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My proposal: reduce the withdraw channel from 104 weeks to 104 days or even 104 hours to make steemit less like a ponzi scheme by laonie

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· @laonie ·
$50.57
My proposal: reduce the withdraw channel from 104 weeks to 104 days or even 104 hours to make steemit less like a ponzi scheme
![ponzif8375.jpg](https://www.steemimg.com/images/2016/09/08/ponzif8375.jpg)

## A lot of whales are powering down , even @ned @dantheman is doing the same with their's personal account, if you all want to exit so badly , why not free yourself?

At least, the market would find it's balance more quickly.
And, i believe this is one of the main reason that some of the potential investors hesitated to buy STEEM.

@sykochica 
I'm with laonie on this one. You could even limit this to the investors.

Personally I can see safety in tying up author reward SP for a longer period. Like in the case of plagiarists who'd cut and run with everything they could. Or in the positive sense of earned author reward SP that's locked in longer getting some people to look a bit farther ahead or feel more invested.

@gomeravibz 
yes exactly @laonie i have invested quite a bit of real money into steem power because it is the driving force behind the steem machine surely. I want this too !! But the powering down is too long for us real believers who have put their money where their mouth is. Whereas the people who have invested little but can write get it all and then run to the bank taking all the value with them. It does seem a bit hard on us true believer who have chosen to walk the walk here in this community !! great point i upvote this idea !!

@kimziv
The liquidity is terrible , if the withdraw time is shortor, i will buy more.
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vote details (212)
@airmike ·
$0.02
With full respect guys. If you want to solve the problem of liquidity then let's solve the problem . It is not a good idea to serve paracetamol and orange juice if arm is broken.

 I wrote about few solutions. for example here in comments  [liquidity](https://steemit.com/steem/@profitgenerator/scientific-steem-forecast-bad-news#@airmike/re-profitgenerator-scientific-steem-forecast-bad-news-20160906t143618962z)

also here [liquidity2](https://steemit.com/steem/@airmike/how-to-save-1-of-any-steem-transaction-on-the-exchange)

https://s18.postimg.io/otfki9vk7/liquidity.png

poloniex and bittrex are sitting on the tons of STEEM and SBD. They have  part of equity but they are doing nothing so far.  If i understand well those money was given to prevent free falls because they do not hold SP at all.  am I right ?  tell me.  I don't know nothing about deals between P&B and founders but I am not so sure if there is any emergency scenario. Maybe they think that  situation is not that bad.  It is at least curious because all market cap depend on few ridiculously small trades on the market with low liquidity.  I am sure there are plenty of solutions how to solve this. 

internal market is dead but not due low liquidity. It is by lack of interest or time to build a proper one. internal market needs upgrade. Adding BTC should be a priority but anyways In my opinion this is not a problem of liquidity. 

Frankly, I don't care about withdrawal period because I am happy to see how this system works.  I am just curious why is problem still here when was discovered 2 months ago.  

most important thing is, that lot of Steem has been sold. So maybe there is some budget how to fix the price.  Only think I am not sure of it is needed. for me is low price ok. I I don't care. I would like to see improvements in here. not on the market. I want to be sure this project is well funded.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@christoryan · (edited)
So what you are proposing is allowing the minnows and dolphins to power down over a shorter period of time? It doesn't sound like a bad idea but im not too sure that would work..Wouldn't that cause too much liquidity in the platform forcing steemit to die..? IDK just curious :D
👍  
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vote details (1)
@doitvoluntarily · (edited)
i don't think everyone powering down is doing it because they want out/an exit? they just want to take out a bit of money to fund various projects - if they are doing so well on here then why would it be in there interest for this platform to fail/go to 0? :-/

thx for this post/your thoughts! upvoted!
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@littlescribe ·
It is true. They've got to pay developers, and there are a good dozen of them, which is a good million and a half or two per year. They need to pay administrative costs, legal costs, HR crap. It's a full fledged biz. There's maybe a wee bit of overhead! So we do need to cut them some slack. 

However, I haven't decided whether @dan and @ned are in it for the long haul or not. If I were them, I'd want to build a legacy. I'd want to be the first cryptocurrency to be a long-term, self-sustaining, stick-it-to-the-man system that defied banks and government influence and gave strength to a new way of being as a culture. That's what I'D want. I like to think this is the case for these guys. Watching them on vids and interviews, they strike me as the type who'd prefer this to succeed long term. There's ego at play here. I think it's an impressive thing to build. They seem to ferociously reward anarchist material. They seem to really be driven to outdo bitcoin's unstable model. I like to think they are in it for real. 

But on the other hand, well, then there's all that filthy stinking money. And it's theirs for the taking. Um....you'd better REALLY believe in the cause not to power down.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dantheman ·
$0.07
I cannot speak for other founders, but I can tell you I am firmly committed to finding free market solutions to securing life, liberty, and property.  

