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Why I'm Returning to the King James Bible - Part 2 by stan

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· @stan ·
$4.39
Why I'm Returning to the King James Bible - Part 2
#### _Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say...?"_

<center>![enter image description here](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110621062022/disney/images/9/91/Junglebook2-disneyscreencaps.com-2911.jpg)</center>

**In [Part 1](https://steemit.com/christianity/@stan/why-i-m-returning-to-the-king-james-bible-part-1), I examined claims that modern Bibles are being changed** to support a New World Order (NWO) agenda.  I extracted the most compelling examples from a referenced documentary video and posted some of the changes I had verified.  Then I analyzed what the _worst case_ doctrinal impact might be for each change.  I decided to go back to the King James Version (KJV) as a result.

**In Part 2, I examine the alternative _best case_ scenario** giving those nefarious revisionists the benefit of the doubt. What exactly are the competing methodologies and documents used to get to today's leading Bible versions?  Are they fair and reasonable?  Do they really impact doctrine?  To my surprise, the body of reconstructed Greek texts are all in solid agreement at the doctrinal level.  But I'm still keeping my King James...

<center>**It is insanely great that those two very different methodologies converge** 
**to exactly one mutually reinforcing pair of doctrinally compatible reference texts.**</center>

That is, you can switch between the two major schools of Greek Bible reconstruction (Alexandrian Critical Text vs. Byzantine Majority Text) without losing support for the key precepts of Biblical Christianity.  That doesn't mean that the various sects of Christianity won't continue to disagree on what the Greek reference texts _actually mean_.   It just suggests that we can reasonably continue our arguments _in English_ using any of the currently most popular versions (KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV or NLT) that have been derived from them.  This agreement does not extend as much to the Latin Vulgate used by the Roman church, nor does it imply that we will agree on any extra-Biblical doctrines that have crept into the teachings of various denominations.  

**...But it is a convenient place to take a stand.**

<center>![enter image description here](https://i.gyazo.com/1f862dd5b270a33da2032281a6289b68.png)</center>

#### Brief overview of the leading original Greek reconstruction methodologies.

Without getting too technical, let me quickly summarize how the original Greek New Testament has been reconstructed according to the leading schools of thought.  

Interest in Greek Bible texts surged in the 1500s when early Protestant reformers began to suspect that the Popes were "embellishing" what the Scriptures said for various reasons (mostly wealth and power) and keeping the Scriptures locked up in the dead language of Latin where nobody could check them on it.  They sought out an independent verification by going back to the original Greek, preferably from sources outside the Vatican.  

In 1516, a brilliant linguist named Arasmus collected all the Greek manuscripts he could find (about six) and used them to produce a composite reference text called the _Textus Receptus_ (Received Text) which compared that composite Greek to the official Latin Vulgate text from the Roman Church.  Martin Luther used this to produce a German Translation and William Tyndale did the same for English.  This launched a process of increasingly precise translations that culminated 100 years later in the King James Bible.  

<center>![enter image description here](https://i.gyazo.com/1d93cab26ede45635cc6eb543e3747c9.png)</center>

Arasmus (mostly) used a methodology that became known as Majority Text analysis which essentially allowed each Greek manuscript to vote, word by word, on what went into the resulting _Textus Receptus_.  Since that time, work has continued adding more and more manuscripts to the mix, resulting in an updated version of _Textus Receptus_ called simply the Majority Text.  There are 1838 minor differences between Textus Receptus and Majority Text - but they are mostly spelling and word order differences - nothing of doctrinal importance.  For this reason and to preserve historical tradition, no popular translation actually uses the Majority Text and today's King James Version and the modern english New King James Version (NKJV) both continue to use the Textus Receptus as their basis.

The _Textus Receptus_ and Majority Text tend to favor Greek texts that came out of Turkey when Christians fled ahead of the Muslim armies in the 1400's.  Hence, these are often referred to as the Byzantine Majority Text reference Greek. 

