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Gaming the System by Voting on Promoted Posts by sean-king

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· @sean-king · (edited)
$33.76
Gaming the System by Voting on Promoted Posts
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<p><img src="https://www.steemimg.com/images/2016/08/31/image48c2f.jpg" width="2047" height="2698"/></p>
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<p>I'm sure I'm missing something, in which case the good Steemsters here won't hesitate to set me straight. &nbsp;But, it seems to me that the new post promotion function creates some interesting incentives, especially for whales and dolphins. &nbsp;Here's what I mean:</p>
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<p>Each of us have a limited number of highly effective upvotes (at or near max voting power). &nbsp;Someone motivated purely be economics would want to use those upvotes in a way that maximizes potential return, right? &nbsp;</p>
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<p>And people who choose to promote posts must burn Steem Based Dollars to do so, and burning those dollars benefits everyone in proportion to their stake in Steem, right? &nbsp;And, by definition, the more expensive it is to boost a post to the front page of the "promoted" section the more SBD that's required, right?</p>
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<h3>So wouldn't a person motivated purely by economics, and especially a whale who could influence other voters with his/her vote, choose to vote only or primarily on promoted posts (assuming the content there is decent)? &nbsp;Wouldn't this offer the whale better odds at a higher return? &nbsp;If the post does well (an it would if whales pile on), then the whale earns not only the curation reward but also benefits from the burnt SBD.</h3>
<p><br></p>
<h3>And, wouldn't a person motivated only by economics, especially a whale, want to encourage posters to pay larger and larger amounts to boost their post by especially rewarding those posts that "bid" the highest (burnt the most Steem) for the privilege of the whale's attenti0n? &nbsp;In other words, assuming that two posts are of similar quality, shouldn't whales favor the poster that paid the most? &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</h3>
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<p>And, if whales voted ONLY (or even just primarily) on promoted posts, everyone would quickly learn that the only way to make any money on Steemit is to pay to promote. &nbsp;&nbsp;And, since that's where all the money is being earned, and since whales are favoring the people who pay the most for their attention, the cost of promoting those posts to the front page would skyrocket, right? &nbsp;And more people paying higher amounts of SBD to promote their posts means more return to all Steem holders (in proportion to their stake, disproportionally benefiting whales), right? &nbsp;</p>
<p><br></p>
<h3>Given these incentives, why would a whale, or a dolphin for that matter, vote for anything BUT promoted posts, and why would he/she not favor those promoted posts that paid MOST for the priviledge? &nbsp;</h3>
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<p>Finally, if this were to happen, would people continue to post on Steemit even though they have little chance of earning money unless they pay to promote? &nbsp;I imagine that many would. &nbsp;At that point, Steem would truly be a lottery as much as anything, with the people paying the most (and still posting decent content) having the best chance of "winning big."</p>
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<p>Welcome to Vegas.</p>
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<p><img src="https://www.steemimg.com/images/2016/08/31/image23cf3.jpg" width="2731" height="1822"/>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<p>(Photos by me)</p>
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vote details (113)
@blueorgy · (edited)
Cosmopolitan Wrap Around suite ;) one of the best rooms in Vegas for the price.
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@darknet · (edited)
Meh, I hear your concerns, but let them have their promotable posts. I still believe that most of the good content will come from the 'minnows' among us who do not promote their posts.
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@sean-king ·
I didn't say I had "concerns".  I'm just simply noting that the incentives are very different than before, and ultimately people *will* act in the way that rewards them most.
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@dwinblood ·
I am hoping this promoted posts does not turn out to be a bad thing.   A place where only the steem powerful and financially wealthy can afford to dwell.   If that is where all of the votes end up gathering then that could pretty effectively kill the rest of the platform.

If that does happen I know my time on steemit would be greatly reprioritized.   Knowing me that'd be down sizing my time commitment to steemit, and at some point I'd likely just stop using it.

I'd hate to see this.

I do see some pros of the promoting.      There may be some big cons though as well... really big.
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@justtryme90 · (edited)
I've decided to not vote on promoted posts, unless the post was promoted by someone other than the author. As I think that "Promotion" should be a way that people can feature other peoples work... but maybe  I am being unreasonable with this line of thinking.
👍  ,
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@sean-king ·
Why?  Economically, that's the least rational thing you could do (assuming the post is otherwise worthy of an upvote).  Selfishly, you should *want* people to burn their SBD promoting posts, and the only way to encourage them to do that is to reward them with upvotes.
👍  ,
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@justtryme90 ·
$0.80
Thats.. a good point that I had not considered.
👍  
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@karenb54 ·
I promoted My latest post just because i wanted to see how it worked now I know it doesnt work very well, That's what I get for being nosey
👍  ,
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@kaylinart ·
I agree, I wonder how many people check it. I personally do. But I am not sure if my promoted posts have actually done better as result.
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@karenb54 ·
I won't be doing it again, I had to search the promoted page for my post, It was si far down no one would go that far to read a post  so it was a waste of time and money for me,  You have to be able to afford a lot to get your post  at the top so the well off win again
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@kaylinart ·
$0.86
Wow nice photos! I Like your logic on this one, But I feel like most whales won't do that. They have the biggest stake on the platform. Doing something like that would hurt the platform.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@sean-king ·
I agree that they won't do something that they believe hurts the platform, but I'm not sure this does.  It may even benefit it.
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@ntomaino ·
How would whales only upvoting promoted posts benefit the platform? 

