I fully approve the OP's message!

Thank for good opinion bro. 

Προσωπικη μου γνωμη ειναι οτι πλεον τα bot ειναι μερος του συστηματος για το steemit, για τους νεους χρηστες εαν δεν εχουν δυνατους φιλους ή 1-2 bitcoin για να ανεβασουν steem power ειναι πολυ δυσκολο να εξελιγχθουν μεσα στην πλατφορμα του steemit, το steemit θα αρχισει να απειλειται πραγματικα οταν νεες πλατφορμες πχ akasha μπουν στο παιχνιδι, τοτε και μονο τοτε ισως να γινουν συστημικες αλλαγες προς το καλυτερο αλλιως δυσκολα θα επιβιωσει η πλατφορμα... Ετσι τουλαχιστον το βλεπω εγω σαν νεος χρηστης...

Phenomenal article. I hate bid bots and for the longest have felt my view is on the fringe. Your post and it's support tells me that perhaps my view is not such a novelty after all. Keep it up good buddy.

I have to disagree on many points. The first thing is, that I don't pity any whale - the only whales I have ever encountered are either self-righteous or passive and I don't see much support at all. The only thing I see is self-proclaimed "reward pool rape" Robin Hoods that flame other people and use said upvote bots to push their hatred posts with amounts that no smaller fish can come up with and therefore doing not only reward pool rape themselves, but also taking away the ROI for paid upvotes from anyone else who bid in that round. This is the real harm being done in two ways. 
The other point is, that if you as a minnow find a bot with a positive ROI (that is not overtaken in the last second by some hater/flamer/spammer) you are also providing good curation rewards for your real followers. I love it, when my real followers and readers get also a decent curation reward.
The third point is, that there is no real way to get seen without a decent upvote bot strategy. It's a fairy tale that consistent good content makes you seen automatically. Yes, good content *is* the key, but it doesn't guarantee that you get seen at all and the more people that come to Steemit, the more difficult it will get. The best content in the world is useless, if you don't get the traction to kick a post off.
My solution would be a different one. I would forbid whales to use upvote bots and only let smaller fish use them. This would make the whole system a lot fairer and prevent the three huge damages the flag-flame-spam Robin Hoods do. And yes, I know, that this won't happen or is not even possible, but it's as legit as to say "don't use bots at all".
That's my take on it....

I really came here to read the two posts that you have recommended. I have not even started reading them yet but I was able to learn a LOT of things from the conversation @trumpman and @scandinavianlife had. I reached this post to understand if using bots will be helpful for us but the comments in this posts covered a lot of information. Thanks to @trumpman, @scandinavianlife, @ruth-girl, @erodedthoughts. Your comments were informative for me.

Thanks for sharing good post,
@trumpman

I had used bidbots too. Then, I stopped?!

Why, because I believe I can grow here organically. Since im only 79 days old,  i think I have nothing to complain to with regards to the earnings I get. 

Life is beautiful, especially now that there is steemit :)

Hm. You definitely make some valid points here.
As I already told you in a comment at one of your other posts, I don't think bots are in general a bad idea. They can be really helpful for new users, who want to grow fast and produce high-quality content (I do think, without shame, that I am currently doing this), just because they are enabling them with more visibility and attract new users.
Most people just dont want to search endless pages for new content - they mainly focus onto the hot/trending pages and that's it.

I do like the work, I am doing here and I want to add more value for everyone who reads my articles, but to reach a broader audience as a minnow bots can achieve that for you. For me it's like an investment: I may not even get more financial value out of the bid, but I am more visible and can attract new followers, who are interacting with my content and get some value out of it.

For example: There was this one guy today, who told me about his fight with addiction and of becoming clean. In the end he wrote 
<blockquote>This was a interesting reading. Made me more focused about how i should focus and that it is important for me to dont stop making creative projects only because i am sober.</blockquote>

I gave him another way of looking at his own life and this was more rewarding than any bot could ever do - but to get to this point, my post needed to be visible and that's where the bot most probably helped.

