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Follow Up to People Rank Algorithm for Better Curation Rewards by dantheman

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steemit · @dantheman ·
$1,285.18
Follow Up to People Rank Algorithm for Better Curation Rewards
<center>https://img1.steemit.com/0x0/https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/PageRank-hi-res.png</center>
Yesterday I [released an article where I suggested that the Page Rank algorithm used by Google might be a viable alternative to the current voting system](/steem/@dantheman/people-rank-using-page-rank-algorithm-for-better-curation-and-rewards). Today I would like to add some additional insights that I have had.

Using a simple [page rank simulator](http://faculty.chemeketa.edu/ascholer/cs160/WebApps/PageRank/) I played around with various graph structures to get a better understanding of the graph theory and behavior of Page Rank.

What I discovered is that in a world where everyone is equal, those who create links amongst themselves gain weight relative to those who do not cross link.  I also discovered that those who give links without receiving lose direct influence, though they may gain via indirect influence.

## Negative Weights don't Work

Using Page Rank you cannot have edges with negative weights, this means that it is not possible have your voting influence countered, especially if you are a bad whale.   

## Variation on Page Rank - Recursive Delegated Voting

Many people have been asking for the ability to delegate VESTS to other users who could then use those VESTS to cast votes.  To really work well, it should be possible to redelegate your votes an infinite number of times.  With delegated voting it should also be possible to "cancel out" someone else's vote with your own vote.  This is already possible with bot wars, but with delegated negative voting we can bypass the network spam.

## Scalability 

This algorithm has many of the same scalability considerations as Page Rank.  This means that each account would be limited in the number of accounts it could delegate to.  Furthermore, there would need to be a minimal delegated amount.

## Benefits 
If implemented it would be relatively trivial to police vote spammers as well as those who would abuse the power of negative voting to silence legitimate voters.

Whales would be able to delegate their VESTS to other users who can use the increased influence to provide better curation and increase the value of the VESTS.  

## The Evil Whale Problem 

<center>http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/4/4a/Monstro_smash.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20071017224248</center>

We live in a world filled with evil whales.  The power elite who control our economy and the printing presses are willing to risk burning down the economy to increase their power and wealth.  Their interests are clearly not aligned with the masses.

While Steem is young and has significant upside growth potential and relatively little economic power, the easiest way for whales to grow their power, wealth, and influence is to work with everyone else.  Once Steem achieves a level of entrenchment similar to Facebook, Twitter, etc, the whales can misbehave with relative impunity because everyone is "locked in".  

It is critical that the masses of dolphins, minnows, and good whales, have the power to efficiently neutralize bad actors for the benefit of all.  I am committed to building a system that empowers people who work for the benefit of all and disempowers those who attempt to work against the best interest of the wider community.

## Conclusion

Creating a distributed, self-governing, mob that works reliably to allocate resources for the betterment of the whole rather than the individual is challenging.  As the stakes are raised it becomes increasingly difficult to prevent abuse. Recursive Delegated Voting is a variation on Page Rank that might just do the trick.

I would like to thank everyone who has participated in yesterday's discussion.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 456 others
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vote details (520)
@a11at · 
good luck. upvoted
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@acassity · 
### Great post I hope developers see this and put some of these ideas to use!!! Check out my idea to advertise for Steemit: 
![](http://i.imgsafe.org/cd3068ee8b.png) 
https://steemit.com/steemit/@acassity/snapchat-steemit-geofilter-live-in-salt-lake-city-at-the-city-creek-mall-1st-geofilter-of-many-planned-to-come-for-steemit
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@bendjmiller222 · 
I like your idea, but I don't think this is the right place to advertise your content. It's kind of link-spam if your comment doesn't really have anything to do with the topic brought up by the OP. I'm not saying that is your intention, but it does take away from the conversation. 

And I used to do the same thing, because it is hard to gain traction with a small influence, so I am not trying to badmouth you at all. But think if everyone did that with the ideas they had (whether good or bad) how much less valuable would the comment section be? Sometimes you can add a link that is relevant to the convo and that's good, but I don't think this does.

Also for links it looks a lot better if you put links inside brackets the name you want to appear inside the first  [] followed immediately by website in here () [@acassity link](https://steemit.com/steemit/@acassity/snapchat-steemit-geofilter-live-in-salt-lake-city-at-the-city-creek-mall-1st-geofilter-of-many-planned-to-come-for-steemit)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@timcliff · (edited)
I found this @acassity guy spam posting this into a lot of other people's posts. I down-voted it in a few posts where it was completely off topic, and he retaliated by going to my blog and downvoting my content :( 
A real asset to the Steemit community we have here...
👍  
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vote details (1)
@bergy · 
"I hope developers see this", I chuckled.
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@bendjmiller222 · 
Until the system is fully implemented as long as whales are not corrupt the system should continue as normal correct? The problem happens with scalability and potential corrupt whales in the future.
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@dantheman ·
$0.04
more or less, the system is fine today.  We are simply preparing for the future.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@timcliff · (edited)
With the implementation of this, how do you see the content payouts changing? Do you expect that more good content producers who are currently getting low payouts will start to get larger ones, as the voting power of the large whales is distributed across a larger group of voters? Will the upvote from a single 'whale' result in a smaller payout increase, since the whale's SP voting power is not all allocated to the single user's vote anymore?
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@biophil ·
$0.02
As I suggested in reply to your post yesterday, the more "invisible" this delegated voting thing can be, the better. If people could log in, go about their business voting on articles, and under the hood their account rank is computed based on these votes, that would be beautiful.