Founders need to be secure in their own life, liberty, and property in order to make long-term plans without fear of the day to day price movements.  This means diversifying my own investments to make sure that regardless of what happens in the economy and/or steemit, I have the financial stability and safety net.

If 99% of your net worth was tied up in a speculative investment such as Steemit, do you think you would diversify?   

Diversification is *risk management* and has nothing to do with  confidence and/or belief in any given platform.  I believe very strongly in what we are doing here.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (12)
@smooth ·
Money to pay for development comes from 'steemit' account which was created for that purpose, not from the founders personal accounts. It is far bigger than the personal accounts (in fact the account holds about 50% of the entire supply) and it has also been powering down and selling, though to a large extent on the internal exchange. Not entirely though.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@fundurian ·
if everyone can cash out 100% in 10 days, the value of each steem will quickly drop to 0.000001 because with only 80,000 member, steemit do not worth 100 million dollar
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@hedge-x ·
I upvoted you b/c that's precisely why I bought SP.  I did not want to deal with the short term pumpers and dumpers.  There's plenty of alt coins that will allow you to buy and sell no limits.  Steem also gives you the same opportunity to trade it.  Powering up you is your choice.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@littlescribe ·
Completely with you here. I want to keep my holdings in place as they grow. I believe in this crazy platform.
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@inertia ·
Upvoted because it's so ridiculous.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@inkbit ·
Powering down should be a sliding scale. You should choose the amount you want to power down, and that amount determines the time frame. So $10 would be an hour, or $100 a week, or $1000 a month, etc.  That way, you can find liquidity in small amounts that you may need, but large amounts will take longer.
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@jyezie ·
2 years is way too long. The day you need that money you cannot get it fast. Think about it , the day you decide you want your money back you will wait 104 weeks so if you put $1000 you get less than $10 per week ? I am not even talking about all the complicated way  they compute the price and stuffs. It 's like from day 1 , you power up and you power down right away. There is just no way I am powering up
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@kingscrown ·
i like where this is heading - lets see what others think
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@kyriacos ·
@laonie

I am actually waiting for a $300 power up. I do cash out a similar amount but i think it is a reasonable stradegy
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@lemooljiang ·
过长时间的锁定增加了资金的风险,这是大多数人所不愿看到的。
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@linkback-bot-v0 ·
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@michaelmatthews ·
$0.28
This post is dumb. The reason the 104 week withdrawal period exists is because STEEM is getting inflated at a staggering 100% per year to pay the authors & curators.  The 104 week period is the only thing holding the price up.  Without it, the STEEM price goes to zero and the whole thing collapses.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@mohammed123 ·
Agree with you, right know I need money but I can't withdraw because the x10 fee is not reached yet
👍  
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vote details (1)
@noganoo ·
$0.02
I think this is a great idea.  There is no reason to lock people in for 2 years.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (18)
@pfunk ·
$0.49
There are plenty of reasons for the 2-year (1-year average) stake time. Read the whitepaper. https://steem.io/SteemWhitePaper.pdf
👍  , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (11)
@ats-david ·
Yep. And there are plenty of reasons why the selling from whales has been entirely premature. There isn't enough user interest and there isn't enough currency/investor demand. The current problems are self-inflicted.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@oflyhigh ·
I totally agree with you on this idea! Upvoted.
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@ottodv · (edited)
Another suggestion, especially aimed at small investors, would be a [minimum power down allowance](https://steemit.com/steem/@ottodv/introduce-a-minimum-power-down-allowance).
👍  
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vote details (1)
@q1248 ·
$0.32
Interesting idea.
I don't think people are powering-down because they want out. They do it, because they can't freely sell. But they could rebuy at any time if they powered down, so the best thing to do if one holds a lot of SP is  to power down ASAP. Everyone wants the forbidden fruit.
For this same reason i haven't bought any steem yet. Why should i  ? If i bought, the first thing i'd do with them is to power-down. I'm going to wait for the powerdowns and inflation to do its works, and then when/if steem breaks out of it's downtrend i'll buy.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@smooth ·
Insightful.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@rainchen ·
Actually people got bit of confuse in this platform , one platform two bosses , 3 systems , hundreds of rules , which one we should push which one we should pump which one we should dump ? 
Should I buy **STEEM ? STEEM POWER OR STEEM DOLLAR**? 
Which one should we pay attentions to ? 
The value of this platform splitting into so many ways , get rid of steem dollar , just use one systems and with that we can see where this place really want to go , either it goes down or up . 
That My 2 cents anyway.
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@seth-krings ·
I completely agree.  Let the weak hands dump!  Great article again, Laonie.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@solarguy ·
I have not yet invested money into Steemit but now seems to be the right time.   I would be for the long haul if i did put money in so I don't know if 7 day power down would effect my future plans.

