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RE: Our Plan for Onboarding the Masses by andrarchy

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Viewing a response to: @jondoe/pv7fxw

· @andrarchy ·
That's basically the situation. Because work on EIP and SPS is complete :)
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@jondoe ·
$0.59
Good deal. What do you think about changing the witness votes from "30" to "10 or 5"? Right now our Top 20 witnesses are basically all being decided by just a couple of the largest stake holders. That isn't really decentralized in any way... dropping the number down to "10" or even better "5" would significantly help with that.
πŸ‘  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@andrarchy ·
I think it's definitely worth considering, and one that should be raised with the Witnesses. I would say that we are at least in favor of getting the conversation started about whether this is something that should be implemented in a future hardfork. If someone were to make a great post about this, we'd be happy to Feature it so that the idea could be presented to more people.
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@ats-david ·
At least one post was made about these ideas 9 months ago. 

https://steemit.com/steem/@ats-witness/steem-witnesses-vote-number-and-decay

And there were others.
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@bryan-imhoff ·
It would be even more decentralizing to use the concept of 1 vest = 1 vote in the witness system. In other words, you can choose to use all your stake voting on 1 witness, or spread it around in any way you want, but it is *not* your SP x 30! You can delegate your votes out in whatever % of your stake you want, but if a 1 million SP account votes 500k to witness #1 and 250k to witnesses 2 & 3, they’re done... 1 million votes used.
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@jondoe ·
$0.70
Interesting. I wonder which would be an easier change at the coding level? I personally like 5 votes per account, but your way would work as well.
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vote details (4)
@patrickulrich ·
It took me a second to process what you're asking because I was thinking # of witnesses and not # of witness votes. I think this would be an excellent suggestion though it's going to take the same witnesses who benefit voting to end said benefit.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/patrickulrich)
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@jondoe ·
$0.68
Yep, which is part of what is wrong with this system. The foxes are watching the hen house. We need to make these changes and we need to make them as soon as possible. One or two stake holders should not be able to select all 20 top witnesses...
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vote details (4)
@smooth · (edited)
That is a bad idea. In fact the ideal number of witness votes should be unlimited and it only isn't because of an annoying exploit with backups (and it is indeed frustrating and perhaps worth reconsidering that the little 1/21 slot forces us to weaken the voting system and indeed the whole platform).

This may seem counterintuitive, but the idea of the approval voting method is to vote for all witnesses you believe are competent and not malicious. Those evaluated as such by the most stake are chosen. Smaller limits of votes leads to more gaming attempts to manipulate the list, and in doing so very likely makes the system less secure.

> Right now our Top 20 witnesses are basically all being decided by just a couple of the largest stake holders

At the same time this is false (for example several of us don't have a vote from freedom yet we are still there), and also ultimately the way it is supposed to work. The people with the most at risk should have the most say, it should require a _lot_ of stake to get any witness into the list, and also you don't want relatively small(er) amounts of stake to ever be able to elect any witness, and certainly not multiple witnesses (see above re. "less secure").

In terms of the biggest stakeholders having huge influence, I think the bigger concern might be people not voting at all, and a lot of stake sitting on exchanges in liquid non-voting form. Because when it comes down to it the biggest stakeholders aren't even that big (freedom owns about 3%!), so their relatively large influence over witnesses is an indication of not that much stake actually voting. I really don't know how to do anything about that.
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@jondoe · (edited)
$0.51
That is not false at all, it is a general statement that is absolutely accurate. The top 20 witnesses are in fact being decided basically by a couple of the largest stake holders. That is a fact. All are receiving a vote from one of the top couple whales. That means that you have 2-3 whales basically dictating the direction of the entire platform. How do you not see that as a problem?

>and also ultimately the way it is supposed to work. 

Perhaps if the goal is to just have the richest person dictating things for the entire platform, then yes this is how it is supposed to work. However, many people have touted that having witnesses elected by the people helps decentralize the governing process, which it absolutely does.

As a counter example, if one malicious group were to acquire enough stake they could vote in all of the top 20 witnesses themselves, yes it would require a big stake, but it could be done in theory, they could vote in all 20 of "their" people and guide the entire platform in the direction they want or just crash the chain to watch it burn.

While that may sound extreme, there are people out there that do things just like that, in fact there are even some on this chain already.

Yes, that is unlikely, but it is still possible.

Reducing the number of witness votes per account makes that much harder to do.

> I think the bigger concern might be people not voting at all

Yes, and that is because their vote literally makes no difference. If votes were maxed out at 10 or even better 5 it would allow for a much more democratic witnesses structure and it would make more votes 'matter' which in turn would likely incentivize more people to actually vote.

Not only that but it would also continually encourage witnesses to do things in the best interest of their voters, a la more of the community at large, which isn't exactly what we have going on right now. As it stands now, in most cases, you just have to cater to a couple of the largest accounts and you are in.
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vote details (3)
@svamiva ·
>you don't want relatively small(er) amounts of stake to ever be able to elect any witness, and certainly not multiple witnesses 

But why not actually?
People use to describe this situation as an "attack", but for me only the ability to put in "one's own" irreversible transaction deserves this term.
What actuall harm can perform *one malicious witness*?
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@svamiva · (edited)
There's an interesting post from Dan Larimer on Medium about decentralization, suggesting some plausible solutions
https://medium.com/@bytemaster/decentralizing-in-spite-of-pareto-principle-eda86bb8228b
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@jondoe ·
Can't see it without logging in. It seems to be that we need a witness vote total less than whatever the decision making witness total is. Meaning that if 20 witnesses decide things, we need less than 20 votes, ideally significantly less to mitigate the largest accounts splitting their stake... Something like 5 votes per account seems like a good place to start.
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vote details (3)