**Thoughts on GRC [002] – How the user experience could be improved (1)** *In my [introduction](https://steemit.com/gridcoin/@maanzecorian/thoughts-on-grc-001-introduction) I talked a bit about the BOINC/GRC relationship and benefits, but also mentioned that there are a few aspects that might keep people away from GRC. This article will focus on these very aspects from the perspective of a newbie GRC miner.* There have been a few discussions lately on [reddit]( https://www.reddit.com/r/gridcoin/), github, [steemit]( https://steemit.com/trending/gridcoin) and [slack]( https://teamgridcoin.signup.team/) about possible strategies to attract more miners, since more miners = more computation = more science. While I agree with this sentiment, I think we should take a look at current roadblocks first: 1) semi-required investments & resource availability 2) (newbie) user experience 3) lack of long-term investment options (GRC only) 4) lack of long-term applications (GRC only) I feel these are the four major aspects that prevent non-/semi-altruistic people to join Gridcoin, respectively to start mining in order to contribute to the BOINC/GRC relationship and/or to simply make profit. While the (newbie) user experience, as well as semi-required investments and resource availability impact both GRC and BOINC, the lack of long-term investment options and applications is rather currency related and does not directly impact BOINC, yet may influence future development of this collaboration depending on what choices will be made. Points 3) and 4) will be discussed at a later time – right now, I would like to focus on 1) and 2) during the first few articles of this series, since there is plenty to discuss imho. Besides I consider these two roadblocks more relevant regarding the BOINC/GRC relationship, especially for potential miners who are not interested in making profit with the coin but would rather support BOINC and are looking for a way to get a tiny reward for their semi-altruistic intentions. _____ Let’s begin with the **semi-required investments** first, as well as resource availability, because this is something that prevents people from joining in the first place – or at some point discourages people to continue, depending on how someone was introduced to BOINC/GRC. What I mean by semi-required investments is the (not really essential, but often perceived as essential) need to invest into hardware in order to participate. Looking at BOINC only, there is no high-end hardware required since there are plenty of tasks that run on old machines. With the availability of tasks that require high-end hardware and with the introduction of Gridcoin, it seems to have caused an artificial dilemma: people who are semi-altruistic start to calculate which projects are worth their computing power, respectively which projects have the best rewards for their system in a certain amount of time. This is causing two issues: i) For one, people who have old systems but want to make more profit are led to believe that their contributions are meaningless, possibly coming to the conclusion that they shouldn’t run any BOINC tasks in order to mine GRC but rather not waste any resources at all. These people either never really get involved with BOINC/GRC or lose interest quickly because "their numbers" don't increase fast enough. Another group of people (let’s call them hardware investors) actually does have enough cash to upgrade their hardware and may do so, as long as they can find project tasks that generate enough GRC to at least get their investments back, as well as operating costs. Among these are also people who want to make actual profit, while at the same time supporting science. Hardware investors will not quit right away because they are still willing to support the science, especially because they already spent some cash on a better rig – but there might come a point when they decide to focus on more profitable mining, which basically reduces the potential amount of resources for BOINC over time. ii) The second issue is – other than gravitating towards more profitable mining – that some projects may experience a decrease in popularity based on the BOINC/GRC relationship and how the current system is rewarding contributions (resource donations). This then may force projects to adapt to a situation that didn’t exist before: a competition among projects to convince users. Currently it is really difficult to analyze this effect, but taking a look at newbie discussions one can sure find recommendations what projects to pick in order to have a better start. I'd argue this draws away potential miners from certain projects in the long run. The other aspect is **resource availability**, which is basically the availability of hardware and electricity in a broader context. With the latest development in crypto, respectively the recent mining hype, hardware (especially GPUs) have become less available either due to massive increase in price and/or due to bulk purchases of miners. This also had impact on BOINC/GRC newbies during the past months if someone wanted to buy certain GPUs to optimize their system. Furthermore, electricity costs can differ a lot, which also can be seen as resource availability because people with high cost of power will either try to find high return projects, high profit coins (not GRC) or just not mine at all. _____ I would argue this is neither the fault of BOINC nor GRC, since it can simply be attributed to well known human characteristics. Yet, these are (for some people) legit reasons to not join BOINC/GRC after consideration of all aspects – or less motivation to continue to contribute, thus moving on to mine other coins instead. One might argue that we do not want these kind of people anyways, right? If they are not willing to donate their resources to BOINC for free and even are not satisfied with the rewards they get opting into the Gridcoin team, then their attitude is simply not compatible with the mainly altruistic approach of BOINC/GRC, thus: disqualified!  