Viewing a response to: @nathen007/re-kennyskitchen-20211227t215057909z
The main thing I want to point out, amongst all the other things you got wrong, is you have the wrong attitude on powerdowns. IF you are for more decentralization you would advocate whales power down and sell so that the resources are spread out. Might you be confused on the concept and thats why you would criticize Kenny for powering down and selling? Optimal conditions for decentralized proof of stake: Does not need whales to function, ever. Does not want whales, ever. Wants staked resources spread out to as many people as possible to further decentralize. Wants whales and early holders of large stake to sell so their large power hold over the entire chain as is eventually gone(75/25 rewards actually did that). Whales are a centralizing force, that control large amounts of power, all whales with excess staked resources are a potential threat vector to decentralization(block trades can unilaterally unvote top witnesses and drop them from top 20 right now, assuming nobody else counters with voting for said witnesses). I wont touch the other parts, just find it curious people want whales to be forever leaders, for some reason you "seem" to believe might = right and like a small amount of whales having power to assert their views.
author | truthforce |
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> Wants whales and early holders of large stake to sell so their large power hold over the entire chain as is eventually gone(75/25 rewards actually did that). The only thing that it incentivized was self-votes and actually accelerated a lot of concentration of power for those who didn't sell. I guess short-term memories about Haejin and Traf is a thing. > I wont touch the other parts, just find it curious people want whales to be forever leaders If you want to get rid of your share in governance, then feel free to do so. Don't tell other people that they should give up theirs because you can't help but throwing yours out for a mess of pottage. People don't necessarily want them for leaders, but you certainly don't help your position by throwing away your power while they opt to not do so. > Optimal conditions for decentralized proof of stake: Is when people prefer to hold than selling. Obviously, there's no incentive for the "average" Hiver to hold HP, thus they sell. Bigger chains like ADA have over 70% of the circulating supply locked up in people's wallets whereas it's much less so on Hive. Ask yourself why.
author | enforcer48 |
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stimialiti | 0 | -159,488,250 | -1% | ||
makerhacks | 0 | 223,543,110,053 | 100% | ||
antisocialist | 0 | 94,289,502,204 | 19% | ||
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>The only thing that it incentivized was self-votes and actually accelerated a lot of concentration of power for those who didn't sell. I guess short-term memories about Haejin and Traf is a thing. 75/25 bled out many whales overtime whereas 50/50 doesn't. Make an excel spreadsheet and compare it and you will see each year under 75 25 whales get diluted, 50 50 only does if they sell There were a few examples of that that free downvotes already take care of now so, specific edge cases like haejin have been mostly dealt with now. There is no defined technical spec you can point to that requires 20 people to hold over 50 percent of HP for Hive to function. >If you want to get rid of your share in governance, then feel free to do so. Don't tell other people that they should give up theirs because you can't help but throwing yours out for a mess of pottage. >People don't necessarily want them for leaders, but you certainly don't help your position by throwing away your power while they opt to not do so. I do sometimes do that so I decentralize the chain further by allowing my small portion of liquid hive to be used by a new person powering up. I can and will write what I want to, and advocate for what I want to. I'm not saying "tell" whales did x, I'm saying advocate they do. That's what witnesses and whales are, politicians wielding varying degrees of power, I'm sure you can appreciate people getting thier viice heard to thier representatives right? Who I vote as witness represents me after all, and who I dont vite for also does due to the power dynamics of hive governance. Hive would be more decentralized without whales, we escaped Justin Sun but we clearly didnt learn our lesson if we r defending whales
author | truthforce |
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jaki01 | 0 | 191,500,629,413 | 10% | ||
logiczombie | 0 | 21,324,064,191 | 100% | ||
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> Make an excel spreadsheet and compare it and you will see each year under 75 25 whales get diluted, And I bet you did meticulous digging to make sure they aren't voting on alts, etc. But hey, what do I know about various ways to game the system after all the years I've been here? > I'm sure you can appreciate people getting thier viice heard to thier representatives right? Witnesses don't have to represent your views. Advocating that is just one of your arbitrary, and personal, parameters. They objectively secure the chain. That's it. And funnily enough, there are plenty of people voting for @earn.hive because they are so desperately chasing that money. <h4>Here's my criticism against the "truther" community on Hive:</h4> In all the years of the "truthers" have wielded the massive free delegations from @jamesc and whale support from people like @xeldal, none of you could put together one product or service that entice people to funnel inflation/outside funds your way. Nobody from the "truther" community was able to put something together like a Hive Engine. A cool community like LeoFinance. Or a valuable service like FRIDAY bot. And you are blaming it on the "lack of decentralization"? You willingly followed these "whales" into a new chain they forked. You didn't have to. There were other, much smaller voices, that tried to fork, but were all ignored. In fact, I remember @anthonyadavisii tried to make a fork, but was pretty much buried in the dust. The reason: it's always about the rewards and the money. NO EXCEPTIONS. 