln can never be redivided.
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@steevc ·
I vote up comments by puerile of all levels so there's potential to earn from that, but it won't make you rich. If hope that those who got in early don't keep it all too themselves. There should be multiple opportunities to earn. I'm doing what I can to help
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@jarvie ·
$0.11
@steevc You post more often than most... what about those that post once a day or even less? Do you believe they need to not self-vote? (Just curious) I think they're still doing great good to the community by giving out 9/10th(ish) or more of their votes to curate good content. 

@kevinwong
You post on average less than one a day... you're still giving 90%+ of your votes to others and that doesn't seem selfish at all (assuming you're doing the normal 10 votes worth a week) and I think that is awesome!! I don't see a problem with it personally. IF you are voting/curating solid content then you should be the one with more steem-power and I'm glad you're giving yourself some. 

I'm not sure at what point it becomes abuse... i don't think it's when you're vote hits a certain dollar amount. I think it's what percentage of your votes are going to yourself. 

p.s. sorry i don't really have a solid opinion on the main topic of curation percentage just chiming in on this subtopic from @steevc
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@steevc ·
$0.04
I know there are much worse cases. There are people who comment just so they can give themselves a vote every time. We each set our own standards. I decided not to do it at all unless I got a flag I consider unwarranted
πŸ‘  , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@karenmckersie ·
$0.11
Great comment , we are living in very trying times all over the world so desperate times call for desperate measures especially for those of us that would normally never do it and would much prefer not to. We all want a better life at least a roof over our heads which I came close to losing after being laid off last year,and Am very thankful For steem I had powered up to help me out, and steemit! it really was a life saver and I am now on the road to recovery! βœŒπŸ’•πŸ‘
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@katharsisdrill · (edited)
$0.08
Damn, I should have given you the Mitchell and Webb sketch I posted under Trafalgar... :)

And Kevin even said what I would say: that I self-vote to be good in the future ;)

I think you are one of the people that makes this whole place worthwhile - but there need to be some technical changes in my opinion. You wouldn't change one bit, but you would be given more power to actually change Steemit into something good.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
$0.30
But if you don't mix in self-vote, you don't get to support others as much as you could in the future, while the others are staked up for almost nothing done for the platform. I didn't worry about whatever I'm doing until I started calculating and it doesn't stack up in that perspective I was laying out earlier. You're one of the ones that are sacrificing more than most for the good of the network :) thank you.
πŸ‘  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@karenmckersie ·
Agreed!πŸ’•πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘
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@still-observer · (edited)
Something definitely needs to be done!
Great post @kevinwong
https://i.imgur.com/7X6EKMq.gif
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@stimialiti ·
$1.12
Want to fix it?
Hard fork STEEM, create an interface to it that will have to be ran by the witnesses, start every new account from scratch, from some equal amount of tokens.
People will still be able to cheat by creating multiple accounts, but it will be nowhere near as bad as now.
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@luckyvotes ·
re-stimialiti-re-kevinwong-time-to-wake-up-and-fix-steem-s-voting-problem-20180526t092603391z-20180526t175816406z
You got a 26.67% upvote from @luckyvotes courtesy of @stimialiti!
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@sleeplesswhale ·
re-stimialiti-re-kevinwong-time-to-wake-up-and-fix-steem-s-voting-problem-20180526t092603391z-20180527t131405037z
You got a 18.18% upvote from @sleeplesswhale courtesy of @stimialiti!
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@youtake ·
re-stimialiti-re-kevinwong-time-to-wake-up-and-fix-steem-s-voting-problem-20180526t092603391z-20180530t011214980z
@youtake pulls you up ! This vote was sent to you by @stimialiti!
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@suci ·
The attention isn't for sale I think.
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@sunlit7 ·
$0.59
I don't know about all the semantics needed to improve the system but I am totally under the impression that changes in the amount paid to curators needs to be improved.  I've said it numerous times my strong point for this site is my addiction to blogging, not so much for being a great content producer.  Even in blogging if you want people to focus on the content produced and engage it has to be worth their time.  Some articles take a couple minutes to read others take more time, unless something immediately stands out that I'd like to say I like to see what others are commenting about the article, that takes more time.  On a really good article and comments I could spend forty five minutes or more depending greatly upon the number of comments or even the quality of comments. This article alone, along with reading a few comments and watching the video I have over a hour into, I don't know how much I'll earn for all this but you know a bloggers life was never profitable to begin with so I am definitely not doing this to survive.  As long as there's a site willing to pay something a little more fair something would be nice.  I'll admit it is hard watching others walk off with hundreds for some stupid shit post, even harder when your conscious is fighting you saying cheat, cheat it's more profitable.  Overall though some people can live with themselves cheating their way through life and others are happier knowing they've been honest with themselves and others.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Yes you got that right, I think the platform is severely underestimating rewarding curation works more to keep an engaged community/platform. It's difficult to use one's votes to curate (voting oneself is not curating..) when there's the trolley problem, hence the proposal of this post to minimise it. Thanks for your input @sunlit7 :)
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@tamaravelasquez ·
This is a great post. Steemit has enormous potential for creators, especially when you compare it to things like Medium's Partner Program, which is inaccessible to most users and based on a payment system that discriminates against creators from outside the US and Europe. However, most of the content here is essentially spam. So, the question I have, is how do we move towards a platform that allows freelancers to make a living with little barriers to entry without it falling prey to becoming a haven for low quality bot-generated content?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@teamsteem · (edited)
$27.31
**Before implementing linear reward Steemit Inc was against it, saying it would equal to giving away free money, leading to undesirable results.** The exact quote:

