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Why I Advise Against Linear Reward by teamsteem

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· @teamsteem · (edited)
$733.64
Why I Advise Against Linear Reward
https://i.imgur.com/TUHKdE8.png

This post is a letter addressed to the top 20 witnesses as well as Steemit Inc's CEO. I had intended to send it to them first before publishing it. After reading one of @cervantes [post](https://steemit.com/witness-category/@cervantes/witness-consensus-status-to-fix-the-actual-steem-s-economic-flows-eng) I've decided to publish the letter directly. 

I'm still very much interested in what would be the answers to the second question posed in my letter. For this reason, I might send this letter and kindly ask them if they would be willing to answer underneath this post.  

## A Letter To The Top 20 Witnesses

Hi!

This letter will be sent to Ned Scott, Steemit Inc's CEO and all top 20 witnesses. I'll publish this letter and your answers in the coming 72 hours. 

I'm writing with the humble pursuit of improving Steem. I'll ask you 2 questions about linear rewards and provide my thoughts on the subject.   

The [original Steem Whitepaper](https://steemit.com/steem/@liondani/steem-whitepaper-download) states: 

> "If every voter defects by voting for themselves then no currency will end up distributed and the currency as a whole will fail to gain network effect."

It then argues: 

> "In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves, money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner." 

**1. Do you agree with this statement?**  
**2. If not, can you provide a refutation?** (Preferably, one made public prior to the implementation of linear reward.) 

The whitepaper's full argument is linked below.  

### Explanations

Ever since I've first read the Steem Whitepaper in April 2016, I've been intrigued as to why nonlinear rewards had been chosen. (As an aside, why less than 2 as an exponent wasn't chosen was partially explained in one of @vandeberg's [comment](https://steemit.com/steemit/@steemitblog/proposing-steem-equality-0-19-0-as-the-next-fork#@vandeberg/re-ats-david-re-personz-re-ats-david-re-steemitblog-proposing-steem-equality-0-19-0-as-the-next-fork-20170417t232548276z).) 

I had my reservations about linear rewards since then. Yet back when linear rewards were introduced, I've failed to fully wrap my head around the whitepaper's argument and thus I failed to express as many concerns as I wish I had. 

Today, I'm convinced linear rewards are fundamentally flawed and I've been in support of n^2 since at least November 2017. I'm unaware of any attempt by Steemit Inc to refute the original whitepaper's argument against linear reward.

### Steemit Inc Argues Against Linear Rewards

The last time Steemit Inc meaningfully argued for or against linear rewards, they've argued against linear rewards. Here's what the @steemitblog [says](https://steemit.com/steem/@steemitblog/details-on-proposed-comment-reward-curve): 

> **Ideal Curve**  

> In a world with honest people who don't vote on themselves to get "free money for nothing", a simple linear curve, aka n would produce a 1 share 1 vote proportional payout. This is the blue line and shows the ideal situation. 

> **Realistic Curve**  

> **Unfortunately, we live in a world where people will attempt to game the system by voting for themselves.** If everyone voted for themselves then the result would be simple interest payments and have no economic impact. We believe that groups are more honest in aggregate than individuals. We also believe that whales (accounts with over $500K Steem Power) have more to lose and are easier to police than the multitude of smaller accounts.

### Excerps from the Steem original whitepaper: 

I've partially reproduced the second part of the whitepaper's argument below. The full argument can be found under "Distributing Currency". 

[Even though n^2,]
> "creates financial incentive to collude where everyone votes on one thing and then divides the reward equally among themselves" 

[And under n^2]
>  "Larger shareholders... have even greater incentive to defect by voting for themselves than they had under a linear distribution." 

[those who have a large investment in a community]

> "... also have the most to lose by attempting to game the voting system for themselves. It would be like the CEO of a company deciding to stop paying salaries so he could pocket all of the profits. Everyone would leave to work for other companies and the company would become worthless, leaving the CEO bankrupt rather than wealthy.

> Fortunately, any work that is getting a large concentration of votes is also gaining the most scrutiny (publicity). Through the addition of negative-voting it is possible for many smaller stakeholders to nullify the voting power of collusive groups or defecting large stakeholders. Furthermore, large-stakeholders have more to lose if the currency falls in value due to abuse than they might gain by voting for themselves. **In fact, honest large stakeholders are likely to be more effective by policing abuse and using negative voting than they would be by voting for smaller contributions.**"

### Commentary

~~Linear rewards leave selfish upvoters at an advantage. Overall they can engage in the bare minimum amount of work (exclusive self-upvote) maximizing their ROI/influence/wealth, while the rest will inevitably see them diminish. (This "work" can easily be fully automated.)~~

~~Flagging doesn't solve the issue, as the flagged rewards are simply returned to the reward pool for anyone to grab, selfish and selfless upvoters alike. (Also, as the value of Steem grows, the incentives for greater ROI grows.)~~

Superlinear rewards don't prevent all abuses but aren't fundamentally flawed.  Investors set Steem's price not philanthropists. ROI is what they are looking for not how much they are giving away.  

### Conclusion

I've rehashed the original whitepaper's argument against linear rewards of which I haven't seen any valid rebuttal. I've asked 2 questions from which I hope a clearer picture can emerge to the benefit of everyone. 

Steem's stakes are huge for all of us. It would have been a lot less risks for me to accept the current status quo but I needed to stand up for what I'm convinced of and for which I haven't seen any valid rebuttal.   

### Edit: I'm opened to any solutions that could resolve the fundamental issues stated in my post. 

### Source

**Image**  
https://www.flickr.com/photos/159526894@N02/28405889658

**Steem Original Whitepaper**  
An incentivized, blockchain-based social media platform.  
[Daniel Larimer, Ned Scott, Valentine Zavgorodnev, Benjamin Johnson, James Calfee, Michael Vandeberg, March 2016]  
https://steemit.com/steem/@liondani/steem-whitepaper-download  
https://app.box.com/s/hmq5p0skko40vi55f8pi4j631sqe3los (PDF, props to @liondani)

**November Comment**

https://steemd.com/blocktrades/@teamsteem/re-pfunk-re-dan-re-biophil-re-dan-re-blocktrades-blocktrades-now-offering-steem-power-delegations-20171108t011611848z

<center> <a href="https://steemfest.com"><img src="https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmRMkAHumnEPDfPeekPBwqzpxfb99XWeJnBNKg6LgDEWd3/meet-me-at-steemfest-in-krakow.jpg" alt="Meet me at SteemFest 2018 in KrakΓ³w" /></a> </center>
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 929 others
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vote details (1000)
@abh12345 ·
$0.04
Yes is my short answer to question 1.

Do you think that this is urgent (before SMT urgent), or could be trialed in SMTs when they are ready, or can wait until after SMTs to be implemented 'here'?

With the ideas around a separate down-vote pool / less VP lost down-voting, and a change in the rewards split to 50/50, should these be trialed separately and/or together?

Despite the general feeling that something isn't right, I suspect Steem to soldier on to SMTs without changes.  The soldier could well be heavily wounded and smelling of his own crap, depending on the level of 'rent-keeping' before then.
πŸ‘  ,
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@teamsteem ·
$0.10
Yes! it is urgent. If not what should we tell people right now? Upvote yourself exclusively until the fix because if not you'll lose ROI to the most unscrupulous.

To the second question, I don't know. These measures onto themselves without some sort of superlinear don't seem to solve the issue. Less costly or free flagging still returns the rewards to the reward pool as I've already mentioned, leaving the loophole open. 

Different curation splits will affect the game only if some sort of superlinear reward is introduced.
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vote details (3)
@adriangiotto ·
The original Steem Whitepaper states:

"If every voter defects by voting for themselves then no currency will end up distributed and the currency as a whole will fail to gain network effect."

It then argues:

"In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves, money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner."

>>Yeah, there's a point here. The point is to circulate/distribute the currency thus create a network effect, right?
πŸ‘  
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@margbarrutti ·
I think so too, Bro! the currency should be circulating and so multiplying.
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@ajayyy ·
I disagree, this just gives more powerful to large SP selfvoters, it prevents nothing.
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@ajayyy · (edited)
$1.08
Flagged for abusing bid bots.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@alienbeing55 ·
I read this post almost twice to understand perfectly because this topic is new for me.