Sure, I would like to reach the point, at which my community is large enough, that my articles are hot/trending without the use of bots, but it is a long way to get there. I will always produce high-quality content, I am not here for quick money and cheap gains, but I will also use the available tools to make my content available for a broader audience :)

> Now if you ask me, the only legit use I think voting bots should have is to reward posts by other people as a gift or to counter truly unfair flags.

Yes.

When I was a newbie I got a boost from another user by using a bot (and his SBD) to give me the lift for one of my articles. 

He did that because his vote was back then only one or two cents worth. Wouldn't there have been the opportunity to do that for the small fish this interaction would never have happened and maybe I wouldn't have to get to know the other user in the way our relationship started. 

From my point of view, there is no general answer, no general "how to". All interactions are single cases which must be observed and evaluated in their single form. I myself commented an abuser because I thought of him as a spammer and greedy person. As we are many people with many eyes and also a diverse sense of fairness we all are the watchers and witnesses of this platform. Which is good. 

To use a bot to get an uplift as a minnow: I find that okay. I don't do that and I also didn't do that often in the past. I must admit that the interaction itself is somehow boring to me and I am not at all a number cruncher. But I support a small bot through which you can also pick a friend or a user to let him/her get something out of it.

Bots give multiple draws to newbies. ROI and Rep. Bots voting heavily on a low rep account will provide that account with a large increase in Rep. Why? Because these bots are getting huge Rep simply for voting on thousands of posts per week. So high rep voting on low rep = big rep boost. That's probably why @scandinavianlife has such a high Rep with so few organic votes and so many followers.

Let's also keep in mind the chicken and the egg argument. The whales were the ones who started these bots "to help minnows". Right? Now you're blaming the minnows for using the bots to benefit themselves.

I don't use bots. I've been on Steemit for 8? 9? Months and I used bot services fewer than 5 times, and at least one of those uses was paid to promote another person's post when I didn't have the voting power to support their post myself. Oh, and that was probably back when I was on the platform for a month or two and bots started taking over Steemit. I fought against the bots early, then realized nobody cared, so I stopped. Trust me, I got a lot of responses from dolphins, whales, and minnows at the time arguing that bots were helpful to minnows and not just broadening the gap between minnows and whales...

Good luck in your fight, but I don't see the voting bots going anywhere. Hell, they have a website telling you which are most profitable now! You'll have better luck focusing on removing the scammers than you will getting rid of the bots.

Spoiler alert, scammers are just as hard to get rid of...

I'm not going to refute anything you say, because technically none of it is wrong, but what you have here is a typical prisoner dilemma if you're familiar with game theory.

Bot use is so entrenched that unless you have a significant SP holding, or know someone that does that will support you, it isn't really possible to get anywhere. You can post the best content in the world and you'll be lucky if 5 people see it.

Content discovery is lacking and that is why there's room for these bots. yes it's easy money but it's also one of the only ways to get any sort of exposure.

The debate for and against automated bots will continue. To lay this to final rest, we need some form of data-driven evidence to drive home the point.

That would be beyond mere personal opinions or hearsays.

Personally, as a newbie, I think it's difficult pushing your best posts to the right audience. Sometimes, at the beginning, you often get discouraged, and tend to find other innovative and legit ways to get around that.

For me, this is a serious problem and I am certainly open to learning from more experienced Steemians here. Thanks

Bots, are a tool that we all agree it is abused. And we will also agree that most bots are garbage. 

So bots are used for bad. And yet they can be used for good. 

It is a unique form of advertisement that not only gives you exposure but also pays you back. And for the latter part it is being abused. 

And it gives you exposure in a predictable and systematic way. This way you can gradually grow your audience and blog and have an extra monetary incentive to put those extra hours until a bot vote is no longer relevant or needed. And all that combined with massive interaction in the platform, commenting , helping out and all the good stuff. 