> In a world with honest people who don't vote on themselves to get "free money for nothing", a simple linear curve, aka n would produce a 1 share 1 vote proportional payout. This is the blue line and shows the ideal situation.  

> Unfortunately, we live in a world where people will attempt to game the system by voting for themselves. If everyone voted for themselves then the result would be simple interest payments and have no economic impact. @steemitblog ([source](https://steemit.com/steem/@steemitblog/details-on-proposed-comment-reward-curve))

The current design, linear reward, leaking away free money forever, explicitly to those who don't engage in proof-of-brain is less desirable than superlinear reward which prevented such leak. 

To put it more succinctly, investors set the price of Steem in fiat/btc/eth. Investors want to increase their wealth. 

If investing in Steem and voting for themselves all the time is the best investment, they will do it.

The selfless investors want to incite cooperation and will avoid participating in a system **unfairly** favoring the selfish.

Obviously, the rationale behind selfish behavior will push Steem votes ever closer to simple interest payments on SP.

Last month @abh12345 asked: "Are the selfless delaying the inevitable?" ([link](https://steemit.com/steem/@abh12345/are-the-selfless-delaying-the-inevitable-essential))

- 5 months ago @dan explained for the last time why the current system didn't make sense. ([link](https://steemit.com/eos/@dan/proof-of-good-governance#@dan/re-mikepm74-re-dan-proof-of-good-governance-20171231t224802732z))

Some of the conversations I had with prominent members of Steem in regard to Steem's economics incentives and more precisely the reward curve. 

- @ned ([6 months ago](https://steemit.com/roadmap2018/@ned/re-teamsteem-re-steemitblog-steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested-20171116t234659366z#@ned/re-teamsteem-re-ned-re-teamsteem-re-ned-re-teamsteem-re-steemitblog-steemit-roadmap-2018-community-input-requested-20171117t092824530z), [5 months ago](https://steemit.com/eos/@dan/proof-of-good-governance#@teamsteem/re-ned-re-dan-proof-of-good-governance-20180103t020637969z), [3 months ago](https://steemit.com/steemit/@steemitblog/steemit-winter-update-2017-reflection-our-vision-statement-and-mission-and-a-look-forward#@teamsteem/re-ned-re-teamsteem-re-steemitblog-steemit-winter-update-2017-reflection-our-vision-statement-and-mission-and-a-look-forward-20180221t185155585z))
- @kevinwong and @trafalgar ([1 month ago](https://steemit.com/funny/@kevinwong/embracing-linear-equality-on-steem-unlearning-the-sucker-and-maximising-the-arsehole-in-me#@teamsteem/re-trafalgar-re-kevinwong-embracing-linear-equality-on-steem-unlearning-the-sucker-and-maximising-the-arsehole-in-me-20180419t074420048z))
- @timcliff ([1 month ago](https://steemit.com/witness/@timcliff/steem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-aggroed-bid-bots-aren-t-the-devil-and-neither-are-linear-rewards-20180424t050600773z#@teamsteem/steem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-teamsteem-re-timcliff-re-aggroed-bid-bots-aren-t-the-devil-and-neither-are-linear-rewards-20180427t212300756z))
- @aggroed ([1 month ago](https://steemit.com/witness/@aggroed/bid-bots-aren-t-the-devil-and-neither-are-linear-rewards#@teamsteem/re-aggroed-re-teamsteem-re-aggroed-bid-bots-aren-t-the-devil-and-neither-are-linear-rewards-20180419t202223544z))
- @lukestokes and @smooth ([this week](https://steemit.com/steem/@lukestokes/an-argument-for-long-term-rational-self-interest-versus-short-term-irrational-value-extraction#@teamsteem/re-smooth-re-teamsteem-re-smooth-re-teamsteem-re-smooth-re-lukestokes-an-argument-for-long-term-rational-self-interest-versus-short-term-irrational-value-extraction-20180525t214723827z))

Linear could be proven to be a better system than n<sup>2</sup> but so far, no such proof exist. Proof that n<sup>2</sup> is preferable to linear exist and have never been disproven. 