<center>![enter image description here](https://i.gyazo.com/9f0704fcfd306242a82e36aa48d83fd9.png)</center>

But there is another source of Greek manuscripts that generally come from the dry climate south of the Mediterranean which have generally been preserved longer.  These "Alexandrian" texts are preferred by another school of thought called Alexandrian Critical Text Method.  Rather than letting the Alexandrian manuscripts "vote" on every work, scholars prefer to manually analyze and debate each word based on additional factors including "external evidence" (age, care, provenance, affiliation, and quotes from other documents and languages) and "internal evidence" ("shorter, less-polished readings are better", "author's writing style", etc.)  Most popular modern Bible versions (NIV, NLT, ESV, NWT, et. al) use the Alexandrian Critical Text as a reference.  

Meanwhile, the Vatican continues to stick with its Latin Vulgate which Jerome translated from his Greek resources circa 400 AD. This is the reference Latin on which the modern Douay-Rheims translation is based.  

The family tree that leads to today's leading versions is shown below.

<center>![enter image description here](https://i.gyazo.com/a4487b9ba3e72ce2a03f5990a585d80a.png)</center>

One other difference between the schools of thought is that English Translations derived from the Byzantine Majority Text school (KJV, NKJV) are word for word "direct translations" where as those from the Alexandrian Critical School (NIV, NLT, ESV) are phrase by phrase or sentence by sentence "dynamic equivalents".  

There are 6577 trivial differences (mostly spelling, word order, etc.) between these two Greek Reference Texts.  The biggest difference is the tendency of the Critical Text to leave out an occasional verse or phrase on the theory that scribes were more likely to add than subtract when making copies.

Back in [Part 1](https://steemit.com/christianity/@stan/why-i-m-returning-to-the-king-james-bible-part-1) I enumerated and commented on the most worrisome of these differences.   My many comments in that post discussion reflect my subsequent thoughts about it - stimulated by the helpful comments from others that I received there.  

#### Resulting Conclusions.

Based on what I have learned from the discussion in Part 1 and my subsequent deeper study, I offer the following _personal opinions_ for your consideration:

1.  I still don't like the revisionist trend.  It can lead to mischief (inserting translator preferences).
2.  The revisions _so far_ don't affect doctrine and amount to a tiny fraction of a percent of the overall text.  Thus the current status of the most popular translations I looked at is tolerable and perhaps even better if the translators have really been faithful.
3.  As an engineer, I prefer the Critical Text _method_ better the Majority Text method because it weighs more factors in the balance and avoids the potential of having the tyranny of the majority override common sense.  
4.  I don't generally trust academic "scholars" to apply the Critical Text method without inserting their own secular or parochial agendas.  There are, no doubt, honest scholars among them, _but I can't tell which is which_ and I never trust the majority opinion on anything.
5.  The King James Version translators, of course, had their own _open_ agenda too.  But it is the same as mine.  _Sola Scriptura._  They were looking to find the truth once they were convinced they couldn't trust the recklessly presumptive inventions of the popes. Subsequently derived Protestant doctrine followed the _Textus Receptus,_ not the other way around.
6.  As time progresses, I expect more and more "corrections" that implement hidden agendas that will begin to affect the original doctrine.
7.  Therefore, it is better to live with the relatively harmless errors in the King James Version than to encourage the average student to wander off into the most popular paraphrased _Text du Jour._
8.  Serious students _willing to put in the time_ can benefit from discussing the fine points brought out by scholarly debate.

**Bottom Line** It is _currently_ fairly safe for people of faith who aren't very curious can simply accept the mainstream Bibles I studied at face value. Those of us cursed with the need for details _can find them and be satisfied!_ Among the authors I consulted, several agreed that for nearly 200 years there has been almost complete unanimity among those diverse schools of thought that _none of those cosmetic differences between the Greek texts affects doctrine_  (i.e. the definition of Biblical Christianity).  The Latin Vulgate, not so much.

#### We are still not out of the woods

What does effect doctrine is what people _do_ with those reference Greek texts after the fact.  Different people will read and emphasize different parts while ignoring other parts to arrive at their own personal preferences and can thereby wander off arbitrarily far from the truth.  Or they will blatantly claim that their leaders have the authority to alter the teachings of people who knew Jesus.  Many sects, having wandered away to some such non-negotiable position, then go back and modify their Bibles to match their doctrine.  As soon as they do that they are permanently lost.