But if i had an emergency and need to liquidate 7 days would be a pain in the butt. 

I have felt no difference in my user experience with whales powering down.  I can't see how it effects me as a minnow.
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@hedge-x ·
You mean 2 years powering down, not 7 days?
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@steven1980 ·
同意
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@thecryptofiend ·
I understand your reasoning but personally I feel that the reason for the delay is sound.  Changing it now would cause mass panic and make it easier for speculators to use Steem for day trading.  Whilst this might help the price in the short term I suspect the long term effect will be detrimental.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@timcliff ·
$0.52
I'll play the devil's advocate and argue the other side.. The two year limit was put in place for a reason. It was to separate the short term traders, who do a lot of market manipulation from the long-term investors. By locking up around 95% of the Steem in a 2 year contract, the overall market cap is able to remain a lot more stable - which is needed in order for everything to work. If the entire market cap of Steem was a liquid asset that people could buy, hold, and then dump huge volumes of Steem at a time. The market manipulators would be able to run the show.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (14)
@ats-david ·
Yeah - there's no reason to be in Steem Power if you don't want to hold long-term. The problem isn't that powering down takes too long. The problem is that the initial "investors" are trying to cash out before the platform can sustain itself - because it's still in beta/development.

The largest stakeholders have jumped the gun on selling and now they want to be let off the hook for it. If they were worried about bringing in new investors, they would not have started dumping their holdings so quickly. 

Steemit isn't ready for what has been happening with powering down and dumping on the external market. It's just that simple.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@littlescribe · (edited)
This is the one reason I have been less than impressed with the business model. I appreciate the 104 day holding, for sustainability and growth. I think most of us are all for it in principle. And I'm not opposed to people investing real money, and investors powering down. What I'm NOT ok with is how investors get little to nothing of what they invest, and whales, or should we call them sharks, are running off with the loot. If there were a cap, or whale restraint demonstrating a little more long-term intention for bringing in new investors, the 104 holding wouldn't be a big deal. I expressly did NOT invest my own money in this system because I saw the current trend as a potential casualty for me. Call my cynical. Had I seen a greater potential for ROI as a general trend for initial investors, you BET I would have. I feel angry for people who have put their eggs in the basket and watched as their steem goes out to pay less "deserving" candidates who either write crappy stuff, or who never invested in the first place (like me). I value this platform, I believe in it more than anyone, I put long hours into my mining, and I'm investing my sweat, but it's pyramid at best with the current power downs. Even without the power downs, it would still be very top heavy. But I still think we can change that, with initiatives like @robinhoodwhale, and with smaller networks coming up from the ranks and building a middle class. When we move up in ranks, WE can reward the minnows and initial investors, and create a better balance in this unstable ecosystem. I don't think we're doomed. I think we're just dealing with a very typical human-run system. Them's the shakes. But it'll work itself out. It won't ever be fair. Their will always be gamers, cheaters, bamboozlers, and greedy bastards. But it will still find a way to level out a bit. I like to think. 

I am all for the holdings though. I'd do it even if it was not required. I like keeping my SP steadily growing. It is important for the economy.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@recursive · (edited)
$0.15
Whales are not one homogeneous well policed group that makes decisions as a quorum. Whales are individual, independent selfish rational economic agents. Even if 99% of the whales were doing the right thing and holding their stake, there would still be a more short term minded selfish 1% that would be dumping, and it's that 1% who would reap all the rewards of everyone else's effort. Since every whale is aware of that, and everyone prefers being in the 1% who are selfish rather than the 99% who are being screwed by the 1%, everyone acts selfishly. That's a known behavioral / game theoretic phenomenon called the [tragedy of the commons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons). The only way to avoid that is to design the rules of the system in such a way that stake holders best interests are always aligned regardless of their short or long time preference, and always lead them to safeguard and nurture the common resources (here liquidity and user satisfaction). That's what @ned and @dan are trying to do by tweaking the rules, with lukewarm results so far.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@timcliff ·
@ats-david - It may not be as much of a problem as you think. As you pointed out - the site is still in beta. Other than the price completely crashing to the point that it dies, we should not really worry about the price that much right now. Once the site is more complete (which will probably be another year or two), <em>then</em>&nbsp; we should worry about the price and attracting serious investors. For now, everything is just getting started. 

