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Regulating Curation on SteemIt by yintercept

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· @yintercept ·
$8.90
Regulating Curation on SteemIt
Apparently there is a movement among the whales to increase the ratio of curation rewards to author rewards from 25%/75% to 50%/50% .

The thought behind this action is that increasing the curation rewards would increase curation activity.

I believe this thinking is incorrect. The reason I think this is wrong is because curation activity is currently driven by the refresh rate of the curation rewards. The curation rewards refresh at 20% a day. I check SteemD before and after each curation session.  Replace my handle with your handle to see your page.

https://steemd.com/@yintercept

This is what my curation rewards looked like after an active curation session.

![vp.png](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmRmSotknBRBg7kouMQKdytownjswLcBUHSpVtXzuhuabq/vp.png)

If you log in once a day; you might as well curate until the bar is at 80%. I guess if you are taking a three day vacation, you might as well drop 30 votes.

Since curation activity is regulated by the refresh rate of comment, changing curation/author ratio will not have a big effect on curation activity. The only effect it will have is to reduce the rewards received by authors.

The amount of curation rewards an account receives is determined by their STEEM POWER. If you peek at the wallets of plankton accounts, you will see that plankton accounts usually only get a penny or two curation rewards a week. Whales get huge curation rewards. 

Increasing the ratio of curation/author rewards will dramatically reduce the ability of plankton accounts (new accounts) to make money.

If you go into SteemD, you will notice on the right hand column two rows called curation rewards and posting rewards.

```
Curation rewards    507
Posting rewards  27,966
```

SteemD doesn't tell us the units. The ratio seems correct for my account. Changing from 25/75 to 50/50 should double the curation reward to 1014, but it would reduce the curation rewards by a third to 18644.

If I understand these figures on SteemD correctly, under a 50/50 regime, I would see my rewards drop from 28473 to 19658. A drop of 8815 rewards.

I have made an effort front-run rewards. The  ratio of curation to post rewards for most small accounts is lower than my ratio.

I visited the SteemD account for several bots. Bots tend to receive a large ratio of curation rewards to post rewards.

So the change from 25/75  to 50/50 would have an effect of reducing earnings of small accounts by about 30%  and redistribute this income to whales and bots.

I don't like it. Since the curation activity is determined by the refresh rate of voting power, the change will not have a positive effect on curation activity. All that the change will do is reduce the rewards received by new accounts and feed it to the whales and bots.
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (54)
@arcange ·
Congratulations @yintercept!
Your post was mentioned in the [Steemit Hit Parade for newcomers](https://steemit.com/hit-parade/@arcange/daily-hit-parade-for-newcomers-20181107) in the following category:

* Comments - Ranked 4 with 24 comments

I also upvoted your post to increase its reward
If you like my work to promote newcomers and give them more visibility on Steemit, consider to [vote for my witness](https://steemit.com/~witnesses)!
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@ats-david ·
Please read this. You either havenโ€™t seen plenty of points that have already addressed your concerns or youโ€™re just ignoring them. 

https://steemit.com/steem/@ats-david/improved-curation-rewards-are-still-a-necessity

>So the change from 25/75 to 50/50 would have an effect of reducing earnings of small accounts by about 30% and redistribute this income to whales and bots.

This is not true. It would only *initially* reduce rewards for those who rely solely on post rewards for โ€œincome.โ€ As behavior and investment habits change, posting rewards could easily increase as a whole due to better incentives for buying and holding STEEM as SP.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@yintercept ·
The big problem on SteemIt is that the current structure does not communicate to new users that they have to buy STEEM POWER for their accounts to work.

My post addresses the specific claim that the problem on SteemIt is lack of curation. I addressed this specific question by pointing out that the regenerating rate of voting power regulates the amount of curation. The 50/50 formula will not change the amount of curation.

Lets get back to the real issue. SteemIt needs to encourage people to invest in and hold on to STEEM POWER.

@remlaps pointed out that there are people who want to invest in STEEM and want to curate but who don't want to write root level posts.

Instead of changing the formula for everyone; SteemIt could create a program specifically for curators. 

I wrote a second post on a [Dedicated Curation Program](https://steemit.com/steemit/@yintercept/dedicated-curation-program). This idea fits in with your claim that you want STEEM to power a network of sites.

The dedicated curation system could run on delegation. SteemIt writers who want to attract curators would delegate steem to an account. Lets call it @dc. The account @dc would delegate matching STEEM POWER to accounts wanting to curate.