Thanks for sharing @teamsteem

β˜ΊοΈβ˜ΊοΈβ˜ΊοΈβ˜ΊοΈβ˜ΊοΈβ˜ΊοΈβ˜ΊοΈπŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘
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@anthonywong ·
$0.02
upvoted
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@anujjain815 ·
ok
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@arcange ·
Congratulations @teamsteem!
Your post was mentioned in the [Steemit Hit Parade](https://steemit.com/hit-parade/@arcange/daily-hit-parade-20181029) in the following categories:

* Comments - Ranked 2 with 147 comments
* Pending payout - Ranked 1 with $ 739,04
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@artopium ·
# You cannot "monetize" or "incentivize" the creation of "quality" content. 
Period. No matter how much One tinkers with rewards, whether linear or not, it does nothing to set the standards necessary to achieve any of the goals outlined in the whitepaper. Curation is not about achieving quality, it's about creating an addiction in the users of Steemit. @ned, why don't you tell these people about your psychological goals for the Steemit platform? Do they know you have a degree in Psychology as well as  Economics?  

### Did anybody bother to read this part of the whitepaper?

> The impact of this voting and payout distribution is
to offer large bounties for good content while still
rewarding smaller players for their long-tail contribu-
tion.
> The economic effect of this is similar to a lottery
where people overestimate their probability of getting
votes and thus do more work than the expected value
of their reward, thereby maximizing the total amount
of work performed in service of the community. **The fact that β€œeveryone wins something” plays on the same psychology that casinos use to keep people gambling.** In other words, small rewards help reinforce
the idea that it is possible to earn bigger rewards.

# Steemit is not about the curation of quality content, and no type of reward system will change that.

![You-keep-using-that-word.jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQme86mWDWFxpd6hds7hdHUuXu9gcAyfM3AJ2E8afvD7nNz/You-keep-using-that-word.jpg)

# [Quality Cannot Exist Without Standards](https://steemit.com/steemit/@artopium/quality-cannot-exist-without-standards)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@smooth ·
> Did anybody bother to read this part of the whitepaper?

Did you?

"large bounties for good content"

The white paper seems to claim that it does reward quality content.
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@ashish343 ·
Give $5, Get $5
Refer your friend and earn $5 when they complete a transaction for a minimum of $100. And guess what?? Your friend earns $5 too. Isn’t that awesome!! Check out CoinSwitch Referral Program - https://coinswitch.co/referral
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@miryam ·
Leaving unsolicited links on other people's posts is considered rude, and possibly spam, particularly with the number of phishing scams out there.
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@joseelnegro100 ·
yes
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@battleaxe ·
regardless of what side of the fence people are on with this topic it's encouraging dialogue/debate and interaction and I picked it as a featured post in the teamgood curation nation newsletter
thanks for the good you do on here and dialogue promotion
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@teamsteem ·
Aw thanks Axey! I do share this feeling that this dialogue was much warranted.
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@berniesanders · (edited)
Curation isn't worth it.

Flagging isn't worth it.

Posting isn't worth it.

Self-voting is frowned upon (and not worth it for most).

**Why should anyone buy Steem?  And an even better question, why should anyone convert to Steem Power?**
πŸ‘  , , ,
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (5)
@freebornangel ·
And how the hell do smt's given away to 'reward creators' convince me to let go of my steem, let alone btc?

I still haven't seen any use cases, outside experimental reward curves, that make me think I need to buy me some sweet steemapp coin.
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@berniesanders ·
$0.02
First you have to believe there will be SMT's.
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πŸ‘Ž  , ,
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vote details (6)
@najoh ·
I do buy steem every week because it's worth it, for 300 bucks you can be on the trending page and be viewed by everyone.
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@mentalhealthguru ·
$0.18
and still no one cares about your shit posts
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@nokodemion ·
Enough said... agreed completely, pay to play this inflation/dilution game to break even if you are insane enough to author/curate 24h a day, 365 days a year...

Why should anyone buy into steem or smt? 

Can someone from "The Management Team" answer this question?
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@pagandance ·
The first post I totally agree with @berniesanders. Am I going soft?
πŸ‘  
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (2)
@billmega ·
You earned this resteem and vote.πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦
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@bitcoindollar ·
$0.04
Crypto currency would be good in every run , long short and medium term I am with you
πŸ‘  
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (2)
@blocktrades ·
$1.74
Curation rewards aren't linear now. They are only linear relative to stake. They are not linear in time: early voters gain versus later voters. This one point alone destroys this entire argument that rewards must be superlinear relative to stake voted.
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vote details (7)
@tarazkp ·
Is there a way to change the algorithm at this level to better encourage curation or is it only possible through the percentage ratio?
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@blocktrades ·
$1.00
It may help to improve the algorithm at this level, but not if percentages aren't changed, because at 25% shared between all curators and 75% going to the author, the curators are mostly fighting for table scraps.
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vote details (6)
@teamsteem ·
$0.06
Even if we give 100% to curators, the best ROI remains exclusives self-upvotes.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@teamsteem ·
Thank you for your input @blocktrades. Could you please explain how it makes the original whitepaper's argument invalid?
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@blocktrades · (edited)
$0.83
The existing non-linearity already gives an incentive to curators  to vote on posts that other people will also likely vote on rather than simply self-voting.

The reason this doesn't work well in practice is at least in part to the fact that most of the rewards go to the author rather than the curators under the current rules.

The other problem is few people understand the real rules which are essentially undocumented and end up fighting shadows.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@transisto ·
Pointing to the whitepaper and appealing to Steemit, I feel like I'm listening to a BCASHer.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@boomerang ·
This post has received a 86.59 % upvote from @boomerang.
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@brightprogrammer ·
nice post
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vote details (1)
@cjturtleman ·
$0.05
Very interesting!
πŸ‘  
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@cowboysblog ·
I'm fairly new here but I think as a newbie you need the ability to upvote yourself in the beginning as a means to build yourself up. Maybe there should be a monetary cutoff switch where at some point you can't upvote yourself based on your own sp.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
πŸ‘  
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@berniesanders ·
Then what's the point of buying Steem?  So you can reward others?  That's fucking stupid.
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@cowboysblog ·
That's a good point but aren't you gaining by curating with a higher SP? 

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@cowboysblog ·
Honestly, I'm torn about the issue because I understand the argument both ways. What are your thoughts on it?

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@cryptopie · (edited)
#### I just hope that good will prevail for the good of steem community, nothing more to say @teamsteem
May God bless you all and give you more wisdom and upholding justice.
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@danielvehe ·
Spontaneous order yes, democrecy no
Steem and blockchain technology is inspired by freedom and decentralization. In reality, there is still a long way to go because there are groups that want to dominate and have a monopoly on power. I do not see any sense in a vote between 20 witnesses to decide on the life on this platform of hundreds of thousands of people ...

Why not leave the decision to each person?
That each one chooses the option that he wants in his publication, as well as decides if the reward is 50-50, 100% or without reward, it can also be included that decides on the distribution between the curator and the author. So I could choose between for example: 75-25 / 60-40 / 50-50 / 100 curator or 100% author ... this could also give clues about which is the best possible distribution, we will see the reaction of the curator seeing what is the distribution and deciding whether to vote or not.

A way could be devised so that the curators can easily find their favorite option, so if someone likes to vote 100% for the curator, he can easily get it, of course surely there will not be many posts in this option. This could be a great experience to determine how the community thinks, even with this you could make better decisions
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@dobartim ·
Excellent point of view
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@teamsteem ·
$0.05
I'm glad you're joining this conversation @dobartim!
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@dobartim ·
I have a totally different concept from Steemit if we want to have a massive number of new users and a large number of successful bloggers. 

1. We need to make a referral system, in this way we get a lot of users and investors.

2. I would reduce the earnings of investors to 65% for personal voting on personal posts.

3. 10% would get a user from voting on other posts.

4. 25% 25% would be divided into 5 levels of depth of 5% on the referral-network marketing system from all earnings on posts and comments.

