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Toxicity Under Fire by tarazkp

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· @tarazkp ·
$23.85
Toxicity Under Fire
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I had an interesting discussion with a psychologist today about mental health, the breakdown of communities and the grown trend of "toxic masculinity". And I think that there is a pretty good reason as to why these things are connected and general wellbeing is degrading. There are many factors involved, but here I will propose what I think is a major one.

> So let's see what you think of my theory.

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![image.png](https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/tarazkp/23tw3hCjaH5LNVPmsWLTCdeVM65QQ7h6we24GmM5xxVtg1AMxBVPNFWQrZoHGQ8WKAsFW.png)

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There has been a trend over the last decade or so of men moving to the extremes of misogyny, as represented by social influencers like Andrew Tate. But, as I see it, the Andrew Tate's of the world and the growing interest in that type of thinking, is a response to changes in culture. Many see this as a reaction of men being minimised by society, as women have become more independent and self-sufficient, making men feel less relevant, and no longer in the position of power, but I don't think this is the reason for many, or at least, I think it is another symptom.

Because simultaneously over the last few decades, men have been encouraged and often coerced into getting more in touch with their emotional side, their "feminine" side, and open up, be vulnerable, express their needs and wants and be honest with the way they feel in the moment. This is great, right? The problem is, in order for someone to be able to do that healthily, they need a supportive shoulder on the other side, and while men have been *trained* to be more emotional, women have not been trained on being the emotional support for men. 

Let me illustrate through an obscure example here. Finland survived against Russia through the winter war repelling Russian forces with professional and volunteer soldiers, and having about a 10:1 kill ratio. And since then, it is compulsory for men to go to military service and get at least basic training on the art of war. However, this doesn't really tell the whole story, because the reason the soldiers were able to fight so well, was because they were warm (the Russians were dressed for summer fighting) and they had supply of food and ammunition. The Finnish soldiers were warm because *Finnish women could knit,* and they were the ones working in the ammunition factories and doing a lot of the support tasks. My point is, that while the men are forced to do military service, very few Finnish women can do the *support tasks* that are *also required* to be successful.

> I know, it seems irrelevant.

But, men have been trained through many mechanisms over the last decades to be more open, to be more vulnerable, but they don't have the support to healthily process that emotional vulnerability. Sure, they could go to a psychologist, but the fact is that the most effective support network, is through social relationships, like in romantic partnerships and friendships, but the network isn't well established. Since forever, women have *generally* been the emotional ones, and the men the analytical ones - and this means that while the women were more accustomed to being vulnerable, the man was there as a support to listen (and often trying to suggest fixes, welcome or not) to the situation. 

>They were a shoulder to lean upon. 

But, in the modern relationships of today, few men have that shoulder when they need it. And in fact, for most men, when they have been open and vulnerable like they have been taught and encouraged to be by their partners, their partner has lost attraction for them, because the dependable man that women want to rely on, has become a vulnerable man with many issues. And because women have not been trained to deal with that kind of situation, let alone compartmentalise it so they are still able to maintain loving attraction (like most men do), the man gets left unsupported in an emotionally vulnerable position - and rejected.

> Men have been tricked?

As far as our hundreds of thousands of years of evolution are concerned, emotional vulnerability for men is pretty radical and it has happened incredibly fast. But, there wasn't a simultaneous push for women to "harden up" under these relationship circumstances, and instead they too are emotional and vulnerable, creating a lot of emotional energy, but no framework to support it. The "natural" reaction to this situation, is for the pendulum swing to the opposite extreme, where the Andrew Tate ideals reside. 

What should have happened is a simultaneous growing of emotional maturity on both sides, where men could learn to be more vulnerable, and women learn to be more supportive of emotional needs. Instead, men were encouraged to be emotionally more like women, and women were encouraged to be physically more like men, leaving an asymmetry. Yes, women can do more jobs that were once male dominated, but they haven't necessarily got much better at being able to support partners with emotional needs, essentially neglecting the needs of the people they love. 