My matching delegation, I simply mean that the amount of delegation is driven by the amount of STEEM POWER in the account. An account with 100 SP would get a higher delegation than one with 10 SP.

Authors seeking readers would hold SP and delegate it to the curators because they want readers. Dedicated curators would use a dedicated curation system because it increases their rewards.

The 50/50 split concept is based on the idea that SteemIt should be one centralized core that dictators the behavior of any system that connects with the system.

The dedicated curator concept works on the concept that SteemIt is a toolbox and that different people can build different systems with the resources from the tool box. 

The dedicated curator is a different interface to the content that has a different reward structure. 

The advantage of a modular design where different systems can have different attributes is that it allows developers to experiment with different formulas.

Before a dramatic change like the 50/50 concept, why not try modular design?
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@conradt ·
My curation rewards are so minimal at the moment i dont put any thought into curation - just upvote content i enjoy. 

Some people say the reason for wanting the change is that there are more content consumers than creators which makes the current system unfair. But it is the content creators who put in the majority of the work so should get the majority of the rewards!

I think that over time changing curation would reduce the quality of content here
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@yintercept ·
My curation rewards are generally under a nickel a week; so doubling the rewards would only be a nickel.
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@crokkon · (edited)
$0.02
.
.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@yintercept ·
Thanks for the great info on the stats. I wasn't sure what "curation reward" and "posting rewards" measured. The ratio of the two figures shows how  much rewards I've received from the two activities.

As I understand the rewards are based on VESTS and not SP. An upvote takes my VESTS multiplies it by Voting Power and Voting Weight. My portion of the curation rewards is based on when I voted, my VESTS and my position in the queue.

As an account in the plankton, my vests are small. Most of my curation rewards are under a penny. I managed to front run a bot last week and made my first votes that measured over a penny. It was fun but not life changing.

I wrote a post about how one could use the delegation system to create a program for [dedicated curators](https://steemit.com/steemit/@yintercept/dedicated-curation-program). This system would give direct rewards to curation while encouraging both authors and curators to hold STEEM.
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@frdem3dot0 ·
$0.04
it is just a move by people with a lot of sp to try to gain more profits. It is another blow into the face of small accounts that make literally all their income from posting and that do not have a meaning-full vote. 

Steem economic system is not that well designed, by giving more power to large holders it is not going to change. But when the big players are in controll, they will vote for changes they like. Lets hope they are smart enough to realise that their success depends on adoption of steem and a 50/50 split is not going to help.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@ew-and-patterns ·
$0.92
Small accounts get an average of zero to 3 cents per post, NO MATTER how good their content is. Sure after 50/50 the whales will get more rewards, but every good curator will as well. After all STEEMIT was designed as a content discovery platform. So the best posts should get the most rewards. But this is impossible under 75/25 model. There is just no incentive to vote the best content when a simple self upvote or bot delegation is much more profitable.
And the minnows' curation rewards will increase as well. If the minnow is a good curator he might even make 10 to 20 cents in curation per full upvote after this change, which is impossible now. You would just have to be among the first to discover good content.

This platform has always favored the ones who trust in it and invest FIRST! If you think that you can make a decent amount of money here without investing first, dream on.
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vote details (6)
@frdem3dot0 ·
$0.03
What you state is not true at all. Minnows make noting from curation. This is because with their small sp they do not get even 0.001 steem. A boost to 50% would help, but curation rewards would still be unreliable and subject to big loss from rounding. It currently takes about 100sp to reliably get some small curation rewards. Everyone below that is effectively excluded from curation. 

When I started i made literally 100% from author rewards. The change will certainly hurt minnows. 

Furthermore a 50% curation reward does not realign the incentives. Self-voting is still better than curating content. Right now it is possible to make money from curating, but that only when you place tiny strategically places votes. With 50% that becomes a bit better, but nowhere close enough to make a positive change. 

Curation is a game and there are strategies to maximise rewards. But fundamentally it relies on the willingness of some people to forgo this optimum strategy and reward good content. That can be proven game theoretically. 
Now the system can be set up in such a way that a good strategy is to follow these few nice people that break the symmetry of the game and amplify their vote.  50/50 could do that, but at the same time it hurts the producers that the nice people want to reward. Reality is complex and we probably need a statistical simulation of participants to see. My impression is that 50/50 will not be better and feels even more artificial than the 100/0 which is simply a pure tipping system.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@frdem3dot0 ·
$0.05
why change your post instead of replying to my comment?