You've already done this with author and curation rewards; almost nobody actually knows how they work, but they work really well and highly exploitation-resistant.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@blow · 
Personal opinion Evil Whale should not deprive the rights of the user to interact with other users. It violates the rights of the entire community.
   Need a personal blacklist.
   Ability to install reputation below which you will not see the message.
This approach will allow 1 to protect themselves from the bad content. 2. Do not infringe on the right of the community to choose what is important and the like. 3. Provide the user with a low reputation not see the message wrong whale.
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@blow · 
Delegation of authority "from above" to organize quite real. Mr. VV Putin He built a power vertical on this principle. This requires a lot of control and permanent manual control. And this is the end of decentralization and the possibility of influencing the average user.
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@blueorgy · 
**"We live in a world filled with evil whales...."** 
@dantheman you sir, are not one of them.

I was late to the discussion on yesterday's post so I'm glad I saw this early. You make some great points 

>This algorithm has many of the same scalability considerations as Page Rank. This means that each account would be limited in the number of accounts it could delegate to. Furthermore, there would need to be a minimal delegated amount.

This I believe is one of the keys to really getting Steemit to work in general. I see this platform accelerating in growth rather quickly and without a stable and **scalable** solution it would collapse very quickly. limiting the number of accounts delegated could help solve part of this problem. Leading into delegated voting which I think you need to expand upon a bit more.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@celebr1ty · 
And what about bots?
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@coar · 
I think blue smile have to many hands..
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@cryptofunk · 
The algorithms you are implementing are akin to solving humanity's problems! Can we share resources equally and appropriately? This is the dawn of a new age!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@darwilliam · 
Yes, great joob...
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@denisoi · 
Hey @dantheman Good luck with the new system..looks interesting. Sorry for using this post to ask but can you please take a look at my last post.. it's important for me. Thank you ! 
https://steemit.com/marriage/@denisoi/first-steemit-marriagre-proposal-will-she-accept
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@timcliff · 
Cute :)
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@dwinblood · 
I just posted an article and you pretty much negated my concerns.  If you need guinea pigs I volunteer.   Thanks for looking into this.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@dwinblood/two-sides-to-every-fence-the-voting-down-voting-saga-continues
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@bendjmiller222 · 
Do  you know how to shorten the links you post? I'm just trying to help people that don't know, because the length of blue sometimes drives me crazy (a little ocd) and I think a shortened url is way more appealing. 

Put the name you want to see in []'s and the url immediately next to it within ()'s 

[Two sides to every fence](https://steemit.com/steemit/@dwinblood/two-sides-to-every-fence-the-voting-down-voting-saga-continues)
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@dwinblood · 
I know.   Though I sometimes forget to do it.  Though I actually do it old school.  When I do it I tend to use actual HTML and an a href=""    followed by a /a closing tag.   Though sometimes when I am posting fast I forget.   I don't intuitively think of the markdown method though, so thanks. :)
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@einsteinpotsdam · 
Hello dantheman! 

Our caffee is accepting Steem and Steem $ payments. It would be great, if you could have a look at our Tutorial for other shop owners.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@einsteinpotsdam/tutorial-for-other-shop-owners-how-to-accept-steem-and-steem-usd-payments-setup-time-under-2-minutes-android

If its not allowed to post this here, please delete it.

Thank you!

Your EINSTEIN KAFFEE Bistro Potsdam Social Media Team
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@ervin-lemark · (edited)
$162.79
You are creating an **organised self-regulated anarchy system** :)

I like the ideas  that you came out with after yesterday's announcement.

Yes, the limits should exist to prevent thing to spiral out of control.

Limits both for delegating votes and for limiting or taming the bad whales. 

