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RC Attack Mode: Activated! by edicted

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com
· @edicted ·
$16.64
RC Attack Mode: Activated!
<center>![steemlogo1.png](https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/edicted/1RikncAI-steem-logo1.png)
</center>

Last Thursday was my last big Steem powerdown.  Now I only have the 1750 (and counting) coins left that I earned while I was powering down.  I was debating if I would keep or dump these coins (and I'm still not sure) but considering everything that has gone down with HF24 it certainly pushes me in one direction over another (can you guess which?). 

-----

### I feel like I finally have enough Bitcoin so I've started to load back up on Ethereum.  
Turns out I was able to use my MetaMask BIPS seed on my new Trezor and get access to the coins that way as well.  How convenient.  Of course if the coins get stolen I won't know if I should blame Metamask or Trezor, lol.  

-----

# In any case, 
Now that I am no longer worried about my funds being frozen, I've turned my sights to potentially attacking the Steem network.  I was randomly taking a look at this post the other day: 

https://peakd.com/steemdev/@edicted/65-kb-max-length-post-keywords-javascript-steem-api

# Yep!
I filled up an entire block with garbage just to see if I could.   It costs quite a bit of Resource Credits to do it, but there are still a lot of whales on Steem who never started a powerdown.  Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that the accounts that had their accounts frozen by the soft fork didn't start filling up all the blocks themselves.  They still had access to post custom JSON which is what you want because it costs the least RCs for the most bandwidth. 

<center>![attack.jpg](https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/edicted/49tXOUMM-attack.jpg)
</center>

# Would it be stupid to attack Steem?
I'm guessing it would be.  When we forked to Hive we showed those noobs how to freeze accounts and eventually funnel stake into other accounts.  If we attack them with our RCs they are going to do the same back to us.  What will be the result? 

### We'd see how broken the RC system is!

I've talked about this quite a few times, but the way we set up the RC system will eventually come back to haunt us. 

https://peakd.com/steem/@edicted/steem-bandwidth-extremely-undervalued-resource

https://peakd.com/gaming/@edicted/creating-digital-assets-with-steem-s-resource-credits

Essentially, in order for users with less stake to even use the blockchain, we had to reduce the cost of transactions by a huge margin (at least a factor of 10 RC).  When blocks start filling up we'll have to raise RC costs and this will prevent a lot of accounts from posting transactions.  At this point we will enable RC pools to try and correct the problem. 

https://www.coindesk.com/free-transactions-invite-systemic-attacks-on-blockchains-researchers-find

I randomly read this post the other day and it really struck a chord.  This is very accurate, blockchains that offer free transactions will get attacked at one point or another.  

### Resource Credits won't be free forever. 
It probably sounds silly now, but once our blocks start filling up and there is actually competition to post information on our blockchain, shit is going to get real.  The costs of RCs will go up.  Witnesses will implement RC pools to "fix" the problem, but that will actually make it worse. 

#### How could it get worse with RC pools?
Once RC are in place and it is established that RCs are actually worth money, all of those RCs that the whales currently just let go to waste will be monetized.  Today, all the whales are just letting their RCs sit at 100% or they are claiming account tokens without putting any stress on the network. 

Once blocks fill up and RC pools are implemented, whales will suddenly find that their gigantic RC pools are worth something.  They will start selling bandwidth on the blockchain, and this will even further raise RC costs for every operation and raise the bar for others.  This is a serious problem that no one considers because it is such a non-issue at the moment.  

# Bandwidth attack
If Steem and Hive start attacking each other it's going to become a prominent issue quite quickly.  Blocks have a maximum size of 65k.  If we were filling them up to the max we'd be adding over a gigabyte of data to the blockchain every day. Somehow I doubt that our servers would be able to handle this extra load, and even if they could, it would obviously be more expensive. 

### What kind of idiot attacks their own investment? 
That's somewhat the point of cryptocurrency, amirite?  The idea is that the network gives incentive to build value rather than attack it, and get rewarded accordingly.  It's hard to justify an attack on either side, no matter how much we're seeking revenge.  Something to think about. 

Still, even if there is no attack, the blockchain will eventually get bogged down by legitimate transactions.  This is going to become a prominent issue, one way or another.  We simply aren't considering it because the competition to post information to this immutable database is non-existent at the moment. 
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 130 others
👎  
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vote details (195)
@apofis ·
$0.04
RC have an internal market that dinamically updates the "price" of each transaction type based on three metrics:

- Transaction size.
- State
- Replay time

Attacking the network with custom json operations will increase the price of them and limit the attack. That would suck for everyone else.