5. I would put conditions that must be fulfilled on a daily and weekly basis if we want to have a profit of 5 depths. 

In this way, we get a great mass of new users-investors and a great quality of posts and activities. The focus on technology is great, but the focus on the network of people is even better because it brings money, the value of Steem and Steemit, and we all benefit from it.


The reward system is ok, this is not a web site for donations, Steemit is a business network and we need to align it with the social masses and I give a proposal that I am very sure to work in the interest of all users.

I would like to see you at SteemFest but I'm not in a position because I have scheduled business days. 

If you want, I invite you to see us in Macedonia, Skopje after SteemFest.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@eihm50 ·
Uremises you’re working from appear different from most. Contrary to the post, reality is that rewards are still non linear today via dust, human appreciation for contributions, and curation.

Beyond that, it’s my philosophy that it’s important to stay open open-mindedd aptable while building a currency and that is why I described Steem as an Experiment in the Whitepaper.
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@eonwarped · (edited)
$0.18
> Linear rewards leave selfish upvoters at an advantage. Overall they can engage in the bare minimum amount of work (exclusive self-upvote) maximizing their ROI/influence/wealth, while the rest will inevitably see them diminish. (This "work" can easily be fully automated.)

This statement doesn't seem to be true at all. It's quite evident that giving large stakeholders a larger say under superlinear makes it even more profitable to self upvote. That's primarily why I believe any superlinear proposal needs to not be pure n^x but with a return to linear as the stake increases.

So no, #1 I do not entirely agree with, and funnily enough I haven't really seen a convincing argument for it either. Hell, the curve doesn't appear to matter for maximizers, no matter how you roll. And you need to distinguish between "passive investors" (if you can even call it that), who will choose the laziest way of accumulating tokens regardless of what system you throw at them.

Possibly the only thing I've seen in here that might matter is the statement "less large stakeholders are easy to police" but um.... nope, I don't think this is true. It's not true now, it wasn't true during n^2 (correct if wrong), and it won't be true if we go back.
πŸ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@eonwarped · (edited)
Since this very basic observation seems to be ignored, there must be some sort of reference debunking what I'm saying (superlinear makes self voting more effective for large stakeholders, all else being equal). Someone kindly provide me with it. Or possibly a simple thing stating that I'm not looking at the right thing at all.
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@eonwarped ·
Ok, answering my own question:

Found a table that cited the effects on the weights [here](https://steemit.com/steemit/@vandeberg/re-hanshotfirst-re-steemitblog-proposing-steem-equality-0-19-0-as-the-next-fork-20170417t182202906z).  This table was initially surprising to me, but actually it's missing the higher tiers that control pretty much the entire rewards pool (though I'm not even sure what the distribution looked like back then). But at least now I see the point people were trying to make: actually makes it so pretty much only one person can self-vote (the fellow at the very top).  

So it appears that there is something I missed in terms of discussing power and self-voting, being highly dependent on the distribution, but still, it is wholly dependent on who on the top is on top exercising their high SP votes, and that would still be of concern to me.

But it boils down to the following: The real reason people are claiming self-voting power is reduced is because the total number of people that can self vote effectively is reduced to just the biggest whales (top 10 lol....). But this is still pretty concerning to me. Here's what it sounds like to me:

Before: Nobody can self vote, look at that. (But there's like a handful of posts getting *all* the rewards, what the heck?)
After: Oh look, we have more even distribution, but there are more self-voters.

The diversity of content being rewarded has increased, has it not? Is it, or is it not an improvement over the old system? Self-voters is a problem, but concentration is a large problem too, and I now see why superlinear does not work when the existing distribution of wealth is how it is.

I think I just summarized the arguments on both sides. Pick your poison, I guess. If you ask me, I prefer linear.
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@steemquestions · (edited)
Fully agree. I remember SteemIt before non-linear rewards. It was abysmal. Changing rules constantly actually undermines faith in SteemIt.

(I want to re-steem a comment)
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@experiment ·
Hi @teamsteem  I'm a bot, and wanted you to know that I've upvoted and re-steemed your post to help you with your promotion efforts!  -exp
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@faiz07 ·
support my writings by visiting my blog
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (1)
@frdem3dot0 ·
Hi @teamsteem,

I made a full post in reply to your question: [post](https://steemit.com/steem/@frdem3dot0/superlinear-rewards-sublinear-rc-s)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@freebornangel ·
$0.03
Your approach might work with a reasoned opponent, but this was arbitrary.
Same with downvotes being separated from flags.

Its not no because reasons, its no because i said so.

Petty tyranny is petulant, and unlikely to repond to reason, ergo, the resistance to sound arguments.

Good luck.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@teamsteem ·
$0.02
I share some of your frustrations. 

I have vested interest in Steem and thus I'm still looking to improve it to the best of my ability. I appreciate your input @freeborangel
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@berniesanders ·
Who would waste so much time for an $11k account?  That's my question to you.
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@freebornangel ·
Can I get a reason to buy an smt?
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@friendsforever ·
Nice..
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@heimindanger · (edited)
$0.49
`In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves, money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner.`

Which implies that `Self voting is a losing strategy if curve is non-linear`

But then... if we just look at what happens under n^x with x>1 reward schemes, we realize that actually, if everyone self-votes, then this statement is false. It's true for the minnows who have less than the 'average stake', but it's false for all the whales who will earn more than under linear rewards. So **1. False**

Under linear rewards, if everyone self-votes and we ignore witness rewards, STEEM's distribution becomes similar to a 100% PoS system like many others, which is arguably more fair (self-voting is only a break-even strategy, not a winning one).

I believe the way everyone thinks about this issue to be biased by steemit developers. The way STEEM has been coded makes the need for a 'reward curve'. **What if we just changed the distribution algorithm in the first place instead of wanting to change the 'curve' that plugs into the existing algorithm?**
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
πŸ‘Ž  , , , , , , , ,
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@berniesanders ·
### @heimindanger is bigot trash who refers to people as "fag".  Look at his comment history and you'll see just what a piece of shit he truly is!!
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@heimindanger ·
Keep on downvoting me... I'll just keep on reposting. Not only I ruined your blog but now I also ruin your VP.
πŸ‘  
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (2)
@teamsteem · (edited)
$0.02
Under superlinear the majority of rewards are distributed through consensus not self-upvote. This is what we had observed. You can verify this through old screenshots of steemwhales.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@heimindanger ·
So you are saying that basically before linear rewards, people were self-voting less than now? That seems true from observation, but a lot of other economical changes happened at the same time than linear rewards. The powerdown time was changed for example too.

Also, I suppose you consider bidbot delegation schemes to be the same than self-voting, and the bidbot industry started to exist because of linear rewards (it became easier to code), however I don't see how they would go away today if we re-changed, they would just adapt their code, and as they are the biggest whales on the network today, they would profit the most from the change.

So I'm not even sure the observation is linked with the HF17 (or was it 18?) econ changes, maybe it's just that something else developped at the same time that turned the network toxic and induced people to defend their stake by self-voting more.
πŸ‘  ,
πŸ‘Ž  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (10)
@heimindanger ·
$0.41
In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves, money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner.

Which implies that Self voting is a losing strategy if curve is non-linear

But then... if we just look at what happens under n^x with x>1 reward schemes, we realize that actually, if everyone self-votes, then this statement is false. It's true for the minnows who have less than the 'average stake', but it's false for all the whales who will earn more than under linear rewards. So 1. False

Under linear rewards, if everyone self-votes and we ignore witness rewards, STEEM's distribution becomes similar to a 100% PoS system like many others, which is arguably more fair (self-voting is only a break-even strategy, not a winning one).

I believe the way everyone thinks about this issue to be biased by steemit developers. The way STEEM has been coded makes the need for a 'reward curve'. What if we just changed the distribution algorithm in the first place instead of wanting to change the 'curve' that plugs into the existing algorithm?

