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Thoughts on the Current Experiment and Potential Strategies by sykochica

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· @sykochica · (edited)
$40.29
Thoughts on the Current Experiment and Potential Strategies
<center>![](https://steemitimages.com/DQmcRkbWQ335NwhMXdFvQgimybc73RYpjDB3gTvRHHLrJZj/image.png)</center>

# <center>In reality, every cent I've made on here from paying in NOTHING is a BONUS!</center>

### <center>I've never been paid anything to write what ever I feel like. I am NOT ENTITLED to free money, merely appreciate it.</center>

First things first, **THEY'RE NOT TAKING YOUR MONEY!!** I get that you see the **potential payouts** going down, but it's just that...potential. Do you throw the same emotional fit when it drops down due to votes being diluted and the price of steem going down? While perhaps confusing, I highly doubt this makes you flip out. Now while I understand the bad feelings that come from seeing your payout go up, which is by an even higher amount than usual by the whales that *are* voting right now, the overall rewards pool isn't changing. What is happening is that the rewards are being spread around to more people, being decided by more people...each having a greater impact in the decision of who gets what.

I get it, I really do, my own posts have felt the effect of this, but in the end...I didn't invest money from my pocket here (like many content creators.) **Rather than screaming about how fair/unfair something is, my time (which is my true investment) is better served looking at what I want to do about it.** Remember that the whales who are not voting are forfeiting their curation rewards, which is the only way they really earn on here right now (short of steem price going up) since most if not all of them don't post (typically declining rewards when they do.)

**[NOTE: I'm not on a specific side of this issue, merely in the camp of let's see what happens. There are pro's and con's to this, which I'll touch on below.]**

<center>http://i.imgur.com/Xs4cJOi.png</center>

<center>![](https://steemitimages.com/DQmdGyfc9UYSu2Z7XqxwgYbZbJg4RoTUeecepPT1VoL9o3j/image.png)</center>
# <center>My Quick Take on the No-Whale Voting Experiment</center>
Many people have already written about this at length both for and against. So feel free to skip down to the strategy section. 

## What is the Experiment and Why
This idea had been thrown around by many in the community (especially minnows) many months back. The idea is that if the whales stop voting, minnows and dolphins (small and mid Steem Power holders) would have a greater influence on how the daily reward pool is distributed to authors and commentors through voting. With the current voting formula in place (n^2) the whale votes had a disproportional effect, which while quite nice when you get the $20 upvote from a single person, this concentrated rewards. 

**EVERYTHING** that is done by a whale gets griped about by somebody. If they vote, they get yelled at for voting and not 'spreading the wealth around' and if they don't vote they get yelled at for not rewarding people (especially those who have gotten used to that level of rewards.) This isn't meant to be knocking anybody, but it's important to try and have some perspective on this aspect. 

## Pro's
* Smaller and Midsize users votes are now carrying **A LOT** more weight, meaning they give more money to a post or comment. For quite a while now most people didn't seen the payout increment even a penny when it was sitting below $1. There have been tons of calls for the larger portion of the community to be able to play a larger roll in distributing rewards and right now we have that opportunity

* Curation rewards have vastly increased proportionally. Personally I've seen my triple of more in most cases and I don't even work on generating them, preferring to just vote on what I want. For those of you who have built up some Steem Power this is your opportunity to see some greater returns on this, especially if you are focusing to maximize these returns (like searching out low-paying, 30ish minute old posts that you can foresee getting voted on by a bunch of other smaller/midsize users...since the whales aren't voting.)

* There is a (potentially) greater ability to produce content in more unique areas and tags that have had readers/engagement, but not a focus by the few (50) whales. Having the concentrated rewards by whale voting tended to drive people to post in the areas that we being curated frequently by these few users. With the larger population now having more of a say, you can get some payout (say $1-$2 dollars compared to next to nothing.)

## Con's 

* The lack of communication on this experiment has caused a lot of issues with community members either due to the drop in their 'normal' rewards or the impact of seeing their posts flagged and payouts drop (after being excited.) I'm happy to see some messages (even if automated) being left on posts that are receiving flags to at least attempt to provide some information on what's going on. However, some notice ahead of time would have been extremely useful both to inform the community as a whole that this was going to occur and allow them some ability to choose ahead of time what they want to do about it themselves (i.e. not post certain things until it's over.) 

* Not having all of the whales on board with this, nor seemingly Steemit Inc (since I've seen @dantheman voting) has required the flagging to occur to allow for an 'accurate' idea of the effect, at least pertaining to voting patterns and payouts. I do understand that there is rarely if ever unanimous decisions made, and users here are in reality allowed to do whatever they want short of abuse. However, in this particular case, not having every whale user on board is has caused WAY MORE posts to be flagged in the name of the experiment.

* It's very difficult to devote enough time to keep up with all of the whale votes that are going out to effectively flag them all or adapt flag weights as new whale votes are applied. Even though I personally feel that the experiment is doing it's best to apply these 'rule conditions' evenly across the board, simply due to the understandable time lag between new whale vote being applied and the countering flag, causes many to view things as not being applied consistently.

<center>http://i.imgur.com/Xs4cJOi.png</center>
<center>http://i.imgur.com/IBeOuem.jpg?1</center>
# <Possible Strategies to Apply for Better Payouts without Whale Votes</center>
**[These are just my thoughts to approach it and no guarantees can be given for every user.]**

With the whales not voting or having their votes being countered, we can no longer try to garner support from single (or few) sources as we have been able. The posts that are atop the trending pages (commonly) are held by those with large number of votes by small to midsize users. While yes, the dolphins are the 'new whales' proportionally, with the voting formula in use (n^2) the gap between a minnow and a dolphin is muuuch smaller than that of a dolphin and a whale. Even though we have a new (and larger) set of 'high impact' voters, proportionally they don't have the as large of an impact in comparison to the whales.

So here are my ideas on how to approach this.