However, if we want more people to join the BOINC/GRC efforts, we need to think about solutions how we could motivate potential miners, despite high energy costs, despite lower rewards compared to other coins, and despite old hardware. When Gridcoin was introduced, it was the first step to convince semi-altruistic people to give BOINC a try. And while I think the collaboration was a good choice, it wasn’t enough. Now there are a few **hypothetical** options that could create incentive: a) better rewards, especially for newbies b) better project/task filters to find profitable projects faster c) better rewards for older systems d) better rewards for users with high electricity costs _____ *Note: these four hypothetical "suggestions" have caused a lot of confusion. Please read the comments for further clarification.* _____ Before you get mad, please let me explain the thought process behind these suggestions first. The main problem seems to be that *some* semi-altruistic users (especially newbies) need more convincing than others. A better reward system (read: more GRC = more profit), a better “how can I make profit faster overview” and some sort of “electricity cost multiplier” for certain user groups would increase their motivation to join and also keep them long-term. The very core of this approach is basically leveling out major differences based on location, it would factor in regional living standards due to global economic developments and would also change over time depending on what is going on on this planet. It would create a link to geopolitical and economic circumstances. To be honest – while I like this approach in theory – I think it wouldn’t work out well. Simply because it depends so much on the monetary reward system – not to mention the complexity to code this properly. But even if this was possible, it wouldn’t really change much imho because it’s still all about the ~~science~~ money in the end. _____ *As a side note: it would support old systems (which consume too much power anyways) and in general encourage a rather wasteful contribution. Especially because of the link to BOINC and thus science, we should consider a more environmentally sustainable approach. This is something we should keep in mind for the future about the very nature of BOINC/GRC. Because – as cool as it is to use old and/or "high consumption" hardware to help out science – efficiency and proportionality should be discussed imho.* _____ I don’t think BOINC/GRC's main motivation should be mining GRC for profit and I also don’t think it would be healthy for the relationship long-term. Instead I would like to suggest an approach that might transforms non-altruistic people into semi-altruistic people, as well as semi-altruistic people into *more* altruistic people. But why? Because someone who is in for the profit will move on once there is something else to make more profit with. And people who are just semi-attached to a project because of semi-profit will also leave at some point if they can't find a reason to stay, e.g. something of real value or meaning regarding their resource investment. Therefore I think we need to work together more closely with the people behind BOINC, but especially with the scientists. I am convinced that promoting their work and helping them becoming more popular will allow the entire BOINC/GRC symbiosis to achieve something really great that could have positive impact on the entire science community: **a massive increase in participation**. This will have mainly two outcomes imho: for one, it will benefit science a lot. The fact that many people actually do not realize how important it is to contribute to BOINC and how much it helps these scientists is another reason why we need to spread the idea by using GRC as a promotional asset. At the same time, GRC will benefit a lot because new miners will join the project. This will make GRC more popular as well because it won’t be just some little coin but a currency that stands for a certain standard and attitude, alongside meaningful utilization of resources. _____ So finally, some actual suggestions what could be done to achieve a long-term incentive to join BOINC/GRC despite the current drawbacks compared to other coins: **1) Better/more interactive project/task overview** What we really could use is a Whitelist 2.0 that functions as a major intersection between BOINC and GRC. It should contain up to date information about each project, available tasks and results of past computations. This basically includes direct links to published papers, as well as a project summary explaining to people what the project is about, etc. These informations are mostly already available on different project sites but it can be a real hassle to find out more about these projects. I suggest something like a wiki that can be easily edited by scientists and dedicated curators (could be payed with GRC). It may also include suggestions for hardware setups or some comparison charts to help estimate power consumption among other characteristics. It also could include promotional material like pictures, graphics, etc. pretty much everything that turns a boring "we are currently looking into xyz" into a more hyped version.  **2) More communication with scientists to help promote their projects** This could include all kinds of things, starting with the above mentioned wiki-like interactive Whitelist 2.0 up to making/sharing content about projects, e.g. related videos, interviews, podcasts, etc. If we can help them promote their projects, more people will develop an interest and long-term incentive to actually contribute. This is something most people really underestimate, but looking at how Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, Brian Greene or Carl Sagan promote(d) science, they certainly were able to fascinate kids and adults alike by showing the exciting aspects of science. **3) Project roadmaps** This is also a bit 1) and 2) but an important aspect, which I would like to talk about seperately. People need to see/understand what their resources are used for and why that matters. There already are research goals listed on some sites, but they need to be more visually appealing and readily available imho. F@H uses