This journey is becoming more and more interesting. I like it.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (15)
@fingolfin · 
I know it has been discussed before but I still think that we need to determine when flagging a post is acceptable. Should it be solely for plagiarism/spam or should it be what one person subjectively decides is good for the masses? Without first defining what constitutes abusing "the power of negative voting" as you put it,  it is difficult to tweak the system appropriately.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
It is going to be subjective and community consensus, always. There is no way to define "solely for plagiarism/spam" (or any other such definition) in a protocol. The protocol can provide the tools, but people still have to decide how to use them.
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@thecryptofiend · 
I know but we need to reach some kind of consensus on what it should be for - people consensus rather than blockchain consensus lol.
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@thecryptofiend · 
Agreed.  We need some clarification on this.  I still think positive voting should be used for expressing likes (and not voting for dislikes) with flagging reserved for abuse of the platform.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@flandude · 
http://i.imgsafe.org/d01598860e.jpg
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@flandude · 
http://i.imgsafe.org/d07262d68c.jpg
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@proglobyte · (edited)
Pretty sure you got that backwards - we all know who should be holding the pitchfork.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@flandude · 
http://i.imgsafe.org/d207490288.jpg

@proglobyte

my bad
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stellabelle · 
exactly
👍  
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vote details (1)
@full-measure · 
What if voting power was a function of steem power over time rather than just steem power? And even better 'time' could include some sort of algorithm to rank how effectively people curate, and your voting power doesn't necessarily have to go up.

Just time itself though is enough to tether a whale to an identity, and then from there maybe there's a way to penalize evil whales, or at least make their behavior really risky? Like a loss of steem power when your vote clashes with the majority of steem power?
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@good-karma · 
I thought to write this yesterday, I hold off until I thought it through. Delegating voting power is really great idea. And one way of achieving this is with **social smart contracts**, I am not 100% certain how to form **smart contracts** on Steem, but I do know that it is possible. 
One way I thought was to **hire contract**. Let's say **Whale** goes on vacation and would post announcement about delegating voting power. Title and content of the post would include some parameters (e.g. reputation, number of posts, etc. of candidates). Then there would be external script which checks blockchain for hire posts with given time span and parsing parameters and would hire candidates who commented on post and has/passed suitable parameters. 
Every couple of hours it would send stats to whale how the contractor is behaving, so whale can easily **undelegate** his voting power from particular user. 
Perhaps, this is feasible right now **on-chain** rather than **off-chain**?
Also, _body_ of post easily can hold script on blockchain, if we have proper way of parsing post content, we would have **on-chain social smart contract**, though this requires a lot of research and testing because there can be malicious scripts, etc.. Any comment on this would be appreciated, as I think, this can be really great feature.
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@iamrohitkgupta · 
Nice to see your efforts! :)
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@inertia ·
$0.08
http://lh4.ggpht.com/renjithsmenon/SIr1BVtgkhI/AAAAAAAAA5w/ruCh51P5at0/google-pagerank-comic-cartoon%5B8%5D.gif?imgmax=800
👍  , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (12)
@juanmiguelsalas · 
hahahaha u won my upvote too :D
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@rcmdantas · 
master yoda of steemit I want to be... 
and may the upvote be with me... ^^
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stacydebrew · 
You are so wrong. :P I heard that in "Yoda voice" in my head as I read it. lol :)
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@warrensteem · 
this made me lol. take an upvote
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@intelliguy · 
One of the problems I find, is that people don't seem to be curating comments as much as they should.  Which is the real meat and potatoes which brings more engagement to the content on steem.

I wrote about it [just last night](https://steemit.com/steemit/@intelliguy/as-the-russian-hacker-would-say-you-ve-been-leaving-comments-all-wrong-now-i-show-you-the-right-way) but I scrolled off already. :)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@jdenismusic · 
Looking forward to the growth of steemit! Cheers mate!!
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@jenelyn · (edited)
How can we solve the issue where extremely well written informative posts are getting bypassed and not voted on, while considerably lower quality posts are making thousands. It is very disheartening for an author to spend a week or more on a post to have it fizzle out with a payout of .03 cents. We need curators voting purely for high quality, informative quality posts, as well as the other "crap" people, vote on as well, or you just loose quality authors over time.

Or am I incorrect in thinking that Steemit really isn't looking for high-quality informative posts really? If the goal is to be more like Facebook or Twitter, than many authors are wasting a ton of their time creating useful posts.

And yes I am going to use 2 of my posts as examples. I spent a FREAKING ton of time creating both of these posts below. Now before I get jumped on, these posts are not meant to appeal to the masses, but they are informative, high quality with a ton of useful information FOR THOSE who are looking for it. It deserves votes for that fact, but currently, there is no way to get those votes because people are not voting on posts based on these premises unless they personally find it useful. We need voters who vote based outside their own scopes of interest.

Post #1 - [SCAM ALERT - Scams to Look Out For While Traveling](https://steemit.com/scam-alert/@jenelyn/traveling-soon-scams-to-look-out-for-while-traveling)

Post #2 - [A Travelers Guide to Filipino Food](https://steemit.com/food/@jenelyn/a-travelers-guide-to-filipino-food-steemit-original)

I am not looking for votes from posting these here, but I believe both deserve it, I am looking for a debate and some thoughts, answers and ideas from @dan and everyone else.

Another thing I wanted to bring to light here is my husband and I have been doing an unofficial "test" when it comes to types of posts that will get votes on Steemit. He has been focused more on Humor with funny useful takeaways. Where I have focused on recipes and helpful useful guides with high-quality useful information.