### <center>More than Ever the Name of the Game is ENGAGEMENT!</center>

1. Now more than ever engaging with more and new people is crucial. The more people you are able to interact with and get on their radar, the higher the likelihood you can receive a vote from them. Now this doesn't mean spam your post in their comment section, this means engaging in conversation with them. Give them a reason to want to know more about you and your work without even having to ask. While never perfect, this greatly increases the chance they will look at your blog and hence most recent posts. 

2. Become an active participant in @steemtrails. Even though they are being viewed as a 'whale' they are still voting (even with reduced power and/or less often) there are TONS of individuals that are a part of this that you can gain access to. There are dozens and dozens of various topic trails going on from gardening, to gaming, to fiction, and more. Find the ones that fit with your interest and passions and go interact with those people. Build friendships, possibly even be a part of curating these tags.

3. Use steemit.chat and discord channels like [Steemspeak](https://discordapp.com/invite/sqxV63P), [VOTU](https://discord.gg/H3m4u), [SteemTrail,](https://discord.gg/S6XEAUw) [SteemitTalk Podcast](https://discord.gg/u26fghN) or others to interact, promote your posts and just get to know more people. Heck, if you find you don't like any of these places, make your own and draw in the people you're looking for...it's free!

4. If you don't want to really do any of these or are so bothered by what is going on, just take a break from posting for a while. There is nothing forcing us to do anything here...it's OUR CHOICE. If it's not fun, satisfying, etc there is probably a better way to be spending your time. With this being labeled as an 'experiment' I think it's fair to accept that this will end after a period of time (I haven't heard specific on this myself.) Come back or increase your activity when you feel the time is right. 
<center>http://i.imgur.com/Xs4cJOi.png</center>
<center>![](https://steemitimages.com/DQmSh6GXYNZYnjEvCFYqkEucp9p2hTpAKVesnQjrXV5rTz5/image.png)</center>
## <center>Final Thoughts</center>

I really do understand the frustrations many people are having with this, even those who are for the experiment that is going on. There are plenty of constructive ways to state your dislike and why to add into the conversation. The whales and steemit inc really do hear these things, even though not everything can be done. There are always going to be some unhappy with a decision they make. But in the end, I do prefer seeing something be done over nothing. Even if those something could have been done in a better way and ideally any futures 'experiments' can learn from this experience.

The end goal for everybody that is on here is to be benefiting in some way whether it's from community interaction, learning, practicing skills, making a little money, having a relatively uncensored outlet (compared to many other social media sites) or anything else you can think of. If you find you're not getting any benefit, it's time to reassess what you can do about instead of just repeating the same thing. 

**Remember the Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing expecting a different result. Be proactive in your decisions and actions.**


http://i.imgur.com/sKiCvWa.png
<center>http://i.imgur.com/Xs4cJOi.png</center>
## <center> [Don't Miss the Show! Follow the Steemit Talk Podcast (STP) Account](https://steemit.com/@steemittalk) </center>
### <center> [New STP Website!!](https://steemittalkpodcast.wordpress.com/) </center>
## <center>Are you new to Steemit and Looking for Answers? - Try https://www.steemithelp.net.</center>
<center>http://i.imgur.com/tCAIqAB.png</center>
Image Sources:
[Lab Experiment](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/4606958-Pipette-with-drop-of-liquid-over-test-tubes-for-an-experiment-in-a-science-research-lab-Stock-Photo.jpg)
[Can't Vote](https://www.flickr.com/photos/daquellamanera/3003780700)
[Strategy](https://www.pexels.com/search/strategy/)
[Thinker](https://pixabay.com/en/photos/thinker/)
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vote details (278)
@arthuradamson · (edited)
$1.04
Excellent post @skyochica
Since the experiment my average uptvote is generating about between 15 and 20 cents. One was 50 cents. 
This has never happened before. 
It gives a good feeling because you feel you are actually making some kind of contribution to someone post.
I voted on this post with 100% and it generated 19 cents.
Not sure what the results will turn out to be but if you took away the flagging part then I think it is quite positive.

It might sound strange, but rather than feeling bad about losing money if I got flagged, I would be far more upset if my reputation score was affected. This is why I am not posting until it is over so instead I am making the most of using my voting power to help good quality posts.
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vote details (12)
@sykochica ·
$0.85
Thank you!

I feel the same. I really like being able to see that penny increment from a zero all the way up to 9-10 cents on some bigger payout (pending) posts. I remember back in the day all the excited posts about being able to give a penny for the first time. It definitely gives a whole new level of excitement to voting.

I think you're spot on there. If the flags weren't 'necessary' I do think this experiment would be seen in a much more positive light. Along with this people would be seeing their payouts drop due to them, since the votes wouldn't even be happening (and then countered) in the first place. However, I do think there needs to be a way to still allow the whales to earn by not voting (with curation being their money maker) whether it be what was discussed in timcliff's (and others) posts on [Eliminating Curation Rewards](https://steemit.com/curation/@timcliff/elimination-of-curation-rewards) or something else. It's important (at least in my mind) to have something to reward the large passive SP investments since the 'interest' isn't there and otherwise why not just keep it all liquid purely earning through trading.

I can understand the problem of rep being effected. I'm somewhat lucky at this point having a higher rep than most of the whales, so even if there is a 'hit,' I really don't think it'd have a meaningful effect. While not positive though, I do think that with the flags being rather close to to the power of the whale votes they're countering (speaking in rshares) that it'd zero out reputation wise for anybody. But I can definitely understand not wanting to take the risk.
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@arthuradamson ·
$0.81
Good point regarding the whales still need to earn.
As you say there still needs to be incentive to own a large amount of SP. It is not an easy answer and the fact that it is so difficult to find this balance proves that Steemit is unique in internet history. We are all part of an amazing social experiment here that, if can be solved,  could have far wider implications in the real world than we yet realize. In that way at least, perhaps we should see it as a privilege to part of it for, together we are all trying to find and build a system that we can all agree is fair in a world where we have become used to being unfair.
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@ddschteinn ·
$0.95
Very well written and to the point. Thanks for the information and outlook. The details of Steemit can sometimes be complex and a bit confusing, but it is always a grand adventure. And an experiment. 