animations to display current tasks – I don’t think we need this inside the client, but we could introduce similar interactive visual content for the interested audience who maybe doesn’t want to read about a project just yet. Having such material creates not only incentive to check out a project in order to consider helping out but also might motivate to dive deeper into the project itself even though the science behind it might seem discouraging at first glance. **4) Project suggestion hub** We have (or had) polls to vote on projects. In regard of manipulation concerns, but also general availability we should maybe think about implementing a project suggestion hub where people can make a case for projects that are not whitelisted or should be re-listed. Since I’m a newbie I don’t know how this was handled until now and what criteria have been relevant – but I would at least suggest to have a solution that gives insight into different projects – all in one place – so people don’t have to browse different sites to find out if they want project X to be whitelisted or not. GRC should be decentralized – but the information can be centralized for a better overall user experience. **5) Additional prestige reward systems** The gaming industry introduced achievements – love ‘em or hate ‘em – they are now a feature most people want to see these days because it gives them a feeling of actual achievement. How about we implement something similar that functions as an “emotional reward” for all the work a user’s computer has done? I really think such a system would encourage people to stick with certain projects a bit longer and develop some sort of beneficial relationship, possibly leading to a permanent contribution. The prestige reward system would give miners all kinds of badges with hopefully silly titles and quotes that are referencing scientists and/or science fiction characters, rewarding miners step by step for achieving certain goals. So many options to do this and make it a fun challenge for everyone, possibly adding some reasonable GRC rewards when reaching certain milestones as well. _____ I think this is enough food for thought for now. I will cover the above mentioned (newbie) user experience in [003] of this series sometime later this week, focusing mainly on setup, configuration and user interface. I also might include a more in-depth segment on the prestige reward system and how that could be implemented. I’d like to emphasize these are just my humble suggestions based on my first 6 weeks being part of the BOINC/GRC experience. Feedback is always welcome and I’m really excited to have a constructive discussion :) _____ [Thoughts on GRC [003] – How the user experience could be improved (2)](https://steemit.com/gridcoin/@maanzecorian/thoughts-on-grc-003-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-2)
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i |
category | gridcoin |
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created | 2017-07-11 00:32:54 |
last_update | 2017-07-12 12:29:36 |
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root_title | "Thoughts on GRC [002] – How the user experience could be improved (1)" |
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
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wackou | 0 | 520,294,141,916 | 3.69% | ||
anu | 0 | 595,115,682,000 | 20.5% | ||
kushed | 0 | 1,006,565,406,855 | 41% | ||
rossco99 | 0 | 138,889,751,378 | 12.3% | ||
boy | 0 | 4,170,604,506 | 100% | ||
xeroc | 0 | 300,532,030,842 | 12.3% | ||
steem-id | 0 | 41,813,864,523 | 12.3% | ||
bue-witness | 0 | 5,085,347,880 | 100% | ||
bunny | 0 | 684,466,870 | 100% | ||
bue | 0 | 93,803,951,664 | 100% | ||
mini | 0 | 2,229,118,885 | 100% | ||
moon | 0 | 283,417,379 | 100% | ||
gandalf | 0 | 83,473,235,074 | 8.19% | ||
healthcare | 0 | 830,724,759 | 100% | ||
daniel.pan | 0 | 1,314,226,045 | 100% | ||
hcf27 | 0 | 201,503,274 | 41% | ||
helen.tan | 0 | 285,405,698 | 100% | ||
blakemiles84 | 0 | 70,702,146,854 | 12.3% | ||
theshell | 0 | 30,935,676,559 | 12.3% | ||
midnas-howler | 0 | 435,123,048,019 | 41% | ||
samether | 0 | 1,829,060,839 | 12.3% | ||
michaelx | 0 | 19,545,385,316 | 12.3% | ||
anwenbaumeister | 0 | 1,179,163,621,682 | 41% | ||
albertogm | 0 | 9,556,958,473 | 12.3% | ||
roelandp | 0 | 74,978,986,187 | 1.23% | ||
fkinglag | 0 | 2,934,391,638 | 100% | ||
vortac | 0 | 1,696,139,386,942 | 49% | ||
diana.catherine | 0 | 3,719,036,090 | 4.09% | ||
raymondspeaks | 0 | 11,792,063,580 | 41% | ||
phenom | 0 | 14,938,893,980 | 12.3% | ||
bitcoiner | 0 | 25,969,187,220 | 12.3% | ||
ben.zimmerman | 0 | 11,391,677,321 | 20.5% | ||
mondeja | 0 | 1,432,647,174 | 41% | ||
arconite | 0 | 2,106,647,821 | 8.19% | ||
fatboy | 0 | 263,666,014,078 | 41% | ||
gomeravibz | 0 | 20,603,034,111 | 7.38% | ||
craigslist | 0 | 562,107,902 | 100% | ||
toxichan | 0 | 11,507,334,326 | 41% | ||
brendio | 0 | 64,138,323,672 | 9.84% | ||
velourex | 0 | 75,334,417,112 | 41% | ||
randyclemens | 0 | 18,741,374,669 | 41% | ||
cmorton | 0 | 2,349,346,631 | 4.92% | ||
sethlinson | 0 | 11,057,314,392 | 12.3% | ||
hilarski | 0 | 91,862,484,690 | 41% | ||
nulliusinverba | 0 | 2,163,862,749 | 12.3% | ||
sammie | 0 | 2,450,149,232 | 41% | ||
randomli | 0 | 3,958,149,045 | 41% | ||
dan-bn | 0 | 57,987,881,838 | 12.3% | ||
ebargains | 0 | 19,674,694,697 | 41% | ||
allyouneedtoknow | 0 | 10,670,882,819 | 24.6% | ||
tracemayer | 0 | 8,019,885,712 | 12.3% | ||
paxmagnus | 0 | 261,247,729 | 41% | ||
teseo | 0 | 2,565,710,428 | 41% | ||
steemsquad | 0 | 3,020,107,012 | 41% | ||
develcuy | 0 | 3,202,998,460 | 8.19% | ||
steemedia | 0 | 4,274,430,517 | 41% | ||
pakganern | 0 | 8,897,616,949 | 100% | ||
meerkat | 0 | 88,926,075,625 | 41% | ||
zoee | 0 | 2,001,541,435 | 41% | ||
curie | 0 | 3,151,881,689,972 | 41% | ||
cebymaster | 0 | 10,532,345,910 | 41% | ||
ninkhisibir | 0 | 4,095,650,459 | 41% | ||
rarcntv | 0 | 967,022,786 | 41% | ||
hendrikdegrote | 0 | 24,785,408,981,983 | 41% | ||
johnniec | 0 | 15,734,665,215 | 100% | ||
black-eye | 0 | 233,507,014 | 100% | ||
erelas | 0 | 2,216,259,444 | 100% | ||
sstefan | 0 | 14,116,977,499 | 16.39% | ||