Anyways, I never claimed that first investors should be stripped of their influence. I also dont think free money is sustainable, ever. And that is part of the problem with steem. Steem is too much free money. Think if we had advertisement. Then we would just pay the person putting the add and maybe people that resteem to increase visibility. No more artificial rewards out of thin air but a logical business model with a natural flow of rewards. 

But this is not steem. We have a game theoretical model of upvoting and are discussing how to best make free money appear. And that is a very tough question. I think that most people arguing for or against 50% do not have the statistical or game theoretical background to do so. These systems are very complex and there is no simple logic because there is no real market flow. So why risk breaking something that is not broken? 

For example voting at a fundamental level is ignorant of the content. Curation is the game of voting first what others will vote later. If you know self-voters, vote on them first. No matter the content. Curation is a voting amplification, not a method to find good content.
From a game theoretical perspective,  we always need people that do not follow the optimum strategy and make a loss to curate good content. There is simply no way around it. Not at 0%, 50% or 100%. Yet people believe that 50% would magically transform the system when I think that 50% will just give rise to a new strategy of abuse that may or may not be better than what we currently have.  

In the end I dont care that much. My stake here is low and if this goes wrong I will just loose a few thousand $. But people that have a substantial stake should be careful what they do. And if I were among them I would be very careful to use simple flawed logic to change a fundamental part of the system which risks breaking it.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@gduran ·
$0.25
I really don't understand why people think 50/50 would benefit Steemit, it certainly would benefit curators (the ones with large SP) but the authors? Rewards are a finite daily resource, say 80,000 Steem daily (this is just a number, I don't know what the reward pool is), right now authors would get 60,000 with 50/50 they get 40,000 and that's it, curators would jump from 20,000 to 40,000 why would they change their voting habits if all of a sudden they will be getting 100% more for what they are already doing? So yes whales and large stakeholders will benefit, no one else will.
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vote details (5)
@rupok ·
$0.02
I completely agree with you.You have got it right.Now it's not about just the whales,whales are earning fine.Now all the whales have to think about the minnows.But that 50/50 will certainly not do any good for the new comers or the minnows who are already existing.Thanks @gduran for the veluable opinion.
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vote details (4)
@jacobtothe ·
$0.27
As Steem Pope, I cannot grant my blessing to changes that are transparent attempts to reward whales and bots. Curate to promote quality content, not for profit. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing curation switch toward a 90%/10% model and a proportionate increase in the number of votes one can make in a day..
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vote details (6)
@personz ·
$0.02
Flawed thinking. Incentives matter and they are primary drivers on Steem. Curate to promote quality content **and get rewarded**. Otherwise why not use bots and self vote?
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@jacobtothe ·
$0.04
Incentives matter. No argument there. As it stands now, minnows receive no curation rewards. We need incentives to reward *creating* quality content, and ideally, a reward mechanism for flagging the spam, plagiarism, and abuse in the system.

I think the 75/25 split is probably about right. 50/50 is skewed to reward whales and bots. Perhaps 90/10 is overkill, but I for one curate  without really trying to game the system for profit.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@programmingvalue ·
$0.08
Who gave you the right to be Steem Pope?
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@jacobtothe ·
$0.02
I gave myself the title a long time ago. It was largely as a joke, and I use it when I want to make a slightly tongue-in-cheek pompous declaration, or when I want to offer occasional advice to newbies on ethical behavior here.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@waivio ·
$0.22
Authors get a jolt of dopamine when readers angage with their content - in a way they already received their reward. But curators do not get anything beyond the payment itself (not to mention curation share of rewards is distributed between all curators accordingly)

Here is [$0.15 poll on curation rewards](https://steemit.com/waivio/@waivio/usd0-15-poll-case-for-higher-curation-rewards) with some useful references.

