--- >*“Governments are just small groups of people who claim the right to rule their neighbors, and The State is the mythology woven to justify this claim.”* <BR>[**- Jacob Tothe**](https://peakd.com/christianity/@jacobtothe/the-church-in-crisis-and-a-solution) --- <H3>What *is* Romans 13 talking about?</H3> Your knee-jerk reaction is, of course, *"I know what Romans 13 is about; **God wants us to obey the government.**"* <H3>*Really?*</H3> Let's take a look at the facts. --- <center> [](https://hive.blog/a/@creatr/b)<H6>Praying in Prison [(*source*)](https://pixabay.com/photos/man-pray-prayer-praising-praise-6354820/)</H6> </center> --- <center><H3>This Is *NOT* That - *A Comment On Romans 13*</H3><H6>by Duncan Cary Palmer</H6></center> For decades I've been bludgeoned from the pulpit by preachers [***wielding the club*** of ***Romans 13.***](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13&version=NASB1995) ***"Obey the government!"*** is the universal cry. But have you ever stopped to examine those preachers' underlying assumptions? Can Paul *possibly* be talking about [the **state**?](https://zeroaggressionproject.org/mental-lever/the-state/) Perhaps it takes a simple, child-like mind to see that [Romans 13](https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/the-curmudgeon-s-bible-what-are-the-governing-authorities-of-romans-13-1) can't conceivably be describing anything remotely like the governments we have known all of our lives. We'll start by looking at what Paul *actually says:* >*"For rulers ([Greek **ἄρχων**](https://peakd.com/conspiracy/@creatr/political-power-and-the-connotation-conspiracy)) [**are not**](https://ugg.readthedocs.io/en/latest/mood_indicative.html) a cause of fear for **good behavior,** but for **evil.** Do you want to have no fear of authority? **Do what is good** and **you will have praise** from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But **if you do what is evil,** be **afraid;** for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings **wrath on the one who practices evil.**"* \- [Romans 13:3-4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+13%3A3-4&version=NASB1995), *emphasis added* Now, let's compare this description to just a few clear-cut, virtually universal *cases in point,* examples that (*for any thinking person*) should dispel the myth that Paul is speaking about the governments we live under: * Surely, **building a house** to [shelter your family](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+5%3A8&version=NASB1995) is *"good behavior,"* is it not? Do state rulers praise you for doing so? ***No!*** Instead, they make it as difficult as possible, requiring endless [permits and fees](https://www.cotta.ge/resources/adu-costs). When you've completed the herculean task, they [force you to pay—again and again, year after year—](https://mises.org/wire/evil-residential-property-tax)to remain in your house with your family, under threat of stealing it from you and selling it to someone else. * **Is supporting your family** *good* or *evil behavior?* When you work hard, the better you do at [providing for your family](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+5%3A8&version=NASB1995), the more praise ought to be due you from the "rulers" described in Romans 13. Instead, *the harder you work,* [the more the state takes](https://1889institute.org/why-the-income-tax-is-just-plain-evil/) away from you. * What about [**saving money**](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+13%3A22&version=NASB1995) for your family's future? Surely that is good behavior, is it not? What does the state do? It punishes you for saving by printing more money, [inflating the money supply](https://mises.org/library/many-evils-inflation) and making every dollar you earn worth less. What about *"the one who practices evil?"* Are they punished? Consider: * Criminals at times walk free on a technicality, and even when convicted, they are rarely if ever required [to pay restitution](https://journalistsresource.org/criminal-justice/criminal-restitution-debt-victims/) to those they have injured or robbed. * Instead, after committing a crime, these evildoers are ***furnished free room and board***. They become *guests* in a "hotel" maintained and run by the state, [paid for by *taxing*](https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-what-incarceration-costs-taxpayers) honest, hard-working citizens—including their victims. * The biggest criminals of all (*politicians*) pass "laws" that favor those who contribute to their campaigns. Their handsome salaries are extracted from your pockets, and [they can retire](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/080416/how-congress-retirement-pay-compares-overall-average.asp) after short careers [with a huge net worth](https://ballotpedia.org/Personal_Gain_Index_(U.S._Congress)) from insider knowledge and deals made with those who benefitted from their "legislation." These are but a few possible examples. I'm sure you've heard of others. ### What's my conclusion? ***Open your eyes.*** The claim that Romans 13 describes existing governments flies in the face of all observable evidence. What Paul is *actually* talking about is *good* government, God's preferred form of 100% voluntary local government, [***the ecclesia***](https://peakd.com/kingdom/@creatr/the-state-or-god-s-kingdom-a-comparison-chart). Nation states and all other "governments" that do not explicitly recognize Jesus as King and Lord over the entirety of their structure and operation are illegitimate, *renegade* organizations that are—in all truth—**anti-Christ.