starrkravenmaf | 0 | 3,382,831,826 | 8.19% | ||
garvofe | 0 | 893,366,576 | 3.69% | ||
chronosamoht | 0 | 4,626,146,424 | 100% | ||
cotidiana | 0 | 4,809,126,923 | 41% | ||
detol | 0 | 2,788,141,709 | 41% | ||
sellergenius | 0 | 1,674,978,029 | 41% | ||
beeskee | 0 | 9,709,075,243 | 41% | ||
m4wllt | 0 | 3,024,625,824 | 41% | ||
cheah | 0 | 19,171,975,084 | 41% | ||
marcosespes1 | 0 | 4,022,550,999 | 41% | ||
septiyanachmad | 0 | 672,678,906 | 41% | ||
heymattsokol | 0 | 24,143,816,612 | 41% | ||
cgame | 0 | 551,535,398 | 4.09% | ||
ammadkhalid | 0 | 2,981,573,866 | 41% | ||
dunia | 0 | 536,960,920,581 | 41% | ||
steemitboard | 0 | 109,122,127 | 1% | ||
krizia | 0 | 7,531,075,086 | 41% | ||
sn0n | 0 | 1,819,968,037 | 41% | ||
cwatch | 0 | 14,174,580,945 | 50% | ||
torkot | 0 | 1,483,169,687 | 12.3% | ||
libertylol | 0 | 2,585,220,383 | 41% | ||
jinaa | 0 | 10,007,445,583 | 100% | ||
vadbars | 0 | 1,546,560,347 | 100% | ||
mckenziegary | 0 | 12,285,852,209 | 41% | ||
gaultier | 0 | 260,644,314 | 20.5% | ||
caweyant | 0 | 12,869,742,447 | 41% | ||
mhaimo | 0 | 82,504,979 | 4.09% | ||
awesomianist | 0 | 1,799,865,291 | 4.09% | ||
ilvacca | 0 | 1,376,195,884 | 20.5% | ||
aarkay | 0 | 149,433,192 | 100% | ||
wonka | 0 | 780,392,257 | 41% | ||
kskarthik | 0 | 388,041,108 | 100% | ||
grider123 | 0 | 2,090,398,626 | 100% | ||
nrajesh | 0 | 878,886,368 | 4.09% | ||
indiantraveller | 0 | 289,555,177 | 4.09% | ||
gabystories | 0 | 3,055,267,436 | 41% | ||
headliner | 0 | 4,177,575,323 | 100% | ||
bp423 | 0 | 7,127,786,545 | 41% | ||
gigafart | 0 | 157,694,930,755 | 4.09% | ||
alpinegiant | 0 | 6,064,526,022 | 100% | ||
oscarcc89 | 0 | 217,528,316 | 41% | ||
gohba.handcrafts | 0 | 2,234,907,679 | 41% | ||
hqmafa420 | 0 | 1,356,413,915 | 41% | ||
netgains | 0 | 253,540,076 | 41% | ||
experiencia626 | 0 | 137,471,937 | 4.09% | ||
fatpandadesign | 0 | 2,292,245,239 | 4.09% | ||
cryptbay | 0 | 612,019,900 | 100% | ||
cryptohustler | 0 | 1,589,122,381 | 41% | ||
dattabitcoin | 0 | 1,070,726,169 | 24.6% | ||
brianjuice | 0 | 1,680,004,132 | 41% | ||
jringo | 0 | 5,195,291,029 | 100% | ||
trumpman | 0 | 1,023,813,405 | 100% | ||
agilblade | 0 | 633,850,709 | 41% | ||
horcrux22 | 0 | 1,474,238,290 | 100% | ||
vm2904 | 0 | 2,382,570,283 | 41% | ||
theissen | 0 | 1,160,707,603 | 100% | ||
cryptolife1 | 0 | 98,214,066 | 10% | ||
johnyboi | 0 | 2,193,693,772 | 41% | ||
randell | 0 | 952,737,041 | 100% | ||
polina21 | 0 | 794,999,027 | 100% | ||
cobloc | 0 | 191,384,774 | 8.19% | ||
satfit | 0 | 1,748,088,730 | 41% | ||
dovlet | 0 | 552,268,811 | 41% | ||
shadeless | 0 | 453,837,660 | 41% | ||
pjaypresunto | 0 | 707,641,902 | 41% | ||
hoho | 0 | 2,851,393,370 | 41% | ||
flaminghedge | 0 | 3,154,586,150 | 41% | ||
mzungu | 0 | 1,161,775,549 | 100% | ||
jezykowaty | 0 | 2,113,311,981 | 100% | ||
boosterpack | 0 | 869,306,987 | 41% | ||
hassanabbasawan | 0 | 324,995,471 | 32.79% | ||
oronia112981 | 0 | 1,161,274,742 | 100% | ||
brazilfootball | 0 | 0 | 10% | ||
joseburgos | 0 | 232,138,619 | 100% | ||
nightshift1134 | 0 | 1,249,915,304 | 100% | ||
wayfaraway | 0 | 163,634,987 | 10% | ||
promoted | 0 | 94,340,719,861 | 3.34% | ||
virtualgrant | 0 | 1,097,438,094 | 100% | ||
wildbill2 | 0 | 0 | 100% | ||
voltash | 0 | 197,316,489 | 20% | ||
justaskbigjohn | 0 | 1,652,473,565 | 41% | ||
geneeverett | 0 | 133,478,158 | 100% | ||
mychild01 | 0 | 318,769,783 | 12.3% | ||
mychild02 | 0 | 318,774,316 | 12.3% | ||
guitarbren | 0 | 1,160,675,525 | 100% | ||
jawadamjad | 0 | 470,072,919 | 100% |
I read both your first post in this proposed series, and this current post. Due to the fact I disagree heavily with a lot of what is said, I had decided not to comment. However, as you asked me to fill in my opinion as a scientist who wants to add their project to BOINC, and as a BOINC cruncher, I will try and explain my thoughts on this article. I think that while articulated well, the article demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding not only what the Gridcoin network is, but also how it functions and what is already available. As I do not yet see a response nor an upvote from some of the core active members of the GRC Steemit and development community, I would be interested to see what their opinions are too. You began by opening a list of four areas of suggested improvement, but as you only chose to address the first two I will only respond to those: ### Problem 1: 'semi-required investments & resource availability' You say that there is a requirement to have high end hardware, and that this will drive new potential recruits away from the scene. Then go on to say that there is a case to consider on the: > availability of tasks that require high-end hardware and > which projects have the best rewards for their system in a certain amount of time First and foremost, lets look at how the Gridcoin POR payout distribution system actually works. Every day, the total POR payout pool is split equally between the number of projects within the whitelist. The payout within each project is then split based on the magnitude (and thus based on the RAC) of individual users. There is no such thing as tasks which require high end hardware, nor are there project that are best for a user's system, bar a few notable exceptions. As long as you run a CPU project for your CPU, and a GPU project for your GPU, you will get a fair payout for your system. Maximising your payout then depends on doing the work units of the project with the least competition. This encourages Team Gridcoin to spread its compute equally accross the whitelisted projects. The notable exception to there being no 'tasks that require high-end hardware' is GPUs that are specifically built to excel at FP64 (double precision) tasks will massively outcompete all other GPUs. This is currently only relevant in MilkyWay@Home, and you can easily avoid this project if your GPU falls outside this bracket. I think this has also proven that this is not actually a problem, but a feature: > This then may force projects to adapt to a situation that didn’t exist before: a competition among projects to convince users. ### Problem 2: '(newbie) user experience' You mention that