 I like your take on getting what you want out of the site. There are many unique goals and dreams folks chase on here, and all should be respected, and realize the great benefit from the community aspect of all of this. Thanks for sharing.
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@sykochica ·
Thank you and you're welcome!

There absolutely is a ton of complexity behind this place. On the upside, it's by no means a requirement to understand it in full, even though most people do spend time figuring it out piece at a time. Before I came here, I'd never dealt with cryptocurrency (short of just *hearing* about bitcoin and maybe a couple alt coins from gamer buddies.) Over the months I delved more into it purely because I was curious and wanted to be able to explain it better to people I was trying to bring onboard (some successfully, some not.) But it's definitely nice that all you have to really know to start is how to make a post. :D

>I like your take on getting what you want out of the site. There are many unique goals and dreams folks chase on here, and all should be respected, and realize the great benefit from the community aspect of all of this. Thanks for sharing.

Ty! I've always enjoyed seeing teams work well together whether at work or in games (yea, I fell into a World of Warcraft 'hole' years back...I'm better now. Lol) I liken it to a degree of the *angry drunk.* Doesn't being angry while drunk defeat the entire purpose? Why not find something that does achieve what is actually wanted. Simply being proactive towards ones goals goes a long way, even if things don't work out.

![](https://steemitimages.com/DQmVxTxS73uiDNyi91XLnuxTxtqUuxRYaH3R5AVnA7F93i3/image.png)
[Source](http://garydhenderson.com/category/writing-2/)
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@ddschteinn ·
$0.85
Remain positive and push on through. Thanks for the reply, and working at helping to make it a bit more understandable. And I always subscribed to the happy drunk...
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vote details (9)
@deanliu · (edited)
$1.02
You really nailed it, @sykochica!  Yes, go out and engage! not just post and run. But remember to engage with ***dolphins*** now, not whales!  **No! just kidding!** If you target at someone specific, probably you won't get upvoted as expected. Be strategical. **No! Again, Just kidding!** 
Do not engage just for the money, if you do you'll probably be disappointed and next time it will be *you* complaining out loud. We should view it this way - **do what we, users in a social media site, should - engage, and on average everyone doing so will be encouraged more for doing so**. Authors stay for engagement as well as some encouraging rewards, and readers stay for engaging authors and fellow readers.... how nice! :)
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vote details (12)
@sykochica ·
$0.02
Exactly! :D
It's crazy...motivate people to be social on a social site! Lol.

But yea, the goal really is getting connected to people. When you're honestly liked and/or appreciated, they'll go out of their way to support you financially and/or through comments. If you just beg, they may play along for a while with diminishing returns.

Imagine Facebook if nobody wrote messages, instead only clicking the like button. (or that STUPID poke button, lol)
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vote details (3)
@abit ·
$1.00
Hey hey, if you agree, why don't you upvote each others' comments. I don't want to be the first voter.
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vote details (12)
@deanliu ·
poking is fun. people like to act stupid. lol
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@exyle ·
$0.95
Great post and I agree with many of your points. Thanks you for creating this.
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vote details (11)
@sykochica ·
$0.81
Thank you! 
I felt it was time to finally chime in and ideally provide a little something beyond my take on it. I hadn't seen much posted on actually strategically adapting while the experiment is going.

I saw you're post on buying some Steem Power...much appreciation for that!! The investment a big piece to getting the share price going back up. :D
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vote details (9)
@fisteganos ·
$0.03
This is basically the discussion I've been having in my head all day but couldn't find a very articulate way to present it the way you have done here. 

People see things not going as they expect and begin to sulk immediately. There's a particular user that got me all irritated but that's not why we're here. 

It's common knowledge that this experiment would have been seen in a much better light if there was no need for the downvotes and that communication has been woeful. 

But power is now with the people, comments are getting rewarded. Hopefully the "entitled" folks see the light soon.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@sykochica ·
Here here! Overall I do REALLY like seeing the larger population have a say in the reward distributions. It wasn't as big a deal back in the July/August heydays when the share price so high and even a little SP would increment payouts up. But as Steem price has decreased, I think it become more apparent of how little impact most people had in who received what from the reward pool. 

Personally I'd love to see this worked into the code, so the flagging can end (due to psychological reasons) as well as a way to compensate current whales and incentivize holding large amounts of SP. 

>People see things not going as they expect and begin to sulk immediately. There's a particular user that got me all irritated but that's not why we're here.

I totally understand this. I had seem some of these users that (in my opinion) seemed to be completely missing the point of what was going on. That was part of what spurred me to even write this post, having been on the fence on whether to say anything on the matter. In the end, I find it more important to be pro-active in what I can do and control rather than purely pointing fingers and telling others what they 'have' to do. It's way more empowering and satisfying (at least for me, lol.)
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@fisteganos ·
Preach! 

Here's yet another one I just found and couldn't resist saying something. 

https://steemit.com/steemit/@lily-da-vine/i-quit-i-think#@fisteganos/re-lily-da-vine-i-quit-i-think-20170315t184241589z
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@fuzzyvest ·
$0.87
Since the params of this "experiment" dont even exist i am forced to vote as I (hope) abit has decided as to what a "whale" even is in this "test". 

Though I do like many of the points you made. I would add "doing experiments correctly" to the top con. ;)
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vote details (10)
@sykochica ·
I do get what you're saying, and do overall agree. To some degree I left this generalized under the communication/planning/implementation points in the post. My target audience was definitely more the non-whales on this.

Just to give my opinion, and let me reiterate I'm not an investor, nor a whale, so this is purely an outsider prospective. Take this all with a grain of salt.