However, I am now fairly satisfied that, despite their cosmetic differences, the versions I examined (KJV, NKJV, NIV, NAS, ESV) are _currently_ safely inside the bounds of a common doctrine which can be called "Biblical Christianity".  Personally, I stick with KJV **_because it is not subject to further second guessing_** that could lead outside the common reference definition due to politically correct secular pressures in the future.

Nevertheless, I must repeat:

<center>**It is very gratifying to see that these two very different methodologies converge** 
**to exactly one mutually reinforcing pair of doctrinally compatible reference texts.**</center>

This is good, because now we can focus on debating in forums like this whether a particular issue is faithful to these unanimous reference texts.  At this point I am able to participate with results from my own studies and learn from the studies of others. Now I can point to several English versions which are _authoritative enough_ to construct a Scripture based debate upon.  

Such debates are fine and healthy and can lead to a deeper understanding for all concerned.  

#### Reference Links

[What about the Majority Text?](http://www.bible-researcher.com/majority.html)
[Majority Text and Original Text, Are They Identical?](https://bible.org/article/majority-text-and-original-text-are-they-identical)
[English Bible History and Timeline](http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/)
[List of Major Textual Variants in the New Testament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament)
[Interview with Daniel B. Wallace on the New Testament Manuscripts](https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/justintaylor/2012/03/21/an-interview-with-daniel-b-wallace-on-the-new-testament-manuscripts/)
[Some Second Thoughts on the Majority Text](https://bible.org/article/some-second-thoughts-majority-text)
[25,000 New Testament Transcripts?  Big Deal.](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/11/25000-new-testament-manuscripts-big-deal/)
[Bible Version Comparison Chart](http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html)
[Westcott & Hort vs. Textus Receptus: Which is Superior?](http://www.bible-researcher.com/kutilek1.html)
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vote details (72)
@anotherjoe ·
Good info.
Quick correction - ESV is not dynamic equivalent. It is word for word as much as the NAS, NKJV or KJV.
NIV is dynamic equivalent. NLT is a paraphrase written to help children learn and was never meant to be adopted as a translation. But it sells.
There is an interesting angle to this discussion that many miss as well, having to do with the doctrinal position of translators. The NASB was translated by mostly dispensationalists. The ESV translators, led by Packer, were largely covenantalists. When one realizes this, the nuances can be picked up in certain passages.
The political motivations King James are interesting as well, if one is willing to dig deeply enough. The Geneva Bible wasn't inferior in its accuracy, but there were some interesting "adaptations" embraced by the "authorized" translators.
As you noted, there aren't really any doctrinal issues with these translations. While the Johannine comma is certainly debatable (I think history makes it clear that it was added during the Reformation), the doctrine of the Trinity hardly needs it. As far as I know, that's the only one that might even be on the table as a concern.
Enjoy your studies. They're certainly worthwhile and enriching.
👍  ,
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@gduran ·
I do have a question, why are we referring to Greek and Latin texts, shouldn't the originals have been in Hebrew or Aramaic, making any other text just a translation and subject to mistakes? I am no student of the bible I am just asking because I have been led to believe the originals were written in Palestine, were the popular languages were not Greek or Latin.
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vote details (1)
@bimmerhead ·
Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_New_Testament
"Koine Greek, the common language of the  Eastern Mediterranean[3][4][5][6] from the Conquests of Alexander the Great (335–323 BC) until the evolution of Byzantine Greek (c. 600)."

and

"The New Testament Gospels and Epistles were only part of a Hellenistic Jewish culture in the Roman Empire, where Alexandria had a larger Jewish population than Jerusalem, and Greek was spoken by more Jews than Hebrew."
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@gduran ·
OK, you say Greek was the official language, fine, but what language did Jesus and his followers speak? So all that I said from the start regardless if you say it was Greek or Latin what we have in the bible are translations from the original Hebrew or Aramaic, and in translations something is always lost or added.
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@brains ·
Yes.  Hebrew was the original - Aramaic is very close to it.   One popular "manner of speech" seen throughout the new testament reads,  'and he spoke to them, saying..."  which is a Hebrew structure. Tons of evidence is seen when Jesus spoke to Paul after knocking him to the ground blind "in Hebrew."