as a result of GPU scarcity and power price differences across the globe: > people with high cost of power will either try to find high return projects, high profit coins (not GRC) or just not mine at all. That is crypto mining in a nutshell. Any coin that requires work, whether POW or DPOR will be affected by power prices and GPU availability. It is not the job of the network to subsidise based on this differentiating feature. I know several users who buy and ship GPUs across the globe to perfect their rigs, and they do so cheaply and profitably. You then say: > Yet, these are (for some people) legit reasons to not join BOINC/GRC after consideration of all aspects – or less motivation to continue to contribute, thus moving on to mine other coins instead. And I would again reply that this goes for all POW and DPOR crypto. Your argument essentially says that users are entitled to payout, regardless of their actual contribution to the system, which is fundamentally the opposite of the GRC POR model. --- You then listed 4 ways to improve the Gridcoin ecosystem: > a) better rewards, especially for newbies This would encourage serious miners to set up many noobie accounts, and undermine the fair reward system. Noobie miners already get a one-off 100,000 DPOR weight bonus to stake their first block. > b) better project/task filters to find profitable projects faster There is a [fantastic website resource](http://gridcoin.us/) maintained actively by, among others, @cm-steem and @barton26 which when combined with the [Gridcoinstats](https://www.gridcoinstats.eu) website allows you to find the most profitable project at any point in time within 1 minute flat. Like all crypto, you just need to be willing to put in the time to understand the system. > c) better rewards for older systems This undermines all the attempts to add compute to the network, and would encourage everyone to go and buy up old, inefficient systems. That being said, the most cost-efficient FP64 cards are actually half a decade old. Food for thought? > d) better rewards for users with high electricity costs This is not only impossible to police, but again skews the rewards system. Does this mean if I have a solar set-up I should get paid far less for my BOINC contribution? You then mentioned: > I don’t think BOINC/GRC's main motivation should be mining GRC for profit and I also don’t think it would be healthy for the relationship long-term. But that is literally the entire purpose of GRC beyond its POS model. GRC exists solely to pay out holders 1.5% annual interest, and to reward BOINC computation. It has been incredibly healthy for the relationship - just have a look at the contribution stats for Team Gridcoin! Finally, you wrapped up with some things you would like to see added to incentivise new members to join: 1) **Better/more interactive project/task overview** Our current [Home Page](http://gridcoin.us/Guides/whitelist.htm) contains this information, with links to everything you asked for. Displaying it all on one page would be impossible to navigate. Further details are provided in your BOINC client, and on the individual project sites, depending on exactly what stats you want. 2) **More communication with scientists to help promote their projects** Scientists are busy. We work on VERY tight funding, to VERY tight schedules. Celebrities like 'Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, Brian Greene or Carl Sagan' make money by being science figureheads. They are not traditional scientists. Even so, all projects that I keep tabs on are very active in updating their users on developments, from new research outcomes to server issues, and even publications. Some projects even publish the names of teams or individual crunchers in their publications. 3) **Project roadmaps** There exists, on the project homepages, in great detail where appropriate. 4) **Project suggestion hub** There are many different places around the web to access the total list of all BOINC projects, and anyone with more than 100,000 GRC is able to initiate a vote to have one added or removed from the whitelist. This has happened frequently in the past. In fact, you can review all past votes! 5) **Additional prestige reward systems** All projects I have crunched for have this already in the form of badges. Many BOINC users chase these badges to add to their collection, and ammass huge amounts of them to add to their forum signatures. This therefore also already exists. --- I really like people adding value in the form of suggestions to the community, but I think it greatly hurts the community when articles like this are posted. It gives uninformed readers a false impression that many of the things that are already present in the community are missing - but they are not. The least we can do for the volunteers that implemented these tools is recognise their work and dedication to their projects.
author | dutch |
---|---|
permlink | re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t104440223z |
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Thank you for your reply. I'll split up my responses for less confusion. I would like to start with the suggestions a) - d) since there seems to be a massive confusion about them. I will not edit the main article, otherwise it will end in chaos, so I'll try to solve this in the comment section. These are very hypothetical suggestions which I'm using to explain the basic drawback of a profit-oriented approach to attract more miners by making mining more lucrative. Maybe I worded it really poorly, but I actually did say that these are not viable options because they would result in short-term incentive to jump on the crypto hype train with no real long-term value for GRC itself. Not to mention other drawbacks like you mentioned. It is not my intention to suggest a) - d) as realistic options. It seems I did not make that clear enough in the article, and thus I repeat myself again: they are to be considered as **case examples** to illustrate why suggestions like 1) - 5) are more healthy compared to a classic market strategy to attract new miners on the hunt for short-term profits.