Here is an example of one of his posts -- [HIS TEST POST #1](https://steemit.com/steemit/@fat-like-buddha/fat-like-buddha-s-secret-recipe-to-steemit-sometimes-when-you-are-drunk-you-write-better-i-drink-because-i-write-and-i-write)

So far our tests conclude that unestablished names do not currently get votes right now (the majority of the time) or if you are not on a whales list. The interesting things are we both have been writing online articles for years and have done well, just not here on Steemit.

In the end, I believe the voting system needs a lot of work to actually benefit, reward and be worthwhile for authors and writers to stay on Steemit long term.

Any feedback on my which I feel are valid concerns is welcome from anyone.

Thanks for taking the time to read this,

♥♥ Jen ♥♥​
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@innuendo · 
The idea of delegated curation is meant to address the very problem you describe. Right now those who have actual voting power are not able to track all new posts.
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@jeremyfromwi · 
This is a good example of forward thinking, and it's nice to see a willingness to make changes for the greater good. In a true free market the distribution of power is never going to be equal, however, this will go a long ways towards mitigating the abuse of power by the privileged few.
![](http://i.imgsafe.org/aee9ca8c5e.jpg)
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@johnsmith ·
$162.98
Steemit is still flying under the radar, but if and when it goes viral there will be a social media war. Facebook, Reddit, YouTube, Wordpress, LinkedIn, Pinterest... all will suddenly looking to close the giant black hole that is sucking away their users. Preparing for a coordinated and well capitalized bad whale attack may very well be life-or-death in the coming months. Kudos to Dan for getting on this now!
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (22)
@bbrewer · 
Wow, scary thought! I am glad it is being worked on too. Maybe we can convert the bad whales that infiltrate from those other platforms! Maybe not ol' Zucky himself though. Would we ever want to limit the amount of Steem Power that can be purchased?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@pc101 · 
Well said, yes this is how I see it playing out also. At the moment its like preparing the armour before you know exactly the nature of the attack to come.
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@professorx · 
Steemit is the NAFTA of social media. Giant sucking sound.
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@jtstreetman · 
@dantheman  Thank you so much for allowing us all, even us "Noobs" into what seems to be the "Boardroom" and not only allowing us to listen but to actually contribute to the construction of what seems to me to be much akin to the writing of the "US Constitution & the Bill of Rights" of a new world. Unbelievable to able to watch and witness what will I believe will become a "Historical Event" I am totally in awe ! Keep up the great work !
Read More, Reason More ... JTS
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@keithsmih · 
Something definitely needs to be done Dan. I write one article and it gets lots of money and is half as good as the 7 chapters of Cryptowars i released today which will probably get 50 cents. I have been told today that the writing should be reaching many more people...  I would rather get paid nothing in exchange for my writing reaching more people. I love steemit and everything they are doing but there is still work to be done.
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@keithsmih · 
I would like to add, there should be a short story/book section added so that those looking to read a little more than a short article and a authors can be rewarded for efforts. Authors who write about saving the world get my vote over boobs and drugs any day
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@timcliff · (edited)
I'm not sure what style of story you like to read, but you may find this one interesting. I've been following this author and reading each chapter, and have really enjoyed the writing so far. I would describe it as a young adult fantasy adventure story. There are 17 chapters published on Steemit, and he is continuing to post more: <a href="https://steemit.com/created/beatrix-percival">Beatrix Percival</a> by @artist1989.
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@timcliff · (edited)
I agree. The site does a very good job at taking a few well written articles and getting them up to the top, but there is a **lot** of good content that goes unnoticed/under-noticed. Finding a solution to that problem, so that more good content gets exposed to larger audiences would be a huge improvement for Steemit!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@kenjiby · 
This could actually work, but its all about selfishness of individuals,  so if we can overstep this could be great
>It is critical that the masses of dolphins, minnows, and good whales, have the power to efficiently neutralize bad actors for the benefit of all. I am committed to building a system that empowers people who work for the benefit of all and disempowers those who attempt to work against the best interest of the wider community.
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@kennyskitchen · 
Thanks for everything you do @dantheman!

Just wanted to let you know that my new post "The 40 anarchists you want to follow on Steemit!" is up, and you're on the list :-) You can find it [here](https://steemit.com/anarchy/@kennyskitchen/the-40-anarchists-you-want-to-be-following-on-steemit)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@knozaki2015 · 
I see the problem, that Facebook and all other companies will be able to buy very cheap Steem and then start destroying the platform.

So a solution to not only one bad whale, but 10 bad whales might be important in the near future. 