And this is the problem with a lot of the social engineering, as while it can speed up the desired goal, like improved equality between the sexes or more women in the workplace, it also has unintended effects that could actually enhance some issues, or create new problems altogether. Yes, the "traditional roles" between men and women have changed, but the changes are at the cultural level, not at the genetic level. There are still differences between men and women, and how they *in general* process the world, as well as their expectations around romantic relationships. 

Women might want men to be more emotionally engaged, but they also want a man who can be relied on emotionally also. This is a precarious position, because society isn't setup to support both sides, in the same way that some of the runway into different careers still isn't fully set up for women to enter into male dominated roles. This doesn't mean that it can't change in time, but blaming men for not evolving fast enough, or not being able to succeed in an area where they are largely unsupported, is counterproductive - which is why many seem to be swinging the pendulum back - which is not going to work, as it will be met with strong resistance. 

What I am trying to highlight is that one of the causes for something like toxic masculinity, is a systemic problem with culture and the social structures we have built, as we expect them to deliver something they have not been designed for. And one of the reasons that so many men and especially young men might be turning toward misogynistic groups, could be because they are pushing back against a cultural ideal that they can't possibly meet, because there is not only little healthy support to reach it, the goal posts keep changing, and are always well out of reach. 

This is not a blame game about which of the sexes is right or wrong, because as I see it, it is in everyone's best interest to help everyone be better, and improve whatever tools will help them succeed personally and socially to add value to the community. It is very likely that it would help if men were more in touch with their emotions, but not in an uncontrolled way, because that leads to emotional outbursts, which can be incredibly damaging. Similarly, it would also likely help if women could control their emotions and become more supportive to encourage positive changes in others.

> It takes reflection and understanding at the individual level, to change at the cultural level well.

The biggest problem though is that we are human. And while we can change a lot about our thoughts and environment, the changes that happen at the evolutionary level are very slow indeed. In the last few decades, so much has changed radically from a cultural and technological perspective that has shifted our behaviours radically, but there is an expectation that we should have also evolved at the same speed. It is not possible. It is the same mistake that we are making with kids by putting a screen in front of their eyes as babies, and expecting them to grow up as intelligent, well-adjusted and valuable members of society, who are able to build healthy, loving, shared relationships and responsibilities with others. 

Just to finish this off, I want to make it clear that this is a reflection and theory that I have based on my own experiences in life. However, I also will leave something to think about to highlight my point about the environments we have built for social change. 

>In Finland, the summer is a few months long and the winter drops well below zero. 
What would you need to set up in order to produce fresh coconuts in Finland? 

My point is, if the climate and equipment aren't supportive of the desired growth, that growth might be impossible to achieve, no matter how many seeds you plant. With the right investments in the right equipment, it is likely possible - *but is the result worth the energy expenditure?*


Taraz
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πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 250 others
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@amigoponc ·
$0.48
Your theory is interesting and well put, I note. I think you are right to point out that the problem is not just β€˜male toxicity’, but a systemic emotional disconnect. Men are expected to be more sensitive, but without social structures or relationships to sustain them in that vulnerability. That gap generates frustration, rejection, and even cultural backlash. I also like your analogy with Finland: just as you can't grow coconuts in a cold climate without creating the right conditions, we can't expect people to progress emotionally without the right environment and support. Good thinking -finally, I fit in, heh, heh, heh-.....
πŸ‘  , , ,
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@tarazkp ·
>That gap generates frustration, rejection, and even cultural backlash.