Good point.  We should concentrate on actually completing a pass of the entire bible before we start arguing foreign languages and pet verses.    When read, the new testament is interpreted perfectly by the old testament as your right hand, by design, folds into your left.
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vote details (2)
@stan ·
$0.04
Old Testament was written in Hebrew/Aramaic
New Testament was all written in Greek
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@gduran ·
Yes, but why should that be? The people who knew about this weren't Greeks, and as far as I know Greek wasn't the common language in Palestine. It should have been written in Hebrew or Aramaic, if it is in Greek it is just what somebody wrote about what he heard.
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@sean-king ·
$0.05
Not exactly.  Whenever Paul quoted the Old Testament, he quoted from Greek (mis)translations of it.  

Furthermore, attribution of “Matthew” to Jesus' disciple of the same name is based *solely* on the testimony of Papias, who tells if via Eusebius' *Church History* that:

>Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue, and each one interpreted them to to the best of his ability. 

So, the earliest versions of Matthew (at least) were in fact written in Hebrew, not Greek.
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vote details (1)
@luzerspoon ·
What do you think of James White's critique of the King James and the newer versions? 

Also, considering your propensities for specificity, wouldn't it be best for you to learn the Biblical languages and read the compiled works? Im asking from ignorance, so please take that into account.
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@stan ·
Got a link?

If I were 40 years younger, I would study the languages.  As it is now, I use the tools I find in my hands.
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vote details (2)
@luzerspoon ·
There are a few debates, which are quite lengthy (an hour or two)

The best are here :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwe_nxeVwE0&t=61s

and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UenzoYbq49M

His book on the subject is the "King James Only Controversy"
https://www.amazon.com/King-James-Only-Controversy-Translations/dp/0764206052
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@luzerspoon ·
Also, after looking at my comment, it sounds a bit snarky, which was unintentional. I apologize for that.
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@sean-king · (edited)
$0.05
You repeatedly assure yourself, and your readers, that none of the differences "affect doctrine".  There are many problems with this contention.  Here are two:

First, the changes are far greater in number than you suggest.  For instance, the 1838 differences between the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text is derived only after scholars 'harmonized" the various conflicting manuscripts constituting each.  In other words, the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text are both syntheses of numerous other underlying texts which themselves conflict.  The same is true for the 6577 differences between the Majority Text and the Alexandrian Text.  

So, the differences are far greater in number than you suggest.

And, those differences are in fact substantive.  I went to great lengths in comments to your first post on this subject to point how numerous changes directly impacted doctrine--for instance, changes supporting the doctrine of the trinity, changes designed to contradict docetic interpretations, changes designed to counter adoptionist interpretations, etc.  

You disingenuously ignore all of these changes by contending (without offering any evidence) that these changes are irrelevant to the doctrine in question becasue it is supported in numerous other places throughout the New Testament.  But...this isn't so, at least not in many cases.  

I'll give one important example here:  When did Jesus become God's son?  This is a critical question of doctrine, and one upon which numerous writers in the New Testament disagreed (though those disagreements are often hidden thanks to the "changes" we are discussing and artful interpretations designed to minimize them).  

For example, the oldest surviving source texts of Luke 3:22 quotes God as saying from the clouds at Jesus’ baptism, “You are my son, today I have begotten you”, which is a paraphrase of Psalm 2:7. However, orthodox scribes, who opposed the adoptionist theory, were naturally uncomfortable with a quote from God suggesting that Jesus was not begotten of God until the day of his baptism, especially when such language was different from that offered in Mark’s and Matthew’s accounts of Jesus’ baptism, and directly contradicted John’s account of Jesus’ pre-existent divinity! 

