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Is it time for a change? by therealwolf

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com
· @therealwolf · (edited)
$20.96
Is it time for a change?
![image.png](https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/therealwolf/AsfPRVXQ-image.png)

---

**Global Reward Pool:** All HIVE stakeholders share a single reward-pool and upvote/downvote to determine how it's distributed, creating conflict & drama along the way, making it a difficult flora for onboarding.

**Individual Reward Pool:** All HIVE stakeholders have their own reward-pool, where the decision how it's spent or if it's spent at all on other people (otherwise it's simply token-based inflation to the stakeholder) is only determined by the stakeholder. No downvotes. No self-votes. No "gaming-the-system". No abuse.


*Implementation Example:* Ben has 10k HIVE and gets 5 HIVE staking-rewards per day at 100% reward-pool percentage. Every day, the reward-pool is being reset to 100% and the staking-rewards are being paid out.

Since Ben gave some votes/tips/donations and reduced his percentage to 70%, he only gets 3.5 HIVE (5 * 0.7 HIVE), while the other 1.5 HIVE is being distributed to the other people.

---

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👎  , ,
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vote details (336)
@abh12345 ·
https://hive.blog/steem/@tarazkp/locking-stake-for-100-passive-income-improving-content-helping-apps

Don’t TL;DR me 😛

Lock some, play with some.
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@abitcoinskeptic ·
$0.05
I think we should immediately reduce all inflation by 50%. Also, we can take away that 10% going to the Hive Proposal System (DAO) funding when we decided how to put the 65million Hive into it (this can probably cover it for several years). We can give the 10% to SP holders in the meantime. It can be recovered from the reward pool or whatever later when necessary.

I just feel that those in favor of reduced inflation have practically no voice. But it kinda makes sense given people are used to governments and public spending being out of control in nations...so why not Hive, too?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@fbslo · (edited)
I agree, at least we need to burn downvoted rewards instead of returning them to the reward pool. Also, witness rewards are too high (top witnesses making 2k/month, even while the price of running servers (primary, backup, seed node) is less than 500$/month). 

Also, DAO will get over 83M HIVE in the next few years. If funds are converted in 10 years, it's still almost 23k HIVE/day. We could burn almost 1/3 of the supply!
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@ammonite · (edited)
Do you mean like Whaleshares where you get a daily reward that you can decide to distribute as you see fit?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@therealwolf ·
I don't see a reason to take anything whaleshares did as a way of determining whether that idea is successful. Would you say social media is failing because MySpace failed? Of course not. 😄
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@ammonite ·
I actually didn't mean my comment to come off as a negative slight against Whaleshares. I actually like that they tried something different. The jury is still out, I do see many people tipping posts but I also see many just checking in each day to claim their reward and give out about how the system works. 
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@moeknows ·
But it is sort of like whaleshares, right? We can certainly look to them as lessons learned. 
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@antisocialist ·
### Still facilitating abuse, some people never change, huh?
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@cryptoknight12 ·
I would never upvote so I get 100% of staking rewards. Wouldn't greedy people favor from this idea?
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@cwow2 ·
Wouldn't people just not vote then? To get the 100% reward pool?
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@therealwolf ·
There's a difference between voting to show that you like something and voting to reward someone; the latter will still be used, even if you will earn less and most importantly: it will mean much more when you do get rewards.

Do you really think that appreciator & upmewhale and the other curation-snipers are just so great at finding content or are they voting anything that fits their parameters so they can maximize their curation rewards?
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@dalz ·
Its all good trying and rethinking things.

Do you think this will have an effect at all? Sometimes I feel we are just in the general crypto boat.

We had the EIP that is in favor of stakeholders in october and not even a year have passed since then.

What could improve things maybe is acctualy having a great app with super easy sign in and a great web page. Although for sure not a guaranaty for anything.

Also without zero incentive to vote, I really dont see it why would anyone do it. 

It might be just as good to just remove the infation for author/curators and redisign the staking rewards. But to do this, SMTs are probably needed.
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@therealwolf · (edited)
EIP was a different direction; it improved the symptoms but for Hive to be truly healthy & thriving, more drastic changes are needed. Even if individual reward-pools aren't the solution, I want to promote at least the idea that a global rewards-pool is not the way to go.