And like any backlash in frustration and rejection, it is often overpowered, insensitive, poorly directed - and violent. And what often happens under that kind of stress, is the worst of us comes out, our base emotions take over, and our lizard brain does the thinking. 
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@aqsagu ·
This is a very intriguing perspective. Do you think societal roles have shifted faster than emotional support systems can adapt?"
πŸ‘  ,
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@amigoponc ·
$0.28
I believe that roles changed fast due to social and cultural pressure, but emotional skills and support systems did not evolve at the same pace. This creates a kind of β€˜emotional vacuum’ where neither men nor women know quite how to handle the new expectations. Men learn to be more vulnerable, but without a safe space to do so, which can lead to frustration or setbacks. And as with any big change, if real support structures are not built, as @tarazkp. Progress becomes unstable. Good question, and yes, that gap is part of the problem.
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@tarazkp ·
I think this is at least a big part of the story. And it isn't just men who suffer, women do too. Many feel forced to have a career, even though they feel a need for having children also, plus all the other pressures and desires. We only have so much time and attention to give our experience - and if we are spread too thin, how do we get the sense of success, when we are constantly failing across the board somewhere? 
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@aussieninja ·
$0.66
There is so much in here that I disagree with, I should probably write a whole post in response... but I think your theory is too simplistic and takes a number of issues and squishes them into one.

The swing towards the Andrew Tate's is because of a couple of things:

- Algorithms naturally boost controversial takes because it creates engagement.
- Tate et al, provide overly simplistic "solutions" that deliberately don't work so that more products can be sold to vulnerable young men.
- Tate et al taps into the 'main character' energy that the entertainment industry depends on... so we all might need some deprogramming here. 

The concept of men being more vulnerable makes them less attractive to women is misogyny. I personally don't think its generally true, and if there are cases where it is true its because the women have outdated cultural expectations, but most importantly the manosphere desperately want it to be true so they can sell more products to confused men.

Even though you've said you don't want to play the blame game, you have made it clear that you think women should carry the additional mental load of supporting men, but I would argue that we should leave women out of the equation entirely.  Men have much better mental health when they can be vulnerable and we need other men to support them.  Women generally work on supporting each other (either family or friends) and men should do the same. Expecting women to take on even more when they're already taking on the majority of family duties and working full time (because billionaires are siphoning all the value out of our productivity) I think provides men with an excuse to avoid doing the hard work themselves or supporting their mates.

I think the reward of men creating supportive environments for men is worth the energy expenditure for the mental health benefits, the reduction in suicide, the reduction in violent crime, etc.  The real question is, can we afford to not to?
πŸ‘  
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@tarazkp ·
>I personally don't think its generally true, and if there are cases where it is true its because the women have outdated cultural expectations

They do have outdated cultural expectations - that is my point. Just like men having to change culturally in a very rapid timeframe, women have to. Women have also been part of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, and while some might thrive under the latest conditions, many do not. I know many personally, and even in their twenties who have "outdated" cultural expectations. So, just like the algorithms push Tate, they also push cultural expectations - but what is culture? The algorithms pushing it might be pushing a minority loud voice, not the majority of people's experience. 

>Men have much better mental health when they can be vulnerable and we need other men to support them. 

Again, as I have said, the network isn't there. So it is like being thrown into the middle of the ocean and then being told you need to learn to swim. It is in the wrong order, the processes and culture aren't well aligned for people to actually be able to be vulnerable in a healthy way. 

>Expecting women to take on even more when they're already taking on the majority of family duties and working full time (because billionaires are siphoning all the value out of our productivity) I think provides men with an excuse to avoid doing the hard work themselves or supporting their mates.

In many homes, women (including my wife) don't want to give up parts of control in the home. They don't actually want it to be balanced, but they do want men to do more work. I have always done the work in the home, because I have done it since I was a child for myself. Yet - it will never be enough, even if I am doing everything. Yet, when it comes to many of the decisions concerning house and parenting, is it 50/50? Definitely not. I have less say. 

*Outdated cultural expectations* - right? 

>I think the reward of men creating supportive environments for men is worth the energy expenditure for the mental health benefits, the reduction in suicide, the reduction in violent crime, etc. The real question is, can we afford to not to?