*reposted comment because first one downvoted by facists*
πŸ‘  , , ,
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (5)
@hlezama ·
This dilemma, I think, has divided the platform in apparently unreconcilable bands.
I don't quite understand the numbers, but I wonder if there have been in-between options proposed so that the whales and dolphins (as some of them have expressed) do not see it as a waste of their hard-worked resources to vote for other people's posts (increase of curation percentage, proportional to SP?).
The thing is that some users have blantantly expressed that they don't see it right/fair to benefit others with their votes , as if others are not doing the same with theirs, especially minnows. It's a sad reflection of the inequalities of the "real" world and no matter how oftern it is stated that people have equal opportunity to make the same amount of money/SP, here we can see how much complicated that can be.
Maybe the end result of this dispute will be the corroboration of close humanity is from salvation or damnation (and I'm only losely using the terms in their religious denotation).
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@teamsteem ·
It is not unreconcilable. Steem is evolving.
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@hlezama ·
That's encouraging. I really hope so.
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@humblebishop ·
This letter actually addressed some issues but too lengthy
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@jaki01 ·
$0.37
I really would like to see some answers from the addressed people here ...

I am not a witness, and you know my point of view already to agree that a linear reward curve favors self-voting too much, indeed, but that I personally would prefer a curve which starts non-linear (against self-voting) and ends linear (against excessive rewards of single posts).

Anyway: good that you keep asking these important questions!
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@sihirbaz ·
what is it useful to us
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@jaki01 ·
$0.21
@teamsteem (in his article above) and I (in my comment and <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/conciliation-of-the-reward-curves-die-versoehnung-der-reward-kurven">here</a>) wrote already what we think is useful ... But of course there are many different opinions.
I would like to read the point of views of top witnesses here, too!
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vote details (4)
@teamsteem ·
$0.08
> I really would like to see some answers from the addressed people here ...

Amen!
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@jaraumoses ·
I will be waiting for the intellectual discussion among witnesses here so that i can also learn since I am neither a whale nor a witness!

I came across this [post two weeks back](https://steemit.com/fulltimefucktard/@berniesanders/day-2-of-dealing-with-fulltimefucktard),what do you have to say about it??
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@teamsteem ·
I'm glad to read this!
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@jesusescobar ·
awesome
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (1)
@jojivenna03 ·
I agree with the above statement exactly it's ah nice statement @teamsteem
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (1)
@ketopian · (edited)
#### suggestions:
- link the voting influence of the lowest powered account to the higheat using a more balanced ratio,  I recommend  5:1. 

-  obtain self votes by voting on others, 1:1 ratio. 

- implement a vote to consume design so that users must first upvote content before having full access.  

- remove the 6 day payout limit, this insured that good quality content can be supported by future visitors and will favor quality over quantity. 

- implement notifications for unreplied comments and replies. 

- allow voting to maximum daily allowance, allowing users to use maximum daily voting power on a single piece of content.  This will cut down on spam voting.  

i’d love to read what’s you opinion on my comment as it’ll help me in understanding the situation more and support me in more targeted and constructive thinking to resolve the current challenges.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong · (edited)
$0.25
It's still okay to post a lot and self-vote a lot under the proposed changed in economic incentives (not sure if OP agrees to all the items in the proposal). It'd just no longer the most efficient move for rewards most users. There'll be outliers of course, but I'll address that later. 

Better not to mix up what's best for every individual and new user on the network with what's best for the platform, Steem. The latter should be as equally as important as the former. There's too much of a huge cost involved in linear atm, and it's not like linear has any shades like how we can define mild, medium, and extremely *superlinear*. Linear is just linear. It provides a different economical *modality* compared to superlinear.

Linear gives everyone efficiently priced votes, an immediately exploitable feature for anyone to undercut Steem's economy (attention, marketprice) anytime and without risk of overwhelming objections. It can be observed, experienced, and they even check out economically.

Linear creates a perpetually disarrayed attention economy and a discounted pool of Steem, which actually goes against the best long-term interest of stakeholders. We've also learned that n<sup>2</sup> is too much so we should go for a softer measure. At least superlinear has different shades, unlike linear.

This is why some of us have proposed somewhere in between linear, n and n<sup>2</sup>. We just need most of the benefits of superlinear at low-cost, which is why some of us have chosen n<sup>1.3</sup> as a ballpark figure. The other two proposal items like 50% curation rewards and a 10% separate downvote pool to plug most of the potential leaks and outliers, but I'll leave everyone to refer to @trafalgar's recent post on it for more info. It's a shame if we were only just supposed to flatten out n<sup>2</sup> for its extreme effect, but instead of going to n<sup>1.x</sup>, we end up with linear (n<sup>1</sup>) simply because it's way easier to implement? There's a fundamental difference between linear and superlinear.

Thanks for the post @teamsteem, I wish more would look into the economical significance between linear vs superlinear, and why we should move away from what we have today. After the proposed changes, I know I would no longer heavily upvote my dog, cat, cousins, and friends who are generally not very good content creators, unless they improve and become more competitive over time. At least I know the proposed "new economy" isn't going to be actively discouraging stakeholders from rewarding great contributions. 

Let's not get muddled up in our need to reward all of our activities on the network. Rewards and activities are separate. We can still post all day and night and vote ourselves, it's just not immediately the most efficient move for rewards anymore under the proposed changes. Instead, curation will be on the same level, if not better. Maybe I like to post a lot, it doesn't mean that I'd want to vote on my own stuff all the time if the economy doesn't encourage it (not as profitable to do so unless other curators really like my stuff). Curation is where it's at. That's what SP is all about.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@teamsteem ·
>  I wish more would look into the economical significance between linear vs superlinear, and why we should move away from what we have today. 

I fully agree. I wish more people would have joined the discussion.
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@knircky · (edited)
$2.76
I wrote my response here: 

https://steem-bounty.com/bounty/steem/knircky/non-linear-reward-is-fundamentally-unfair


I want to write this as a direct response to this post: https://steemit.com/steem/@teamsteem/why-i-advice-against-linear-reward and the very direct question that is asked:


![snipteam.JPG](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmQ55efZEGL3GM9d6ibvFh3izavjMHsZaa5gpGMBTwdoVf/snipteam.JPG)

Teamsteem, first off thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think as a big holder of SP you probably have seen many of the effects you describe first hand. 

I do not agree with the statement. It may not be wrong but I don't think it is the most relevant question.
I do not think steem can be fixed by removing the linear reward curve.

The problem of the money distribution is that is too concentrated, in my opinion. In order to have network effect we need many users. 

Yes! 

The hardest thing to do for a cryptocurrency is to distribute its supply among many users in a fair way that generates value. That to me seems the relevant question. This is generic question any blockchain project must solve. And I don't think it has been solved effectively yet.

Clearly we suck at that. As a result we have a situation where all of the wealth is super concentrated. Out of a million users not even 300 reallly matter and if we had 10 million more that won't actually change.

The other relevant question that is specific for steem in my eyes is also how do we generate great content and support and attract content producers. Since we want to be a content platform.

But what you address first and foremost addresses distribution.

So since the problem we have right now is that SP is too concentrated among few users. I mean 0.1% hold all the relevant SP. If we have nonlinear distribution than those %0.1 just get even more power than they already hold.

How does that solve anything!?? Self voting and vote selling is not actually the problem. Just because everything thinks it is does not make it so.

I think that self voting is totally fine according to the design of the steem right now. I am not saying that self voting is a desired feature, but it is a feature by design at this time. If you hold X amount of SP you simply have the right to distribute X amount of reward. That is fair. It is simple proof of stake in that regard. Any time a user does not self vote they simply are kind and reward others by choice. So what you propose simply creates an unfair system for the rich and as a result becomes bad for everyone but the richest users. Yes it will dis-incentice self voting a bit, but won't actually solve it (still better to give yourself something vs lots to others) and create a huge problem on top of it: more concentration and unfairness for the reward distribution.

I believe that if you want to prevent self voting and vote selling than you would have to redesign steem fundamentally, such as by implementing an ID system so this could properly implemented. Today ID is not possible or has not been implemented by any other party than Goverments.

So the most imporant aspect is to have fair distribution and then we would need good distribution. But we cannot have good distribution without it being fair. As a result I believe what you are calling for is counterproductive. What I mean is that solving self voting may be good, but we cannot do it at the cost of unfair distribution. Fair distribution is far more important that not being able to accrue interest for your holdings.

The reason why content is not rewarded right now is because we have not actually built a platform for content, but at least the linear distribution of rewards is fair in a sense.