Higher curation rewards should also reduce profitability of promotion bots.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@krnel · (edited)
$0.06
I agree. It's funny how so many already curate and paid so little and do it anyways. Meanwhile, we're supposed to "trust" the rich on the platform to actually care to curate if we give them double... lol. Why do't they already care to curate? They already make a lot more than the small fish... yet that isn't "good enough". It's all about the money, not making curation any better. The bots and vote sellers will be the ones that benefit the most. Resteemed the post as it's a good basic down-lo of the issue ;)
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@dalz ·
Nice to see that you support this @krnel :)
I agree as well. This is in favor for those with capital, and against the labor, or to say, against the ones who are actively posting.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@ocd ·
<div class=text-justify>

**Congratulations**, your post was discovered and featured by @OCD in its [daily compilation 273](https://steemit.com/ocd/@ocd/ocd-daily-issue-273)!

You can follow @ocd โ€“ learn more about the project and see other *Gems*! We strive for transparency.

---

As a whitelisted author, you may use @ocdb - a non-profit bidbot for whitelisted Steemians. Check our [website](https://thegoodwhales.io/) for the whitelist, queue and delegation info. Join our [Discord channel for more information](https://discord.gg/YGVAvvm).

---

@ocd now has a witness. You can vote for @ocd-witness with [SteemConnect](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=ocd-witness&approve=1) or on [Steemit Witnesses](https://steemit.com/~witnesses) to help support other undervalued authors!

</div>
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@programmingvalue ·
$0.11
Curation is cheaper and adds more value to the network than posts, it'd make sense that the whales are toying with this idea.
๐Ÿ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@yintercept ·
When talking about posts, one needs to separate base posts from replies. 

Replies provide real world feedback and encourage actual dialog.

HF20 did a great job reducing spammy posts. Since they give replies the same weight as posts, they suppressed both  new threads and replies.

PS: the best way to handle the  resource credits for replies is to make comments thread aware. Adding a reply in a thread in which one is already engaged should not cost as much as creating a new thread or replying to t a new thread.
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@remlaps · (edited)
$0.14
I'm no whale, but I support the 50/50 rewards idea.  (What I would really like to see is for authors to be able to choose their own reward ratio when they submit their posts so each author could use curation rewards to attract an audience and find their own ideal value, but that's not gonna happen any time soon.  I very much doubt if there's a very good *one size fits all* solution.)

> The thought behind this action is that increasing the curation rewards would increase curation activity.

For me, among other things, the thinking is that: (i) Increasing curation rewards would make Steem a more attractive investment, which would bring more people to Steem and increase its value; (ii) It would encourage authors to power-up more of their author rewards instead of dumping them on the market right away, which would also increase Steem's value; (iii) It would boost the ratio of readers-to-authors in order for authors to get more visibility; (iv) At Steem's new, higher value, and with larger audiences, authors would earn more, even though their percentage is lower.

So yes, I agree with your statement that it would increase curation activity, but that's only a small part of it.  I think it would also benefit authors and attract investors.

What do you think should be the number of readers per author?  Forget about rewards for a moment.  Do you think Steem's high quality authors are getting anywhere near the audience size that they deserve?  If you agree with me that authors here deserve much larger audiences than they are currently getting, what effect do you think the 50/50 curation reward would have on the size of each author's audience?

**Update:** FYI, Here is [the best description I've seen of how voting works](https://steempeak.com/steem-help/@biophil/the-ultimate-guide-to-voting-power-with-cartoons-formulas-and-code-references).  That was probably written when the "voting target" was 40 per day instead of the 10 per day that we have now, but the rest should be similar.  When I read it, the part that surprised me was this:

> Surprising news: if you want to maximize your total influence, it doesn't matter how much you vote, as long as you vote more than about 27 times per day. Your total influence is the same whether you vote 1000 times per day or 27. This is because of the constant drip of voting power filling your tank.

I guess we would replace "27" with "7" or "8" today.  
๐Ÿ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@programmingvalue ·
$0.10
Agreed, I think it makes sense in theory.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@svamiva · (edited)
$0.34
>What I would really like to see is for authors to be able to choose their own reward ratio 

FYI exactly that is supposed to be implemented on Golos by the next HF scheduled on Nov 22
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (8)
@remlaps ·
$0.06
Oh, that's great.  I wish I could speak Russian.  That has been my wish here for quite some time.  I'm eager to see how it works out.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@yintercept ·
$0.05
SteemIt doesn't post the hit count anywhere, does it?

A long time ago I read a post that said SteemIt had a hit counter, but removed it. Hit counters are easy to manipulate.

Without  hit counters, we don't know how many people read an article.

My observation on general sites, BTW, is that general public usually doesn't find an article until after the search engines scour the web. The general public usually finds articles several weeks after the article has been published. SteemIt authors don't get any reward for the general web traffic that they bring to the site.

