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Call To Attention: Proposed Yes/No Voting Hardfork by klye

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· @klye · (edited)
$2.45
Call To Attention: Proposed Yes/No Voting Hardfork
<center>http://puu.sh/qEVKH/5994bc9b57.png</center>

I would like to call to attention Dan's proposed hard fork to implement a new voting system.
An  outline can be seen on github: https://github.com/steemit/steem/issues/279
I'm just helping spread the news of proposed plans to help get the communities thoughts on it.

For those of you lazy and not wanting to click the above link, what bytemaster( @dan) has written in regards to the proposed hard fork can be seen below:

"<h3>First Principles of Steem and Voting</h3>

Every proposed change, payout, should be subject to a virtual YES / NO vote
If one user is able to vote YES, then another user should be able to counter it with a NO
In a perfectly expressive voting system two users with equal stake and perfectly opposite opinions could actively cancel each other's opinion (resulting in a tie). Whenever there is a tie, the decision is left to the remaining voters.

<h3>Avoid a Voting War</h3>

Rather than making everything subject to a YES / NO vote and starting a voting war which could be won by whoever has the most aggressive bot with the "last say", we can automate the process. Automating the process saves the network bandwidth, solves the "last vote wins" issue, and also solves problems caused by people being unable to perfectly counter someone else through limits in the normal voting pattern.

<h3>Countering Upvotes</h3>

It is currently impossible to counter the profits someone earns by upvoting without causing unwanted side effects.

<h3>Witnesses Voting</h3>

In an ideal world there would be no limit to the number of witnesses someone could approve. This is the nature of approval voting. Due to resource constraints each account is limited to approving 30 witnesses. This limit makes it impossible to express an opinion of approving "everyone but X" which would normally be expressed by upvoting everyone but X.

It is currently impossible to counter someone voting for collusive and/or abusive witnesses while remaining neutral toward the remaining witnesses.

<h3>Countering Vote Spam</h3>

Vote spammers flood the network with low value practically meaningless votes. These users are limited by bandwidth but still cause a net negative impact on the platform. There is currently no way to prevent this spam short of censorship.

<h3>Implementation Details</h3>

Every account shall have the power to "oppose" another account with a certain number of VESTS via a new operation:

oppose_account  account opposing_account weight_vests 
The impact of this operation is to temporarily reduce the number of VESTS both accounts can vote with by weight_vests for one week. It can be renewed at any time to extend the period by 7 days from the time of transaction.

An account must have a positive number of votable VESTS in order to oppose another user. This means that a user who abuses negative voting would be unable to renew their negative positions against other users while they have a negative votable VESTS balance.

<h3>Limits on Number of accounts Opposed</h3>

Due to resource constraints and to prevent a single whale from actively negating thousands of normal users, the weight_vests must be greater than the min account creation fee. It must also be greater than 1/256 of the initiators VESTS.

In practice this means that a whale can oppose at most 256 people and that a minnow can only oppose a single minnow. The number of people you can oppose grows linearly from 1 to 256 until your VESTS equal 256 times the account creation fee.

<h3>Rationale for 1 week period</h3>

By having a 1 week period it becomes possible to negate someone's negative vote against someone else. In other words, you can force them to negate you rather than the person they are currently negating.

Without this maximum time, then applying a negative vote against someone else could not be countered or would require an unbounded amount of potentially ambiguous computation to recursively remove negative votes.

It is undesirable for people to be locked in opposition "for ever". People should be given a chance to redeem themselves unless there is active intervention. It would take a dedicated villain to run a bot to automatically start abusing again after expiration or to automatically renew opposition against someone for no reason.

<h3>Additional Side Effects</h3>

With this feature it is possible for whales to "agree not to vote" and let the dolphins (who are greater in number) curate.

<h3>Economic Analysis</h3>

There is a real opportunity cost associated with negative voting. Any whale engaged in such a practice is giving up the curation rewards they could be earning. They would also be giving up their own positive influence. This means that there must be clear economic reasons to engage in negative voting which should minimize its abuse."
(Taken from steemits github as mentioned above)
<br> <br> <br>
<h1>My thoughts?</h1>
Personally I think this will create more problems and would like to know how I can vote against the system that has been proposed on this hard fork. Not only does the proposed system completely change the fundamentals of the Steemit/Steem platform but it also allows for heavy abuse potential from users engaging in otherwise shady behaviour.