So...which is it?  Was Jesus begotten of God before his birth, as suggested in the opening chapter of John, or only after his baptism, as taught by the authentic (pre-altered) Luke, or only upon his resurrection as taught by Paul? All of these inconsistencies were too much for Literalist orthodox editors to bear. To prevent the faithful from being “misled”, Literalist scribes and translators simply altered Luke 3:22 to read, “You are my beloved Son; in You I am well pleased”, an apparent illusion to Isaiah 42. This alteration had the three-fold benefit of preventing an adoptionist interpretation, harmonizing Luke’s account of God’s words with the accounts of Mark and Matthew, and linking Jesus to Isaiah and his prophecies. **Perhaps it is for these reasons that the altered version survives to this day in virtually every modern translation of the New Testament (though the authentic reading is sometimes footnoted), including the KJV that you prefer**.

To contend that this change regarding when Jesus was begotten "doesn't affect doctrine" is totally disingenuous.  It's totally relevant to doctrine!  And there's nowhere else in the New Testatment that you can point to that answers the question of when Jesus became divine conclusively.  The fact is that even the earliest Christians **disagreed** on this important point of doctrine, one that you consider to now be settled.  But...settled by what?  Nothing but tradition.  It's certainly not settled by the New Testament itself, as I have just shown.

The same is true with the doctrine of the Trinity.  Or docetism.  Or a great many others important doctrinal matters.  And I have shown how many of the differences you note were interjected into our Bibles precisely for the purpose of affecting doctrine.  And...they succeeded!

And lastly, even if you could point to something in the New Testament that conclusively settled the question of when Jesus became divine (before birth, at birth, upon baptism, or upon resurrection), we simply couldn't say with any reasonable certainty that the verses you rely upon weren't themselves changed.   For instance, we know from Papias (quoted by Eusebius) that the earliest versions of Matthew were written in Hebrew, not Greek (see my previous comment to this post for more on this).  And we know that the earliest versions of Mark contained only the "sayings of the Lord" (much like the gospel of Thomas), though **not** an orderly biography.  Here's what Papias tells us on this point:

>This is what the elder used to say, “when Mark was the interpreter of Peter he wrote down accurately everything that he recalled of the Lord's words and deeds—but not in order. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied him; but later, as I indicated, he accompanied Peter, who used to adapt his teachings for the needs at hand, not arranging, as it were, an orderly composition of the Lord's sayings. And so Mark did nothing wrong by writing some of the matters as he remembered them. For he was intent on just one purpose: not to leave out anything that he heard or to include any falsehood among them. 

And yet the earliest Greek manuscripts of Matthew that still exist are all written in Greek, not Hebrew.  And the earliest existing manuscripts of Mark most definitely  chronicle Jesus' life and teachings "in order."  The earliest Greek manuscripts of Mark are quite diligent at providing a very specific chronological account of Jesus deeds and sayings. There is nothing disorderly about it. Consider, for instance, 2:1, 2:23, 4:35, 6:2, 6:45, 6:53, 9:2, 9:30, etc. where our version of Mark goes out of its way to note the progress of time, order of happenings, and chronological changes of venue.  

In short, we have no reason to believe that **any** part of the New Testaments that we have today are remotely pure content and teaching. Your entire religious worldview is therefore built upon sand.  There's no there there.  You can believe it if you want (it's a free county), but just don't try to pretend that there's anything particularly rational about your beliefs, or that your religious beliefs are superior to others because your's are somehow more reasoned.  They're not.
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@stan ·
All I can tell you is what my recent dive into the subject area revealed.
* Individual transcripts have differences.
* Majority Text and Critical Text methods are very different ways to resolve those differences - yet they led to nearly identical conclusions.
* I looked at a fairly exhaustive list of differences between KJV, NKJV (Majority Text method) and three other most popular translations (Critical Text method) **and published in Part 1 of this post some of the worst cases I found and why I worried that they appeared to be removing doctrinal underpinnings.**
* However, in each case there were plenty of other verses elsewhere in the Bible that continued to underpin each point without depending on those which had been removed by the Critical Text method.
* Champions of both methods agree that their disagreements do not affect critical doctrine.
* What convinced me is the overwhelming majority of text that the two groups DON'T argue about.  