Also: no "great app with super easy sign-in and a great web page" that wants to attract millions of users wants to deal with monetary downvotes & the toxicity these bring. On the other hand, tipping is something that can be easily implemented and which is "neutral".
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@dalz ·
I like the idea of individual pools ... the next thing would be how to distribute it:
- just as staking reward, (no auth/CR), 
- optional tipping (what you mentioned here)
- mandatory tipping in order to get your reward (something like now  but from your rewards)
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@definethedollar ·
$0.08
Not sure why you’re asking, it’s a fight you seem to be winning...these 135 words took twenty bucks worth out of the pool.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@therealwolf ·
And? 
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@dmilliz ·
I think what is holding back hive is that businesses don’t know where to start with hive.  Don’t know who to go to for the information that would be valuable for them.  For instance if I told an online magazine they could reward their users with their own token ( or hive ) on their website and they ask “so how do I get started ?”  I can’t just say “go to the business integration section here”  

But if that same magazine could go and start their token with their credit card and then run a plug in to integrate hive and their token on their web magazine it would be an easy process. The plug in could send them up sells and info> “hey , did you know if you stake hive you can blah blah >hey did you know that you can delegate hive/ your token to community members and have them do work on your behalf? Here is how it works....

The point I’m trying to make is there isn’t anything for businesses to **easily** buy into that would be of value to them and their customers .....yet.

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@edb ·
$0.04
No, thanks. Stop fiddling with incentives. That's the part that works. That's not what's holding Hive back. 
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@therealwolf ·
$0.03
So, what's holding Hive back then?
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@borislavzlatanov ·
I think lack of more community features is the number 1 thing. Give communities more features, more abilities to set up their home however they want it to work and look. Then communities will have the ability to also play with rewards and tweak how rewards are distributed so as to work well for the particular community. This needn't necessarily depend on SMTs, a lot of it can be done now, I think. 

Talk to communities and they will tell you what features they need to grow their community and attract new people. Try it and see! They will tell you what they need.
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@eirik ·
$0.52
What do yo think about Reddit's awards?
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@therealwolf ·
That's how it could work on an interface level. Just put thresholds on percentages and combine those with awards or smth else.
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@elsiekjay ·
What a Great way to lose the few remaining creators.Hive has much bigger problems than this. 
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@enrique89 ·
I do not understand much, but the only thing I can say is that if it does not work well as a global form, it is because the individuals do not. So the problem would be the individual?
properties (22)
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@fbslo ·
Why would anyone give away the personal reward pool? 

Content is total shit on STEEM, and yet, Hive price is less than 1 cent higher. It seems like coin price is not determined by blogging and contend much.
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@therealwolf ·
Maybe the price is being kept artificially up ;)
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@fluffcloud ·
HP could generate HIVE pegged voting credit stakeholder could spend for either upvoting or downvoting whenever they want. Voting would immediately credit 50% of the vote's value to voter's HIVE balance as curation reward and the other 50% would increase/decrease content's author reward and be credited to the author once curation window has closed
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@geekgirl ·
$0.08
Will not work.
👍  ,
👎  
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vote details (3)
@therealwolf ·
$0.14
ofc it will
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@geekgirl ·
$0.71
Well, let me explain what I mean and why I think it won't work. First let's outline some facts:

1. Reward distribution system on Hive is unique and can't really be seen elsewhere. Which also makes it unintuitive for any new users. That's why we have learning curve to understand how upvotes/downvotes work. You don't see this anywhere else.
2. It is a brilliant system if the original assumptions took place. Such as, stakeholders/investors would favor long term larger returns instead of short term smaller returns. But our history and stakeholders behavior proved it wrong, most choose/chose short term smaller returns over long term larger returns.
3. Long term larger returns mean price appreciation of Hive because of its use case, user growth, and user-base. Any stakeholder/investor would have higher financial benefits if Hive improved/improves in price rather than inflation, curation, or author rewards. 
4. Our long history has proven stakeholders/investors would prefer short term gains such as lease rent, bid-bots, self-votes, alt-votes, circle-votes, etc that generated Hive/Steem based returns but didn't really translate into price increase on the underlying asset.
5. Price did increase several times in the past following chaotic Bitcoin bull runs, which created an illusion of price increase regardless of the fundamental growth of the platform. Hence, price collapsed ever since. 
6. EIP hard fork did accomplish to fix some of the issues. Bid-bots are gone or changed their ways to more user centric curations. That has been a big improvement. There is tremendous amount of evidence that bid-bots played a huge role in exodus of users and understanding of the platform by the crypto influencers. Many of them cite the bid-bot abuse to the failure of Steem.

Now to your points. 

Global Reward pool is still a unique way of token distribution, that nobody has been able to replicate yet. It creates an illusion of blockchain creating value out of nowhere and rewards talents, authors, and average users. 