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t121915997z |
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No worries, and thank you for yours. I am sure you have great intentions, it just feels very counterproductive for people new to the scene to be misinformed about what does and does not exist in the GRC community and network. You titled your article 'how the user experience could be improved', but now say your suggestions in a) to d) are not realistic options. I don't agree with them, and suggestions 1-5 are largely implemented as I explained above. So, in light of that, I fail to see the point of the article. That could just be me though...
author | dutch |
---|---|
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"You say that there is a requirement to have high end hardware, and that this will drive new potential recruits away from the scene." In my introduction I mentioned that the beauty of BOINC is that all systems can contribute. **Yet**, there is a **semi**-requirement **often *perceived* as essential** for efficient mining. If you take a look at /r/gridcoin as well as other crypto subs you will notice that GRC has managed to attract a few new miners/investors - but you might also have noticed that some people suggest to only mine GRC if people really want to contribute to science. If they want to make actual profit, it is suggested to use resources to mine other coins instead. The reason for this is, that *some* potential GRC miners interpret the facts wrong and/or are not told all the facts. Especially the FP64 requirement is something that supports this narrative even though we know there are no real minimum hardware requirements for BOINC/GRC. This is what these conversations look like: Q: "I have GPU x. Is this any good to mine GRC?" A: "If you like science, go for it, but if you want to make real profit, this coin is a lot better." My personal experiences with this are anecdotal, but when I started with BOINC/GRC a few weeks ago I also shared this with a lot of nerd friends who usually are willing to test out new things. Even though there is information that there are no minimum requirements, people assume there are some sort of hardware requirements for efficient GRC mining based on advice given mainly on non-GRC channels. Another point I did not include at all is the requirement to have a minimum balance of roughly 1k GRC in order to stake and receive rewards. People see this as another obstacle that prevents them from making profit with GRC. Even though other coins might have similar restrictions, the fact that mining them is more lucrative overall is a good reason to mine those instead. Maybe I'm mistaken about this, but it does look like a major issue to me.
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t124028587z |
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> If you take a look at /r/gridcoin as well as other crypto subs you will notice that GRC has managed to attract a few new miners/investors - but you might also have noticed that some people suggest to only mine GRC if people really want to contribute to science. If they want to make actual profit, it is suggested to use resources to mine other coins instead. What do you see the chances being of GRC being the #1 most profitable coin to mine? For that to even be a remote possibility, we need to have droves of people mining it for science first. The increased competition and rising power cost per coin mined will provide a higher price floor. > Q: "I have GPU x. Is this any good to mine GRC?" > A: "If you like science, go for it, but if you want to make real profit, this coin is a lot better." This is just honesty from the community. It is true. You said yourself the focus should not be on profit, so why should we not openly tell new members that this is not the most profitable coin? I would 100000 times rather have someone mine with clear, accurate expectations than have them leave pissed because they did not make much. > people assume there are some sort of hardware requirements for efficient GRC mining based on advice given mainly on non-GRC channels Where? I personally wrote project selection posts for generic hardware and never came across this. The perception as I have seen it is better hardware = more rewards, which is correct. > Another point I did not include at all is the requirement to have a minimum balance of roughly 1k GRC in order to stake and receive rewards. No! Damn it please don't propagate these myths. There are two ways to mine: - In pool mining, setup is very fast and you need no GRC to start at all. - When solo mining, you need 1 GRC to send a beacon which registers your CPID in the Neural Network. After this, holding more GRC just increases your POS rewards and thus your DPOR - you will stake more often. You need to stake once every six months at minimum to not lose POR rewards. Mag increases your DPOR too. There is no 'minimum requirement' to get started with GRC.
author | dutch |
---|---|
permlink | re-maanzecorian-re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170712t020213775z |
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"Any coin that requires work, whether POW or DPOR will be affected by power prices and GPU availability. **It is not the job of the network to subsidise based on this differentiating feature.**" That is not what I'm asking, nor do I suggest this anywhere. Remember: a) - d) are examples, which I later describe as "how **not** to do it". I even explain why. "Your argument essentially says that users are entitled to payout, regardless of their actual contribution to the system." No, that is not what I'm saying at all.
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t124820926z |
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... Then why make a post on 'how the user experience could be improved' if you now say that all the examples given were ways not to do it....? So you are saying that, yes, you did make that argument, but then later described that is a bad suggestion? I don't get it.
author | dutch |
---|---|
permlink | re-maanzecorian-re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170712t015531608z |
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>I don’t think BOINC/GRC's main motivation should be mining GRC for profit and I also don’t think it would be healthy for the relationship long-term. "But that is literally the entire purpose of GRC beyond its POS model. GRC exists solely to pay out holders 1.5% annual interest, and to reward BOINC computation." You are taking this out of context. The first part of this article is a rough analysis of *some* of the reasons I consider roadblocks when it comes to motivate non-/semi-altruistic people to become GRC miners. The concerns and problems I see are to be seen in context with a certain potential group of future users. If we use marketing strategies that - additionally to "support science" - focus to much on the mining aspect of GRC from a "profit only" point of view, it is simply short-sighted imho. Profit-oriented miners sure will contribute - but they also will leave as soon as the next hype coin makes better promises. Just take a look at the 900+ coins currently available. All of them had this one, often transitory phase, thanks to a "profit only" mentality. If we shift our focus towards such strategies (as has been suggested during the past weeks) I don't really think that will be helpful. Instead - while staying true to what GRC is today - I would recommend marketing strategies that do not convince people because of possible profits, but because of other values that are not related to greed.