My intentions are humble and just like every other Steemians I'm looking to better Steem.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (29)
@emperorofnaps ·
re-teamsteem-re-kevinwong-time-to-wake-up-and-fix-steem-s-voting-problem-20180525t234715215z-20180526t001810625z
You got a 17.27% upvote from @emperorofnaps courtesy of @teamsteem!

Want to promote your posts too? Send 0.05+ SBD or STEEM to @emperorofnaps to receive a share of a full upvote every 2.4 hours...Then go relax and take a nap!
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@mlgomez ·
This looks a tad shady :P
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@inventor16 ·
N2 can be exploited equally as linear, just need to divide steem among many accounts. The solution is account based voting imo
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@smooth · (edited)
Dividing among accounts makes no difference at all. Votes are added together before n^2 is applied. So (vote_A+vote_B+vote_C)^2 is the same as one account D=A+B+C with all the stake voting once.
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@teamsteem ·
Gaming it the way you're mentioning it isn't so straightforward. 

https://steemit.com/non-linear/@felixxx/more-n-2-47

And as Dan pointed out:

> At some point we must accept that we cannot prevent all evil. We just need to make sure that the amount of evil we tolerate doesn’t prevent Steem from growing.
Magnitude Matters

> If 100% of all rewards were distributed via a flawed system, then it could devalue the entire platform; however, if just 1% of rewards are distributed by the same algorithm then any misallocations can be tolerated.

> The trick is to identify the proper balance between incentives and the risk of abuse.
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@jaki01 · (edited)
$2.46
As I try to spread the ideas below I add my comment not only under the main article but also as response to your comment, because otherwise I guess you wouldn't get aware of it:

Some time ago I formulated some ideas to make self-voting, circle-voting and spamming less attractive by ...


- ... thinking about a <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/conciliation-of-the-reward-curves-die-versoehnung-der-reward-kurven">reward curve</a> which started as n^2 / exponential (thus flat), and then later changed into linear which would work against self-voting as well as excessive rewards.
@clayop had a <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@clayop/making-steemit-better-a-proposal-to-flatten-the-rewards-curve">similar idea</a>.


- ... implementing <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/ideas-for-more-justice-on-steemit-ideen-fuer-mehr-gerechtigkeit-auf-steemit">diminishing returns</a> when upvoting the same accounts (including own ones) again and again.


- ... reintroducing the restriction to four (or less) full paid posts per day (from some hard forks ago) which was very reasonable.


- ... considering also other ideas like the one of <a href="https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@scipio/how-to-solve-spam-on-steem-introducing-userauthority">UserAuthority</a> from @scipio.

When I wrote these articles some time ago I really had hoped that more witnesses/big account holders would have joined the discussion!
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@teamsteem ·
$0.12
> ... thinking about a reward curve which started as n^2 / exponential (thus flat), and then later changed into linear

I can see some merit to that. It would have to be thought of more carefully.  

The other 3 points should also be considered.
πŸ‘  
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@johnkramer ·
Why did not they block the opportunity to vote for themselves?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@jacek-w ·
Because it's not a problem to make a second account.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong · (edited)
$0.53
I think the "selfless/selfish" behaviour terms are not at all times representative and can be misleading so I'd prefer to avoid using them. With regards to the notion of *free money*, I'm having some reservations using the term as well, especially considering consistently high rewards some users are getting whether or not if PoB is effectively involved. But that'd be an argument of semantics in relation to behavioural expectations, not what reality actually is since we aren't 1-dimensional agents. I'd agree the leak is more flatly distributed across the board, unlike n<sup>2</sup> (or any superlinear curve) which congregates such leaks into something more manageable.

> Linear could be proven to be a better system than n<sup>2</sup> but so far, no such proof exist. Proof that n<sup>2</sup> is preferable to linear exist and have never been disproven.

Proof to be a better system in what terms? I guess there are different expectations all around. To me, linear has the shape of a fair consumer product, in that an acquisition and exercise of SP at any level isn't shortchanged by the system in favour of those with higher SP. I'd be pretty pissed off under n<sup>2</sup> if I purchase or earn 100 SP, but someone with 10x more SP has 100x influence when it comes to stake-weighted voting, instead of a linear 10x. However, n<sup>2</sup> does have its qualities, and on balance, I'd prefer taking only the best parts of it which are useful and hence, settling for something between linear and n<sup>2</sup>, even if only composed of multiple linear approximations to form something like, maybe, n<sup>1.5</sup>.