Once we reach milestones like 100.000.000 Users with Steemit, this wont be an issue, but i predict that until at least 10.000.000 users are in Steemit, this might be a latent danger we are facing.
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@lanimal · 
It's  great that you're thinking seriously about how to improve the system and keep Steemit decentralised!
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@leksimus · (edited)
Transferring of vests must be done since even its to hard to curate current state to satisfy users. For now, it's just whales game and they do all the curation, we poor ones just do shit at curating. Even distribution of steempower would mean fairer votes and would bring up the quality of platform up. I don't even need it to be transferred I just need stronger steempower up to a point my vote means something. Otherwise, it's useless for me to curate content and for a majority of users. Dilution of steempower through platform would mean health for a platform (and it would need to be short one). As a consequence of that, there would be even more inflation of steem, which would surely drop down the price of steem since no one would need to buy it.
This brings next problem in perspective. New users that would come would again be powerless and there would be new distribution interval and so on.
Best case scenario would be to come to the distribution that equals to gauss function, on the sides are users with most and least with SP currently in the middle are ones that are in the middle now, where they now have the most power to vote but not in ownership. After that have a fresh start.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Empirical_Rule.PNG

That power can stay in ownership with the current owner but should be transferred to those that are most productive to shape this space and later returned. Ownership within platform would still benefit its owners (rising up in value​) but would be distributed in a better way.
Furthermore, that would mean that those that are making content would again have the most power and not those that vote right, but would certainly help the situation because this is meant to be content creation platform, not just ownership or money platform.
Security mechanisms for control are needed and disabling off upvoting own content would need to take place.
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@linkback-bot-v0 · 
<div>  <p>  This post has been linked to from another place on Steem.  </p>  <ul>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemituniversity/@derekareith/steemit-university-emergent-education"> Steemit University - Emergent Education </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@derekareith">  @derekareith </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@razvanelulmarin/delegating-steempower-the-best-idea-since-the-invention-of-sliced-bread"> Delegating SteemPower  - The best idea since the invention of sliced bread?! </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@razvanelulmarin">  @razvanelulmarin </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@ubg/can-you-lend-me-a-hand"> Can you lend me a hand? </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@ubg">  @ubg </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@recursive/a-discussion-of-dan-s-people-rank-proposal-complex-potential-flaws-is-it-really-necessary"> A discussion of Dan's "People Rank" proposal: complex, potential flaws, is it really necessary? </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@recursive">  @recursive </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/education/@derekareith/steemit-s-model-applied-to-education"> Steemit's Model Applied to Education </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@derekareith">  @derekareith </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@opheliafu/a-thinking-doodle"> A thinking doodle </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@opheliafu">  @opheliafu </a>     </li>        <li>      <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@dwinblood/two-sides-to-every-fence-the-voting-down-voting-saga-continues"> Two sides to every fence...   the voting, down voting, saga continues... </a>      by      <a href="https://steemit.com/@dwinblood">  @dwinblood </a>     </li>      </ul>  <p> Learn more about  <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@ontofractal/steem-linkback-bot-v0-3-released">    linkback bot v0.3</a>   </p>   <p>Upvote if you want the bot to continue posting linkbacks for your posts. Flag if otherwise.   Built by @ontofractal</p></div>
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@liondani · (edited)
$195.57
https://i.imgsafe.org/cd1a35180d.jpg

Just take into account that **the simulations you made was on past behavior** where they didn't know about the new **"page rank" algorithm** you want to implement now... I don't take a position here... I am just curious how the community will adjust their behavior when they exactly  **know** how the new rules are "working"...

**PS** Remember what we thought about the future of the "comments" on our platform and the "rules" we abandoned the last minute... without new rules and the comments are working just fine....
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (26)
@bendjmiller222 · 
Not only are comments working fine, but there is a system in place to keep spam and trolls in check (although with the loss of @wang). 

What other site has managed to accomplish this, while at the same time monetarily reward users for commenting with value?

I had begun to lose hope as a certain frequent "troll" started making my life miserable and quite a few others. I originally would have tried to rip him a new one, but through learning from Rok-Sivante's open letter to the hacker decided to put myself in the "trolls" shoes (however filthy they might be).

The next day the reputation system dropped and his comments were made invisible unless you clicked to see and his posts were greyed out. Absolutely brilliant way to work on a decentralized platform. He isn't silenced, but his vocal cords have been removed and he now has a whisper, which was the result of karma. 

He still can slowly work his way back into a reputation that allows more people to see his content. 

This is the opposite of what Twitter did with Milo Yiannopoulos [Twitter Permanently Suspends Conservative Writer Milo Yiannopoulos](https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarzel/twitter-just-permanently-suspended-conservative-writer-milo?utm_term=.ehWvA7MONz#.tjlX6GxAQp). And @dollarvigilante hinted Milo may be coming to steemit.

>And I am working on many more even bigger names. I'm currently trying to convince a friend named Milo, amongst others.

This could be huge, since a centralized platform silenced someone for what I felt was a very minor tweet.

That being said, the way comments have evolved, I have confidence that the "page rank" algorithm or any other idea that gets rolled out in the near future will be innovative and solve the current problem of scalability and voting from a single account by distributing voting to trusted people instead of one. Because even if you can have multiple people log into one account, the many different voters will still use the same voting power of the users account (unless something else has been implemented).