Any token distribution system will be games. Hive/Steem has been for years. EIP did brings some hope, and Hive fork even strengthened that hope that promise of decentralized web Is possible. 

Global Reward Distribution due to its mysterious nature kinda works. But it requires stakeholders/investors to put in some work to participate in short term gains such as curations rewards via rewards distribution system. But most larger stakeholders/investors would have much time to participate and hence wouldn't participate in short term gains. However, all stakeholder are still participating in long term larger games that would reflect in appreciation of the underlying asset - Hive. 

Participating in short term gains requires time and effort. That's why we have proof of brain. Those who participate in proof of brain can also accumulate short term curation rewards in addition to potential long term returns as price keeps going up.

***Downvote drama is a myth. It doesn't involve most of the participants of Hive. It only involves tiny minority of people that can be counted by hands.*** I am not saying drama is good or bad. All I am saying is there isn't enough problem there that may cause issues with onboarding or people leaving. Those dramas only involve the loud ones. Most authors go under-rewarded, and they don't even make an issue about it.

***Now to your core solution - Individual Reward Pool*** and why it wouldn't work. 

I appreciate you coming up with an outside the box solution. We do need a solution to improve the system that increases the user-growth. User-growth is the only metric, in my opinion that really matters for a long term success. 

However, your solution won't work and actually would take us backwards. Individual reward pool will lead us to a tremendous amount of abuse. Going back to the game theory, you will see most stakeholders/investors to reserve to passive short term gains rather than long term increase of the value of the underlying asset that is Hive. Everybody will defer to another to deal with the hard and time consuming work of ***proof-of-brain*** to reward authors. 

Why would you want to spend time curating and rewarding authors when you can pocket all the gains yourself. Without downvotes there will be no consequences. Without self-votes, users can easily upvote alt accounts as they wish. Circle-votes will actually look more attractive in this situation. 

Bottomline majority will focus maximizing on short-term gain, not long-term growth of wealth and the platform.

Lastly, Hive primarily being a social platform, emotions will prevail over logic. In those cases, rational financial incentive won't matter at all. This has been proven many many times.

I can keep going and going on this topic, I hope this will suffice.
👍  , , , ,
👎  
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vote details (6)
@hivebuzz ·
Congratulations @therealwolf! You have completed the following achievement on the Hive blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

<table><tr><td><img src="https://images.hive.blog/60x70/http://hivebuzz.me/@therealwolf/replies.png?202007271150"></td><td>You got more than 6250 replies. Your next target is to reach 6500 replies.</td></tr>
</table>

<sub>_You can view [your badges on your board](https://hivebuzz.me/@therealwolf) And compare to others on the [Ranking](https://hivebuzz.me/ranking)_</sub>
<sub>_If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word_ `STOP`</sub>


To support your work, I also upvoted your post!


**Do not miss the last post from @hivebuzz:**
<table><tr><td><a href="/hivebuzz/@hivebuzz/ranking-update1"><img src="https://images.hive.blog/64x128/https://i.imgur.com/Fr0BYh2.png"></a></td><td><a href="/hivebuzz/@hivebuzz/ranking-update1">HiveBuzz Ranking update - New key indicators</a></td></tr></table>

###### Support the HiveBuzz project. [Vote](https://hivesigner.com/sign/update_proposal_votes?proposal_ids=%5B%22109%22%5D&approve=true) for [our proposal](https://peakd.com/me/proposals/109)!
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@joooi ·
GREAT AND KEEP IT BROTHER. THE TIME IS MONEY, SAME SO WISE WORDS. THANKS YOU FOR SHARING BRO, WHEN I SEE YOUR POST, I AM REMENBERED FOR A KEEP THE TIME. NICE BROTHER

- ALLOW ME TO BLOCK YOUR POSTING. MAYBE THIS COULD BE ABLE TO REMEMBER I WILL IMPORTANT TAKING GOOD TIME THAT IN THE WORLD OR OTHERWISE.

Me @joooi
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@joythewanderer ·
Interesting and effective. Sounds difficult to implement on current chain though?
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@kasna ·
I choose you as a witness, thank you sir, I hope you can be a good witness. 😍
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@lucylin ·
$0.06
Ah, some common sense - at last!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@marki99 ·
I like it but this brings up the question of downvotes. Are they possible with this model? If not, what happens to bidbots?
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@therealwolf · (edited)
No, downvotes will not be needed and vote-trading in any form will not work (incl bid-bots). Any stakeholder will generate the same amount of HIVE and some of that can be given away into the ecosystem, without actually taking something away.