The witnesses can also decline transactions coming from specific accounts with another softfork  so an attack would not last for a long time...maybe.

Posted Using [LeoFinance](https://leofinance.io/@apofis/qby5j9)
👍  
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@edicted ·
Yeah that's my concern, because if you start blocking accounts with softforks just because they are posting data to the blockchain, then the blockchain is 100% broken.  Witnesses don't get to decide which operations have value and which ones don't.  You pay the network cost to transact, you get to post the operation.  End of story.  

What if I start posting books to the blockchain or code from GitHub?  Does a witness get to come along and tell me: "no! that doesn't have value!"  ??? If they do it shows the entire system is broken. 
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@apofis ·
I agree, it's still possible if the top 20 agree on doing it. It then would be up to stakeholders to remove them from consensus. It's more likely to happen on steem though. I am wondering how long would it take for the internal RC market to adjust to the increased demand.

Technically the blockchain would not stop with "spam" operations it would just be more expensive to transact and witness nodes would have an increased cost over time and replay time will get bigger with blocks filled to the max.

I think that right now it's cheaper to transact on steem because the effective SP being used is about half that of hive (less transactions = lower RC cost) so it's easier to "spam" it.

Posted Using [LeoFinance](https://leofinance.io/@apofis/qbzut2)
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@fknmayhem ·
Tbh there's a much easier way than soft forks. Node operators (RPC nodes), which are the true gateway between the interfaces and the blocks, can easily implement a filter to block accounts which cause heavy load (higher than average cost, spammers, attackers).

That type of "blacklist" can be maintained without need for a softfork. And even be implemented by multiple node operators as well.
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@apofis ·
You can still broadcast a transaction with a different node or maintain your own..easier said than done.
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@apshamilton ·
$0.04
Very interesting. 

Your devil's advocate posts are much better when they are about topics in which you really know your stuff!
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@edicted · (edited)
You don't like it when I just make shit up off the top of my head as it relates to your field? 
#  💩 Party pooper! 💩
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@baah ·
$0.05
How about votes? Votes are worth something now, not in some future, then applying your logic of "if whales realize RC are valuable" to votes, by now id expect vote selling to commence once again, no?
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@edicted ·
Vote selling got hamstrung by free downvotes.  
No one is willing to buy votes because the content will just get downvoted for free. 
So yeah, whales would like to sell their votes, but no one is buying. 
Rather than sell votes for a discount, it is more profitable to just curate content as intended. 

There's a good chance a lot of whales/orca's simply give away their RCs for free so the plankton can transact, especially if the reason everyone is trying to transact is some new killer dapp.  However, when RCs get really really scarce they will be worth a lot of money.  Of course at that point the things that can be accomplished with RCs are also worth a lot of money so the cost of RCs will likely be vastly mitigated by network synergy.  Should be interesting. 
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@baah ·
It seems like a few paradoxes:

Whales would like to sell their votes but they voted for the hard fork which made vote selling not profitable.

Whales would sell their RC's but they would rather give them away.

RC's would be worth a lot of money but synergy between whales and plankton would make transactions more valuable, and rcs about as 'valuable' as right now (enough to make spamming the network as a nobody a worthless endeavor, more or less one of the reasons why they exist).


In one post you implicate the whales as thieves and in another as benevolent self regulating guardians. Riddle me this, is consensus above all else, or is there anything that stands above that? 


#weeklateandstillsharpAF
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@brianoflondon ·
$0.04
I read through your other series of 5 posts, very informative. This does sound like a significant weakness. To be honest, I have a friend who has been very sceptical about blockchain for social media. He is working on a distributed social network system (he's been working on it for years and has a patent). I loosely understand what he's doing but it is from the point of view of a closed source system. I think the architecture looks like the federated system of Mastadon but is way more efficient.

I'd love him to come and look at Hive more closely because I feel absolutely sure that his approach could live alongside Hive and help scale... I'll tag him, but I've got my work cut out to get him looking here. @davidboxenhorn 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
Unfortunately patents stifle creativity and innovation and claim to do the opposite.  Intellectual property will be outdated in the future.  No one is going to own IP; such is crypto.  The value of open systems and collaboration is too strong.  I wish him the best though regardless of the inevitable outcome.  Hopefully he can sell the IP to a corporation for a small fortune. 
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@brianoflondon ·
I tend to agree but everyone has a different view on patents vs open source. I can see how much it will cost to turn his patent into a working system, and how there is absolutely nobody who'll work on that without payment up front.
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@holoz0r ·
$0.05
Doesn't this basically make the chain the premise for Larimer's Voice? 