If we want to reward content we need to build on having a system that focus more on content discovery and rewarding good content. Simply making distribution less fair is not going to turn this platform in a content platform.

So in summary I am on your side and feel the need to make steem better and particularly make it so that more coins get distributed among users that create great content. I do feel we need a different solution than non-linear distribution as it makes the reward system fundamentally unfair. 
This "un-fairness" is quite obvious and as such won't be accepted.


What are your thoughts?
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vote details (5)
@teamsteem · (edited)
> The reason why content is not rewarded right now is because

people are creatures that evolved to self-preserve and thus on a whole or average, will seek to get the most for themselves i.e. best ROI. Selflessness is not the default behavior even though it's not necessarily uncommon in many situations.  

The current model advantages the selfish while disadvantaging the selfless. The selfish SP owners will self-upvote as much as possible while the selfless upvote will see their ROI/influence/wealth diminish at the expense of the selfish.
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@knircky ·
$0.16
Yes by the design the self-voting, or selling of votes is standard thing to do on steem. Its a proof of stake system. Stake = reward. 

Steem has been designed this way. Your approach would not change this fact at all but simply make it so that only the richest get all the rewards.

Currently 1x stake gives everyone 1x reward.

You propose that all of the rewards goes to a few whales. How does that help? How would this spread coins among more users? 


How is this helpful for the purpose of all?

So overall I agree with you we need to make this better, especially make it so that more content producers get more rewards. But I believe your proposal is counterproductive
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@krnel ·
$0.15
And when only those with the most SP are the fewest amount of accounts, they decide who does and doesnt get rewarded, yet they can't curate the whole platform to vote for everyone's content. When whales stopped voting for a few months, the community decided more, rather than a few who had the concentrated power to decide who gets rewarded. N2 might be better with whales not voting, but not when they do and essentially control most.of the reward allocation on the platform. Unless you want a few ppl to handle voting for who does/doesnt get rewarded on the whole platform, its not good as i see it...
πŸ‘  , ,
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@captainklaus ·
it's interesting that it's the same problem of power-distribution like in the world out there. maybe steemit didn't emancipate enough? what's about a curve that directs most of the power to most of the people?!
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@teamsteem ·
Thank you for your comment. However, you haven't answered the questions.
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@libertyacademy ·
**TU AVAIS TOTALLEMENT RAISON MON AMI!**

You were right to post your question *directly here* instead of going about it privately, as just look at the number of votes (**909 as of now, 273 comments + $722.59 for this post alone!**) which speaks volumes. I've never seen a post with so many responses since I've been on this platform.

We can see that Steemit has managed to **politicize the issue** rather than address it in a way that was inclusive and beneficial to the community. This is further exacerbated by the manner in which the CEO of Steemit @ned lost his ability to reason logically in response to your, very reasonable, tactful, and most polite, request. 

He does stopped the conversation - for all to see -  in the thread between you and him. Pretty lame.

En tout cas, je te supporte jusqu'a la fin.

A+
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@lostrapt ·
Very gooD read, right now if you don’t self vote you are β€œlosing” to everyone else.
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@majidmughal ·
Just signup and earn free token upto $17 for free
https://app.truwho.com/login?ref=hnt5NIB25G
πŸ‘Ž  ,
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vote details (2)
@majidmughal ·
Just signup and earn free token upto $17 for free
https://app.truwho.com/login?ref=hnt5NIB25G
πŸ‘  
πŸ‘Ž  ,
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@majowonline ·
Good point, im not a supporter of lines either.
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@margbarrutti ·
good point! Steemians must help build, establish, grow and multiply the crypto world. at the end of the way, we all will benefit from this.
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@demarcoaug9 ·
yes, we really should!
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@mielia ·
Is this your main argument:
> "In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves, money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner."

?
If yes, I have to disappoint you, this is not an argument. It has the form of an argument. To get a), we must have b).
The issue is, it is simply a statement. Out of the statement is nowhere to be seen why out of b) we should get a). The content doesn't deliver that. **The content of a) is not necessarily connected to b).**
Out of b) 'money [...] distributed in a nonlinear manner' does **not necessarily** *follow*
a) 'realign[s] incentives and discourage[s] individuals from simply voting for themselves.'

You would have to show why these two are related.

Also helpful for average users would be
+ explain linear, non-linear - here non-linear higher n^1, e.g. n^1,3 and n^2 also separately explained - in this context
+ make examples, so everyone can concretely understand.

As I understand it, linear means, 1 vote has the effect of its voting power (vote1 1,20$+vote2 0,50$+ vote3 0,20$ is 2,00$ payout)
non-linear higher than 1 would mean that the next additional vote is multiplied with the factor (e.g. if n^1,3 then vote 1 1,20$+ vote2 1,3x050=0,65$ + vote3 1,3x1,3x0,20=0,34$ is 2,19$ payout).  

Or in other words: The more votes cumulate on a post, the higher the payout by some factor (not simply by the power of the votes itself).
As this last sentence I have understood this idea.

**Why could this be a bad idea?** "refutation" "rebuttal"

Get in the minds of the ones who still wish only to self-serve. Such whales will simply open up lots and lots of accounts and thus increase the number of votes.
**Negative:**
+ Persons who are capable and willing to build bots (large number of accounts connected) have the advantage
+ This consumes a lot more RC resources for the blockchain because everyone of these accounts will additionally stress the blockchain. 

**positive:**
None, everything remains the same (self-serving people still self-serve).

This is the same nonsense articulated in 50/50 posts which go on and on about self-votes. Self-votes won't decrease with 50/50 (this is still the most profitable obviously with 50+x vs. max. 50) and without self-voting it will also not vanish because you can achieve the same via second accounts aka voting circles.

Thus
a) no refutation was needed because it wasn't even an argument (if the quoted text is indeed the argument)
b) still refutation via a comparison to now delivered.
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@teamsteem ·
> If yes, I have to disappoint you, this is not an argument. It has the form of an argument. 

The rest of the argument is in the whitepaper. I even stated it. 

> The whitepaper's full argument is linked below.

I thought about explaining linear reward vs superlinear but the post was first intended to those who already knew the situation or were vested enough to learn about it themselves as I had provided the sourced material. 

> non-linear higher than 1 would mean that the next additional vote is multiplied with the factor (e.g. if n^1,3 then vote 1 1,20$+ vote2 1,3x050=0,65$ + vote3 1,3x1,3x0,20=0,34$ is 2,19$ payout).

You got that wrong. Did you read the full argument from the whitepaper?

It's all rshares^1,3. All rshares a post received added together then ^1,3 not each of them individually ^1,3. 

Thank you for your inputs.
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@mielia ·
No of course I did not again read 44 pages of whitepaper.

This is what I asked of you: Explain more detailedly.
Adding
> This mirrors the value of network effect which grows with ​​​the number of participants [...]

to the two sentences would have already helped.
and saying that the paragraph "Voting on Distribution of Currency" is the one that is important to you.

> You got that wrong. 

I was well aware of that I very much could be wrong, only made an example. An example of an example even.
So thanks for the correction. Still, next time, a short example calculation would help (in the article).

Interesting that you didn't answer the (main) points:

> Or in other words: The more votes cumulate on a post, the higher the payout by some factor (not simply by the power of the votes itself).

> Why could this be a bad idea? "**refutation**" "rebuttal"

> Get in the minds of the ones who still wish only to self-serve. Such whales will simply open up lots and lots of accounts and thus increase the number of votes.
**Negative:**

    Persons who are capable and willing to build bots (large number of accounts connected) have the advantage.
    This consumes a lot more RC resources for the blockchain because every one of these accounts will additionally stress the blockchain.


But after all: You read it. So thanks for reading!
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@moghul ·
$0.06
I’m just a minnow.
I have been observing some of the accounts on steemit. People with high steem power would want minnows votes but only a minority upvote to the comments made by minnows even if they are good comments. They preserve their vote power and sell their votes. This is unethical and very wrong.
I used to get very annoyed and frustrated until i came across posts by @trafalgar and @holm that the people are not the ones to blame but the steemit economic system is flawed.
Vote buying, vote selling and self voting should be restricted or stopped if possible.