<h1>This type of system is NOT the answer</h1>

If this system is implemented what will end up happening is those that do no not have time actively use steemit will have their power harmed. Although I would like to see folks rewarded for constant use of the platform I do not believe that putting penalization in place for account inactivity is the correct method.

The problem at hand is not the lack of a downvote system.. But so much the severity of the flagging. It should be taught that users just ignore content they do not support rather than down flag it and potentially harm others reputation on the site. The complexity in this may be something I lack full understanding of, but I can tell you that an implementation of the hard fork proposed above will entirely change the dynamics of the platform... <b>edit:</b> I see now that the hardfork proposal is showing as closed, glad to see this but we still need to brainstorm as a community so these sort of proposals aren't even bothered with.

<h1>Potential Fixes in Steemit's Future</h1>

Although it is clear the current system needs changed it's also incredibly clear that a system like the one proposed above would likely end up causing more harm than good. A potential idea that I had earlier was instead of implementing a yes/no style voting system that we focus more on educating users proper flagging and also perhaps look into a downvote button that doesn't affect payout nor reputation. Flagging is too severe for some cases... But users still feel a need to express negativity towards some posts. While I understand that users want to be able to voice a their negative concerns against certain posts is that not what comments are for? I think by implementing a downvote button you're inviting blind hate... and when you start affecting people's payouts, livelyhoods and reputations and allowing hateful downvotes.. You're doing it wrong.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 12 others
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vote details (79)
@anduweb ·
Hey @klye, glad to see you posting this. I don't always check back on GitHub to see what's happening there as sometimes there are things super important like this one.
I also believe just as @dan that such a proposal would do more harm and the solution is in user education rather than applying penalization.

I think the penalties rep-wise for abusive posts are more than enough for the moment and also, ignoring them would make them stop eventually.
PS. The dots guy is just insanely funny even though valueless-ish, wondering how long he'll keep at it :):)
https://steemit.com/@dots
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@klye ·
I actually like dots. lol

I appreciate your input on this and glad you agree with me. :)
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vote details (3)
@bendjmiller222 ·
I'm torn about the using of the flag button. A flag alters reputation, and I feel that there should be another option.

I came up with my own idea after thinking about how I believe the current downvote/flag system is handles. [New Content Flagging With Feedback](https://steemit.com/steemit/@bendjmiller222/new-content-flagging-system-with-feedback) @smooth and many others weighed in and I came to my own conclusion.

For me there should not only upvotes and downvotes/flags but three separate options altogether.

1.) An upvote button (with the option to select why you upvoted via a dialogue box - humor, thought provoking, well written creative _____ fill in the blank)

2.) A downvote button that only effects the payout and again has the option for you to say why you did not like the content. (Overvalued, repetitive, _____fill in the blank).

3.) The flag button which would prompt a user to need to select a reason why the content was flagged and which would be used to hurt reputation (whether plagiarism, hateful etc). I go into more detail in the link.

I believe people should be able to downvote without needing to give a reason if they don't want, but flagging is a different story. If you flag and don't leave a reason why, the person who posted the article or comment has no idea why you did that. It has happened to me more than once.

If you see "Oh I was flagged for putting this in the wrong category," you can address it and let the person who flagged you know you changed it (or any other infraction) A general consensus on what should be flagged should also be brought up.

I think this would allow people to feel more comfortable downvoting things they don't think deserve the money they will get, without questioning whether or not a reputation deserves to take a hit at the same time.
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@cheetah ·
Hi! I am a content-detection robot. This post is to help manual curators; I have NOT flagged you.
Here is similar content:
https://github.com/steemit/steem/issues/279
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vote details (3)
@klye ·
Yes Cheetah. I quoted that  above and gave proper credit (I think)?
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@williambanks ·
@anyx your pet is humping someones leg again.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@cheetah ·
$0.02
Hi! I am a content-detection robot. This post is to help manual curators; I have NOT flagged you.
Here is similar content:
https://github.com/steemit/steem/issues/279
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vote details (3)
@demotruk ·
I actually think this system is pretty genius. It is a much cheaper way (from a blockchain bandwidth and human attention PoV) of policing obvious trolls and abuse while being costly to the one doing the policing in terms of stake.
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@klye ·
I think taking the human element out of troll squashing is terrible.

As a community we should be able to decide what is good.. Not just a few power users.