With the understanding that this platform has run on the ideal of "Do what thou Wilt" (short of abuse) mentality, asking (let alone 'requiring') another user (especially a whale) to be voting in a specific way, seemed to go against this. Now, I do understand that it's very rare to have everybody on board,  even more difficult as the number of 'group' members increase. To me, this is why there were the witnesses to decide what went into the code/hard forks on a super-majority (or whatever the exact number is.) But at least this didn't take everybody to agree. (Yes, this still have it's own issues and concerns, but it is at least some mechanism to work from.)

All in all, I've way preferred it when flags were there for abuse, which was way less subjective. While I can understand those who flag due to concentrated voting/redistributing/etc, it's in my opinion opened a huge can of worms. Way back in the day when I ran an MUD, I truly tried to hold to the mantra of "The code was the law." If something was being exploited, it required a code change. I had to expect groups of 'humans' to do the 'wrong' thing when given the choice that would give them a benefit/reward.

I truly wish that this experiment would have been implemented in the code, meaning people would still be free to act/vote how they wanted (within the new codebase rules) and the flagging wouldn't be necessary. 

Just my 2 cents on the matter.
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@fuzzyvest ·
hehe ...MUDs....

I am sorry that i walk away smiling about that.  I agree with everything you said here. ..but I WILL walk away smiling about the comment on the MUDs :)

God you bring back memories....lol
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@gduran ·
I believe the idea of this platform and what most of us saw was of a place where I could write a story, an opinion or just an article on something and if anyone valued it get a vote and maybe make some money out of it.
It got distorted once a lot of people started using bots, people now don't even read the articles and the bots just upvote anyone they are progammed to upvote.
When what you get is people making money for a Youtube video, which somehow SteemCleaners thinks isn't copying or stealing other people's materials, when just a sentence gets a lot of votes because the guy is in good standing with someone who has a lot of power and a lot of bots, the idea behind Steem collapses.
Then you have this experiment were a couple of whales get to screw a lot of good writers just to make  a point nobody asked them to, makes the thing get worse.
Every day I read of more and more people just taking a break or leaving the platform altogether.
My idea is stop these damned experiments they are useless and damaging, and please ban anyone from using bots, this is what is killing Steemit, use your logic not your heart and you will see this is true. Upvote everything you think has merit and if you are going to downvote (which I personally abhor, and I assure you I will never do, I disagree with a lot of people and argue with them, but I know they have a right to their opinion) do it because of a real cause perhaps a hate article or something like that not because it's anti-Trump or anti-Hillary or a whale upvoted it..
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@goodguygreg ·
$0.87
@asshole's flag campaign was received poorly by the community, and it didn't even have a significant effect on anything. Now people are receiving multiple flags, and the flagwhales feel they are as above reproach as the votebot whales.

Disproportionate whale vote weight is a problem inherent in the code that needs to be addressed by a fork of the code. Votebots are a problem that could be addressed by modifying the vote weight provided to posts that are read versus bot-voted or upvoted from the feeds.

Whales using their weight to build flagbots exacerbates both problems rather than addressing them.
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vote details (10)
@sykochica ·
The comparison between the asshole account and the whale flags (in my mind) end with the psychological impact of being flagged. That account had little to know effect beyond the psychological and also tried to blanket anybody. The whale flags are specifically (and publically stated) to be countering other whale votes. Neither are pleasant for most users to see, but they have vastly different impacts beyond that.

Personally, I'd love to see a modified weight applied for those to actually read (or at least scroll down the post) vs those who just click on the thumbnail view. This potentially even be extended for a greater weight for those who leave a comment as well. I have no idea the amount of work it would take to code this, but afaik, at least all of these pieces are a part of the blockchain (versus the frontend.)

Bots in general are always (and going to be) a problem. I've heard calls for captcha's which conceptually I like, until thinking of needing to fill that in every time I vote...that'd get annoying, especially on mobile devices. 

But all in all, I can agree. I'd prefer to see things done in the code itself to deal with issues as much as possible. It's worth giving a mad props to @steemcleaners since much of what the do, does require a human in the loop to review things (that bots may find.)
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vote details (1)
@goodguygreg ·
It is that psychological effect of mass flagging that creates ill will in the community. If a single @asshole flag caused consternation, especially among new users, the whale flags in large numbers that actually hid good content for a while did serious harm.

Intentions matter. Unintended consequences may matter more.
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@happyphoenix ·
Great, sykochica!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sykochica ·
Thank you! I've been happy to see you back around more often!
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@happyphoenix ·
$0.92
Thank you,  you give insipiration and a good example for me so that one of reason why I try to write again on steemit. Nice !
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vote details (9)
@jaki01 ·
<blockquote>
Con's
</blockquote>
I personally noticed another effect which I feel to be a "con":
<br>
Since that experiment started I have the impression to get more or less the same rewards for articles which are rather easy to write like for example some pictures of my fireplace at home, a chess position or any meme as for articles which cost me much time, research and energy like for example an article about science or a really detailed travel report containing many photos and comments.
<br>
Before I could notice a real difference: The more I invested in an article the higher the reward, now not anymore. Actually I don't know what the exact reason for this effect is, but it <em>does</em> exist.
<br>
Of course - as you correctly wrote - anyway I have <em>no "right" to earn anything at all</em>, but I admit it was a good feeling, to get more when I invested more, and I fear this change could lead to more "simple-and-easy-but-enough-to-get-a-few-cent-posts". In theory people do write out of interest and because they want to create something nice, but in practice that's only a part of the motivation behind giving ones best: humans want to be rewarded and will adapt pragmatically to the new conditions.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sykochica ·
$0.03
I can absolutely understand where you are coming from and having seen other comments akin to this.

To some degree, I think there was whale support for those longer to create, more in depth posts (which I can understand,) however I found my more drawn out posts, even when getting a good payout, really lacked in views and engagement. Most whales didn't seem to really take the time to fully digest longer posts, instead scrolling after a paragraph or two, at best catching headings and some bolded words. This isn't meant to knock anyone, I've even done this myself at times.