Great minds are working on this. From the hack, to the comment section changes, to the reputation system, developers have performed far better than I could have hoped and this is only BETA!
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@thedashguy · 
Hahaha I'm so glad they added images for comments, that makes this place golden sometimes XD
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@macartem · 
Nice post. Follow you
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@mammasitta · 
Pure joy to see how everybody is working so hard for improvement but its kind of hard to say who are the bad and who the good guys? I can only figure that out by myself and this is very subjective.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@merej99 · 
@dantheman - I know your intentions are for the good of all and I really hope for a utopian-like place on the internet.  Being new to the forum, I already know it has great potential (otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time trying so hard to do a good job here).  
I find that I seek out new and trending posts to catch a wave.  Sometimes my upvote increases a users wallet.  For this post, I think it actually went down a dollar (Sorry about that.)  
I'm here to give myself a real opportunity to find good content, contribute and help those who come in behind me. Increasing my voting power would be AMAZING!  #DoGoodThings
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@timcliff · 
I've had that happen too, and I'm pretty sure it is not your vote causing it to go down. When you vote on something, it causes the price to refresh. The price is constantly fluctuating up and down. Your vote itself probably caused it to go up slightly, or at least stay the same.
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@michaellamden68 · 
http://i.imgur.com/qNB3QvY.gif?noredirect
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@moneymaker · 
When will it be implemented?
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@mrosenquist · 
I have drafted a more detailed proposal based on my ideas outline in the first post.  Take a look and let me know.  
https://steemit.com/steemit/@mrosenquist/steemit-proposal-for-developer-and-community-evaluation
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@nekromarinist · 
read your two recent articles, a lot became clear about  the process of mutual relations and distribution of resources  on Steamit, I agree with you in many aspects. Unfortunately there will always be unconscionable people, on the other side their presence makes us change and progress, much has been done and I'm sure more will be done. It’s cool that you are not indifferent and let others know
my favourite steempic for you
https://img1.steemit.com/0x0/https://pp.vk.me/c631925/v631925586/3ef07/jm3dyJpsWRc.jpg
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@nessacute · 
Is this people rank algoritm affecting steem price?
Its seem steem price down rapidly under 2 usd/steem
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@newandold · 
Hi Dan,
I have a background in mathematics and computing, and I'm pretty smart and my focus is currently focused on this SteemIt project. Is there somewhere where I can get more information about what exactly this "bad whale" problem is? I'm having trouble expressing it mathematically from the information I've read so far.

I'd love to help with this issue.
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@nippel66 · 
I lock forwoard to an more fair and great volume on post votes. I think this project you thinking out now could be a great opotunity for steemit. I think also a part of the develoing could be hard in the start. But i hope you figure it out.
I am glad to be an early adopter of this, and join the journey thru developing and beta.

Keep up the good work, i realy like this project.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@nxtblg · 
@dantheman :

If you're serious about adding PageRank to Steemit, you'd better have a talk with [Matt Cutts](https://www.mattcutts.com/blog/) He's the head of Google's anti-spam team. I'm sure he'll be glad to describe the many ways that unethical -SEOers have gamed Google's system.

Case in point: a simple way to game PageRank, although long cracked down on by Google, was a so-called "link farm." Before it had become a paying proposition, link-farm runners would arrange to form a citation-circle arrangement wherein each member would link to the others' so as to boost every member's PageRank. 

There are more sophisticated ways to game PageRank, and Mr. Cutts will know an awful lot about them. Just to let you know: ways to do so are known as "black hat off-page SEO."

Might as well learn from the best; it'll likely be easier than learning the hard way. ;)
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@oecp85 · 
Talking about Evil Whales problem, @dantheman you send me to the darkness here:  https://steemd.com/steem-help/@oecp85/re-liberosist-mind-your-votes-an-investigation-and-guide-to-maximizing-your-curation-rewards-20160729t151659123z i just can think that you Thought that i´m a bot, but i´m not. you can check my activity no spam or something, please just take 1 minute to check it. please show me the ligth again.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@iamrohitkgupta · 
are you on <a href="https://steemit.chat">rocketchat</a>?<p> if not, signup and join #steemitabuse-appeals
👍  
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vote details (1)
@oecp85 · 
ok i will, thanks for the info my friend.
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@pc101 · 
man o man, your Reputation is 2! Out of interest, what was your reputation before you got flagged? Hope you can get back on track.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@oecp85 · 
yes is sad, my REP was 5 before the update after the update drop to 2, even the new accounts start with 25 REP is really unfair. :-(
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@omfedor · 
> I am committed to building a system that empowers people who work for the benefit of all and disempowers those who attempt to work against the best interest of the wider community.

But the question arises, who will decide what is useful and what is harmful for Steemit? And if those who decide make a mistake? What if one whale will offer a better solution than the hundreds of dolphins?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dantheman ·
$0.04
Those who have the most to lose have the most say.  There is no other way.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@doctorstrange · 
So if a hypothetical "evil cabal of corporations" wanted to make their bad whales to subvert the system, there is no recourse, right? We just have to live with the 'might makes right' system? 