If you have to pay to get rewarded, this changes the narrative of anyone that's talented being able to create content and earn. And without that, I think the quality of the content degrades and the platform loses its value.
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@knircky ·
Vegas!!!!!!!!
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@knircky ·
I think the main and key driver is still quality of content. Content is king. If you post good content it will attract votes, hence anyone should vote on that early because that's what's profitable (and also feels right ).

That said it will make it easier for people to notice you when you promote. That I think is the key reason why whales and anyone should check out the promo page first when looking to vote on things. 

Unless your post goes viral right away, it disappears very very quickly. If you have followers u might still be in luck. 

But if you have a decent post and no name then it's likely worth a shot to promote.

Yesterday I paid 50-60 for two post that I thought could be sticky. One was about photography and it only earned $2. The other made me $80 and the money and votes grew continuously over the 24h. I would have only made a few $ without the promotion. So this is valuable both for me and the curators.  Of course there is cost to this as well.

I think the fact that money is being burned, is not enough of a factor to actually change behavior.
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@kyriacos ·
@sean-king

excellent post. flawless
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@sean-king ·
Thank you.
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@nebcat ·
These are great questions! I wouldn't know the answer until I see some actual change within the system. So far, I would assume it would be an opportunity to redo, low voted posts, and then promote them to give old post another try. It's a good way to feed the platform, making it stronger. IMHO
👍  
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vote details (1)
@serejandmyself ·
As someone pointed out to me, I think promoting should only be used by others to promote your post. Using promotion to do to your own post, defeats the whole subject of this platform...
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@sean-king ·
Can you explain why you feel that way?  I'm not sure I agree but I may be missing something.
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@serejandmyself ·
Yes. 
The reason i am saying this is the following:

Take the main reasons why steem was created. One of them is certainly without an argument, to find new talent. Also to pay to that new talent or rather to reward that talent in an apporpiate manner.

Another reason is to creaty a decentralized community, which when we start to see samrt contracts adding to the platform, will grow and prosper even more. In that decentralized communtiy we wish to be as fully aware of whats going on around us. And to fully change what the centalized world brings.

Now when the promoting section was introduced, i noticed that people starting to boost their own post.... Think about it. You are paying to yourself to be seen - what are we different from the centralized marketing media world, if we do it?

Where will a new author take SD from. lets say he is an amazing author, who write novels, he just cam here. Our point as a society is to notice him. One of those "promotions" is for US (not him) to boost his article up for others to be seen.

That way, he gets the reward he deserves and the article gets the attention. Also we defeat the point of self advertising.

Adding to your point of how to burn SD =)
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@shadowspub ·
interesting point but you may want to consider that in order for others to see and want to promote, it usually takes having a following. For smaller members trying to build that following, spending a few dollars to promote a post of theirs could be the boost they need to build. I think the arguments for and against promoting your own post cuts two ways.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@shenanigator · (edited)
$0.78
How funny, my girlfriend and I just got back from Vegas yesterday and had that same view at Cosmopolitan.
👍  
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@sigmajin ·
$0.03
Cosmo, huh?  good taste
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tee-em ·
Good point, Sean. The burning of steem dollars via promotion helps keep the STEEM DOLLAR inflation under control and those that promote their posts with cash are putting something at stake, showing they believe in their content. After checking my follower feed, I check promoted posts before the third section of new and trending posts.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@thecryptofiend ·
Another fantastic post (they always are).  I think the reason whales wouldn't do this is contained in your post.  They don't want people to think they are in it solely for the money.  

People have been crying foul about the inequality and I think in some ways the whales will be damned whatever they do.

If they (particularly the large whales) started doing this the perception of it could be quite negative.  

On the other hand if they actively avoid the promotion page due to this then that will be a disincentive for people to use it which also would not look good.

It is a tricky situation for sure.  I think your "Vegas" analogy is apt although I think for the vast majority of people it has been like this from the beginning.  It will be interesting to see how this evolves.
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@timcliff ·
Even though the whales often work in similar ways, they still are individuals 😀 A few whales doing this wouldn't be enough to drastically shift things too far in this direction, and I don't expect them to do any type of mass collusion to make it happen. Interesting thought though 🐳
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@trogdor ·
There is another incentive at play as well. As you describe, if this behaviour became the norm, it means a risk of losing users and harming public perceptions of the platform (if only promoted posts have value). This could ultimately result in a greater loss to a whale's investment (through falling Steem values) than could be gained as you say by voting exclusively for promoted posts. Some will probably see it as you do, and vote exclusively for promoted posts, but I expect (and hope even) that the majority will not.
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@dwinblood ·
If the majority of the votes go to promoted posts it will likely do a lot of damage to the platform.   How is that different from mainstream media ruled by the people with the most money?   It may not have censorship, but if you have to dig through a bargain bin to try to find a post.   That could be really bad.

Too early to say.
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