This will also get rid of self-voting, sock-puppets, and any other form of trying to game the reward pool.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@marki99 ·
I see. But we get rid of self upvotes by making the default a self upvote right? So if you do nothing you get your rewards and that's that. 

It definitely is simpler that the complex system we have right now, and probably better. But big changes are always scary. 
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@nathanmars ·
$0.78
> No downvotes. No self-votes. No "gaming-the-system". No abuse

At least if we can make Hive Protocol less of these things then we can move forward together faster 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@nrg ·
hmm yes, this would be a shot in the dark for sure.
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@ocupation ·
$0.52
I would probably support anything that'll move us forward. 
Status quo is killing me. The system doesn't have to be complicated to work.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@onthewayout ·
$0.07
The only difference that I see on your proposal with the current system is the removal of downvotes. In the current system if you setup several alt-accounts and only vote on them you are essentially paying yourself your share of the reward pool. With "Individual Reward Pools" the incentive shifts from farming with posts to farming with stake without providing any useful work in exchange to the network.

Downvoting stops (or rather mitigates) none useful farming of the reward pool. Removing it institutionalizes self-vote farming by converting it to farming by staking...the network would feel a lot more *ponzi-esc* (if that is even a word).

I am not saying that removing the reward pool would be a bad thing in and of itself but something of value has to be given to the network in exchange for a portion of the block rewards.

👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@resiliencia ·
$0.83
I like the idea.
Also the publish0x way of tipping looks really cool.
You have X number of votes per day, you should give to other at least 20% of the power.

But I would prefer something simpler, I think we should really change the "POWER UP" name to staking. Everyone in crypto knows what STAKING is. And then yes, you get x% of the rewards regardless of how good you are discovering content.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@therealwolf ·
$0.04
Regardless of the name, it should be more straightforward for people to make money with their HIVE. Expecting exchanges to power-up their stake and delegate it to 3rd party curation service is ludicrous. 
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@resiliencia ·
Agree 100%.
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@revisesociology · (edited)
$0.03
Wouldn't that just kill off blogging? Why would anyone vote for anyone? And thus why would anyone write anything? 

I'm not saying that would necessarily be a bad thing btw. 

Maybe we should try getting rid of the 5 minute curation penalty first? See how that affects distribution of rewards. It would at least be interesting to try first! 
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@simplegame ·
To build a good layer 2 and a variety of Dapp's, we need to be able to reward hive for activities that are not "blogging"
👍  
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vote details (1)
@revisesociology ·
I think we're working towards that with side-tokenisation. 
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@therealwolf · (edited)
> Wouldn't that just kill off blogging? Why would anyone vote for anyone? And thus why would anyone write anything?

First of all, the new mechanism would have to be separated from the classical "voting" or at least you should be able to "like" something, without giving it rewards. 

Blogging will obviously not be killed, because the incentive is still there: a stakeholder on Hive could decide that he/she wants to have less inflationary revenue (as he/she already has a big stake & wants to see it grow in value) and instead gives some of it away; so the bloggers still want to participate in the ecosystem. The only difference is where it comes from: the global reward pool or the individual reward pool.

> Maybe we should try getting rid of the 5 minute curation penalty first? See how that affects distribution of rewards. It would at least be interesting to try first!

The outcome will be an even bigger screw for human curators and a big win for automatization, which I'm pretty sure 70%+ of Hive voting is running on.

Instead, curation would be removed altogether with the introduction of individual rewards pool; this would also get rid of the need for self-voting or the need to police the reward-pool; which is a big onboarding killer IMO. Also, who's policing those who are policing the system?

Personally, I don't think it's anybody's business who I want to reward or why. Obviously, in an open system where we all take from the common goods, there need to be ways to protect it; but we've clearly seen that this will always end in drama - just take a look at @cryptofinally.
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@revisesociology ·
I like the idea that new system would reduce the 'negative influence' of Whales without the need to police them - that would be welcomed by me.   

It's just a very large change, difficult to get my head around! 
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@tarazkp ·
$0.07
I still don't see why the average stakeholder would give any of their potential value to anyone else. There might be a few out there who would try, but most would simply take all the rewards for themselves. Which would make it something like this:
https://hive.blog/steem/@tarazkp/locking-stake-for-100-passive-income-improving-content-helping-apps
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@tobetada ·
Indeed, this is something that we need to try: remove the 5 min curation penalty. It could go either way, but definitely we should test it!
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@rubenalexander ·
I like the daily reset because it fosters daily interaction. And making the most of your reward pool. 
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@scorer ·
There are already STEEM based forks that works like that - user is given his staking-rewards once per day/week (depending on blockchain) and there is 99.9% spam free space.