** God is in the process of [**destroying** and **replacing**](https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/lunch-with-a-friend-the-outcome) all forms of government that do not explicitly recognize Jesus as King and Lord. The sooner we recognize this, the better off we all will be. --- <center><H1>~*FIN*~</H1></center> --- <center> [](https://hive.blog/a/@creatr/b)<H6>This Is NOT Romans 13... [(*source*)](https://pixabay.com/photos/hand-handcuffs-tied-up-chain-4495562/)</H6> </center> --- <center><H6>***NOTE:*** Don't miss the enlightening [***hyperlinks***](https://hive.blog/a/@creatr/b) in my posts.<BR>*IMAGES* are my own, open source, by permission, or fair use.</H6></center> --- <center>**For *much* more from @creatr, click the library image:** [](https://hive.blog/a/@creatr/b)</center> --- I would love to hear from you; [**please join Hive**](https://signup.hive.io/) and speak your mind below! ---
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Commentary on Romans 13 by the founding fathers of these United States: >when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government The King of England ruled under "the Divine Right of Kings", meaning his claim to authority was "established by God" and believed to be "what God instituted", language from Romans 13. But when the colonists rightfully threw off such a tyrannical government as is their duty, they did what is right, because rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God. It is also their duty to establish ministers ordained of God for good, and revengers upon those who do evil. Romans 13:9 describes the fulfilling of the Law of God, the attributes of a minister ordained of God for good - yet tyrants commit adultery, they murder, they steal, they bear false witness, they covet. And by doing these in the Name of the LORD, they blaspheme the Name of the LORD. If we are to sanctify the Name of the LORD, we will fear Him who can destroy body and soul in Gehenna and not fear the kings of the earth. We will (as Paul says) "render therefore to all their dues", we will render "fear to whom fear is due and honour to whom honour is due." Ministers ordained of God (as Paul says) are due these wages, because they fulfill the Law of God, but wicked tyrants who blaspheme the Name of the Most High God are also due their wages, the wrath of God stored up for them. Do not rebel against the LORD nor fear the people of the earth for they are bread for us their defense is departed from them And the LORD is with us, do not fear them!
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Hey Brother, Thanks for reading my stuff so often and taking the time to comment. You've reminded me today of this scripture: > *"Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. **The world is passing away,** and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever."* \- [1 John 2:15-17](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2%3A15-17&version=NASB1995) Jesus is [***destroying*** the tyrants](https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/lunch-with-a-friend-the-outcome) as we speak; I can only wish that more in the church would open their eyes and recognize that, rather than participating in and perpetuating the evil... Blessings! \- @creatr 😄😇😉 <a href="https://hive.blog/a/@creatr/b" target="_blank"> <img src="https://images.hive.blog/DQmY6ZCaqzHVKzABt8RX4rQ8ojC5ygLHmEmxWDovcEnx46A/creatr_ap.gif" alt="@creatr" style="border:0;"> </a>
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Much appreciated, I checked out some links of previous articles you have written and thoroughly enjoyed them, especially your conversation with your friend over Chinese food. Our family is currently reading the book of Daniel, and we are coming to realize the theme of the book: that the Most High alone has the authority to set up and take down kings and kingdoms - and His servants (often heathen) are His tool to do this. But how much more then His believing servants! In Daniel's day, God set up kings, but now with Yeshua at the right hand of the Father, currently wielding ALL authority on earth and in Heaven ([only regarding the throne is God Higher](https://biblehub.com/genesis/41-40.htm)), He would have to delegate power to kings for them to hold legitimate power. We have to ask then, do our current "kings" display the fingerprint of the King of kings? Are they subject to *their* governing authority which is from God? Do they bear the fruit of righteousness as ministers ordained by God? A transfer of ownership will happen at the seventh (last) trump. >“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” And the resurrected saints will be the ministers ordained by God. >And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years Good and faithful servants will have authority (exousia) over cities. >And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
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It's weird to see myself quoted, but at least it's in this kind of context! I have heard a lot of discussion of Romans 13 in Christian anarchist and libertarian circles. Taking it in context of the surrounding chapters matters. So does delving into the Greek and exploring translation disputes. Of course, merely being a Christian has been "illegal" in various places for the past 2,000 years, so we all know legality has no inherent or divinely-granted authority on that basis alone.