Months back I would sometimes spend 4-5 hours (sometimes more) writing and editing a post, then another 4-5 hours trying to promoting in the chatrooms or indirectly through comments. After I while I started trying to get most of my posts knocked out in an hour and make them easily and quickly digestible by the reader, ideally a 3-5 minute read (since I tend to write vs photos and other things.) 

With the *MASS* amount of posts that people try to get through each day on here, I do feel that unless it's a topic someone is deeply interested in, there is only so much attention span they're willing to give. (Again, not a knock on anyone, just an observation and I have been guilty of this myself.) So I've tried to adapt to that fine line of 'giving people what they want' mixed with the posts that I want to write and devote more time on. This at least let me work on my longer pieces of the course of days, instead of feeling like I had to push to get a big one out each day.

Now beyond all this, I truly feel that with most users being used to their votes having such little influence (i.e. rarely incrementing a penny let alone a nickel) they've been rather indiscriminate with their votes. While it is quite subjective on what it worth a vote versus not, I hope that as time goes on, more users will find the impact their votes actually have to once again let the better pieces (even though not always longer or taking more hours to create) to the top. In the end, it's the content consumers that decide what goes viral.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@jaki01 ·
Thanks for your long and thoughtful reply!
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@lola-carola · (edited)
$0.95
In the beginning, I was skeptical with the "experiment" but your post has cleared the thing up a lot in my mind, I've seen another point of view and you have offered good strategies to deal with it

thanks for clarify this
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vote details (10)
@sykochica ·
Glad it was helpful! The skepticism is quite ok, I'm not too far off myself, but willing to see where it goes. The 'need' for the flags alone is a huge issue right now that would have to get figured out...that really can't go on indefinitely.

I'll fully admit it's not been without it's problems but I do personally believe that with a little better communication (I sooooo await the day there is a little 'Announcements' icon at the top of the site to help with things like this) and without the need for flags, most the community would be supporting the experiment. (Purely my opinion, I don't really want to speak for everybody.)
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@lola-carola ·
$0.92
i like this: "most the community would be supporting the experiment", maybe there are better solutions but as i said in other replies, it has been a imposition, not a choice.
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vote details (9)
@lpfaust ·
$0.92
@sykochica Personally I am a a bit torn. I think everyone agrees the system is broken and needs to be corrected. However, I'm not convinced this experiment will achieve the results which are being sought.  
* Increasing bot registrations to get around the continuing flagging does not equal a growing community. 

* Increasing numbers of comments and blog posts needs to be viewed with context. If the explosion is due to outrage, I wouldn't call that successful, sustainable engagement. 

My concern is more and more authors are withholding rather than publishing. Several I follow and actively converse with are going dark for a bit. Honestly, the whole "experiment" seems incredibly reactionary rather than carefully considered, and it could have some very severe consequences.

I don't think writers who study a market and cultivate relationships with patrons who have deep pockets and voting power should be punished for not writing from a place of altruism. I'm sure content creators on the sites you may read outside of Steemit would not supply content for free. I'm sure the journalists writing some of your favorite articles in the magazines you may read would feel similarly, as would the authors of the novels and books you may read. They treat their writing as a business. Some have chosen to treat this as a business, and because their motivation is different from the altruistic "fun" blogger somehow now they are the problem on Steemit? I don't think that's a fair assertion. It's also somewhat hypocritical on a blog dominated by anarcho-capitalists (which the phrase itself is an oxymoron) and steeped in libertarian values. 

Everyone here is motivated by self-interest. For some it manifests in maximizing payouts. For others it's about creating a large social network and for others it's pure catharsis. Everyone's self-interested motivation is different. The flaw is not in their approach or rewards, but the system in which they choose to exercise their self interest.

When businesses are in the planning stage, the first thing they do is look for a market to sell a product or service. Many businesses choose to target "upscale" customers, selling luxury products and services. They spend time learning about their target market, carefully and deliberately cultivating the relationship to receive long-term, recurring revenue. Food purveyors, fashion labels, automobile companies, concierge services, etc. Should they be punished for not altruistically giving away their product without expectation of payment?

It seems as of late, the community has been engaged in a witch hunt for straw men to unleash their pent up rage upon. Flagging wars were a manifestation of this and, make no mistake, this is simply another repackaged flagging war with new straw men. The rage and frustration should be directed at the architects of the system whom many feel refuse to engage in a way which makes them feel heard and acknowledged. I get that they may be overwhelmed with a million issues to tackle, but it's business 101 to engage with your customers - even if they are spouting venom you may not agree with. Their perception is their reality.

Personally, I have scaled back my content production dramatically, but I chose to do so before @abit and the whales decided to do this experiment. It came more from a place where I saw trending pages loaded with Steemit related topics (primarily bitch-festing) upvoted to nosebleed levels from both sides. That spawned a never ending train of articles in the same vein. This repackaged flag-war is doing the same. It stifles and drowns out true value-added content which the platform needs to attract more users who are not bots.

I'd like to Steemit get to a place where we are not chasing straw men. I'd like to see a burst of more value-added content and less Steemit related content.  I believe the system is broken an needs to be fixed, and  more linear vote power curve seems like a great start. The users need to demand this become a priority from the architects and stop demanding all users motivations come from the same place as their own.

Here is to hoping.
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vote details (7)
@abit ·
Thoughtful. Thanks.
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@lpfaust ·
$0.03
@abit you're welcome and thanks for taking the time to read through my long-winded comment. 

I have no doubt the end result you and the others are searching for is a lasting solution, while perhaps giving the users a taste of the poison they seem to be clamoring for before it becomes code. Attracting a massive user base and STEEM which is orders of magnitude more valuable serves the self-interests of everyone here - altruistic and greedy alike. 