Thanks for your post
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@muhaimunkhan ·
Nice
properties (22)
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@ned · (edited)
> "In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves, money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner."

The premises you’re working from appear different from most. Contrary to the post, reality is that rewards are still non linear today via dust, human appreciation for contributions, and curation.

Beyond that, it’s my philosophy that it’s important to stay open minded and adaptable while building a currency and that is why I described Steem as an Experiment in the Whitepaper.
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vote details (10)
@berniesanders · (edited)
### @ned delegates to @dtube
### @dtube is run by @heimindanger
### @heimindanger is a bigot who routinely refers to people as "fag" in a derogatory manner.
### Does @ned support bigotry?  
<br>


![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmTaJmFcgNvoLLKvoFhWWtrFue57P3p2mokL9yvZ4ofFS2/image.png)
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@darsana ·
nice.
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πŸ‘Ž  
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@libertyacademy ·
$0.04
Dear @ned , a bit off-topic and alhough I am a small minnow here on Steemit I am hoping your can answer this: 

**WHY was the viewcount (eyeball) feature that use to be near the other indicators for our posts (such as upvote, votes, comments) regarding our post was REMOVED** a few months back?

I've asked many witnesses but none could tell me why Steemit decided to do this.

This really puzzles and dissapoints me (along with countless other Steemians), as it was the BEST indicator to see how many people were actually having a look at our posts.

I see absolutely no advantage of this feature having being removed (unless I am missing something), as it certainly didn't take up much space on the screen. 

**Any possibility of getting this feature (post view count) back?**

Other than that I love this platform and am very grateful for all you guys do for us.

Sincerely,

@libertyacademy
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properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@coolpeopleifb ·
$0.03
@ned @libertyacademy 

WHY was the viewcount (eyeball) feature that use to be near the other indicators for our posts (such as upvote, votes, comments) regarding our post was REMOVED a few months back?

wow. That would be great to see. I am also new to this platform. Writing and Creating. Id like to see what my efforts are doing traffic wise, as votes are minimal.
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@eco-alex ·
i heard it wasnt accurate.. its possible that spiders and search engine bots could easily mess with the real numbers.. and indeed it could be abused by people to artificially inflate it.. just a guess really as im not sure if the views included page loads from people without accounts.
properties (22)
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@najoh ·
A pixel tracking could do this, very easy to implement.
πŸ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@pagandance ·
best comment in this whole thread
πŸ‘  ,
πŸ‘Ž  
properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@programmingvalue ·
$0.08
The viewcount is okay, but it's only view count from Steemit.com. There are so many other Steem websites that can generate views.
πŸ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@sorin.lite ·
$0.06
The answer back then (the question had been asked many times) was that it was "easy to manipulate" (simply reloading the page with F5 apparently) and therefore irrelevant or worse, misguiding. I am not convinced at all by that argument. 

Knowing how many people have actually read a post or watched a video is **extremely** useful. The fact that the "viewcount" indicator was not perfect and could be manipulated should have been a reason to **IMPROVE IT** in order to make it more precise, not to remove it all together!

It's like: "Oh, you twisted your ankle and are limping now! It would seem that this leg is not helping you walk well! How sad! ... I'll therefore saw off your leg altogether, so you'll be rid of this bad leg that's making you limp!"
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vote details (3)
@moradel95 ·
asi mismo
properties (22)
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@paulavasquez ·
Hello I'm Paula I'm from Peru I'm 19 years old and I found this page that I love the people that follow me I'll be following https://steemit.com/@paulavasquez
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (1)
@phoneinf ·
$0.08
It's a great experiment. Will take many years to see how it will play out. One big thing that I have noticed is that when something get's backed by a large stake holder that builds up massive trust in the network. That is when magic happens. These I trust you moments that happens from time to time. That is real wealth. Solid networks of deep Trust. 

That will say targeted leverage is what seems to make the best moves in a network. Spreading everything too thin, no trust being created. A few empowered brave souls can move waters. People with big dreams that get leverage. Some are better than others to create leverage effects. 

So for example my experience with being a content creator and get leverage from dtube every upvote creates a stronger "I trust you" network effect. It creates massive loyalty in the long term perspective. This is not something that can be looked at in ROI since it's a long game strategy. But the fruits and ROI from that will take a longer time to see. As Steem is just 2 and soon 3 years old I feel people are too fast to come to conclusions about the network. So being open minded is what I also try to be. 

I see the Steem Blockchain as an experiment in creating Trust between various nodes in a network. And that it can only survive if the nodes starts to Trust and Listen to each other to create a truly empowered node network. But then people have to see the real value which is relationships and loyalty and having bigger visions. Looking beyond wealth. A very powerful Trust network and Tokens wouldn't even be needed after a while. Since the vision would be higher and more evolved where to take things. 

I see stake holders at this moment worry about ROI for the moment which makes me question their long term views if they worry about ROI for the moment it does seem like they are not looking at the longer perspective of 5-10 years down the line. Looking at every moment in ROI terms makes human relationships into a small thing. This movement is bigger than short term profits that is a big focus for many. Humans need sort of to evolve into something that looks beyond the short term. 

Thanks again for a great whitepaper and Steem experiment!
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πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (12)
@paulavasquez ·
Hello I'm Paula I'm from Peru I'm 19 years old and I found this page that I love the people that follow me I'll be following https://steemit.com/@paulavasquez
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vote details (2)
@sulkiflih ·
Good news
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@teamsteem ·
$0.13
Indeed it's none linear via dust. I'm not arguing against this. 

Indeed Steem is an experiment and we should remain open minded. I haven't argued against this either. 

You haven't argued against what I've argued.  Your comment doesn't answer the questions my post is raising.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (9)
@jesusd ·
uno gana dinero por comentar?
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@ned ·
> You haven't argued against what I've argued. Your comment doesn't answer the questions my post is raising.

Why should I answer anything here, especially to the OP where the logic is broken?  I’ve talked about these Economics in many places over years on Steem, even I suppose with you, and here you are stiff-arming (expecting?) (demanding?) responses and different opinions from the same ol folks.

Here’s one: https://steemit.com/steem/@ned/re-dana-edwards-re-ned-steem-needs-you-20181017t014522825z
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@tipu ·
This comment is supported by $10.39 @tipU upvote funded by @phoneinf :)<br><strong><a href="https://busy.org/@tipu/tipu-voting-service-quick-guide-updated-05-10-2018" rel="noopener">@tipU voting service guide</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@tipu/tipu-update-steem-monsters-lottery-added-d" rel="noopener">STEEM Monsters Lottery</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@tipu/tipu-introducing-swap-quick-steem-sbd-exchange" rel="noopener">Quick SBD <-> STEEM Exchange</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@tipu/receiving-daily-profit-with-tipu-quick-guide" rel="noopener">For investors</a></strong>.
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vote details (2)
@num11 ·
Thanks for the story
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@phusionphil ·
I agree with the underlying principal of what youre saying, I specifcally find 3 to 5 new users every day (new to me not new to steem) and make sure I comment and interact with them along with upvote any human meaningful posts I see.

So I don't think the network needs any code changes in regards to this issue, just maybe some better networking from the users.
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@pitar ·
Hello @teamsteem 
My name is @pitar 
I came out with this 

Please encourage me 

https://youtu.be/I9FUMcO9CF0

I need more steem to do better one that gonna cover all.. 

God bless you @teamsteem
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@pitar ·
Hello @teamsteem 
My name is @pitar 
I came out with this 

The song is dedicated to steemjet community 

Please encourage me 

https://youtu.be/I9FUMcO9CF0

I need more steem to do better one that gonna cover all.. 



God bless steem 
God bless you @teamsteem
πŸ‘  
πŸ‘Ž  ,
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vote details (3)
@programmingvalue ·
$0.08
Glad to see that you're starting hard conversations around improving Steem.
πŸ‘  ,
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@reseller ·
<center>

You've made the Steemit Minute for today! Congrats!

Check out the Video Here: https://steemit.com/news/@reseller/dblagp9j

</center>
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@sacred-agent · (edited)
@TeamSteem... Excellent Questions & Very Valid points of concern...