To repeat what I've posted previously about "slight superlinear":-
> Firstly, to reduce spam which is evident under linear. Secondly, slight superlinear makes it necessary for all voted content to have a minimum of at least one other peer validation from higher SP users in order for more substantial capital to be distributed, unlike zero validations at the moment. Thirdly, to congregate and amplify the best and worst voting behaviours for community self-regulation, instead of having them distributed flatly and widely like what we're experiencing on the network at the moment. Fourthly, to make vote bidding price discovery less predictable.

I think @trafalgar has commented with some better explanation and insights. So far, that's my take on it..

update: edited a little to clear up some wording..
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@spicetrader ·
$0.02
Steemit users circumstances vary. Some post "full-time" and need an income from this and also to cover expenses involved in making good posts. We like to believe blockchain social media has a long term future. So with a modest account myself I would rather give the votes away at least in the forseeable future to encourage Steemit user number growth. Hopefully the Steem price will rise sufficiently one day to make super capital gains.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@teamsteem ·
$0.73
> Proof to be a better system in what terms?

A sinking boat vs a floating one. 

The current system favors those who do engage in absolutely no work, aka proof-of-no-brain-needed. How could it be worst? 

> I'd be pretty pissed off under n2 if I purchase or earn 100 SP, but someone with 10x more SP has 100x influence when it comes to stake-weighted voting, instead of a linear 10x. 

That would be irrational. Linear devalue the whole platform and thus Steem. 

Regarding slightly superlinear, I think it would only slow down the desirable effects of superlinear. 

> The current curation reward system is designed to encourage consensus. It makes it profitable to vote with others and less profitable to vote elsewhere. The result of this system is to increase the contrast between posts with high payouts and everything else. **It serves to accelerate the process of reaching consensus without respect to the consequences of that consensus.** @dantheman
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@nathanmars ·
My intentions are also inline with the universe's intention to make a positive impacts in many people's life.

Good steemains over Evil steemains.. I know which side I'm in :)

β€œYou can fool some people some times but you cant fool all the people all the time” -  Bob Marley
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@nathen007 ·
Nice huge self upvote :-) attempt at irony perhaps ?
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@smooth ·
$3.40
> Proof that n^2 is preferable to linear exist and have never been disproven

This is false. It was demonstrated to work terribly. The premise that whales would behave better because they have 'more to lose' was and is entirely false.

I would love to have a better voting system and better align the incentive to adding value. I don't see it in n^2 (nor in any curve really, without other changes). I'm open to other alternatives.
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vote details (11)
@crewroe ·
This algorithm is the basis for an emerging competitor to steemit.. It's called Primas and is moving out of open beta and coming online this week. It's like Medium quality content with a community incentive system just like steemit but more fair and without the centralisation.
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@liberosist · (edited)
$1.09
Agreed, n^2 was a disaster then, and will arguably be even worse now. In a world where voting bots command much of the SP, you wouldn't want heavy super-linear. Linear or slight super-linear is better, but isn't an acceptable solution either. 

Stake-weighted voting has failed. This is no surprise, given weighted democracies have always failed throughout history, sinking into greed and corruption. There needs to be a radical rethinking of how the reward pool is allocated. Changing curves are no longer the solution.

I don't have an alternative, and neither have I seen one. The only suggestion I can make, that'll make Steem appealing to me again, is canceling the common Steem reward pool. Instead, let SMTs compete for the best solution. I'm willing to bet the SMTs that are moderated with account-based style voting will attract much of the actual community engagement. But the totally free market SMT competition (as Steem is today) has every chance too, if that's what the market leans toward. Steem benefits by being the core asset for all SMTs. I know this will come as a ludicrous suggestion, and I don't expect anyone to agree to canceling the Steem reward pool. But that's all I have to say, I've given up on trying to reconcile stake-weighted voting at this stage.

PS: The idea that the largest stakeholders will "act in the best interests of the network" has proven to be false, time and time again. This is no surprise, either, as throughout history the powerful have always acted in their own self interests. There will be always exceptions, of course, but such a system is unsustainable until *every single stakeholder of the network* is not selfish.
πŸ‘  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@teamsteem ·
$0.05
>  The premise that whales would behave better because they have 'more to lose' was and is entirely false.

Would behave within the limits of what the system allows. 

Rational people act according to what they have to lose or gain. The more they have to lose according to their pyramid of values, the more cautious they will be. 