**No matter how low the price goes (unless it goes completely to zero) - a lower price just means more opportunity for minnows/whales to increase their stake at a lower cost.**

You should check out the post <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/down-down-we-go-and-why-that-might-not-be-a-bad-thing">Down Down We Go – And why that might not be a bad thing</a>
👍  
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vote details (1)
@satoshifpv ·
lol right now there are only 2 market manipulators and I think you can guess who they are...  This post is a great idea and I've been saying the same from the beginning.  Locking people up for 104 weeks does a few things: 
1- tricks some people 
2- when people find out they are locked in they get mad or leave 
3- locking people in is effectively trying to manipulate the market (in the end the market will decide)
4- why not let the FREE market determine the value of the platform, not tricks and larinomics
5- the argument smooth makes about voting with multiple accounts makes ZERO sense if the power down period is more than 24hrs... so 104hrs or 104days works.   Also a rule could be put in place that does not allow a user to vote with new steempower for 24-48hrs (delaying the vote power like locking up staked coins for a #of confirmations)
6- I believe with almost 100% certainty the power down time will change but the large holders need to cash out more first. Then they will change the time limit stating is was "DEMANDED BY USERS" lolol of course this was all part of the plan but I'm one of the few people who see the big economic picture.

As I've said before, this platform is great, unfortunately the economics incentives "larinomics" are highly flawed.

Time will tell...
👍  
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
> the argument smooth makes about voting with multiple accounts makes ZERO sense if the power down period is more than 24hrs...

The initial voting period for a post can extend for up to two weeks (especially if someone has an incentive to deliberately extend it) and the second voting period runs for 30 more days. One of the most widely requested changes from authors is to extend voting even longer so they can continue to be paid for work which has long-term value. That sits in direct contradiction to making the vesting period shorter.
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@smooth ·
$0.39
That's not even the only reason. There are structural reasons within the system as well. For example, if you can power down quickly and then power up into another account, you can vote twice with the same stake.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@littlescribe · (edited)
OK. So then show some transparency, as @ats-david suggests. Where is the money being spent? Who is getting what? Where does it go? How many developers are on the docket? What are they earning? Is it enough? :0) 

@smooth, you are one of the whales a lot of people tend to like (except for recently when you censored @dennygalindo for comparing @steemit to synereo...I was not really a fan of that move. You're entirely entitled to your opinions, but that made you seem more like you had some kind of pact with the Steemit poker club and you'd be watching over us like Big Brother. It also gave us the impression you weren't actually confident enough in Steemit to let it speak for itself. I like to think you meant well. 

You do keep us in line, though (like when you temporarily voted down @steve-walschot for unintentionally vote-buying...when he was trying to be supportive of the minnows: https://steemit.com/steemit/@steve-walschot/how-my-best-intentions-almost-lead-to-a-flagged-account-by-smooth.) 

We want/need to trust the direction of Steemit, and the CLOSEST thing we have to that is tracking the moves of the whales. There is a "warrent buffeet" effect here. It's the same with any major corporation...the big guy makes a decision, the little guys follow. 

You curate a lot. You contribute a lot. People listen to you. We see you as an individual: less sea creature, more human being. You have voted for 340 unique writers here. (@berniesanders has voted for more than double that, but I don't know how many of those went to sock puppets...so it could be a cheap number...but I digress)

You hold 16% of the voting influence here, if you include @smooth.witness. And this is no small feat. (stats here: https://steemit.com/stats/@clayop/how-much-do-whales-influences-on-rewards-introducing-new-statistics

Investors need transparency. We also like to know things, such as whether there should be rules against sock-puppet accounts, and what the business plans are for the next two years, five years, ten years. 

What are your thoughts? 

The Release Candidate is great, but a little "what's coming next and why" from the owners couldn't hurt anyone. And a little more, easily accessible, transparency with top earners/investors couldn't hurt anyone either. 

Agreed, or not?
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@satoshifpv ·
"Better solution: you put your money where your mouth is, buy it up, and hold it."

It would be much more efficient to just send the money right to you... ... this statement is absolutely disgraceful.  

You Sir, should be ashamed of yourself.

http://i66.tinypic.com/29nuekp.png
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@timelapse · (edited)
Definitely interesting proposal - today I noticed email invites beginning to materialize so this shows the intent to grow the user base of those not joining directly via FB or the other channel.  Currently the wallet is undergoing maintenance on Bittrex (Steem) not sure if that is related to the 20% decline or ?  
It is still a great platform though the massive early cashing out does not inspire a lot of confidence.  I can only imagine that your huge investment has seen a significant haircut... one that you cannot even liquidate to trade.  

Seems the downward pressure will only increase until someone decides to reinvest which will only provide a temporary boost/spike.  We'll need it to be a sustained injection to support this sort of mass bleeding out.  Frankly, I'm impressed it's held up this well so far.
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@wongshiying ·
If a fiat currency withdraw told need 2 month to finish the withdraw, I surely don't want that service....
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