Will be Good to hear the answers/discussions/responses because a lot is at stake...

Thank You TeamSteem    

Cheers !!
πŸ‘  , ,
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@teamsteem ·
Cheers @sacret-agent!
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@shivakumarhm ·
Thank steem explain about liner reward and non liner reward..
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@smooth ·
Downvoted in response to excessive reward
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@sorin.lite ·
$7.98
The issue of engagement and of distributing wealth in proportion with perceived quality of contribution is real and very important. However the proposed solution is simplistic and has been argued against already.

Now after a number of months with N^2 rewards (back in 2016) and more than a year with linear rewards, instead of "writing a letter" and then pumping it to trending in order to start a polemic, why not use the blockchain data and do a comparative analysis?

Extract the blockchain data from the 2 periods and look at whatever indicators you think most relevant (wealth distribution for instance under n^2 and under linear). Compare the figures: was it better with n^2 ? Or is it better with linear ? Do a regression analysis if you have to, do covariance analysis if it helps and come with mathematical proof that one or another is better for the goal that you state (which I share and I believe most people share)
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@teamsteem · (edited)
$0.02
I will in some very simplistic way prove the person doing the less amount of work currently have the best ROI. Those who engage ithe least in "proof-of-brain".
πŸ‘  
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@sorin.lite ·
$0.13
That will show that the current system falls short. It does not, in any way, condone nonlinear rewards. Just because we change something that's "not good enough" does not mean whatever we replace it with will automatically be "better". It can very well be ... even worse !

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@tipu ·
This comment is supported by $8.06 @tipU upvote funded by @sorin.cristescu :)<br><strong><a href="https://busy.org/@tipu/tipu-voting-service-quick-guide-updated-05-10-2018" rel="noopener">@tipU voting service guide</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@tipu/tipu-update-steem-monsters-lottery-added-d" rel="noopener">STEEM Monsters Lottery</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@tipu/tipu-introducing-swap-quick-steem-sbd-exchange" rel="noopener">Quick SBD <-> STEEM Exchange</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@tipu/receiving-daily-profit-with-tipu-quick-guide" rel="noopener">For investors</a></strong>.
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@spectator11 ·
Improving steemit is all that matters in my opinion. In every endeavor, there is always the choice between listening to your community and using the intelligent feedback for improving your productions OR going against the community. As it is the case with so many things, people need to learn to not take themselves too seriously but put the project in the foreground instead. That's when real progress is made.
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@spectrumecons ·
Hi @teamsteem, I think that it is good that you raise N^2 vs linear debate again. The survey conducted by @cervantes indicates that the top witnesses are against N^1.3 (mild super-linear) but it wasn't discussed in much depth in that post.

Before too much is thrown around regarding solutions. The problem/s we need to solve need to be clearly stated otherwise the average Steemium is going to question what all the fuss is about. What would help would be a post clearly stating the problems. Are we talking about a rewards problem? Quality of content problem? User interface problem? Content discovery problem? Flow of information problem? All of the above or some of the above. I believe it is a mixture of all of the above. 

People generally try to get the highest rewards for the least amount of work. The low effort options, at the moment, are more rewarding than the higher effort options such as creating content and manual curation. Rewards should align to value added to the community. That is just a very brief summary of what I think the problem/s are. This should be articulated a lot further. Once the problem/s are clearly articulated (i.e. majority of the users can understand the problems). We should discuss possible approaches and solutions. 

Mostly likely a combination of solutions are required. 50/50 curation split plus separate pool for downvotes appears quite popular with witnesses and fairly split amongst users. You discuss N^2 rewards as a response to 'selfish behaviour'. All these are Steem solutions. The weaknesses of the UI has not been discussed in combination with Steem solutions. There is a lot that can be done with a user interface. Steempeak has already taken a step forward with the use of saved topics, trails and users. 

It would be good to look at as many possible solutions and scenarios and how they would work together to solve problems that have been clearly identified and understood by the majority.
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@teamsteem ·
Thank you for your very eloquent and on point contribution.
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@steem-plus ·
SteemPlus upvote
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@steemitboard ·
Congratulations @teamsteem! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

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<tr><td>https://steemitimages.com/60x70/http://steemitboard.com/@teamsteem/comments.png?201810300023</td><td>You made more than 8500 comments. Your next target is to reach 9000 comments.</td></tr>
</table>

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To support your work, I also upvoted your post!


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@stmbtcearning ·
you nicely stated this I've rehashed the original whitepaper's argument against linear rewards of which I haven't seen any valid rebuttal. I've asked 2 questions from which I hope a clearer picture can emerge to the benefit of everyone.

Steem's stakes are huge for all of us. It would have been a lot less risks for me to accept the current status quo but I needed to stand up for what I'm convinced of and for which I haven't seen any valid rebuttal.
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@sulkiflih ·
Very amazing news....
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@sulkiflih ·
Good news..
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@sumit71428 ·
Yes a solution to this must be there so that rather self voting the chance to the small accounts should also be provided or else steemit will a platform where either you should have huge money to buy steem power or a friend who owns it, even i am was seeking for the solution lets see what can be the solution.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@sureshbhav88 ·
A very good explanation. Good information learnt from this post friend. Good one.
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@tomygamer ·
Me ayudan para comprarme un juego? Cuesta super poco. Plis soy pobre y no tengo dinero para comprar
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@transisto · (edited)
$1.48
If you don't agree with people self-voting themselves then down-vote them.

Here's a non-linear system for you.

Also like @Blocktrades pointed out, Curation reward made the system non-linear. Since HF20 (first 15min forgoing of curation reward to author) there are huge economic forces at play for getting a piece of the curation which is acting to counter profit of self-voters. 

BTW you're about 1 year too late to argue again't a change that is already been implemented.
I know what you meant but your title seems to completely disregard decisions and the evolution that took place during the last year.
πŸ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@berniesanders ·
You mean like all of your rip-off shit posts @transisto?
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@teamsteem ·
> Flagging doesn't solve the issue, as the flagged rewards are simply returned to the reward pool for anyone to grab, selfish and selfless upvoters alike. 

Steem is always evolving and changes aren't set in stone.
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@transisto ·
$0.54
Downvoted for pushing your post about 400$ above the top post.


![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmVWMpjS5GU3S4ocyuGspQXFH3bm6LWoTprzUw61wpv9pR/image.png)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@ugetfunded ·
One of the best things about non-linear approach is unpredictability that non only adds more thrill to the experience but also removes the predictability factor from it. I believe this is one of the most detailed post on this topic. Excellent piece of work one more time @teamsteem. You're simply the best!
πŸ‘  
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@teamsteem ·
> I believe this is one of the most detailed post on this topic. Excellent piece of work one more time @teamsteem. You're simply the best!

Appreciated!
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@upmewhale ·
re-teamsteem-why-i-advice-against-linear-reward-20181029t182605222z
You got a 100.00% upvote from @upmewhale courtesy of @teamsteem!

Earn 100% earning payout by delegating SP to @upmewhale. Visit http://www.upmewhale.com for details!
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@ura-soul ·
$0.18
To reiterate for those that missed it (which appears to be almost everyone) - 

As I stated in the comments under @Trafalgar's post, I have a solution to the bid bot issue that steps on no-one's toes and cannot really be circumvented. I wrote about it [here](https://steempeak.com/steem/@ura-soul/bid-body-steem-s-achilles-heal-i-present-a-new-way-to-solve-the-bid-bot-issues-and-reinstate-proof-of-brain). By giving every steem user the ability to mute the EFFECT of votes by allowing them to mute VOTERS - we allow everyone to block out the effects of bots while also empowering users to see more of what they want/need to see. This would also enhance the effectiveness of good curators too since their work would be more visible to those who care and they can then both benefit from their work by reading posts they discover and also then upvote them. This facilitates proof of brain in a pure way that does not involve overpowering anyone and that actually empowers people more than they have been. Empowerment is what is needed here.