> The trick is to identify the proper balance between incentives and the risk of abuse.

My premise is that, under superlinear reward, if the top of the pyramid sends too much of the reward back to themselves, this should decrease the demand for Steem, making the price to go down, decreasing the wealth of Steemians, making the system self-regulating. 

>  I don't see it in n^2 (nor in any curve really, without other changes). I'm open to other alternatives.

I'm also very much open to other alternatives.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@teenovision ·
we will know the output after some time
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@teodora ·
I would love to be able to say something when I resteem the context I like. In this case it would be that I would really wish that more people will act in the say way regarding the vote-awareness
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@themerge ·
How about we all get 2 SP power meters. One for self votes that drains 50% quicker than the one that is used for voting on creators, or some variation their of.
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@themoehawk ·
$0.29
Here I thought the Funny tag was gonna be all jokes and memes lol
πŸ‘  
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@kevinwong ·
haha sorry to disappoint. next one, i promise!
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@theninja117 ·
$0.30
Ok so I just joined, and now I'm confused to what I should and what I shouldn't be doing.
So are you people telling me I shouldn't be upvoting comments or content in general? That there are people who upvote their own comments for example and that is just fine to do here? 
What's the point of sharing something when you ill upvote yourself and make money through that?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Do whatever you want. My point is the economic incentives needs to be altered to so that those who somehow prefers to curate and support others not be left out so much compared to self-voting / vote-trading.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@toddrjohnson ·
$0.74
@kevinwong, I'm so glad to see posts like this one as well as all of the thoughtful commentary here. Sadly, this seems to be rare on Steemit. My impression as a person who is new to the platform is that Steemit is fundamentally flawed when it comes to meeting its stated goals of rewarding and encouraging high quality content. When you look at the "marketing" of Steemit and the FAQ, everything seems so simple: provide high quality content in the form of posts or comments, or upvote quality content and you will be rewarded. But do a bit of research and reading, and browse the site, and its pretty obvious that things are (1) much more complex than that; and (2) not working all that well. The issues that strike me as new to the platform are the 7 day limit on payout, the pay for upvote bots, the ability to upvote your own posts, the massive power of a few steemers, and the shockingly low quality of even posts that garner high rewards posted by users with lots of power. I've said in other comments that other sites are actually working to get high quality content. StackExchange is one such site with consistently high quality content. The other big problem is that there seems to be no real moves to address these issues by those who can actually address them. It is shocking to me that these issues were not already addressed. I could wrong about all this, but even if I am, how do you think Steemit will be build a strong user base if this is the kind of impression that new users get?
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
$0.03
You're right, I can't comment on the 7day thing, but Steem is a town with garbage strewn all over because it's incentivised at the moment.. lol. Hope this will make some changes away from inaction for so many months now.
πŸ‘  ,
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@toninux ·
so chaotic
https://media.giphy.com/media/atvAbYGL800EM/giphy.gif
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@tonygreene113 ·
Why fix a problem that keeps people around to exploit the platform?


Posted using [Partiko Android](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.partiko.android)
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@trafalgar · (edited)
$26.39
As from our discussions, I also believe that this is predominantly a problem of misaligned economic incentives. I also don't think it's inherently true that stake weighted voting necessarily leads to rampant bid bots/self voting and a trending page that resembles the spam folder of my inbox, it really all depends on how the economics of the system work.

A blockchain protocol needs to have a sound economic system that correctly incentivizes behavior that adds value to the platform and deters behavior that is harmful to the platform. 

With our current system of linear rewards with 25% curation, what is the best way for most large stakeholders to maximize value? Vote selling, self voting etc. Then is it a surprise that 50-70% of all active Steem Power is participating in these actions? No, it's completely expected. Well is this behavior good for the system as a whole? Of course not, it completely undermines the ability of this place to function as a content discovery platform, which inevitably leads to Steem price under performing.

As I've argued before, this is not a problem of individual misbehavior or bad culture or inability to discover good content or bad ui etc. We've just got a flawed economic system that provides the very action we don't want with the highest rewards. 

And realizing the fact that if all the stakeholders behaved contrary to their direct economic interest it'll be better for everyone including themselves is not a solution. No individual stakeholder can entirely trust the voluntary generosity of other stakeholders. And the only way to defend your own stake is to contribute to the very behavior that's making it worse for everyone. This is why you're finding it more and more difficult to continue being a 'sucker'.

I still believe with the right economic adjustments, we can make desirable behavior provide competitive or even superior returns to the problematic profit maximization behavior we have currently. Something like 50% curation, modest superlinear (which would incidentally solve most of the spam problems we currently have as well) and increased downvote incentives would be a good rough guide.