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t130742274z |
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But that is already the case... We do already push the science angle over the profit angle - it is GRC's point of difference... We have not been trying to shift the coin to a profit mentality at all... I don't know where you have been getting that idea, as keeping science the main focus is both popular opinion and the primary active marketing angle. Are you aware of the current marketing campaign? Have you looked at the images and slogans?
author | dutch |
---|---|
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>Our current Home Page contains this information, with links to everything you asked for. Displaying it all on one page would be impossible to navigate. Further details are provided in your BOINC client, and on the individual project sites, depending on exactly what stats you want. I don't suggest to have one single page displaying all available information. I suggest to have a **wiki** (like wikipedia). The current home page does not contain all the information, just very basic info. It requires people to visit other pages, the information is spread everywhere which makes it very tedious. Having all the information in one place would be beneficial in many ways. > Scientists are busy. We work on VERY tight funding, to VERY tight schedules. Celebrities like 'Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, Brian Greene or Carl Sagan' make money by being science figureheads. They are not traditional scientists. Even so, all projects that I keep tabs on are very active in updating their users on developments, from new research outcomes to server issues, and even publications. Some projects even publish the names of teams or individual crunchers in their publications. This is not about scientists doing more promotional work - it is about the GRC community to help them with promotional work. We support them with mining - why not support them with PR as well? Wouldn't you like to have someone who constantly checks your project's site, gathers all news and promotes your project *for you*, posting on various subreddits and social media so people develop an interest and maybe start mining GRC because someone was able to promot *your* scientific work *for free* (or a small GRC bounty provided by whales)? >There exists, on the project homepages, in great detail where appropriate. I'm aware of that (which I already wrote in the main article as well) But again, it would be beneficial to have all this information in one place. Why should people have to browse ten different project websites to get their information if they could just check out one wiki instead? >There are many different places around the web to access the total list of all BOINC projects, and anyone with more than 100,000 GRC is able to initiate a vote to have one added or removed from the whitelist. This has happened frequently in the past. In fact, you can review all past votes! You are missing the point here. The suggested "project suggestion hub" would be an additional feature to make it easier to gather information in order to make a decision before voting. How many pages of forum entries on several boards should people read to get the necessary insights? How many past poll results should they google, how many hours should they spend on reddit, IRC or slack, going through tons of comments in order to get the full picture? The more time it takes, the less people are inclined to participate. This is the same for real life elections. Why can't we try to provide a place that bundles all relevant information? > All projects I have crunched for have this already in the form of badges. Many BOINC users chase these badges to add to their collection, and ammass huge amounts of them to add to their forum signatures. This therefore also already exists. Fair enough. In that case I won't bother suggesting anymore ideas on this point since it seems there already is a perfect system in place.
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t134335168z |
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> The current home page does not contain all the information, just very basic info. You should go browse the home page, talk to the authors, and talk to the community about the website. The home page has TMI, if anything - a LONG shot from very basic info. > It requires people to visit other pages, the information is spread everywhere which makes it very tedious. Having all the information in one place would be beneficial in many ways. This is how a webpage works though. Do you envision collecting all the information on everything to do with GRC on one page? How would we navigate it? We could split it up into sections, and then we have the same thing we have now. Regarding promotional work, I would 100% not want the community writing about my work. I see no benefit in someone copying the content from my hypothetical project feed and trying to run social media for it... The Gridcoin Twitter does a good enough job as it is for overall news, and if people want project news they go to the project page. > You are missing the point here. The suggested "project suggestion hub" would be an additional feature to make it easier to gather information in order to make a decision before voting. How many pages of forum entries on several boards should people read to get the necessary insights? How many past poll results should they google, how many hours should they spend on reddit, IRC or slack, going through tons of comments in order to get the full picture? The more time it takes, the less people are inclined to participate. This is the same for real life elections. Why can't we try to provide a place that bundles all relevant information? They should spend time to do exactly all of that! People should be expected to make an informed, educated decision on projects by doing their research. If that weeds out 99% of suggesters, great! It means that the inclusion polls posed will be quality selections. Bundling everything is both impossible to keep up to date, and makes it easy for false information to be spread on a project. Decentralised, remember?
author | dutch |
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jringo | 0 | 5,081,968,888 | 100% |
Thanks for this reply, it's good to have you around to weigh in on posts like this
author | mzungu |
---|---|
permlink | re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t151624581z |
category | gridcoin |
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Impressive answer. This needs more votes than the actual topic.
author | trumpman |
---|---|
permlink | re-dutch-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t105538807z |
category | gridcoin |
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Good thoughts and well laid out, thank you for contributing! "Gameifying" Gridcoin / BOINC isn't a bad idea, just look at the @steemitboard here. It works, we know it's a psychological crutch, and we still don't care, nothing wrong with that. I'm one of those jokers that run some fairly old systems to BOINC, and all I can tell myself, despite their inefficiency is, "At least they are not in a landfill". Give them something to spend GRC on seems an obvious choice for pulling in and having crunchers optimize. Lot's of things to think on, but, I'm gonna think about that while I close my eyes.... NVM, too bloody hot here to sleep, AC died today. GUI improvements - a little switch to go from investor / miner might be beneficial.