I also commented that I see an issue with free downvoting in that the imbalance among user's Steem Power holdings means that malicious whales could literally shut down a large amount of the reward activity for the entire network, which would in turn boost their own earnings. Ultimately, power imbalance that can limit exposure is a problem when exposure is the proposed way to gain power and rectify the balance. This is a fundamental flaw in capitalism too, in the sense that new users (or new born babies) have to join in an old game where monopoly is already established. It's fine to say 'work hard and you can be big too', but in reality that's not how things play out due to the nature of the weighting involved and the ability of the biggest to crush the smallest with little incentive financially for them not to do so. The idea that the big whales who act selfishly to the point of destroying the network would change before they actually do destroy the network, presupposes a level of intelligence and perceptiveness/care on their part about such things - which is already possibly evidenced to be in short supply by the fact that they would have taken things to that point.

Every point in all of this is unique and we need to dive deeply into every point to fully understand it and reach the best outcome. Soundbytes jut can't cut it here. However, I will say that options that empower without overpowering anyone are always helpful.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@smooth ·
> By giving every steem user the ability to mute the EFFECT of votes by allowing them to mute VOTERS

This addresses this issue of visibility, and any UI can experiment with different visibility systems right now. It doesn't address the issue of reward distribution. The latter is a Steem blockchain function and can't be changed by UIs.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@ura-soul ·
Yes, I appreciate that my suggestion is a UI feature, however, it does address reward distribution by directly empowering all users to affect reward distribution by disincentivising the use of bidbots in a way that everyone can decide to participate in or not participate in. If this approach gained wide adoption, it is easy to imagine that bidbots would no longer be attractive.
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@vegeta ·
What about people with 100s of accounts? 

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@teamsteem ·
Steem is stake based so there's no issue.
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@vegeta · (edited)
Then it will go back to single votes being worthless. Wouldn't whales just spread their stake across different accounts to self vote? 
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@wasi0022 ·
i am satisfy and its awosm
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@xn2kid ·
I am still confused about how to use this steemit
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@yabapmatt ·
$4.14
> "In order to realign incentives and discourage individuals from simply voting for themselves, money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner."

I agree with the above statement; however, I don't feel that is the correct question to be asking here. The problem we are trying to solve here is not people "voting for themselves", it's how to properly incentivize real curation efforts as compared to automated "gaming" of the reward system.

In my opinion, no change in numbers or algorithm will achieve that goal. No matter what we set the reward curve to, or the curation percentage, it will always be possible to take advantage of the algorithm to gain optimal rewards via automated voting over manual curation.

The only way I see as a realistic possibility to effectively combat that is a crowdsourcing approach (as compared to an algorithmic approach). Currently the crowdsourcing aspect of Steem rewards is clearly broken due to the extreme disincentive to downvote, which is why I am strongly in favor of something like a separate downvote pool which is being discussed.

Once that is in place, I think the rest of the reward system should be made as simple as possible for people to understand, as this will help the crowdsourcing effort. That is why I am against changing both the reward curve and the curation percentage. I feel those changes will end up being gamed just the same as the current system is now, and on top of that they make things more complicated for users to understand which will hurt the effective crowdsourcing of rewards which I hope we can improve significantly.

I should probably make a more detailed post about my thoughts on this topic when I have some time.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (17)
@eonwarped ·
Yeah, as I've seen the back and forth on this topic, it seems to me that every proposal needs a downvoting component for it (and I do like that you say 'crowd-sourced' here, that does seem apt) to work, so I am pretty much in agreement with you here.
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@knircky ·
$0.17
The first thing that popped to mind as well to me was that it was not the relevant question. Interesting.

I have a doubt when it comes to downvoting.


I think downvoting must be part of the system, however, I am worried about a culture of downvoting. Downvotes are perceived much much stronger than upvotes, so if everyone downvotes a lot this may backlash.

It works on youtube though.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@transisto · (edited)
https://steemit.com/steem/@transisto/improving-negative-curation-a-downvote-button-vs-flag-explained-condenser

https://steemit.com/steem/@transisto/separate-downvoting-power-pool-concept-visualized
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@yabapmatt ·
$0.04
I think that's mostly because downvoting is so rare nowadays, and so financially disincentivized, that when it happens it's a really big deal. It will likely take some time for people to adjust to the change, but after a while if it becomes a commonplace thing (like on youtube as you mentioned) then it won't be a big deal anymore.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
The problem I have with the incentivized flags is that rather than be used to crowd-source for quality etc, they will become ridiculous vendetta tools. Can't really claim that the average maturity of the platform is high as if it was, a lot of the problems wouldn't exist in the first place. 

I agree that the reward system should be as simple as possible, at least for the beginner stages as the current barriers to entry are already so high due to the complexity of the entire process. The complexity can still exist of course but the average user need not feel they have to worry about it at sign up unless thy are investing in.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@smooth ·
$0.06
Flags aren't really incentivized in this proposal (we don't know of a good method to do that even if we wanted to), they just stop being so costly. You still earn essentially nothing by downvoting. Your other content does go up every so slightly slightly in payout all else being equal, but it is quite negligible (and your other content too can be downvoted if don't have sufficient merit)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@yabapmatt ·
$0.06
I think that's all part of the crowdsourcing. If someone is using downvotes as an attack against otherwise valuable content, then the community can step in and upvote it. Often I've found that people who are the target of unfair downvoting can appeal to the community and come out ahead of where they started in terms of support and votes.

Also, i'm not necessarily saying that what i'm proposing will work, i don't think anyone knows that for sure. But my guess is that it would work better than adjusting numbers in some algorithm, and i think the experiment of the Steem platform as a whole is about crowdsourcing rewards more than algorithmic rewards, so I would like to give it a real shot.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@teamsteem · (edited)
Superlinear reward encourages some curation as opposed to the current system that incentivizes exclusive self-upvotes. Good or bad can only be determined by the person doing the curation.
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@inventor16 · (edited)
$0.11
Nonlinear rewards can be gamed by dividing your SP up into a bunch of different accounts. you're not going to stop self upvoting. What we really need is account based voting with accounts verified by oracles, which is coming anyway I believe.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@knircky ·
$0.66
I do not understand how it encourages curation.

If we have nonlinear rewards my upvotes are worthless unless I upvote the most popular content. So it supresses curation even more so,  as my voice is suppressed unless I follow the crowd.

Right now my vote as an example is worth $2. I get to give this to anyone I like. Much easier for me to actually curate and reward what I find valuable.
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (9)
@smooth · (edited)
$1.00
> Superlinear reward encourages some curation as

It doesn't and if you read the above section of the whitepaper carefully, no such claim is made:

>  money must be distributed in a nonlinear manner

This states a necessary but not sufficient condition. The white paper does not claim that superlinear alone is sufficient to achieve curation, in fact it states precisely the opposite because it explains the need for downvotes to prevent collusion (a somewhat technical term, but in this context, it means _more SP_ working together to increase the payout of content above its merits; somewhat different from the implied English meaning since there is no requirement for multiple _actors_, only an increased amount of SP working to self-reward). 

Unfortunately the white paper got some of this wrong. It describes the crab bucket model where stakeholders are supposed to pull down others who try to collude to extract rewards. However, in the real world, we have seen that most stakeholders would rather see to their own reward earnings rather than 'waste' vote power pulling others down. The psychology may be valid, but the cost of downvoting is just too high for psychology to override economics here.

Crowdsourced downvotes as described by @yabapmatt also distribute rewards in a non-linear fashion, as follows. If 100% upvote and no one downvotes, the reward is 100% relative to the amount of voting power used. If 80% upvote and 20% downvote, the reward is 75% relative to the amount of voting power used. **This is non-linear** and satisfies the _necessary_ condition of the white paper. This assumes that downvotes don't deplete upvote power as in the @cervantes/@kevonwong/etc. proposal. If they do then the reward is 60%, but either way, still non-linear.

We think that is a better approach. I wouldn't flat out rule out some superlinear (indeed we have one at my urging in HF20 with the new treatment of dust votes at the very low end), but n^2 doesn't look like a good solution and other solutions are underdeveloped (and, quite possibly, unnecessary).
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (12)
@yabapmatt ·
It may, but my point is that I would prefer to keep the reward algorithm as simple as possible, and allow the community to regulate it from there. So if the community decides that excessive self-upvoting is bad, they can downvote people who do that, which then removes the incentive that is there now.
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