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RE: SIMPLE QUESTION: When does a scientist cease being a scientist? by yintercept

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Viewing a response to: @dwinblood/simple-question-when-does-a-scientist-cease-being-a-scientist

· @yintercept ·
$0.13
I like the classical ideals concerning logic and science. I see science as the application of the scientific method to the study of nature.

Unfortunately, the Kantian/Hegelian tradition redefined the term "science." 

Both the Left and Right (progressives and conservatives) have adopted the new definitions. So, my ideas about science are in the minority.

Hegel promoted a process call sublation.  Sublation is a dialectical process in which the meaning of terms change with usage.  When skillfully applied, dialecticians can turn a word into its opposite.

It is easier to explain the process of sublation with a different term.

In the 1830s, there was a push for radical electoral reform in England. The electoral districts (boroughs) were based on power divisions from centuries earlier. Some "rotten boroughs" had only a dozen voters but their votes were considered equivalent to large cities.

The two parties were the Tories and the Whigs. The Tories favored the supremacy of the King. The Whigs favored the supremacy of Parliament.

The Tories were dependent on the rotten boroughs for their power base.

King William IV (the youngest son of King George III) saw the reform as an existential threat. He appointed Sir Robert Peel as Prime Minister and tasked Peel with the task of rebranding the Tory Party for the modern world.

Sir Robert Peel looked toward a political group in France called "La Senate Conservateur" for inspiration. The Senat Conservateur in the group that brought Napoleon Bonaparte to power and crowned Napoleon Emperor.

Anyway, Sir Robert Peel rebranded the Tories as the "Conservative Party." To this day, Conservatives refer to themselves as Tories.

You may recall from US history that the Tories were the people who leveled their muskets at the US Founders. The US Founders named the actions of King George III as a primary cause for the revolution.

This may come as a surprise to you, but King George III and his sons did not like the US Founders.

King George III saw the US Founders as unprincipled ideologues whose pursuit of an ideal called liberty led to the break up of the English Empire.

In the early 1800s, people used the term "liberal" to describe the ideals of the US Founders.

The Conservatives sought to destroy this thing called "liberalism." The conservatives turned to George Hegel and the process of sublation. Conservatives then began a multi-century effort to turn people against liberalism by projecting negative images on the term "liberal."

A group called progressives formed. They took the negative definition of liberal and ran with it. 

Political discourse is dominated by two groups that use the sublated definition of the term "liberal."

So, what does this have to do with science.

Conservatives and progressives alike use the term "science" to describe this dialectical process.

The term "science" is pretty meaningless. It is like the term "liberal."

Science is simply a term that politicians use for political gain.

Since both progressives and conservatives are married to the  modern definition of science as a dialectical process there is no way to restore the classical meaning of the term.



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@dwinblood · (edited)
$0.10
Excellent. One of the proverbial windmills I have chosen to joust at is the hijacking of words.  Simply redefinition to fit a narrative, and to control minds.  I realize that using the label hijacking there is a little bit hypocritical.  Consider it tongue and cheek because I do see the contradiction.  I use hijacking because I don't see the process as being benevolent.

I tend to view a person as a scientist when they are using the scientific method.  When they are not using it.  They are not scientists.   To give them a permanent label as such conferred by a piece of paper truly has no meaning to me.  I care more about actions.

A person to me can be a scientist when working on a particular project IF they adhere to the scientific method.

They can then go away and NOT be a scientist if they are not using the scientific method.  In fact, this is rather normal.  The scientific method helps us keep our biases in check when seeking answers.  It gives us repeatable processes.  It encourages questioning EVERYTHING in the hope that doing so will give us more and better/stronger answers.

Yet we don't always need that.  We have our opinions.  We have our desires.  We should be able to express those.   Yet we shouldn't be labeled a "scientist" when we do so.

That is my opinion.


Too many Appeal to Authority Fallacies are pushed these days simply by attaching the label Scientist to someone.

To me that is no more valuable than expecting me to blindly believe a priest.

I choose to question everything.  I'll work with which models best explain what I know and can observe until something comes along that makes more sense.

Am I a scientist?  Sometimes. :)
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@yintercept ·
$0.09
"hijacking terms" is a great image, but I find the term "sublate" as it ties the problem into modern philosophy. 

Of course the problem is ancient. Socrates did not like writing down his thoughts as he realized that Sophists could make him look a fool by changing the definition of a term.

Since Socrates did not write down his arguments, Socrates gave Plato the opportunity to hijack his reputation.

BTW, your discussion of science echoes my beliefs. Science is a method of discovery. Anyone who employs the scientific method is being scientific. Unfortunately, science is morally ambivalent. A pimp who scientifically grooms children from child-trafficking is being scientific. A megalomaniac who uses the scientific method is being a scientist when using the scientific method to commit genocide.

Morality questions are not answered by "science."

Some define "political science" is the application of the scientific method to the pursuit of political power. This definition is common on both the right and left. A political scientist could poll the people and figure out how to present a party in a way that will increase the party's chance of gaining power.

Applying science to politics can get people in office, but it does not guarantee that the politician will be good for the people. I think that people who gain power through such manipulation tend to be bad leaders.

While I like the scientific method, my observation is that no matter how one argues the issue, science and politics simply don't mix.

The US founders were trained in classical logic. I think they were hoping for a Republic where legislators engaged in deliberative discourse founded on classical logic. Unfortunately, schools no longer teach logic.
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@dwinblood · (edited)
$0.07
Well said.  I agree.

I also like to point out occasionally that science only works with things that we can reliably observe.

It can tell us nothing about things we have not learned or created the tools to enable us to observe.

Why mention this?

How often do people say "Science disproves X" when they treat the fact they have not found a way to observe X as though it is proof it doesn't exist.

There are many things we can observe today that we once could not.  They certainly existed.

The Scientific Method is a great tool when seeking answers about that which we can observe.  It does not really work for things we cannot.

Often people forget it is simply a tool.

Like all tools I am aware of they can be put to malevolent as well as benevolent uses.

This will likely always be the case.   We must strive to do at every opportunity presented to us we must push against and fight the malevolent usage.
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@dwinblood ·
Thanks for replying.  I up voted your reply the best I could.  I don't have much power here yet.
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