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RE: How to buy a VIVA Crown with euro via kraken. by kyle.anderson

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com

Viewing a response to: @williambanks/re-kyleanderson-re-williambanks-re-kyleanderson-re-kenny-crane-re-kyleanderson-re-kenny-crane-re-chrisaiki-how-to-buy-a-viva-crown-with-euro-via-kraken-20170429t011148395z

· @kyle.anderson · (edited)
I **strongly** disagree with the VIVA economic parameters. They have created a complex system without a clear understanding of what exactly will happen when game theory is applied. I don't want a lecture on the meaning of naive, I happen to have experience in this area and am familiar with the project. 

>Each VIVA Crown Holder has one vote (regardless of the number of Crowns she may possess) in all of the important decisions that affect the VIVAconomy. No one has more influence.

This quote is a prime example of the misunderstandings regarding how decenteralized networks function. After my assessment, this project is not bringing anything worthwhile to the table. The ICO serves only to make some early investors some cash.

*edit* - I could be very wrong about the ICO intentions but looking at the economic parameters, I am not very confidant about the technology and economic theory behind their stable coins. Projects like [MakerDAO](https://makerdao.com) and [StabL](https://medium.com/stabl-blog/stabl-bringing-stable-tokens-and-derivative-products-to-the-ethereum-blockchain-df4d5eba89d9) offer much more compelling stable token projects.
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@alechahn ·
You are just thoughing around lots of assumptions and statements and no arguments. Once you have written a single argument I 'll consider reading more of what you have to say. Otherwise this is just a big opinion blurp.
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@kyle.anderson ·
It is entirely my opinion right now, no code to judge. My argument centers around the lack of a proven economic model - especially needed when dealing with a complex network. This problem is exasperated with the seemingly Sybil prone Crown model.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@williambanks · (edited)
It's interesting you feel this way.  

You say that it's complex and you don't understand it all.  That's ok it does take a long time to think it through.  

I'm really glad you're taking the anti side on this. 
It means you're trying to think it through and I'll be the first to admit that it does "feel complex", but so does every other crypto currency and we're a lot more than a crypto currency;  We're a new economy with new goals.  

Unlike EVERY OTHER crypto out there.  The crypto currency VIVA is not an end unto itself.  It is a means to accomplish a certain specific set of goals.  

These goals are to reduce economic friction, eliminate government and banker waste, decentralize control of the financial system and provide a stable reliable platform that people can build real businesses on without fear of interference.  

At the same time we counter balance that by acknowledging that jobs are going away, compute and network resources are being commoditized and yet people still need to eat.  So we take half the energy of the system and use it to feed the greater economic good of those who really do need it most.  We seek to provide a living wage for anyone who wants to be part of this *and they don't need to buy a single damned thing to begin*.  

Just like they don't need to buy anything to start making money by posting on steemit.  We have a system to reward content creators and half of the fees generated by the network go specifically into that system.   The biggest difference in that regard is really that all votes are worth the same amount and each vote goes to a person's long term fund called the VIP or VIVA Investment Pool.  

Balancing all of this out, is complex.  We're trying to balance financial responsibility with social responsibility and in most cases, these are at odds with one another.  It can be done, but it needs a reassesment of why things are they way they are in your so called "cryptoeconomics".  I mean have you ever considered what really happens in every other crypto when you get bad actors?  

You mention high minded concepts like "game theory" but don't provide any actual analysis.  I did though, my off the cuff post comparing the theory aspects of various consensus models is one of the most viewed and shared articles in my entire posting history and even ended up on several crypto news sites.  So yes I've applied "game theory", as well as economic theory.  But I will be more than happy to debate this with you.  It's literally my favorite thing to do on the internet.

I know you're better than this.  But your comments read like you don't actually understand what you're talking about.  You sound like you are rejecting the ideas based on the fact you don't understand rather than providing any actual analysis.

I would LOVE to read an actual analysis from you.  You have the time to comment you don't like it.  I would hope you have the time to explain what *exactly* bothers you other than the fact you're feeling like the complexity it too much to understand and you don't like the parameters.  For instance what parameters?  There's about a hundred of them and they're all configurable.  Can you call some out that you think are misconfigured at least?

I know I come off as harsh, but it's only because I'm exhausted right now.
I look forward to your responses.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@kyle.anderson ·
>You say that it's complex and you don't understand it all

No, I said that it is complex and that because I understand it, I assert that the developers do not know what they are doing. 

>we're a lot more than a crypto currency; We're a new economy with new goals.

Enough with the advertising. 

>These goals are to reduce economic friction, eliminate government and banker waste, decentralize control of the financial system and provide a stable reliable platform that people can build real businesses on without fear of interference.

What of these is novel?

>all votes are worth the same amount and each vote goes to a person's long term fund called the VIP or VIVA Investment Pool.

No way this is resistant to a [Sybil attack](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack). I do not think their structure for governance will work. I do like their use of Hyperledger. The incentive structures of the ICO launch and their valuation are questionable. I haven't seen any code yet...
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@williambanks · (edited)
>No, I said that it is complex and that because I understand it, I assert that the developers do not know what they are doing.

I get you said that.  But then you failed to provide any support.  I can assert that you don't know what you're talking about too.  Again I'm not attacking you, just your premise.   Demonstrate something, anything.  Simply saying you have some mystical secret knowledge that you don't have time to share with the rest of us, isn't cutting it and is undermining your position.  

You're providing the anti-side which is sorely needed and yet you aren't giving me anything to work with here other than ad hominems and that's the hallmark of a shill or a troll and I've seen your work before so I know you're above that.  Thus I'm left to conclude you're about to [summit a particular mountain](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2475) and just aren't aware of it yet.

>Enough with the advertising.

Sounds like an ad, but it's not.  We're actually doing this.  We have the business deals in place to accomplish it and the experience to make it happen.

>What of these is novel?

Show me a single platform that does this.  Otherwise the novelty is in the fact that no other platform does ALL of this.

>No way this is resistant to a Sybil attack.

Sure it is.  There's no such thing as a Sybil in this system.  You have stake you can vote.  No stake, no vote.  You paid for your stake or you earned it from someone who did.  

Wanna vote for yourself?  Go right ahead, as long as you have sufficient VIP stake you can vote and your vote is worth the same as anyone else's.  

Compounding effects mean it is more financially beneficial for you to vote for yourself than to try and vote a dozen accounts to the minimum stake requirements and have them circle vote eachother to death.  In other words, you make more money by just straight up being greedy, than by trying to game the system.  How much more?  A lot more!  Why?  Compounding effects.

All extra stake buys you is the ability to vote more times in a day.  But no matter how much your VIP stake is, the draw down rate is the same 24 VIVA daily.  So why try to Sybil?  A rational actor wouldn't do it, and an irrational actor would be harming their long term earnings.  Game theory FTW.  

> I do not think their structure for governance will work.

Fair enough, but you've not shown any sort of reason why and you opinion, while important, isn't necessarily the correct one.

Our governance model isn't novel in the real world.  It's just novel in the crypto space.

In the real world, it's worked for over 100 years and the economies who have adopted similar models are the strongest in the world.  So let's try that one again.
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