My final conclusion was, "Is that all there is?" to the controversy.

Now, there are plenty of places in the Bible where theologists will continue to argue about what to make of all relevant verses on a topic.  That's different than arguing about whether the verses themselves are correct.

I place the discussion of when Jesus became divine (before birth, at birth, upon baptism, or upon resurrection) into that category much like arguments about when the rapture will occur.   This is not saying that the right answer can't be derived from Scripture (He is God Himself - the Alpha and the Omega - there was never a time that He was not divine), only that people will argue about it based on their emphasis and (mis)understanding of what is being said in each relevant verse.

But I continue to be amazed at how well all the scholars agree on what the original text says.  Far, far more than is needed to establish the core principles of Christianity beyond reasonable doubt.
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@sean-king · (edited)
$0.05
Whether Jesus was human or divine (or both) and, if the latter, when he became so...these are not "core principles of Christianity"?  Really?  I doubt I can find very many Christians who would agree with you on that.  The orthodox editors of the Bible who changed the wording of Luke 3:22 certainty didn't agree with you on that.  

When Jesus became divine is, in fact, CENTRAL to Christian doctrine.  Are you not familiar with the Nicene Creed (which itself was written to help settle the debates, debates which originated in the contradictions contained within the scriptures)?:

>I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

>And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only-begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds;
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father,
by whom all things were made.

To be clear, the "relevant versus on the topic" (your words) are not ambiguous in any way.  They are not subject to interpretation.  There is therefore no reason for "theologians to argue", at least if "Sola Scriptura" is the mandate.  For the scriptures are explicitly and hopelessly irreconcilable on this point (and many more central to Christian doctrine).  Here are a few of the relevant "scriptures" regarding the nature of Jesus:

>You are my son; **today** I have begotten you. (Luke 3:22 as stated in our oldest and best surviving manuscripts)

>Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and **declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead**.... (Romans 1:3-4 per the KJV)

>**In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God**. The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3 per the KJV)

So...which is it?  Was Jesus **innately** God's divine  son since **"the beginning"** (per John), or was he **"begotten"** of God only upon **his baptism** (per unperverted Luke) or was he "declared" (the better translation would be "designated" rather than "declared") Son of God by reason of his **"resurrection from the dead"** (per Paul)?

The authors of the "scriptures" plainly disagreed on this question.  To suggest otherwise it to make a mockery of language in an attempt to salvage your "doctrine".  And yet, how could that be?  How could an" infallible" book contain any contradiction, much less contradiction on a point that goes to the very core of Christian doctrine (Jesus' sinless godly nature)?  

Resolving this dispute is not merely at matter of scriptural "interpretation".  Rather, it requires **deciding** between competing and contradictory claims of scripture.  And that's why "Sola Scriptura" is such folly.  The nature of Jesus is central to Christian doctrine and yet "sola scriptura" gets us nowhere.  This is why the Catholic Church long ago abandoned any contention that scripture is infallible and  the only or even primary source of Godly authority.  This is why Constantine had to call the Council of Nicea (to settle with force and with secular power that which could not be settled by theologians with reasoned appeals to "Sola Scriptura" or even to other sources of religious authority).  

The incontrovertible fact is that you **don't** rely **only** on scripture, contrary to your claims.  Rather, you rely on **doctrines** that were developed **by humans** at the time of Constantine, and imposed upon Christians worldwide by force, precisely becasue appeals to scripture were totally ineffective in resolving key points of doctrine.  Why?  **Because "the scriptures" disagreed and contradicted one another on these key points.**. And, many scriptures explicitly contradict those doctrines.  

For instance, both Paul and original Luke contradict the Nicene Creed's claims of Jesus' pre-existent divinity.  And yet, rather than believing Paul or original Luke, you choose to believe the decision of the Nicene Council as memorialized in the Nicene Creed, which based its conclusions mostly on John, ignoring Paul's and Luke's positions completely.  