If I am not mistaken some weeks ago you made the point of corporations buying in and advertisement, sorry I can't recall what exactly you said, but essentially you expect that there will be some future actors with deep pockets that will then be able to exert their influence. It seems like that eventuality needs some way of curtailing it's potential for harm. And if that is the case, then perhaps the notion of "Those who have the most to lose have the most say" needs to be adjusted in some fashion.

Considering this platform, if it lives up to it's ultimate potential, can disrupt the business model of so many industries, the possibility of just such a subversion is probable. It's not even illegal (not like *that* would prevent them anyway).

I understand that there is more to the algorithm than that statement, but it would seem that we can't be married to that idea as an immutable fact. There is the possibility of there being some other way.
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@omfedor · 
But it turns out that the power will be in the hands of a certain group of rich people. What is the difference with current social system? Nowadays in modern society the power belongs to the group of rich people who are corrupt and ceased to think about the interests of the majority. Steemit will give power to another group of rich people. How can you be sure that they will not act as irresponsibly as some of the current leaders of society?

Please don't get me wrong, Dan. I ask these questions not because I'm against you, but because I want to make Steemit more perfect.
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@omfedor · (edited)
The difficulty is to determine what is good and what is bad for Steemit. This is the difficulty. It's like in medicine. One good doctor can prescribe the right treatment, while ten bad doctors will prescribe wrong. But if they have the same power of voice, the patient will not recover.
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@omfedor · (edited)
$2.43
>Creating a distributed, self-governing, mob that works reliably to allocate resources for the betterment of the whole rather than the individual is challenging.

I don't want to get too philosophical, but the problem is a good leader. You can't replace a good leader with ten bad. It won't work. You can't replace a good doctor ten bad. It is not equivalent replacement.

I would have thought about the criteria of a good leader. It would be right, in my opinion, to develop a system of symptoms, which can give a numerical assessment of the quality of leadership of the person.
And it would be right to think about the system of education which can make good leaders.

You have to make one good doctor. Ten bad doctors do not help. How to separate the bad from the good doctor. Here is what is in my opinion a significant issue.

What good is democracy if the people choose bad leaders. If people are not able to distinguish good leaders from bad. If you don't think about it, all the problems of the existing social system will appear here.
👍  , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (11)
@pc101 · 
If I were a rival social media platform it might be in my interest to invest in Steemit and then act as a bad whale as a way of discrediting it. It's good to see there are proactive plans and community awareness to tackle issues such as this.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@blow · 
It looks like paranoia
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@recursive · (edited)
$1.62
Google Page Rank uses a recursive algorithm because correlation across a high, diverse and strongly connected set of referrers is needed to make spoofing hard enough and thwart sybil attacks. In the case of Steem, the cost of Steem Power is enough to prevent sybil attacks in voting.

There are also potential attack vectors like denial-of-service attack based on leveraging the cycle detection algorithm from a linear increase of controlled accounts, or vote "double spend" as a side effect of reallocating delegated voting power just after a graph rebalancing.

More details in [this post](https://steemit.com/steem/@recursive/a-discussion-of-dan-s-people-rank-proposal-complex-potential-flaws-is-it-really-necessary)
👍  , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (12)
@robsteady · 
I just want to say I really appreciate the efforts at making this place a better community. I try to get out among the masses and do what I can to help, but I'm only one (relatively) small fish in this sea. I have a lot of faith in the ideals started here and I'm very excited to see how it progresses.
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@samether · 
Dragons have a weak point; their Belly! 

Let us study bad whales and suggest solutions to this problem.
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@serejandmyself · (edited)
Its all great, but how will you judge on who is the good guy and who is the bad guy? 

I mean its not as simple as it sounds. Especially by keeping the tag "freedom of speech"
👍  
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vote details (1)
@alexgr · 
The concept is that this will be done by the masses of good guys.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@bolseros · 
What about masses of bad guys?
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@shaheer001 · (edited)
I personally think page rank in steemit is not compulsory for curation rewards as the steemit itself have high page ranking and in google search any topic related to steemit tags or post title always show in front page.
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@shaheer001 · 
It is requested dear @dantheman please remove the flag from my post as you flag due to two  tags, I remove steemit tag but the first one steeimt  did not remove try several time but failed to remove so please remove flag from my post link is as below.
https://steemit.com/steeimt/@shaheer001/the-world-billinaires-the-richest-people-on-planet-2016
👍  
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vote details (1)
@liondani · 
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/55923251.jpg
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@sirwinchester · 
I already liked your post about google ranking  yesterday, that was really interesting and I noticed how well steemit posts rank in google already as well. And now thank you for sharing this post today, steemit changes  all the time and that shows how passionate and active the creators are caring for it, as if it was their own baby ;)
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@bendjmiller222 · 
Even though you are new (I am only a week or so older), you already came in with the mindset that has made you successful. 

I think we both see the changes that are coming and the potential to make this special that people begging for whale votes don't see. You got @stellabelle to notice your content too. Most people don't have that happen, so I can't say enough good things about where you are taking your brand. 