99.5% that say it's not about them are dishonest, at best. It's actually hilarious to read posts like this. It's like some of you guys would jump on the "Soros is bad" train, but fail to learn from how he managed to build up an empire and then gained influence to push out his propaganda. You don't have to be scummy like him, but the principles apply. Instead of having something to offer, you guys did the exact same thing that we made fun of the so-called businesses on Hive/Steem back in the days. Your sole revenue stream and value proposition is THE REWARD POOL. Your only product, if you could even call them that, is supposed pieces of "journalism". Okay, that's fine, but where are your sponsors? Why is it that the entire community subsists on the generosity of Hive natives? What happened to all the similar-minded folks outside of Hive? Last time I checked, Hive isn't the last bastion of their existence. Imagine if Splinterlands based its business model solely on the reward pool. Imagine if LeoFinance only used the reward pool. They wouldn't be where they are today. Do you think @aggroed amassed his power from witness rewards alone? Do you think @khaleelkazi got where he is today by posting like a mad mofo? Instead of wondering what you could do to push governance in your favor, I've only seen unproductive complaints. It's absolutely hysterical to me that the last resort is to behave like the crypto versions of Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders. At the end of the day, I'm tired of seeing stuff like this.
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Stop using logical arguments for a decentralization and a wealth distribution project . "..you're not the kind of droids that the large hive accounts are looking for..." Small clubs who ethos is 'mooooar' , only want very obedient and non thinking droids - got it?
author | lucylin |
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kennyskitchen | 0 | 119,463,540,755 | 100% | ||
frankbacon | 0 | 10,927,974,121 | 17% | ||
freebornsociety | 0 | -1,061,572,249 | -8% | ||
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azircon | 0 | -4,187,801,407,096 | -25% | ||
logiczombie | 0 | 30,403,310,470 | 100% |
I am quite aware of that, however, the people reading my exchanges with others is who I am looking to convince of the merits of my arguments(not the particular person I am arguing with).
author | truthforce |
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....this is my reasoning to, with mostly all the comments I make....
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Whales are not 'leaders' they are influential in managing the platform and that's a huge difference. They do not directly effect my behaviour. As for my mentioning his powerdown, you're right. He can do whatever he wishes with his stake but its hypocritical to then turn round and criticise others for doing whatever they wish with theirs. I try to come with an attitude of gratitude for what I have been given as opposed to whinging about what I don't have or even worse, jealous of what others have. Unless you wrote the code, you're always a guest at someone else's party and if you don't like the music, you either ask for some new tunes or you go find another party.
author | nathen007 |
---|---|
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---|---|---|---|---|---|
makerhacks | 0 | 214,569,353,981 | 100% | ||
enforcer48 | 0 | 73,671,696,217 | 10% |
>Whales are not 'leaders' they are influential in managing the platform and that's a huge difference. They do not directly effect my behaviour. Whales who vote for witnesses are "forever leaders" as long as they have their stake, they are King Makers and that is actually more powerful in many ways than being a "leader" which is why I called it "forever leaders". They make the Kings that others have to follow(block chain rules/upgrades/updates/etc). >you're always a guest at someone else's party and if you don't like the music, you either ask for some new tunes or you go find another party. Exactly, while here I will advocate for a far better model, POS Ethereum will change the entire way people see decentralization, Justin Sun could not have done what he did on Steem, on Etheruem POS his stunt he pulled would have lost him all of his stake automatically. 
author | truthforce |
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---|---|---|---|---|---|
jaki01 | 0 | 191,861,312,567 | 10% | ||
logiczombie | 0 | 26,988,664,289 | 100% |
Sounds way more centralized than on Hive, mate. It's pure POS, so the rich will literally just get richer. Here 15% goes to HP holders and 10% to witnesses while the majority goes to authors and curators, do you think the orcas and whales we have here today who most likely didn't buy in or use hardware to mine would exist on ETH? Not saying whales who hold their HP don't grow nicely alongside everyone else but anyone has a chance here earning their way up. Look at aggroed, marky, tarazkp, etc. Hell even I didn't buy any stake until after the 2018 bull run. None of that would've been possible on any other chain, going POS won't help that so it's really annoying when people bring these propositions in their arguments against Hive when there's literally no other blockchain out there offering the same opportunities to "non-whales".