I've already provided numerous examples of other such contradictions and resulting alterations to our Bible designed to disguise them, and you've yet to contradict even one of my examples.  Instead, you ignore them as immaterial, insisting sheepishly that doctrine isn't implicted by these changes.  Except, they're not, and it is, and I just proved it.
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vote details (1)
@sponge-bob ·
$0.05
That was a lot of work.   Upvoted :)  

I too was a bit perplexed by the 70 or so interpretations of the English Word.  I live in South America and have witnessed similar debates about the 20 or so interpretations that exist in Spanish as well.  

I have chosen to learn the letters in Hebrew and start there.  I have plugged along with Hebrew for quite some time and am well into the second book of the Tenak - uninterpreted.  The depth that has been added to my understanding of scripture is amazing.   Understand that all Greek, Latin, Spanish, etc. bibles are not word for word.  Reading the word for word "translation" carries genders and pronouns for speaker as well as listener in the original language.   One cannot make sense of most scripture if reading a translation - if it's accurate.  

Reading left to right, you will see what I mean below

http://i.imgur.com/NO3ynIpm.png
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vote details (3)
@stan ·
$0.04
Very interesting!
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vote details (1)
@stan ·
$0.06
Another point I found compelling is this:

**The little things the two schools of thought find to argue about says a LOT about what they do NOT argue about.**

This means that the common critic's claim that Scriptures have been corrupted beyond recognition due some variant of the old "telephone game" of successive copies diverging is overwhelmingly denied by the lack of arguments about them.  

**Where are these corruptions?**

http://www.sothebys.com/content/dam/stb/lots/N09/N09048/032N09048_75SR4_crop.jpg
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vote details (2)
@sean-king · (edited)
I've noted many of these corruptions already, and I've demonstrated that, contrary to your contentions, they were material, substantive and influenced the evolving Christian doctrines.  But, even so, it's likely that we've uncovered only a small portion of these "corruptions".  Why?  Becasue we know for a fact that they were sytematically and ruthlessly supressed starting during the time of Constantine.

Prior to Constantine's conversion, Rome had ruthlessly and systematically supressed Christianity, right?  Every Christian remembers the times of the "martyrs".  They have no problem appreciating the full extent of its horidness.  

And yet, these same Christians naively believe that once Constantine converted, he embraced all forms of Christianity.  He didn't. Rather, he called the Nicene Council to resolve the many and varied disputes within Christianity and to create a standard Christian doctrine for once and all.  That doctrine was then enforced with the same ferocity, in fact more ferocity, over the subsequent centuries that Rome had originally directed toward Christians in general.  

In other words, once the canon started to become fixed during the time of Constantine, "heretical" documents were systematically destroyed at worst or simply ignored (that is, not copied for posterity) at best.  Versions of the cononical gospels that differences from those endorsed by Rome (such as, perhaps, the original Matthew which was written in Hebrew) and the original Mark (which contained only "sayings of the Lord" though "not in order") disappeared over the subsequent centuries.  

Having said that, I would not be surprised if some of them are eventually found.  Remember, it's only been within the last century that the Nag Hamadi Library and the Dead Sea Scrolls were both discovered, and they contained a great many "heretical" Christian/Jewish texts that had been supressed nearly out of existence.  It would not be surprising for someone to one day stumble upon the original Matthew or the original Mark, or perhaps Luke or John or versions of the letters of Paul that differ markedly from our received ones.  Given the extent of the suppression, the odds are not great, but with the passage of sufficient time, it's possible.
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@stan · (edited)
While I certainly don't condone the actions of the popes throughout history, there was nothing in principle wrong with gathering the leaders of Christianity together at multiple conferences over the centuries to address issues of controversy and weed out teachings deemed to be false by the majority.  The alternative is to allow false teachings to proliferate without bound.

Acts 15 describes the first of these councils in Jerusalem with the actual apostles present which serves as a model and an implicit endorsement of the process.