That's not circle jerk BS. Just happy for a fellow slightly obese minnow. 

You have the ability to change a lot of people's lives that will no doubt look to you as a mentor, and from what I have seen, you handle yourself intelligently and with integrity. Two I's that are incredibly valuable! If you ever need any help or wanna bounce ideas off each other for anything, feel free!
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@sompitonov · (edited)
In this system, we, the people steemit, will live comfortably and well. Thank you for making the system better!
>I am committed to building a system that empowers people who work for the benefit of all and disempowers those who attempt to work against the best interest of the wider community.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@steemitdude · 
scalability... definitely the hardest thing to work on.
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@ubg · 
Bitshares should handle heavier load than reddit is currently handling.  This means that the base technology shouldn't have any major issues until the bot armies arrive. The difficult part is not breaking already existing features of the site that work flawlessly. If you add something new there's a chance of breaking some mechanic that used to work before, but may not do so after the update.
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@stellabelle · (edited)
"I am committed to building a system that empowers people who work for the benefit of all and disempowers those who attempt to work against the best interest of the wider community." Music to my ears!
I am curious, what is the definition of a 'bad whale'? Someone who powers down and doesn't care about growing Steemit?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@summonerrk · 
Well done, thanks for tale care about problem of Evil Whales.
Steemit is a mechanism, which live and rise by users, but it need some effects by creators. Please, ahead with that, and dont forget to listen all of users!
Nice update.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@sunshinecrypto · 
I feel as though I am a very kind very active person in the steemit community, yet there is no solid  hierarchy  to compare myself too, which is why I do not.  I love steemit and ill keep posting until my brain cup runs dry. Viva la steemit!
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@t3ran13 · 
we need a Day of Whale Silence. it can shows how system work. While we can taste of whale taste)))
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@tcstix · 
Another good post.

Google has kind of even abandoned PageRank to an extent. It worked well for a while and now it's a lot more complex.

I don't think Steem should or will follow in those same steps because Google changes PageRank due to the time it was in. We're now in a post-PageRank era because it doesn't work with how the world is today.

Voting is good but that can be abused and manipulated as well.

I really think a more complex method is needed even though it would be nice if it would be kept simple.
properties (22)
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@the-alien · 
I just want to say that I fully support delegated voting.

Many of us try to contribute for the benefit of all, each one of us in our own ways, with both success and failures but it doens't matter.

But if there are some who like curating and reading and spend their time ans energy on the platform, it could be a great idea if some whale is busy that they can delegate their voting powers to other people.

Anyways,  thank you for all the work in trying to bring us this distributed system and maintaining it!
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@bendjmiller222 · 
Agreed some people like creating, some finding/promoting. There is room for many types of people here. 

Hopefully a decentralized marketplace can be implemented so and those that neither like blogging or curating can still sell items at extremely low exchange fees unlike ebay. The reputation system should keep people in check and prevent abuse.
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@thecryptofiend ·
$162.45
Thanks @dantheman:).  

Looks like you are moving forward with this quickly.

Whilst I agree the bad whale problem exists and could likely become more of a problem as the platform becomes bigger, I think community vigilance will be key here as it often is.

We have already seen the community point out when things are inherently unfair or when people are misbehaving in a way that goes against the spirit of the platform:  

We have seen successful campaigns to weed out those committing fraud, plagiarism and other methods to game the system and those that harm the community.

I believe part of this is because people on Steemit feel they have a personal stake in this platform.  We all believe in it and we want to succeed.  

I would never have said the same for Facebook even at my height of using that platform because to me Facebook was a faceless corporation using me and my fellow users to make money.  

I never felt like I had any kind of say in what they did and I absolutely never felt like I had a stake in it's success or failure.  If it died I would simply have moved on to a new platform.

That is what is beautiful about Steemit and what is most powerful about it.  

As long as you and @ned and the team keep listening, evolving and incorporating us into the equation than we will be able to deal with all problems as they arise.

I look forward to the continuing evolution of Steemit.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (15)
@treeleaves · 
I was thinking about how whales have so much power, but limited time to choose content.  Delegating voting power is an awesome idea with much potential.
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@ubg ·
$0.73
Maybe even add a feature, where you can set the % of how much you split your delegated curation rewards.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@uncommoncents · 
Really like your ideas on how this platform could be improved for the betterment of all involved. We need a better way to grow and an equalizer so everyone can become empowered. I am just starting to learn here and it seems that the Wales are eating the minnows!
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@vi1son ·
$163.56
A bold statement, but I hope everyone can work together to achieve this.
> I am committed to building a system that empowers people who work for the benefit of all and disempowers those who attempt to work against the best interest of the wider community.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (26)
@senseiteekay · 
Statement's like this one are the reason I spend half my life here now. Viva La Steemit!
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@vishal1 · 
nice
properties (22)
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@xroni · (edited)
good luck!
👍  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
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