Lifting curation is a direct 'cost' as it basically is just a method of reclaiming your vote rewards (100% curation is basically = 100% self votes barring minor distribution differences). However I believe it's necessary for curation to have a chance of competing against the aforementioned behavior that's bad for the platform. Of course 100% curation would mostly defeat any incentive for content creators to create any good content so that can't be a real solution. Therefore, the idea is to come up with the minimum curation % that could still be reasonably competitive to current profit maximization behaviors when other adjustments are made. I believe that 50% is probably in the right ballpark.

The other two adjustments (modest superlinear and increased downvote incentives, for example separate downvoting pool) have the advantage of having no direct cost to the system. Admittedly they have significant indirect costs. On balance though, I think with the right numbers they can push the tip the advantage in favor of good curation over vote selling/self voting when it comes to profit maximization behaviors.

The idea is not to prevent people from maximizing profits. Relying on the collective and voluntary generosity of all the large stakeholders is a recipe for failure. The idea is to align profit maximization with behavior that's better for the content discovery initiatives of the platform.

With respect to SMTs and Good Person Tokens (1 account 1 vote, oracle etc) as a solution, I won't get too much into the details, but I'd say the best realistic case is that it's too far away and we'll need something in the interim. SMTs likely won't come until the end of the year (at best) and they'll need time to mature before they can really help in terms of content discovery and curation (even assuming they work perfectly).

Witnesses and developers should make changing our underlying economics to better align with good content discovery behavior a higher priority.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (34)
@charitybot ·
$0.07
Which retard at stinc originally thought to exclude the 50/50 SP/SBD split from the options curators can choose from as rewards? They really shouldn't sit in on any future discussions of economics pertaining to the blockchain.

Personally I think that it only makes sense that curating should give >50% of the rewards. Think of almost every great artist in history. Were the patrons of arts themselves the best artists and content producers? Fuck no. But wealthy people with discriminating tastes were somewhat successful in funding artists who were good at their jobs.

There is obviously no necessity that just being wealthy means someone has good tastes, or that having a lot of steem power from some shitty pre-mine makes you omniscient when it comes to choosing good art. But if we use common sense there's a clear pattern that arises when you look at people who are interested in art and creative pursuits versus those who are interested in wealth accumulation, and the pattern is that there is not much overlap between the two groups.

Wealth-maximizing individuals aren't going to judge their own content harshly, it's a very sordid affair to publish crap to self-vote or circle-vote on steemit. If we want the network to grow we really do need to minimize the incentive for such individuals to produce any content at all of their own.

It's quite likely that this was all designed as a nice get-rich-quick scheme for the founders, and we're all being strung along as a sick joke, but it would be nice if they at least pretended to know how and why other social media platforms are successful if they're going to be in charge of the one we're forced to use.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@crypto-econom1st ·
Can I be so curious why you choose to have 2 accounts? And how do you do that? Do you need to login and logout all the time? And how do you use the upvotes for both accounts? I'm just guessing this takes quite a lot of time?
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@cryptonfused ·
>I also don't think it's inherently true that stake weighted voting necessarily leads to rampant bid bots/self voting and a trending page that resembles the spam folder of my inbox, it really all depends on how the economics of the system work.

It does, and is a main factor but it isn't quite difficult to solve this.
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@flashfiction · (edited)
$1.77
This is an incredibly important subject to discuss. @kevinwong , and some excellent points, @trafalgar

I think something like what @exyle explained [here](https://steemit.com/life/@exyle/bkn0mb1y) is going to happen eventually.  

This way to go is placed somewhere in the middle: The big guns here will start financing / supporting projects instead of individuals. Projects that could give them a nice ROI, compared to selling upvotes. **A REAL, LOGICAL OPTION** for them to invest in. And these projects will benefit individual creators in different ways.  They could be a middle ground: Good for the whales, good for the minnows.

No more *"doing it for the right reasons"* or *"your quality does not deserve it!"* or *"effing trending page!!"*

Unless they really re-think the curating system and make it actually worth it against the alternative, I think this is a more down-to-earth solution.
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@igster ·
I think this issue of excessive vote selling has been in the back of minds of the many regulars on Steem and I wonder what is the consensus between the whales on this?  Do the big stake holders even have a place to talk about issues like this?
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@jaki01 ·
$1.86
As I try to spread the ideas below I add my comment not only under the main article but also as response to your comment, because otherwise I guess you wouldn't get aware of it:

Some time ago I formulated some ideas to make self-voting, circle-voting and spamming less attractive by ...