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Hi, Bro! > *"It's weird to see myself quoted, but at least it's in this kind of context!"* LOLOLOL! I would never quote you in a bad light.🙏😃 > *"I have heard a lot of discussion of Romans 13 in Christian anarchist and libertarian circles."* This is certainly [not the first time](https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/the-curmudgeon-s-bible-what-are-the-governing-authorities-of-romans-13-1) I've dipped my toe in those waters; here, I'm just taking a whack from a different angle. > *"Taking it in context of the surrounding chapters matters."* Absolutely! That has persuaded me that Romans 13 is really talking about [the *good governance*](https://peakd.com/kingdom/@creatr/the-state-or-god-s-kingdom-a-comparison-chart) God expects us to do in the ecclesia to replace the state. > *"So does delving into the Greek and exploring translation disputes."* Of which I think [this post](https://peakd.com/christianity/@creatr/the-curmudgeon-s-bible-what-are-the-governing-authorities-of-romans-13-1) is my most direct observation, and [this a close second](https://peakd.com/conspiracy/@creatr/political-power-and-the-connotation-conspiracy). > *"...merely being a Christian has been "illegal" in various places..."* And I think—were we truly [doing this right](https://peakd.com/kingdom/@creatr/we-need-a-new-reformation)—it would probably be illegal here in the US. Thanks for always reading and frequently commenting! And who knows, I may likely quote you again when appropriate.🤣 Blessings! \- @creatr 😄😇😉 <a href="https://hive.blog/a/@creatr/b" target="_blank"> <img src="https://images.hive.blog/DQmY6ZCaqzHVKzABt8RX4rQ8ojC5ygLHmEmxWDovcEnx46A/creatr_ap.gif" alt="@creatr" style="border:0;"> </a>
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The main point of agreement between Paul and his intended audience was their shared belief that the Roman government had just brutally, publicly executed the only sinless person in the world. Him telling them to obey the Roman government **because they only hurt bad people** is ridiculous. Either he's telling them not to obey the Romans, by encoding it with shared knowledge; or he's not talking about the Roman government.
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Hey Matt, Thanks for reading and commenting. > *"Either he's telling them not to obey the Romans, by encoding it with shared knowledge; or he's not talking about the Roman government."* Someone in another forum has asserted that my article exhibits two logical fallacies; ["False Dilemma"](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/False-Dilemma) and ["Begging the Question."](https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/begging-the-question.html) I think you may be following suit, at least with the "False Dichotomy."🤣 Having said that, and while I am still mulling over the accusation, my preliminary reaction is that neither of us bear much guilt on that count... Perhaps we've simply emphasized what in our minds are the two most probable interpretations without bothering to explicitly acknowledge there may be other options. You and I agree on one of the possibilities; to wit, that Paul's **not** talking about [the state](https://zeroaggressionproject.org/mental-lever/the-state/). And I'm willing to concede that there are probably an infinite range of other possible interpretations rather than the one I prefer. On my part, I've become persuaded that any positive talk about governance in the New Testament is aimed at God's *ideal* form of governance, which is *local*—at the level of cities—and is *voluntary* when it comes to participation. This governance structure is best embodied by [the ecclesia](https://peakd.com/kingdom/@creatr/the-state-or-god-s-kingdom-a-comparison-chart). This is the governance I write about extensively in my [**Kingdom Series**](https://peakd.com/library/@creatr/the-kingdom-of-jesus-god-the-heavens-my-library-shelf) of articles. > *"Him telling them to obey the Roman government **because they only hurt bad people** is ridiculous."* I could not agree more. Blessings, Friend! And Happy New Year to you and yours. 😄😇😉 <a href="https://hive.blog/a/@creatr/b" target="_blank"> <img src="https://images.hive.blog/DQmY6ZCaqzHVKzABt8RX4rQ8ojC5ygLHmEmxWDovcEnx46A/creatr_ap.gif" alt="@creatr" style="border:0;"> </a>
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created | 2023-12-31 23:36:18 |
last_update | 2023-12-31 23:36:18 |
depth | 2 |
children | 6 |
last_payout | 2024-01-07 23:36:18 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.112 HBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.112 HBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 HBD |
promoted | 0.000 HBD |
body_length | 2,099 |
author_reputation | 136,627,187,742,915 |
root_title | "This Is NOT That - A Comment On Romans 13" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 HBD |
percent_hbd | 10,000 |
post_id | 130,125,253 |
net_rshares | 479,516,560,267 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
mattclarke | 0 | 479,516,560,267 | 50% |
Either he's referring to the Roman state or he isn't. I don't see a third option.
author | mattclarke |
---|---|
permlink | re-creatr-s6kkv9 |
category | christianity |
json_metadata | {"tags":["christianity"],"app":"peakd/2023.11.3"} |
created | 2024-01-01 06:33:12 |
last_update | 2024-01-01 06:33:12 |
depth | 3 |
children | 5 |
last_payout | 2024-01-08 06:33:12 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.019 HBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.019 HBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 HBD |
promoted | 0.000 HBD |
body_length | 82 |
author_reputation | 127,591,687,348,982 |
root_title | "This Is NOT That - A Comment On Romans 13" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 HBD |
percent_hbd | 10,000 |
post_id | 130,130,979 |
net_rshares | 86,530,147,507 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
creatr | 0 | 86,530,147,507 | 100% |