I may disagree with the methods employed and how it was initiated (more the latter), but I believe the motivation comes from the place of making STEEM more valuable.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@smooth ·
$1.05
Flattening the vote power curve would have much the same effect in terms of completely changing the game and greatly reducing the rewards that come from 'patrons who have deep pockets' (unless, of course, they actually _pay_ those rewards out of those pockets). To earn more with a flatter curve (as currently with whales sitting out or being countered with downvotes) will require getting (and keeping) a larger base of followers.
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vote details (13)
@lpfaust ·
> *To earn more with a flatter curve (as currently with whales sitting out or being countered with downvotes) will require getting (and keeping) a larger base of followers.*

Two counterpoints to this argument. 

* This argument assumes the experiment will be successful and a larger user base will come into Steemit. I would suggest to you the experiment is creating more badwill than goodwill because of the user perception of what a flag means. No bot script or politically correct message will change the perception of being collateral damage in an ongoing flag war. One cannot build a larger base from a diminishing group.

* I do agree it will **force** users to seek out a larger user base. That certainly has an Orwellian sound to it. One cannot simply compel user engagement at the point of a gun or threat of diminished rewards. Punishing a user for employing a successful strategy which earns larger rewards with a smaller patronage is identical to punishing a programmer for writing clean and elegant code. Consider that brands partner with social influencers to leverage their social capital (in essence upvotes) to earn rewards in the form of customers buying. It benefits them to grow a following organically on other social media sites, but they are not forced to grab a larger user base to earn proportionate rewards. If anything they are rewarded greatly for their efficiency.  Pursuing a similar strategy of efficiency here means chasing vote power. It is only logical that on a site where upvotes are linked to the size of the user's stake,  that is the primary driver in a strategy, and social capital is relegated to a lower tier. Again, an individual should not be punished for pursuing a strategy of efficiency.

> *Flattening the vote power curve would have much the same effect in terms of completely changing the game and greatly reducing the rewards that come from 'patrons who have deep pockets' (unless, of course, they actually pay those rewards out of those pockets).*

Personally, I support some kind of flattening of the vote power curve. I think larger stakeholders deserve greater vote weight to allocate the rewards pool, but the current vote power curve is clearly broken.  I agree with many of the other members of the Steemit community that it's good to see my votes actually impact rewards to authors I support. 

I think the community as a whole is open to this idea as well, but engaging flagging/downvoting to counterbalance whale votes creates a seriously negative perception among many minnows and dolphins. Some of them have taken the time to cultivate relationships to earn higher rewards, which both allows and motivates them to produce incredible, value-added content to this site. They should not be arbitrarily punished for pursuing a strategy used successfully on other social media platforms.

The flagging may have a noble purpose, but in the end, the body count is starting to stack up. Can we agree that fixing the problem would be a better solution than arbitrary vigilante justice euphemized into the phrase "an experiment"?
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@sykochica ·
I have limited time before I have to head out this morning, but at least wanted to give a short reply for now...I'll follow up more in depth when I get home.

>Increasing bot registrations to get around the continuing flagging does not equal a growing community.

Agreed, giving more weight to smaller users gives motivation for people to make bot accounts to exploit the system. I personally don't want to see that kind of behavior rewarded. I don't know at what SP level per bot it would become beneficial, compared to pooling it to a single account. Either way, bots are always a concern.

>Increasing numbers of comments and blog posts needs to be viewed with context. If the explosion is due to outrage, I wouldn't call that successful, sustainable engagement.

I'm not advocating people to be focusing on engaging in the outrage. Personally, I've been extremely sick of polarizing drama being on the front page, most the time with commentors seeming to have very little idea of understanding both sides. If this place wants to be a social media site, engagement is a requirement, and hopefully it is done in many other, more useful (in my opinion) areas.

It's worth noting that the 'drama' posts just tend to be the loudest and given the most attention, hence what most people see as what's going on. Even people engaging off the posts work like in steemit.chat, discord, etc. But I'd love to see this implemented in the code itself as well as have a better outlet for 'drama' than having it plaster the trending page and enflaming users to 'take sides.' 

I'm so sick of seeing polarization when in reality we're all in the same boat. Disagreements don't HAVE to be polarizing.
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@meesterboom ·
$0.08
I agree so much with this. Such welcome clarity!

You know, I have read about the curation rewards being better but oddly I have found myself less bothered about aiming for the thirty minute mark and just freely voting whenever. No reason I can fathom. Maybe its just the heady feeling of my votes being worth something!
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vote details (4)
@merej99 ·
I vote when I want and don't ever look at the clock. Heck, some of my upvotes are right before the 24 hour mark because I'm trying to get caught up. WHO CARES, right? I'm here for the content and the camaraderie. The earnings is pure bonus.
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vote details (3)
@haphazard-hstead ·
$1.00
Hey, that's my strategy, lol. Not so good for curation rewards, but a lot more satisfying. Except I'm always trying to get caught up!  ; )
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vote details (9)
@jacobtothe ·
$1.04
I have never worried about vote timing. I often upvote good content I find after initial payout.
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vote details (9)
@meesterboom ·
I couldn't agree more!!
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@sykochica ·
$1.00
I totally hear you! It's very rare for me to see my vote power percentage get above 80 since, I just vote. Hehe. I used to move my slider down a bit for a day or two to let it recharge, but it's been quite a while since I've even though to do that. 

I only highlighted the curation rewards for those who do pay more attention to earning that way. :)
👍  , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (9)
@sykochica ·
$0.05
Thank you! I tend to be the 'middle-path' type of person. In the case of the experiment it's all with the mindset of trying to make this place better, even among the disagreements and slight turmoil.

I hear you there. I don't focus on the curation rewards myself either, also just enjoying seeing multiple cents being given when I vote. This tends to draw me to posts that already have rewards just so I can give more to those authors...even though this equates to lower curation. It's ok though, it's just not my focus, which is more on posts and the podcast.