- ... thinking about a <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/conciliation-of-the-reward-curves-die-versoehnung-der-reward-kurven">reward curve</a> which started as n^2 / exponential (thus flat), and then later changed into linear which would work against self-voting as well as excessive rewards.
@clayop had a <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@clayop/making-steemit-better-a-proposal-to-flatten-the-rewards-curve">similar idea</a>.


- ... implementing <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/ideas-for-more-justice-on-steemit-ideen-fuer-mehr-gerechtigkeit-auf-steemit">diminishing returns</a> when upvoting the same accounts (including own ones) again and again.


- ... reintroducing the restriction to four (or less) full paid posts per day (from some hard forks ago) which was very reasonable.


- ... considering also other ideas like the one of <a href="https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@scipio/how-to-solve-spam-on-steem-introducing-userauthority">UserAuthority</a> from @scipio.

When I wrote these articles some time ago I really had hoped that more witnesses/big account holders would have joined the discussion!
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@karenmckersie ·
Great comment @trafalgar ! I am in full agreement, and all ready commented in @kevinwong s latest post! following you now and I really hope these suggestions get noticed, great job!πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘
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@karl-haynes ·
It depends on one's goals. Are they long term goals of growth and expansion in this emerging trends...or...do you want higher short term rewards at the expense of poorer and poorer long term growth?
People have a choice...let's see what happens.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@katharsisdrill ·
$1.58
Incentives are what changes things, not decent or moral behaviour. This is true in every other field - Cheaper solar panels and windmills are what it takes to get off fossil fuel for example - not combined friendly thinking. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2DJGIwhYWI
πŸ‘  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (8)
@karl-haynes ·
$0.29
...and if we took away the $5.4 trillion in subsidies to petroleum industry, that would de-incentivize using petroleum...
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@mistermercury ·
$0.30
You must be from the UK. Such good humor in the vid. Unfortunately, for now, you are right. Incentives are just that: motivation to change.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@silentscreamer · (edited)
Ill speak from a minnow point of view since i think even the voice of the small stake holders has some value.
I agree with your sentiments to some degree. What i think we need to take into account outside the 50%, 60%, 70% etc loss in potential profit for large stake holders is the external effect that stems from our actions on blockchain. 
Yes... In the short term it might seem you are at a loss of potential profit but as in real life societal growth depends on more then individual maximization of profit in short term. 

Acting in a way that Kevin is doing is adding to the value of the platform. Acting in the way those that self upvote, delegate massive amounts of SP to bots, is hurting the growth of steem. 

Our collective approach has a direct implication on the $ value. 
What Kevin is seeing is lower gains in comparison to those that act in the way that is a detriment to the platform. And yes i completely understand his frustration. 

Throughout human history more often then not those that act to detriment of society profit the most. Dan realized this which is why he put in a constitution on EOS. Pure ungoverned model does not work. People are so flawed that they are willing to completely kill any opportunity for long term gains in order to maximize short term ones. And here the few have all the power. 
What we are seeing now is what happens when you let people completely govern themselves without any set rules. 

They destroy themselves. 
This economic model could have worked if human beings werent human beings.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@teamsteem ·
$1.11
Any reasons to think this would be better than n<sup>2</sup>?
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@trafalgar · (edited)
$4.75
I do support modest superlinear (~n^1.3ish, but capped after a certain point, lets say after 1,000,000 sp worth of votes, then linear afterwards) in conjunction with higher curation (~50%) and increased downvote incentives

I think with n^1.3 you probably get most of the benefits of n^2 (wisdom of the crowds, forcing all 'profitable' behavior into the light, making it difficult to put a price on vote buying, higher curation incentives, gets rid of all 'profitable' spamming etc.) at a fraction of the cost (whales less overpowered, minnows less underpowered)

Basically at n^2, someone with 10x your voting power has a vote value that is 100x that of yours. In other words, they get 10x more voting power PER sp.

Under n^1.3 someone with 10x your voting power only has a vote value that's 20x that of yours. So their voting power per sp is only 2x that of someone with 10x fewer sp. It gives minnows a fairer chance and should be significant enough to enjoy most of the benefits of n^2 outlined above, especially paired with higher curation and more downvote incentives.

Basically it all comes down to trying to get profit maximization behavior to shift from what it is now to actually voting for good content (at least subjectively), but at the least cost in terms of trade offs.

So sure, you can do this by making curation 100%, or with a curve that's n^10 (extreme examples to illustrate this point), but the trade offs are too high. The idea is to shift things around just enough to move the economic equilibrium away from brainless vote selling/self voting but leave as much on the table for content creators and minnows' voting power as possible so they have a worthwhile time being here.
πŸ‘  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@transparencybot · (edited)
<h3>This post has received votes totaling more than $50.00 from the following pay for vote services:</h3>

smartsteem upvote in the amount of $124.11 STU, $167.85 USD.
promobot upvote in the amount of $55.35 STU, $74.85 USD.