author | erelas |
---|---|
permlink | re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t075552072z |
category | gridcoin |
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Hi there :) I think it's a good choice to use old systems for BOINC/GRC instead of throwing them away if they are still functioning properly. In general, we should try to use products as long as possible to get the most out of their life-cycle. However, energy consumption is something to think about imho - as long as most power plants still rely on non-renewable energy. The motivation here is not to brand miners with old systems, it's more about creating awareness regarding the source of resources used in the computations. Gridcoin could easily become a "green coin" if we can find viable solutions. Many coins out there are simply "burning energy" with no real application. GRC is already one step ahead thanks to the symbiosis with BOINC. So it wouldn't just be great for marketing, it would also have a real world benefit in different areas. One first step could be to have serious discussions about solar powered systems, guides to help interested users set up the needed infrastructure, etc. This would turn old systems into "green" systems - at least in theory. I think it's worth discussing and do some calculations. Since you have old systems running, it would be interesting to see how they perform, how much power they consume, etc. - basically a full efficiency analysis and maybe there are way to tweak these systems further? It would be interesting to find out. And if it turns out there is nothing we can do to further optimize older systems, at least we have lots of data for other people to compare their systems with. What I'm currently looking for is a way to determine which CPU/GPU is the most economical, yet most powerful out there. This could help build "greener" systems. There will be an article on this in a few weeks as well, so our input would especially welcome :) Regarding your switch idea: awesome! If you haven't submitted it yet, I'll mention it in slack for sure!
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | re-erelas-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t082653340z |
category | gridcoin |
json_metadata | {"tags":["gridcoin"],"app":"steemit/0.1"} |
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mining mining mining ??? Gridcoin is for me (my opinion) not mininig , Gridcoin is reward for running Boinc ( we are the small crazy Scientist) Gridcoin is -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientist The start with gridcoin is easy if you (Kolega) follow just few steps : 1. email address 2. boinc client 3. project from the "whitelist" and team gridcoin 4. wallet installation yes you need some skills , but you run you PC only with the frontpage from google ? 5. " sync da wallet, change you life " if you have time just let you wallet open for some days :-) if not use "snapshot" 6. magic beacon 7. magic unlock for staking only 8. if you need help join freenode irc #gridcoin-help 24/7 working hours is like "better call saul" good luck and good night
author | metoo |
---|---|
permlink | re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170713t113105822z |
category | gridcoin |
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Simple and straight forward guide you have there. let me share an addition for the newbie https://steemit.com/gridcoin/@delordsquest/mining-cryptocurrencies-don-t-repeat-my-mistakes-gridcoin
author | delordsquest |
---|---|
permlink | re-metoo-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170713t121743943z |
category | gridcoin |
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forgot point 5b : some coins in the wallet . look faucet or ask us :-)
author | metoo |
---|---|
permlink | re-metoo-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170713t171444296z |
category | gridcoin |
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created | 2017-07-13 17:14:51 |
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i really believe in the potential of GRC, and price of it right now, i will hodl this coin until the end of the year
author | randell | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
permlink | re-maanzecorian-2017711t13408317z | ||||||
category | gridcoin | ||||||
json_metadata | {"tags":"gridcoin","app":"esteem/1.4.6","format":"markdown+html","community":"esteem"} | ||||||
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grider123 | 0 | 2,038,463,256 | 100% |
GRC has some great long-term potential. I hope we'll make the right choices within the next months to become more relevant within crypto.
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | re-randell-re-maanzecorian-2017711t13408317z-20170711t082931945z |
category | gridcoin |
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One of the main avenues Im using to try and get the non-altruistic / semi-altruistic into Gridcoin is the CPU mining angle. I dont know it for a fact but Im pretty sure GRC gives one of the best ROIs available for people for example who are mining Etherium and have a CPU sitting 95% idle on their rig.
author | scalextrix |
---|---|
permlink | re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t094552603z |
category | gridcoin |
json_metadata | {"tags":["gridcoin"],"app":"steemit/0.1"} |
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joshoeah | 0 | 1,004,011,927 | 100% |
I will back that statement. CPUs could, until the recent market freefall of most coins, be used to profitably mine GRC even in my area which has high power costs.
author | dutch |
---|---|
permlink | re-scalextrix-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t110027818z |
category | gridcoin |
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Congratulations @maanzecorian! You have completed some achievement on Steemit and have been rewarded with new badge(s) : [](http://steemitboard.com/@maanzecorian) Award for the number of upvotes received Click on any badge to view your own Board of Honor on SteemitBoard. For more information about SteemitBoard, click [here](https://steemit.com/@steemitboard) If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word `STOP` > By upvoting this notification, you can help all Steemit users. Learn how [here](https://steemit.com/steemitboard/@steemitboard/http-i-cubeupload-com-7ciqeo-png)!
author | steemitboard |
---|---|
permlink | steemitboard-notify-maanzecorian-20170711t134614000z |
category | gridcoin |
json_metadata | {"image":["https://steemitboard.com/img/notifications.png"]} |
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You have some good ideas going but some of your suggestions are well impossible. Take for example, "d) better rewards for users with high electricity costs."... How is that gonna happen? They are gonna mail a copy of their electricity bill? I really like the prestige idea. I think it can do wonders :)
author | trumpman |
---|---|
permlink | re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t061525735z |
category | gridcoin |
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maanzecorian | 0 | 1,163,895,938 | 100% | ||
joshoeah | 0 | 1,027,226,076 | 100% |
Glad you like a few of my ideas :) The suggestions a) to d) are of hypothetical nature. I mentioned them in order to display a more typical approach how one could create additional incentive with a more currency-based approach. I don't think these are viable though, at least not in the near future - but it's not wrong to think about such options either. In the last part I focus on a less currency-based approach (1-5), something that I would prefer to see implemented, because it generates incentive based on actual interest for science and the BOINC/GRC collaboration - imho a long-term solution that is independent from the currency and hardly influenced by future crypto development, especially market crashes, etc.
author | maanzecorian |
---|---|
permlink | re-trumpman-re-maanzecorian-thoughts-on-grc-002-how-the-user-experience-could-be-improved-pt-i-20170711t075852687z |
category | gridcoin |
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