I agree, but again, the framework isn't there. People see the benefit, but this is also what people like Tate prey on. Tate is a a poor substitute for support, but it is like children eating orange candy, thinking they are getting their dose of vitamin-C.
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@beelzael ·
Since your argument is based on experience - mine is completely different, and always has been. Even here, in Ecuador, a very macho country with all the stereotypes one could imagine, I was always able to find those women and men to support me when opening up. And it is mostly women, and generally, they're relieved to be able to talk to a man about emotions without being ridiculed or downplayed right away. The men that I can talk to that way are very few, but the ones that are there, are very valuable because they are closer to my perspective and it's easier for them to be empathetic with me.

I think the problem is in the connection-area. In order to be able to talk about emotions, and to listen to emotions, there has to be a deeper connection than just a beer at the bar. But we're taught superficiality everywhere, and most so-called influencers ride that wave, too (I never listened or watched Tate).

The other part connected to it is communication - everyone is getting worse at it, on both sides, sending and receiving. Reading emotions is not like reading headlines. You have to pay attention, and the attention span of the general adult is that of a fruit fly these days. Exaggerating a bit, but that's where it's heading.

So, while your point is very interesting and there might be truth to it, I think the root lies elsewhere.
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@bozz ·
My wife usually makes fun of me when I get a little emotional. If it's just some dumb show on TV, I get it
 If it's something serious, I know she would be there to support me. She is a very strong independent woman though.
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@tht ·
$0.42
In the new world order, the balance of power between men and women is getting closer. Women are acting like men, and on the other hand, men are not acting like men. I am worried about the future. There should be a balance of power between the sexes, as there used to be.
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@tarazkp ·
>There should be a balance of power between the sexes, as there used to be.

Yes. It doesn't mean the roles have to be the same as earlier, but they have to be balanced. We should be working toward what makes us stronger together, rather than trying to beat the other side.
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@toluwanispecial ·
$0.65
This is really something to think about. As a woman, I have always heard that men should open up more and be in touch with their emotions, and I agree with that. However, i have also seen how, when some men do open up, they don’t always get the support they need, even from people close to them. I never really thought about how unbalanced that emotional shift might be.

Another important aspect to look at is that society isn't really fair to men as there are a lot of responsibility on their neck. I don't know about there, though, but the rate at which our men die needed to study. When it comes to crime, they are the one you see mostly. Most of these men engage in illegal stuff just to make sure their family is well fed. Although, I'm not in support of crime.

 There are a lot of landlady here that their husbands are gone. Society expects too much from men, which is why they are often mentally broken down. There should be a support system from men, particularly from their partners. 
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vote details (3)
@amigoponc ·
$0.29
Your perspective shows sensitivity and balance in recognising the complexity of emotions and responsibilities in men and women. It is valuable that you invite us to think about the real support needed by those who open their hearts beyond stereotypes.

The times we live in today are very fast-paced. What is today is tomorrow, who knows. The future is certainly uncertain.
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@tarazkp ·
> Society expects too much from men, which is why they are often mentally broken down. 

I don't know if it is "too much" but it is too much given the current conditions. Some men manage in them well, many do not - it is the same for any skill - it isn't easy for everyone to be good at it, and even with support, will still struggle. How can we expect people to beat their evolution, without even the simplest of support from the people who love them?
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@toluwanispecial ·
Hmm, love these days is mostly transactional, even in marriage and relationships. The support system is low or not even available. I think the responsible men are the ones going through these crises the most since they always wanted to satisfy their urge and ego of masculinity. 
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@videoaddiction ·
$0.40
As women have achieved economic independence in recent decades, I think men has lost its dominant role in society/family.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
Yes, but I think a lot of women, despite their complaints, also don't want to lost control of the home. Women have nearly always controlled "home economics" even when they weren't working. They want men to do household chores, but they don't want to give up any of the household power. 
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@videoaddiction ·
A woman also wants to control her man :)
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