**For a total calculated value of $179 [STU,](http://steem.supply/rewards) $243 USD before curation, with a calculated curation of $45 USD.**

This information is being presented in the interest of transparency on our platform **and is by no means a judgement as to the quality of this post.**
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@trumanity ·
The assumption you make is so large you can't see it. Every person gets to decide what he thinks good content is. So forgive me for laughing at your presumption to be in any position to suggest there's anything wrong with content or people's behavior as it is today. I was expecting a bit more than general opinion when I saw the high payout on this post but I guess somebody likes what you're saying. Let me assure you as you not in general terms as you have all of us,  IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUALITY OF THE CONTENT. 
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@kevinwong · (edited)
I think you've misread. I'm totally saying what you're saying lol.
to make it clear: everybody should just do whatever they want. what i'm proposing here is to alter the econs so that whoever that somehow finds themselves curating and supporting others to grow the network not lose out as much as those who are just self-voting or vote-trading (making use of all their SP only for themselves)
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@trumanity · (edited)
perhaps - but I doubt it
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@umair123 ·
Oh wow such a great post i love it.
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@unimatrix0 ·
![9C7335AD-D9CF-4426-99B6-2193CE1E8A5C.gif](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmR6anux8gGAqJxBqFefHUsQ2pbuQvQcM1Vnx3529sHUwr/9C7335AD-D9CF-4426-99B6-2193CE1E8A5C.gif)

Agree! Seen that a lot already. I also see that some actual interesting and good posts stand no chance because of some (my opinion) voter rings. 

I really saw bad quality, stolen stuff and so on getting votes.. but a lot posts that took actual work are left out.

I try to give out my votes.. why would I like my own stuff? I mean.. I posted it, therefore I probably liked it. Liking your own stuff will never be something else than sucking your own dingeldong.
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@wales007 ·
Well researched full of informative, enlightening, educative and also entertaining post @kevinwong the steemit platform is just the best place to be ! Great work buddy best of regards!
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@wanuma ·
Btw, what's the difference between steemit.com and busy.org?
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@abh12345 ·
Not much, they do mostly the same thing.  Different development team.
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@waybeyondpadthai ·
$0.30
This is what I meant, #wentdeep 
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Too deep haha. What you meant? This? lol
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@waybeyondpadthai ·
Like, I come back every so often just to read the posts that I may miss. A lot of news on steem I found here from your posts  (ex. steemhunt / musing) so sometimes, I kinda am a smarter steemian being BUT sometimes (for example, this post - literally read through it 2 times!), I feel like I'm so damn dumb LOLOL Look at all the essay comments people discuss then look at my 1 sentence. , Tho, soon, I will get it. I've been learning! LMAO

I'd better get outta here. 

Cheers ❀

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@wf9877 ·
$1.45
I have mentioned a suggestion for solve self-voting problem before:
Halving everyone's voting value: 50% for self-50% for the others (curators and the author). If the voter is also the author, then the latter 50% all go to curators. So no matter who you vote, you will get 50% of your vote value.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@yahialababidi ·
$0.87
*Sigh*  There's a strangled rant in me, that I'm trying not to choke on.  Lately, beginning to question if posting on Steemit is the best use of my time, given spammy nonsense, diminishing returns and talking-into-the void-syndrome...

This was satisfying to ready, @kevinwong.  Now, back to rallying & hoping against hope things change:

>***Not everybody is a motherbleeping bestselling author, especially not all the time!***
In fact, the network could use more curation works. Now most users are just posting whatever and accumulating to no end, encouraging spammy behaviour. And please, even if your posts are consistently highly valued in trending, it doesn't mean your content is actually good or if you're a great content creator. Do not delude yourself, especially if you've been selling your soul to do so.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
$0.17
Oh well still better story than most platforms. I mean I like Aeon.co and Medium.con, but why not Steem based equivalents one day?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@yahialababidi ·
It's *because* it's better that one demands more from it and does not wish to see its potential wasted or corrupted.  Thing is, I've never been a daily blogger, before Steemit, and my doubts about platform come and go--but, I'm not ready to throw in the towel, just yet  :)

Steem based equivalents sounds intriguing and that's, partly, what keeps one hanging on: the hope of new possibilities... Have a good weekend, Kevin (and I hope I wasn't too much of a downer).
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@zamzamiali ·
Hope everything is okay and the damage is not too bad. You are a great person, able to make small fish grow, making them better prepared for facing the sea of Steemit.

**Keep working @kevinwong and best regards..**
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