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Community backed insurance and tax on the Blockchain? (discussion) by tarazkp

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· @tarazkp ·
$17.17
Community backed insurance and tax on the Blockchain? (discussion)
Imagine an office of 100 people which means that each have a birthday each year. They decide to have a deal that every one will receive a present worth 100 dollars on their birthday. They decide to pass around a hat each time and everyone puts in 1 dollar. Each time the hat goes around, the collector takes 10 percent out of the hat as a fee of service and the price of the present is adjusted to 90. 

This means each person has paid the premium of 100 dollars for a 90 dollar present but, the collector has gathered 1000 dollars worth of fees. Was their service worth 1000?

https://i.imgur.com/4WbqCRV.png?1

I am just trying to figure a few things out when it comes to things like home insurance and whether it would be possible to set up a blockchain system that covers on a 'as required' basis rather than with the premiums. 

My home insurance is about 500€ a year in a country of 5 million people and 2 million homes. That means that if 500 is the average, 1 billion is paid in home insurance. If we say that the average value is 200,000€, that means that 5000 home can be completely replaced but, the figure for complete replacement was about 200 homes lost to fires. That means that the cost to replace spread between 2 million homes would be 20€ per household or, 10c per fire. That is a lot less than 500€

Okay, but there are other incidentals than complete fire destruction but what I am wondering is how far could this idea go *if* instead of individuals paying upfront large amounts to middlemen, the community backed each other. Of course, there would still need to be investigators and arbitrators factored in but, would it be cheaper? I *think* so.

What about tax?

What if instead of paying income tax, there was an amount withheld each paycheck (a percentage based on salary) that would be drawn upon in the 'as required' where each person would be able to see precisely where there tax money was used. Depending on 'tax stake' the correct percentage is removed. The leftover could build into a larger pool to cover or be drawn upon by the account holder. Would this make officials more accountable and would it lead to more efficient usage of resources for community purposes?

Infrastructure, education and all of these things *need* to be covered but, governments are largely inefficient mechanisms when dealing with them and the lack of transparency and accountability leaves a lot of room for misuse and corruption. But, without tax, many of these necessary functions would not get the support they require as people tend to only pay for *what they want* not, what they *need*, especially if they feel they aren't getting the direct benefits of it. People say, I don't have a car so I shouldn't pay tax to build roads but, all of the goods they consume were carried by trucks on those same roads.

All of this would be relatively simple to manage on a blockchain (or a few dedicated), wouldn't it? would it free up capital for better usage, higher quality of life. Could it be used to also hold public approval of large expenditures by proposal and consensus to adjust the rate withheld to build the pool? 

The blockchain tech is all about trust and accountability and if there is one area that should undoubtedly hold strong, is on public expenditures and usage of community funds. Perhaps rather than have a division, technology could create a hybrid system that provides a transitional phase to more sensitive, self-governed community but, *still* a community that backs each other without an authority to dictate terms.

There is a lot more complexity to this than I have included here but I wanted to leave it quite open and throw it out there to see what people think and come up with. yes, I know governments don't want transparency or accountability, I know that some don't want to pay for this or that, but, from a technical standpoint, would it be possible *and* would it be better management, or worse?

I am interested to read what comes about and I hope there will be good discussion between each other below the post. 

Taraz
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vote details (45)
@alex-linda ·
Your thoughts are very good ....... and you have posted a very nice blockchain ..... I like it very much ..... and I'm waiting for your next post ..... Thanks
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vote details (1)
@fknmayhem · (edited)
$0.12
Yeah, that blockchain does look good, doesn't it? Imagine it were given a little bit of color even!? Or maybe even some additional texture. And a dropshadow.

Future release features probably. We have to admit that it's a very nice blockchain just like that already.
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@tarazkp ·
lol
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@eroche ·
$0.16
On the community backed insurance idea, this is something that has been around for a long time, called mutual insurance in the UK. It's still a feature of some aspects of the market but much less than in the past. I think 100% this is the model that will first be integrated to blockchain in a big way. Think family, friends, co workers contributing to share medical bills, car insurance etc..

There are different models for traditional insurance, the pay as you go type, which you describe, where you don't take a fee depends on the demographics of the people in the group. Are there enough people to cover a large claim?

The other main way to collect money is to collect it upfront through fees and premiums then pay out as claims arise. 

The tech will not be what holds these back from being integrated to blockchain but regulation. Regulators will need to be gotten on board before any of these applications will be allowed to operate.
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@nealmcspadden ·
$0.12
In the US what you are describing as mutual insurance are called mutual aid societies. Often you’ll find mutual aid societies in risky professions or religious groups. 