I'd rather depend on a system than a generous vote that may or may not come. I'd rather get a vote from big or small fish that actually likes my content and not because they think I need it.  

The way to go with bots is not ban them but push a hard as we can to improve service and try as much to mitigate abusers. 

Or we could suggest another system. But whatever system we suggest I am afraid that there will always be abusers. And I am also pretty certain that those with big money will get the biggest piece of the pie whatever we do. 

These are my two steem cents , hope I have contributed to the conversation with another perspective.

I agree with your opinion that Steemit is a good experiment and in the end and it will become good about human nature.

Thanks for sharing ..

Personally, I have always seen using 'bot' as cheating... Because steemit  to me is about assisting people in here to see life the way it is. And what's life, than doing the right thing, being consistent about it even if you don't get noticed at the initial part of it, believing it will pay off one day.
But with 'bot', that aim is lost..
All it teaches is :- do what ever you like, good or bad, through a few cash into it and blow..
Well, in secondary school I was taught that there's advantages and disadvantages for everything.. so I know bot has both the good and the bad side depending on the user.. but if the disadvantages of it is bigger than its advantages, I believe it's not good..
Good things don't mostly  come easy in life. So don't just rush to go bot-up you post simply because you dropped 20post with good content and didn't get noticed by a whale or get a big reward. There's time for everything. 
Well, am not even a month old in steemit, so what do I know... In just feel it's not fair

This must be one of the few genuinely informative discussions yet, in my limited experience. No mud-slinging, just facts and opinions. Thanks for taking the time to post this @trumpman, and to all the responders (respondents?), it has been extremely helpful. To bot or not, when you're new, is a confusing dilemma. Thanks to you all, I shall not. :)

Yeah, the only bidbot I use at this point is @treeplanter on other people's posts.

Nice post men. 

  Resteemed

### ***Resteemed!***

I think this behavior serves as a test of Steemit's ability to resist geting exploited and might uncover some design flaws, which in the end could be fixed and improve Steemit overall. But then again, people will always seek new ways to trick the system.

I like your view that Steemit is a mirror of human nature. There are those who try to cheat the system who get short term gains, and there are those who keep pushing out great content and get rewarded organically for that, which is way more profitable in the long run. If we look at it the other way, with humanan nature being a mirror of Steemit, and considering how well Steemit works even with upvote bots, I think humanity has a bright future.

I include friends, family, and people that I personally know in my @steemvoter . I occasionally "promote" a post. This is the way to go, as it voids the Steem, ergo increases the value of the remaining steem. I encourage promotion, but it is a bit like the "prisoner's dillehma."

That's an interesting point of view which I hadn't considered as of yet. So thank you. 

I have used drotto quite a few times and actually it's not worth it, recently i've been considering that it makes my post look a bit dirty, especially with professional content. 

This post just made me decide to give dr otto the kick in the bum. I won't use him again, it's not even "financially" worth it.

I'm still fairly new to the game, and got used to using it. give him a few steem cents and see how he votes me. But then he leaves a shitty little comment, thanking me! I bet he's thankful!

The only time the bots are worth using is when you want to upvote someone with very good content but you dont have the steem power. However there are other bots much better (can't recall which ones now, but im not even mentioning them on this post, i'm just bad mouthing dr otto haha)

Thanks @trumpman, onwards and upwards!

Bots do nothing but make easy money.
First, you just pay them your hard earned SBD instead of powering up and getting a stronger personal vote.
Second, there is no quality evaluation in those votes, eg. you can just upvote a meme for 100$ if you can afford the right bid.
On the other hand, there are some votes and users who offer free services for minnows (totally free or asking for a minimum upvote on specific posts), which can help noobs make a difference in their payouts. But those services IMO are harmless and aiming at boosting new users.

The point is, we need to find the right balance and educate ourelves ethically in order to be able to discern when it is "fair" to use services and when not.