However I do like to still take a look at my long list of curation rewards (I vote a lot, too much some times) and the amount per reward has markedly jumped. :)
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@meesterboom ·
$0.93
You have got me there, I am now trotting off to have a look at mine too!! lol
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vote details (10)
@merej99 ·
Very well stated @sykochica
I was just about to do a post but hell, I think I'm just going to link to a bunch of the common sense ones and call it a day.  
I like seeing how my vote counts for something and my investment into this platform has been time and creativity. I didn't pay into it so I've never complained about what I'm getting out of it.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sykochica ·
Thank you!
Oh I totally understand, I debated on whether to link many of the posts I'd already read on this, but decided not to 'ping' all those people with notifications. Lol. I did want to at least get something posted that touched on what this meant as a change of strategy and ways to still move forward with it.

>I like seeing how my vote counts for something and my investment into this platform has been time and creativity. I didn't pay into it so I've never complained about what I'm getting out of it.
Someday I'll be able to upvote you enough to buy a 'Dirty Bastard' beer! :D That would be awesome! In reality there is WAY more satisfaction in *giving* versus *receiving* anyway.
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@natator88 ·
$0.89
I like how balanced this assessment of the War of the Whales is. Resteemed!
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vote details (9)
@sykochica ·
Thank you! That was my goal with this. :)
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@pipes ·
$0.87
Your [reward](https://steemit.com/steem/@tibonova/introducing-pipes) for being in `Promoted` is an upvote and 0.013 SBD extra promotion. 
Good job, keep your contents promoted! :)
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vote details (11)
@pqlenator ·
Great post! I've seen so many posts about how bad the 'experiment' is, this one presents some possible strategies for the unhappy community users to try out. I myself have seen a much larger exposure...which in the long run is most likely good. There is lively discussion here so I'm resteeming.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sykochica ·
TY! 
I tried to provide both sides on the issue, since there's no denying this 'experiment' isn't without faults. But yea, I've been reading and following both sides of the discussions, and while important, I did feel it was necessary in what it meant strategy wise to get the better payouts. 

Admittedly, I have gotten my own flags during the experiment, both on my own posts and the @steemittalk podcast (which I co-host,) and some of them probably earned a little less than they would have. But I did see on these that the actual vote count and views were way below normal, so instead I took a different approach to what I was producing to try and change that. It's rather nice to see the trending pages actually be the things with higher vote counts, comment counts, etc versus purely the highest payouts. Even if this meant I had to adapt, these aspects are still a good thing for the platform as a whole in my eyes. (I'm glad that you've been able to benefit with the increased exposure through this, I do truly agree this will bring you benefits on multiple levels.)

I'm not always the most vocal or social person and for months I've gotten away from talking about Steemit topics. The first and foremost reason for not writing about Steemit is that I want to see non-Steemit content on here. I never went to Facebook to read about Facebook or to Reddit to read about Reddit...I went to those place for the other topics that fit my interests. The same holds true in my eyes on here. (This isn't meant as a knock towards anybody, just my preferred approach.)

Thanks for reading, the comment and the resteem. :D
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@richq11 ·
I'm with you! I came on here with nothing and now I have something...it wasn't free, per se, I wrote numerous articles. I wrote many on Blogspot and got paid nothing, so as far as I'm concerned it's all good!
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@sykochica ·
I definitely don't want to say time isn't *worth* something, but it's quite different than paying money. Ideally this could be of use to have a portfolio of work to pitch for paid work in the future. For now, I'll enjoy the relative freedom to write what I want and enjoy what I earn. :)
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@rubenalexander ·
I thank you for providing an explanation of what is happening.  

I have posted less frequently in the past frw weeks and still got hit with a flag because whales have voted on my content in the past.  

Is post frequency taken into account when a whale downvotes in this experiment or is it a blanket flag for anyone who has received a whale vote?

I was used to flagging only for plagerism or spam.  And figured whales and all others would  upvote or have contests to steer creators to make content for new tags.
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@sykochica ·
The whale flags are solely being used to cancel out the upvotes from whales that aren't reducing their votes low enough (percentage compared to their SP level) to be comparable with dolphins. Abit mentioned in a post that whales are considered those with more the 384,000 SP.

In you're case the flag looks like it was to counter-act created's upvote for that post.

This is really the only criteria (even though abuse would still be flagged, but that definitely wouldn't apply to your post.) Post frequency isn't a piece of the equation on this. From what I've seen the flags are weighted to match the actual rshares of the upvote so it's not taking away 'earnings' from other people's upvote nor be a hit on reputation. It's essentially a wash.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@silviabeneforti ·
$0.91
I agree with you on every point. 
Since I started to create content here, one of the "mantra" in my mind is engagement! Here in steemit, as in the other social media, "engagement" is a great source to built something good. It's as "coins" that we can grow up  without fiat or cryptocurrencies ^_^
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vote details (10)
@sykochica ·
Thank you!
You've been absolutely awesome getting integrated here! Everywhere I look I see your comments, on top of your posts (where you always respond to others comments) as well as seeing you at the podcast recordings! You're english is also phenomenal...better than some Americans I know. Lol

I'm so glad you joined up here. I'd love to see people able and willing to engage and interact as much as you!
👍  
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@silviabeneforti ·
$0.88
@sykochica I think there are 2 reasons  on the "why" is simple for me to engage people: at first I'm the same in the real life, I'm interested in different topics (very different from each other) and so I need to engage people to exchange experiences and skills. At second I'm using some social media from many years and the "engagement" has always been my favorite part ^_^ Here I can engage interesting people from all over the world, read interesting content on various topics, learn something about the cryptocurriencies (here in my city this is impossible, nobody knows them) and I can earn some money  for this, so I think it's fabulous!
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vote details (8)
@snowflake · (edited)
$1.14
>With the whales not voting or having their votes being countered, we can no longer try to garner support from single (or few) sources as we have been able. 

