Viewing a response to: @creatr/this-is-not-that-a-comment-on-romans-13
The main point of agreement between Paul and his intended audience was their shared belief that the Roman government had just brutally, publicly executed the only sinless person in the world. Him telling them to obey the Roman government **because they only hurt bad people** is ridiculous. Either he's telling them not to obey the Romans, by encoding it with shared knowledge; or he's not talking about the Roman government.
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Hey Matt, Thanks for reading and commenting. > *"Either he's telling them not to obey the Romans, by encoding it with shared knowledge; or he's not talking about the Roman government."* Someone in another forum has asserted that my article exhibits two logical fallacies; ["False Dilemma"](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/False-Dilemma) and ["Begging the Question."](https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/begging-the-question.html) I think you may be following suit, at least with the "False Dichotomy."🤣 Having said that, and while I am still mulling over the accusation, my preliminary reaction is that neither of us bear much guilt on that count... Perhaps we've simply emphasized what in our minds are the two most probable interpretations without bothering to explicitly acknowledge there may be other options. You and I agree on one of the possibilities; to wit, that Paul's **not** talking about [the state](https://zeroaggressionproject.org/mental-lever/the-state/). And I'm willing to concede that there are probably an infinite range of other possible interpretations rather than the one I prefer. On my part, I've become persuaded that any positive talk about governance in the New Testament is aimed at God's *ideal* form of governance, which is *local*—at the level of cities—and is *voluntary* when it comes to participation. This governance structure is best embodied by [the ecclesia](https://peakd.com/kingdom/@creatr/the-state-or-god-s-kingdom-a-comparison-chart). This is the governance I write about extensively in my [**Kingdom Series**](https://peakd.com/library/@creatr/the-kingdom-of-jesus-god-the-heavens-my-library-shelf) of articles. > *"Him telling them to obey the Roman government **because they only hurt bad people** is ridiculous."* I could not agree more. Blessings, Friend! And Happy New Year to you and yours. 😄😇😉 <a href="https://hive.blog/a/@creatr/b" target="_blank"> <img src="https://images.hive.blog/DQmY6ZCaqzHVKzABt8RX4rQ8ojC5ygLHmEmxWDovcEnx46A/creatr_ap.gif" alt="@creatr" style="border:0;"> </a>
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Either he's referring to the Roman state or he isn't. I don't see a third option.
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Thanks for that additional word, as it clarifies my thinking in the larger context of an ongoing, raging debate that I seem to be in with "statists" or at least "partial statists." Let me explain: > *"Either he's referring to the Roman state or he isn't. I don't see a third option."* The "third option" I see is—as your comment has brought clearly into focus for me—actually an infinitely nuanced take on "how the Roman state is viewed" in this passage. In the minds of statists, including many of my peers, I think it has become a matter of degree as to the circumstances and the amount of civil disobedience allowed by the passage. Most of them *still believe* the state is at some level legitimate, while I do not. I see the state as raw power. In my own mind, I am at the far extreme; even if I were to hypothetically allow that Romans 13 might possibly be referring to the Roman state, I don't see it as morally demanding any "obedience" at all; rather, as a warning to be prepared to suffer the consequences of going against the grain.
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