I will concede that at each of these major events we are counting on the Holy Spirit to oversee the decisions that were made under the doctrine that _inspired scripture must be preserved the same way_ if it is to reach us so that we can obey it as commanded.  This is an article of faith backed up by the Scriptures that Jesus Himself endorsed.
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vote details (1)
@steemtruth ·
The **King James is the inspired word of God in English.** 

The NIV has inserted words like 'new order' which I believe is pre-programming Christians to accept the **'New World Order'.** 

Let's compare the KJV to the NIV:

#### NIV inserts New World (order)

Hebrews 9:10 **(KJV)** - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of **reformation.**

Hebrews 9:10 **(NIV)** - They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the **new order.**

#### NIV has swapped Jesus with Lucifer

Only one place in the entire KJV Bible will you find the word **Lucifer.** This is how we know and define Satan. We actually put a name on Satan, calling him **Lucifer.**

Isaiah 14:12 **(KJV)** - **How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer.** 

Isaiah 14:12 **(NIV)** - **How you have fallen from heaven, morning star,** son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

In the NIV the **morning star** fell from heaven and was cast down to earth - but the **morning star is Jesus Christ.** Even the NIV confirms this in Revelation 22:16. 

### Jesus falls from Heaven instead of Lucifer in the NIV

Revelation 22:16 **(KJV)** - I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am, (Jesus speaking), I am the root and the offspring of David, **and the bright and morning star.** 

Revelation 22:16 **(NIV)** **I, Jesus,** have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. **I am** the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright **Morning Star.”**

**What did Jesus call himself? The morning star. That's his title.** 

**Both the King James and the NIV in Revelation 22:16 state that Jesus Christ is the morning star.** 

Who is falling down from heaven in the NIV Isiaih 14:12? How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn? Instead of Lucifer being cast out of heaven in Isaiah 14:12, in the NIV, we have Jesus being cast out of heaven.

These changes are very sublte but very impactful. In a few years the NIV will change the verses even further and over time it will significantly change key doctrine in the minds of the masses and they won't even realise it. 

The KJV has told us that Lucifer was cast out of heaven for wanting to be like the most high, wanting to be like God. The NIV, after attacking Christ's deity, after attacking his preexistence, after attacking the fact that he was born of a virgin, that he had no beginning, that he had no ending, that he was God in the flesh, it's now accusing him of wanting to be like the Most High. He is the Most High. 

The NIV is a satanic interpretation, period. King James Bible only.

NIV = Non Inspired Version. 

Find out all about the differences in this wonderful documentary.

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@bimmerhead ·
You write with a lot of confidence. That can be very dangerous.
Please read this regarding Isaiah 4:12. It would appear that it is the KJV that may be in error, not the NIV: https://bible.org/article/lucifer-devil-isaiah-1412-kjv-argument-against-modern-translations
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@steemtruth · (edited)
Why don't you just read what the NIV says instead of linking off to a blog post that tries to defend the fact that the NIV has Jesus **falling from heaven?** Should the commentary on the blog post be inserted into the NIV bible so that people can get that explanation or should they just be able to pick up a bible and trust it?

1 Cor 14:33 - For **God is not the author of confusion,** but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

If God is not the author of confusion then he isn’t the author of the NIV because at the very best Isaiah 14:12 and Rev 22:16 contradict each other which is the very definition of confusion.  

Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) - How you have **fallen from heaven, morning star,** son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Revelation 22:16 (NIV) **I, Jesus,** have sent my angel to give you [a] this testimony for the churches. **I am** the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright **"Morning Star."**

Jesus called himself the morning star in the NIV (Rev 22:16) and the NIV then has the **"morning star” falling from heaven** in Isaiah 14:12.

There is no side-stepping what the NIV says. Jesus falls from heaven.  

The King James Bible is the inspired word of God in English. 

The NIV attacks the deity of Christ, it has removed the word 'hell' 39 times. It has removed entire verses. 

For a new translation to pass copyright laws it has to be significantly changed. That's why we have all of these different bible versions today. The Word of God doesn't change, man changes it for profit and Satan changes it so as to cast doubt on the authority of the bible. 

The King James Bible is free of copyright restrictions, anyone can print it off and distribute it freely.

Be careful reading blog posts from men. There is no harm in reading them but only when you keep the bible as your final authority and foundation document. 

Psalm 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Galatians 6:3 - For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Romans 1:22 - Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
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