Trying to garner support from a single source is against the idea of social media. The point of having many followers is to earn more money, its like youtube the more sub you have the more money you have. Imagine if youtubers had to be friends with the right persons to get the most money, then the whole revenue model of youtube would be skewed and there would be no way for people to gauge progress.

>Now more than ever engaging with more and new people is crucial. The more people you are able to interact with and get on their radar, the higher the likelihood you can receive a vote from them. Now this doesn't mean spam your post in their comment section, this means engaging in conversation with them. Give them a reason to want to know more about you and your work without even having to ask. While never perfect, this greatly increases the chance they will look at your blog and hence most recent posts.

Giving power back to the people promotes engagement, who would have thought? /s

>If you don't want to really do any of these or are so bothered by what is going on, just take a break from posting for a while.

One thing that I noticed is that users who are currently being autovoted by whales seem to be the most upset. This is logic because currently they have some kind of guaranteed revenue which provides some stability which is good for them. However what they fail to understand is that this stability is an illusion, it is very fragile actually because any whales can decide to stop the autovote for any reason at any time. This experiment will provide a much more predictable and stable way to earn a revenue which is why I find it hilarious that so many people say they want to quit because of it. Authors who are serious about building a rep/following and want a stable source of revenue should be ecstatic about this experiment.



Anyway, good post @sykochica
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vote details (12)
@sykochica ·
$0.02
I can fully agree with everything you said here! While I can sympathize with those who see their rewards suddenly drop (for any reason whether a flag or a whale removing them from their autovote list) because the first thoughts are naturally 'What did I do wrong?'

But like you said, in the end it's really quite fragile and there is a danger to expecting the stability. I remember when I first came on here and was ecstatic to make my first penny...a penny!! I'd never been so excited about something that I often don't even bother picking up off the street. Then I'd frequently make a few bucks that made me excited, but when I made pennies I'd have the same 'What did I do wrong' feeling. Often we get into these states of 'normalcy' that much like building a tolerance, requires more and more. Like Admiral Ackbar says: 

![](https://steemitimages.com/DQmarszgC3JrWS8Kgj5FSEX81fyWDEeHCuWcTVuDw2L4cPZ/image.png)
[Source](https://www.pinterest.com/k1dblitz/all-admiral-ackbar-all-the-time-its-a-trap/)
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vote details (1)
@snowflake · (edited)
$1.01
> While I can sympathize with those who see their rewards suddenly drop (for any reason whether a flag or a whale removing them from their autovote list) because the first thoughts are naturally 'What did I do wrong?'

I would say almost everyone before the experiment was saying " what did I do wrong?" because rewards are very inconsistent for the large majority of authors.

The one who complain are the only one with some kind of stability but for most users on the platform rewards are a complete rollercosters. They would get a few pennies for days and then a post with $30 then back to few pennies ( this is the situation for a lot of users) and everyday they are asking what they did wrong. This is very problematic for authors to gauge popularity of their work within the platform.
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vote details (10)
@thebluepanda ·
$1.05
at first, I was kind of astonished with the lack of communication. Honestly, I can see its benefits right now (the lack of whale upvotes). In a social media platform, the trending page should be populated with the posts that majority of users like, not what a single powered whale likes. so far, so good. Although, I hope not many users got their rep going down.
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vote details (14)
@gavvet ·
rep only goes down if the downvote pushes the post below 0.00
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vote details (3)
@sykochica ·
$0.81
Thank you! 
I had thought it was this way and had mentioned that in another comment in here. Great to have that verified. There are some people not posting right now with a concern of it impacting their rep, perhaps knowing this can help.
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vote details (9)
@rubenalexander ·
THIS is the best outcome of the experiment imo.
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@sykochica ·
$0.97
I definitely understand. Some of the more recent changes have been driving a push back to people commenting, whether it was the change to the trending formula (that takes comment payouts into account), certain whales spending time to upvote comments, and even this experiment.

While there are always some fantastic users that leave a great comment on every post they open (seemingly) we can't expect this to naturally be for everybody. The system as a whole has effects that motivate people outside of these natural states, in reality because they see there's a chance of earning some money. I'm not saying this as a bad thing, just how people are.

Waaay back when in the early days, people commented a storm, especially when they saw some earning $1000+. For many it had to seem easier than writing and promoting a whole post. Eventually a good balance can be found to motivate people to post AND comment (ideally.) I do think we're going in the right direction. If nothing else, it's enjoyable for me to be able to actually give a penny to a comment now. Lol
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vote details (10)
@thebluepanda ·
$0.95
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vote details (8)
@unipsycho ·
well said and well thought out.  Agree on so many points, I'm glad some are writing the good sides of this, as having a real vote sure is a better way to engage on the platform, I agree!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sykochica ·
Thank you!
I felt it was important to try to give both sides of this as well as some strategies to work with while this is going on. 

And it's so nice to be able to give a penny to comments like yours again! Usually it's a been a big zero. :)
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@uwelang ·
$0.03
100% in agreement - anyone can be happy to earn some rewards here - whales which are mostly investors did pay a lot for their stakes so it is their entire right to use down votes - fully support the experiment even i got flagged. That is fair! 

Now time to support our captain and all that help driving this community! We decide together where this ship is moving towards! 

https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3936/33412314336_cb9e6d198b_o.jpg
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vote details (3)
@sykochica ·
Well said!! I myself have gotten flags to counteract the whale votes I had gotten, both on my posts and the @steemittalk podcast. However I do personally feel the importance of giving more voting influence to the larger population...it actually give renewed importance to their voting.

Now one thing that not be stated much with this is that it puts greater pressure on the population as a whole to actually try to 'curate' well when it comes to quality. Even though this is a subjective thing, I do think there has been a lot of indiscriminate voting (similar to just spamming Facebooks 'like' button on everything in your feed.) Should this continue, I truly hope the larger community as a whole can have a renewed focus of voting up things they would actually like to see more of on Steemit.
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