Pay (RC) to want to post something. Someone else pays (more RC) to post something at the same time. Only one thing gets through. Kind of like if you pay an enormous fee on ETH you can get your transaction fast tracked?

RCs do feel pretty undervalued right now, they're the true way of ensuring your voice is heard, and the best thing about them, is in order to have them, you have to have stake vested, leased, or delegated to you. 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
Not really sure about how this relates to voice. 
Every blockchain has a cost to transact, even if it is a "free" resource. 
They would be too easy to DDOS otherwise. 

Also, I'm pretty sure no one can choose to pay more RCs for something just yet.  The cost of things is currently a standard flat-fee for everyone across the board.  The witness nodes simply decide what operation they are going to include and what they won't.  You bring up a good reminder that we will probably have to program in this type of auction system. 
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@holoz0r ·
$0.28
Uncontrolled rambling is what I tend to be best at - I'm not a block chain engineer, but there's lots of solutions. Let's hope that fast, cheap storage, and RAM continues to become cheaper to ensure scalability. 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@lordbutterfly ·
$0.04
Reminds me of the cold war conflict. If both parties have a weapon that assures mutual destruction, the weapon never gets used. :)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
Yes exactly, except in this situation I kinda think we should use the weapon and then adapt to the problem more quickly because we actually have devs and we need to do it eventually anyway just for legitimate scaling purposes. 

Also it is a decentralized decision to use the weapon.  Anyone with RCs on Steem can start filling up blocks with garbage. I was testing it out last night:

https://steempeak.com/test/@edicted/rc-test

I added 1MB to the Steem blockchain last night and I wake up in the morning and almost have all my RCs back.  I only have 1333 Steem Power.  Seems like a single whale could start adding 50KB to every block if they wanted to. 
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@lyubo19 ·
$0.02
Wow! Amazing post :) You know your stuff very well!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@mys ·
$0.04
I was doing similar stress test shortly after fork https://steemd.com/b/41845285#645381beee9632ef28948e1e6955f900c7bb4a9b
Was posting 40kB of random data every block into blockchain (this is a limit one account can throw every 3 sec). Zeroed my RC worth 10k SP in 1-2 hours.
The more we stresstest - the less is our power becaues RC system is self-adjusting. In the long term I could spam less and less.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
Ah, nice work. 

>([40KB] this is a limit one account can throw every 3 sec)

That's not quite accurate.  It's pretty easy to go up as high as 50KB.  I was just doing it. 

The max block size is 65KB so if 2 accounts tried to post 40KB on the same block one of them would get denied or simply bumped to the next witness. 
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@edicted ·
Imagine like millions of SP though and how much data could be pumped into the blocks... might even regenerate RCs faster than you lose them with enough Power.  Probably better to just stay constructive and build useful stuff though. 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@preparedwombat ·
$0.04
>They will start selling bandwidth on the blockchain, and this will even further raise RC costs for every operation and raise the bar for others.

Why and how? ELI5
👍  
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
Because right now they are throwing all that bandwidth away because it is worthless.  When it becomes worth something all the whales will stop throwing away their bandwidth and sell it instead (for market price). Competition to get data on the blocks will skyrocket, and the RC costs of operations will spike because the market will be flooded with whale RCs.  Because RCs are now worth > 0 they will get sold on the free market for cheap, so it might end up costing x100 the RC to post something to the blockchain. 

Does this make sense?  I feel like it's still just as convoluted as before. 
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@preparedwombat ·
>RC costs of operations will spike because the market will be flooded with whale RCs

But if the market will be flooded, wouldn’t supply/demand considerations mean that costs would be *low* rather than spiking?
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@patrickulrich ·
$0.04
If blocks become full then witnesses raise the cost of a tx. The pool then will allow, currently unused, RC to be sold and used the currently is not used. This added RC availability means users will buy the unused RC to bid for their content to make it in a block. This will in turn mean that it takes more RC to get in a block so smaller accounts now need to buy more to get their message out. This will continue compounding to the point where it takes a lot of RC just to get your message out because now the cost of each tx in terms of RC will be multiple times more than it is currently.
👍  
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vote details (1)