Anyway, I can only write about the data that is provided to me. All of the data I have seen shows that the amount of curation is driven by the refresh rate of voting power. 

That means that changing to the 50/50 structure won't increase curation activity, it will simply drop the author rewards by 30%.

The question of how one can bring in users that buy STEEM POWER and how to keep authors for powering down in a completely different question. I don't see a change to a 50/50 structure bringing in new casual readers.

PPS: There may be some value in creating special reader accounts.

Such readers are better motivated by delegation than by changing the curation reward structure.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@remlaps ·
They had view counters for a while, but they disappeared without comment.  I had assumed that it was because the view numbers were so low.  It looked sort-of silly when a post with 5 views was getting $300 in rewards.

> Anyway, I can only write about the data that is provided to me. All of the data I have seen shows that the amount of curation is driven by the refresh rate of voting power.
> 
> That means that changing to the 50/50 structure won't increase curation activity, it will simply drop the author rewards by 30%.

By 33% in terms of Steem power, but (hopefully) the increase in audience size and the value of Steem would more than compensate for that drop, and the end result would be an increase in satisfaction and reward value.  You're right, we can't know the effect of a change until we try it, but it would be simple enough to reverse the change if it didn't work as hoped.  Maybe, before implementation, the community should insist on some metrics and a checkpoint date to see if the change worked as intended and - if not - reverse it.

Also, when you talk about the recharge rate, you're assuming that the number of voters stays the same.  I believe that wouldn't happen.  A way to look at it is that by adding voters and moving Steem from the exchanges to powered-up wallets, we'd (hopefully) be speeding up the aggregate recharge rate.
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@steemitboard ·
Congratulations @yintercept! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

<table><tr><td>https://steemitimages.com/60x70/http://steemitboard.com/@yintercept/votes.png?201811080518</td><td>You made more than 1750 upvotes. Your next target is to reach 2000 upvotes.</td></tr>
</table>

<sub>_[Click here to view your Board of Honor](https://steemitboard.com/@yintercept)_</sub>
<sub>_If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word_ `STOP`</sub>


To support your work, I also upvoted your post!


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@valued-customer ·
You are absolutely correct, and those agitating for increased curation rewards either know this and promote it disingenuously, or don't and believe curation action is driven by content quality - which it isn't, because of the profit motive.  If it was driven by content quality then plankton that posted high quality posts would not be plankton for long, as curation activity was drawn to their posts.  But curation activity is drawn by profitability, not quality content.  Plankton posts are unlikely to draw votes such that curating them is profitable.

Capital gains has driven investment since time immemorial, and is a suitable mechanism to profit investors.  That mechanism has functioned to drive industry from chipping rocks and making pointy sticks to aircraft carriers and F35 fighters.  It's highly functional, robust, and only flawed insofar as alternative mechanisms to extract profit from production besides sales of products are extant.

Social media platforms aren't driven by content alone, as society is a vastly complex entity, but content quality as determined by users is the product that increases the value of the Steem token - the investment vehicle subject to capital gains.  Curation is an alternative mechanism that allows profit to be extracted before it can increase the value of Steem, which depresses the price of Steem, and harms creators and investors alike.  It is a parasitic siphon of profits that would otherwise fund content creation and capital gains.

We can see from other (non-tokenized) social media that folks will upvote (like) content without any curation reward whatsoever, and dropping curation rewards altogether won't eliminate upvotes, but will eliminate that particular vector for profiteering - which will be good for investors and creators by restoring the financial incentives to create content and invest in Steem for capital gains.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.  Creating content is work.  Being rewarded financially for work is reasonable.  Upvoting content others make isn't work, and curation rewards pretend to be free lunch.  However, they're not free, as the funds extracted via curation decrease the funds paid the workers who make the content.  Worse yet, they extract the increase in value of the Steem token that would create capital gains for investors, decreasing the motivation to invest in Steem.

Gains and profit aren't bad, if they are derived from activity that increases the value of the productive endeavor.  For Steem increasing that value means rewarding content that is popular and upvoted.  Funds that are diverted from rewarding content are diverted from producing that content, and that content also drives the value of the token, so curation rewards also decrease capital gains and harm investors.  Curation is parasitism of capital in the present system, and increasing the extraction of capital via parasitism will harm creators and investors alike.

Thanks!
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