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---|---|
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---|---|---|---|---|---|
onealfa | 0 | 766,612,178,732 | 100% | ||
richardcrill | 0 | 3,928,152,027 | 2.25% | ||
eturnerx | 0 | 273,548,486,437 | 6.5% | ||
makerhacks | 0 | 210,319,379,165 | 100% | ||
antisocialist | 0 | 95,104,154,604 | 19% | ||
bilpcoin.pay | 0 | 516,748,430 | 10% | ||
bobthebuilder2 | 0 | 3,377,794,285 | 2.34% | ||
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> Does not need whales to function, ever. Yes and no. I sold a large part of the stake I once had, and then bought more using outside investment in the past couple of years. The current value of post rewards paid out is about $30 million per year. Without people buying in, with an inflationary system where people earn rewards that are often sold to cash out, the value of HIVE (and reward payouts) would crash, and no one would be happy. Yes it is conceivably possible, without whales, to have a large number of small investors, say a million new investors per year each putting in $30 each, but I don't see that Hive or Steem has ever been successful in attracting that level of participation.
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pfunk | 0 | 285,793,109,111 | 4% | ||
richardcrill | 0 | 5,258,081,847 | 3% | ||
antisocialist | 0 | 95,787,092,279 | 19% | ||
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proofofbrainio | 0 | 7,823,819,940 | 2% | ||
scholaris.pob | 0 | 364,236,697 | 4% |
Would you be open to sell more? In your view on who is still a whale, what does Hive look like in 5 years? I want to see a ton of smaller accounts with power using thier votes instead of 1 person with a lot of stake. Vitalik has a great critique on DPOS and how POS is way better. I'm in the POS camp mostly, ethereum POS will be a huge step towards system wide decentralization at the whale or minnow level
author | truthforce |
---|---|
permlink | r4syla |
category | hive-167922 |
json_metadata | {"app":"hiveblog/0.1"} |
created | 2021-12-28 01:53:36 |
last_update | 2021-12-28 01:53:36 |
depth | 4 |
children | 1 |
last_payout | 2022-01-04 01:53:36 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.044 HBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.040 HBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 HBD |
promoted | 0.000 HBD |
body_length | 409 |
author_reputation | 76,463,400,048,765 |
root_title | "The main excuse for malicious down-voting is "Over-Rewarded Content..." What about the account making $10k+ PER DAY in spam comments?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 HBD |
percent_hbd | 10,000 |
post_id | 108,915,778 |
net_rshares | 43,345,530,624 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
frankbacon | 0 | 10,961,163,500 | 17% | ||
richardcrill | 0 | 3,929,035,996 | 2.25% | ||
logiczombie | 0 | 18,962,879,276 | 100% | ||
bobthebuilder2 | 0 | 3,378,345,010 | 2.34% | ||
proofofbrainio | 0 | 5,853,646,555 | 1.5% | ||
scholaris.pob | 0 | 260,460,287 | 3% |
I will probably sell again at some point. Right now I feel it is massively undevalued. In any case, there is plenty of HIVE and HBD (which can be converted into HIVE) being sold from inflation/rewards every day. There is no shortage of HIVE to buy for new would-be stakeholders.
author | smooth |
---|---|
permlink | r4t931 |
category | hive-167922 |
json_metadata | {"app":"hiveblog/0.1"} |
created | 2021-12-28 05:40:15 |
last_update | 2021-12-28 05:41:06 |
depth | 5 |
children | 0 |
last_payout | 2022-01-04 05:40:15 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.114 HBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.109 HBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 HBD |
promoted | 0.000 HBD |
body_length | 279 |
author_reputation | 260,342,945,372,716 |
root_title | "The main excuse for malicious down-voting is "Over-Rewarded Content..." What about the account making $10k+ PER DAY in spam comments?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 HBD |
percent_hbd | 10,000 |
post_id | 108,921,254 |
net_rshares | 108,847,949,258 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
richardcrill | 0 | 3,927,311,475 | 2.25% | ||
antisocialist | 0 | 95,431,568,571 | 19% | ||
bobthebuilder2 | 0 | 3,376,800,287 | 2.34% | ||
proofofbrainio | 0 | 5,851,992,506 | 1.5% | ||
scholaris.pob | 0 | 260,276,419 | 3% |