The thing is that the same 99.9% of investors do not bother themselves by curating or posting anything. You will have another issue to solve - how to motivate people to do something else other than getting rewards.

Since those blockchains are spam free, the system force users to come and get their rewards daily / weekly or else they disappear.

Now we have illusion that blockchain is valuable because it is alive.
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@therealwolf ·
Who gives a f*ck about other forks? Whenever this argument is brought up, people seem to miss the point that there are simply no users on these forks, nor any real innovation or quality apps/frontends.
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@steevc ·
$0.10
I think we have bigger problems than this. We need to get people actually using Hive as we are failing at that. They are not holding back due to esoteric issues of rewards distribution. First they need to hear about it and when they join we need votes going to those who add value. Just supporting the old guard will get us nowhere. 
👍  , , , ,
👎  
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vote details (6)
@iliyan90 ·
$0.03
Completely agree with you on that.
Whales should be looking into supporting more new people and also I think for the platform will be great if all users keep their stakes/rewards so they can bring more value to their friends and followers.
I observations so far is that many people have been supported from Whales from more then year or two and they barely hold any Hive at all, just selling all of it to the exchange to make living from it by doing 1 vlog or a blog, as for vloggers I’ve noticed that many girls are just support for that and again none of them hold any Hive to bring value back in the system.

Namaste 🙏 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@scorer ·
I believe there are some other interests under the hood.
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@steevc ·
Self-interest does not serve Hive well. Without growth it will struggle.
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@therealwolf ·
> We need to get people actually using Hive as we are failing at that.

Apps will not want to deal with toxicity and downvotes.
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@steevc ·
Any system allowing for anonymity will have toxic users as they can hide behind their keyboards. Downvotes can be abused, but we need them to make abuse less profitable. It's more about perception and understanding that Hive is not like centralised platforms.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tobetada ·
I don't know if I understand it right, but that so...
I don't know if I understand it right, but that sounds like it's a complete disincentive to engage with the community if by voting your rewards diminish? 

 Posted using [Dapplr](https://app.dapplr.in/YiLHhyhT6CtXcr7t9)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@therealwolf ·
Votes would have to be separated from tipping; or rather the new way of voting would be far more like tipping and liking a post could do just that: liking (without any rewards behind it).

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@tobetada ·
So you could just "like" a post (in which everyone's like has an equal weight and a like also determines its trending position on Hive) and also upvote/tipp it (which decreases one's personal reward pool for the day and transfer's some of it to the post that is being upvoted/tipped)? 

Do we have something like "Hive Beta" where ideas like this could be tested? I feel that such a radical change to the ecosystem should first get tested to see how it works out. But I agree, we still need to figure out the fundamentals as the system still doesn't work optimally.
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@vlemon · (edited)
What about actually using our traffic and views to generate ad revenues in order to buyback tokens and keep the price at least flat?

Such as $BAT is doing or @leofinance.

This would make sense from an economic point of view
👍  
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vote details (1)
@eirik ·
This, yeah.
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@therealwolf ·
On a 2nd layer, sure. I'm referring here to the 1st layer, the HIVE blockchain.
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@niallon11 ·
Who is running the hive.blog site at the moment. I have been stressing since the start that we need buy pressure against the token. If ads con be integrated onto a community interface like that and a buy/burn programme to go with it that will be a start.

Apps, tokens and users will be the main driver over the long term but we need to survive long enough and have a token price high enough to get there.

If we get the price we get the users. Then more users will raise the price. Ads are a good place to start. 
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@vlemon ·
Sure, but we might have to change the 1st layer because the 2nd layer is not generating enough buying pressure.

So if we manage to get buying pressure (from ads, sponsored posts...) we could maybe keep the 1st layer as it is.

Just a thought. Thanks for your answer 😀
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@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx · (edited)
Maybe a choice when you power up, you can get a fixed interest rate but you don't get curation rewards and is slightly less roi than curation as you have to.put the effort in, no interest rate but you can curate and maybe a third option where you can choose/split how much stake you want for a fixed return and curation.

Maybe make downvoting only affect your rep? And make it not stake weighted so one downvote only equals 1 vote rather than a big staker putting off someone. Would show the majority view of someone's rep as its misleading if one big staker can influence it that much.

I also like the idea of an increasing roi based on how long you have powered up for, maybe have the option to have the roi be made liquid rather than powered up, prevents people doing big power downs and having a negative affect on other users.
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