I do value your opinion though. I didn't think of it from that perspective.
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vote details (4)
@demotruk · (edited)
We're already forced to take the human element out of it, this actually brings the human element more into it than the bot vote war going on all the time now. If bad behaviour can be automated, then policing it has to be made cheap from a human attention PoV. This system allows one invested human to review a user's voting behavior and, at a personal cost to themselves (in the way of curation rewards) negate their abuse for a short period. Human judgment is involved in the process. Of course it can still be removed, but the same is true for virtually anything in this ecosystem since there is no way to prove an actor is human.

I am interested to see them iterate on the idea and if they can come up with something more agreeable to users. Incidentally there are limitations to your own proposed solution of teaching users to flag better (it does nothing to voting abuse, you should be able to say you disagree with rewarding a user so highly without hurting their reputation, and it can't keep up with the attention of a bot) as well as William Bank's proposed solution on GitHub.
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@gikitiki ·
$0.06
This is a lot to digest.  Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
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vote details (1)
@klye ·
No problem. As much as I like to have fun and draw here I also have my eye out for the future of Steemit.
I think decisions like this made without proper public consensus will end up hurting things in the end.
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vote details (3)
@kainmarx · (edited)
I'm with you @klye.. It's not a good decision.. At all.. It will alter too much.
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@klye ·
That proposed fork changes all the fundamentals in my opinion.
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vote details (2)
@kefkius ·
> It would take a dedicated villain to run a bot to automatically start abusing again after expiration or to automatically renew opposition against someone for no reason.

That sounds super automatable, given that the process is one `oppose_account account opposing_account weight_vests` operation. Wouldn't really take a "dedicated villain" is what I'm getting at.

If you watch for patterns, you'll see that this change is another with the goal of moderating Steem (e.g. hidden posts via reputation). Moderators (or "janitors" as they're more accurately called) can be very beneficial to the overall quality of a platform, but there's no clear way to do it in a decentralized manner. So we're gonna have more changes like this one I think.
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@klye ·
I hope you're not right Kef... :/
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vote details (4)
@leksimus ·
Well, something has to be done about this spamming of upvotes everywhere and following. I doubt that people will use that feature much. It would be evolvement, and we for sure need some kind of downvote, which opposing vote would be. I think it will improve freedom within a platform. 
I feel it is a good concept that will eventually lead to something better. There is no need to be afraid of change.
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@klye ·
Right now our current "downvote" or flag is too harsh.. Ignoring it and not upvoting is just as good as a "downvote" in my opinion.. Of course not everyone see's it this way.
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vote details (4)
@omfedor ·
>It should be taught that users just ignore content they do not support rather than down flag it and potentially harm others reputation on the site.

Yes, the fact. Otherwise many will simply go into a negative mindset, focusing on what they don't like. And this is very bad for the system and dangerous for the people themselves.

>system like the one proposed above would likely end up causing more harm than good.

Agree. This is definitely not the best proposition.

Thank you, @klye! And I'm glad that the hardfork proposal is showing as closed now ;)
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@klye ·
The ideal still exists that we need downvoting I guess though..

I'm not sure what the answer for this is to be honest.
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vote details (6)
@rampant ·
This is a totally stupid idea.  Dan clearly doesn't understand the very human aspects of this system.  It's not about goofy bot games.  It's a SOCIAL network.  Find ways to reward good users, not screw around with voting systems.  The only point should be to find and curate good content and reward it.  Canceling a vote?  That has NOTHING to do with this.  It just invites politics and stupidity.

I already wrote a long post about how to solve the current problems here:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@rampant/how-to-fix-downvoting-a-set-of-proposals-for-a-solution

All of these recent proposals are going in the WRONG direction, and likely to kill steemit rather than help it grow.  A good voting system should encourage engagement and collaboration.  Complicated political crap like this is the total opposite of what a next gen social network should be about.
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@team101 ·
I'm a newbie so this is a lot of info to take in  but thanks for the information.
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@klye ·
This doesnèt seem like it will be implemented but I think something similar is on the horizon.,
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vote details (2)
@timcliff ·
Dan did post to the github issue that they decided to remove this from the hardfork.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/5c9236_b342b03c833a4cab8d7c5233ee64669c~mv2.png?dn=github.png
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vote details (3)
@klye ·
Good info here.. I am still a firm believer they should be announcing these proposals on a bigger forum (such as here) as well as github in order to get a larger user consensus.

Appreciate the screencap though sir.
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vote details (2)