Mutual insurance (in the US) is a company in which the policy holders are also the owners of the company. So the net profits of the insurance business are paid back to the policy holders as a dividend.
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@tarazkp ·
$0.12
Thanks, I have not a lot of experience with insurance companies other than being screwed over a couple times. I do know of the mutuals but, they seem more alive in idea than practice now as most appear to be much more 'regular' than community. But again, I am unsure. 

Regulators are always going to be the issue I think until a system is built that cuts them out of the conversation. 

>Are there enough people to cover a large claim?

What if it is a percentage of the tax system itself rather than being separated out? 

A solution is a long way off it seems at this point but, it is interesting to think about for potential future applications to move towards in some way.
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vote details (1)
@farq ·
$0.08
I think tax is too complex, and it's against the nature of block chain in that it is usually sovereign.

How would they cater the different deductions that relate to expenses in different occupations, etc.
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
It is just rule based isn't it?
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@farq ·
$0.27
well yeah, but rules that depend on a lot of things that won't be in the block chain. 


if you just take for example net investment income/loss.. . investment property income (rent), minus expenses (mortgage interest, repairs, water rates, council rates, agent fees, travel costs, depreciation)

whatever that net figure is, it comes off your total declared income for the year and therefore  you pay less tax out of the income ...

or vehicle expenses, where you claim your vehicle expenses depending on how many work km you do - which depends on a human identifying kilometers for work vs kilometers for personal. 

and of course all of that only applies to Australia. how would it handle your taxes when you're based in Finland? or how about someone that is american, where it doesn't matter where they live, they still have to pay US taxes regardless (though they can claim credits for taxes paid abroad from what I understand). 

and who maintains it when no doubt each year there is a tax change somewhere, in some country around the world? 

Yes it isn't beyond the realms of possibility - but the complexity in the way the tax world works today makes it almost insurmountable.  It would almost be impossible for something like this to be decentralized.
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vote details (1)
@fknmayhem ·
$0.21
It would be possible. 

Would it lead to better management is depending on much, first of all would be how are decisions made? I will merely refer to "design by community" here as one of the detractors.

One thing which would massively increase the chance of such concepts is to include a degree of ownership in the whole stake/sphere covered by each chain. It would add a degree, and also sentiment, of involvement and thus interest in making things works.

A great example for this would be what if your city took care of its own electricity production and distribution rather than relying on the mega utility companies. If your city took back its grid. Additionally to people being able to produce thanks to solar power and sell to the grid, imagine they would also hold a combined (minority) stake in the whole collective, dare I say "co-op"? A stake large enough to be influential but not large enough to decide or delay because of design by community?

In Germany, more than 200 projects/companies have been *(re)communalized* after they were privatized previously. Even a city as big as Hamburg has "taken back its grid". Another sector which has been taken back by several cities is public transportation.

AFAIK as I know none make use of blockchain (yet) but the use of blockchain (with appropriate smart contracts) would most definitely also lead to lowered operational costs.
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
I think that a core issue is the philosophy behind it. Most people seem to prefer (even though they complain) centralised authority rather than individual responsibility within community. I know the thinking borders on what many people do not want due to past events but, there is a baby out with the bathwater problem.
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@fknmayhem ·
$0.06
That's what management exists for.

Just like the public ownership stake and also dividends would/could be capped (both in total and per citizen), so could be the fees/wages and bonuses for management. That can be included in the code to never exceed x.

An alternative to dividends would be to go the Norwegian model and invest forward thinking in funds in order to eventually further increase the share of each one. 

Although I think most would prefer the short term perk of regular dividends.
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vote details (1)
@pathforger · (edited)
$0.16
You are on a correct track @tarazkp...

Now take the two elements and transmute them into one...
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
$0.09
I did add this in a comment to @eroche :)

>What if it is a percentage of the tax system itself rather than being separated out?
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vote details (1)
@pathforger ·
That is precisely what I am talking about. :c) Imagine how much health insurance could be redistributed by taxing sugar, tobacco and alcohol alone. ;c) With blockchain this and a lot more is possible.
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@snrm ·
I actually interned within the insurance industry and was looking into how blockchain could be used for claims. There are so many insurtech companies coming up now that it is definitely only a matter of time before it really starts to become a huge thing.
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@thenomadictales ·
$0.06
Precisely the reason why blockchains are future. I was following some news past week where in Indian Govt plans to move all Govt work to blockchain promising more transparency to the deeds. Also there are banks that has showed interest and will be moving onto blockchain in next 3 years.  
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root_title"Community backed insurance and tax on the Blockchain? (discussion)"
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