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Scaling up: Permissionless networks don't get a choice. by edicted

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com
· @edicted · (edited)
$40.55
Scaling up: Permissionless networks don't get a choice.
<center>
![scale-scaling.png](https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/edicted/EpNtFC7twrhL7QsoUpLBePdjyDgcknb5mTvr4snCZxgaQK3SxGxfYf2Q3W7rJxgzp6o.png)</center>


#### What do I mean by this?
Imagine a developer came in to Hive and built a very successful porn app.  Imagine this porn app was so profitable and so popular that essentially the app bent Hive to its will; perhaps bent Hive over is a better term in this context. 

#### What happens then? 
The app takes 99% of Hive's bandwidth.  Most people do not realize that [Hive has a max blocksize of 65KB.](https://peakd.com/steemdev/@edicted/65-kb-max-length-post-keywords-javascript-steem-api)  That's 65KB... every three seconds... for the ENTIRE network (~22KB/sec). That's basically running the entire network on 56k modem speeds, and we call this "scalable".  Pretty funny. 

Literally anyone who makes a popular app on Hive is going to bring this network to its knees (another accidental porn reference?).  65KB is nothing, and if you think we can just "increase the blocksize" then you don't understand what that actually means.  Splinterlands adoption has already torn API nodes a new asshole once or twice and the blocks aren't even filled up yet.  Spoiler alert: an API node bottleneck has absolutely nothing to do with on-chain bandwidth or resource credits.  We need a totally separate scaling solution for bottlenecks like that. 

<div class="pull-right">  https://images.hive.blog/DQma9UB2Rzb8RufNaZ24v7ojPfRW9YgUGqqAQy9Sz9qtJEB/assci-porn1.png  </div>


###### So back to the porn example.
This app becomes very profitable and it starts choking the rest of the network as resources become scarce.  The founder of the app realizes the importance of powering up Hive so he uses profits from the app to do so.  He also convinces his users to power up Hive, delegating their RCs to the porn app's pool, further choking the supply of RCs.  He incentivizes this behavior by creating a native token for the porn app and distributing that token to those delegating RCs to the pool.  This app is very profitable and he needs all the bandwidth he can possibly get to offer new users free services and gain more traction. 

Now that the porn operator is issuing a native token for RCs, all the whales on Hive that have been wasting their RCs this entire time realize they can delegate to the porn app and just get free money on top of all the other gains they've made.  This, in turn, hyperinflates RCs even more, skyrocketing the price of posting data to the chain.  RCs themselves begin to acquire value, which skyrockets the price of Hive even further as we are one of the few networks that actually yield-farm on-chain bandwidth.

At this point all the other users on Hive are basically going to be shit out of luck.  You can't really blog on Hive anymore, because it's just more profitable to give your RCs to the porn app.  It's also more profitable to upvote the "content" on the porn app with Hive because the mechanics of the app reward you with the native token for doing so.  Wow, this developer really knows what he's doing, eh? 

#### Now Hive is a porn network.
Who could have ever seen this coming?  What a twist!  And there's really nothing we can do about it short of forking the network and removing the stake of the porn developer.  If you thought the Steem Hostile Takeover was contentious, just wait until someone suggests that we should steal money from an entity that followed all the rules of the network and brought legitimate demand to Hive.  Never gonna happen.  Let's be real: The Hive fork barely happened and Steemit Inc was an blatantly obvious enemy to all. 

<center>
![automationrobotphonlamaiphoto696x464.jpg](https://images.hive.blog/DQmSdMkiTgLKPXKm1iNeWuFMHf1xN7tUcTebK7sCfMGhnsd/automation-robot-phonlamaiphoto-696x464.jpg)</center>

-----

##### Game-theory doesn't decide how technology is used in practice. 
Game-theory thinks it knows what's going to happen, but never really fully does.  Something always gets in the way.  It might be small things that are largely inconsequential, or it might be huge things that change the entire game.  There's no way to know until we actually try. 

##### All blockchains are simulators. 
If the free-market decides that Hive is a porn network, then guess what?  Hive is a porn network now.  It's really as simple as that, and when we look at P2P porn sites like OnlyFans, Chatterbate and whatnot we can see that there is a huge chasm of demand waiting to be filled (I can't turn it off). 

Up until now, these P2P WEB2 sites have siphoned all the value from the service into their own pockets.  They control everything unilaterally and users do not own their data.  Should someone realize that WEB3 is the way to go in order to build value, we could easily see Hive "devolve" into a network that is pretty much exclusively used for WEB3 P2P porn.  Which, lets be honest, would be pretty damn disappointing for most users around here, but at the same time would be extremely profitable.  This value could then be transferred to another network or a second layer solution as those who did not agree with this direction decided to exit.  

#### Conclusion 
All those people who think Hive is a blogging platform are in for a rude awakening one of these days.  Whether it be gaming, porn, gambling, or whatever else, it is almost guaranteed that one day the market will pivot and lead this chain into a new direction.  Some users will embrace this change, and some will exit. 

Scaling is a constant struggle of two steps forward and one step back.  If we're being honest Hive is a network that rarely has to deal with scaling issues, but that's guaranteed to change sooner or later.  Our max blocksize is very small and the Internet is very large. 

When it really comes down to it, Hive could never ever scale as large as a centralized service.  How could it?  Twenty separate entities running 20 copies of the same code are somehow going to scale to the volume of a centralized solution?  It's not possible, and it doesn't need to be. 

It doesn't need to be because centralized services can connect to Hive with a thin thread, using Hive only for account security and value transfer.  This is also another possible fate of Hive (only used to move money around and create tokens/NFTs).  It all depends on what kind of scaling problems we face and when solutions to those problems come into play.  No matter how it happens, this process is fated to be a chaotic mess.  Such is the war of scaling technology up to acceptable levels of demand. 

This is the price we pay for being permissionless networks.  We have no emperor.  We have no leader or CEO.  The network will do whatever the network will do. This is the ultimate form of Chaos Theory hard at work.  I'm here for it.  Let's see where we end up. 
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 331 others
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vote details (395)
@allcapsonezero ·
$0.07
Consensus is an interesting beast, and when a blockchain is truly tested... it will find a way forward.  When st**m forked into Hive is one of the best examples.  If this blockchain gets overrun by porn and Hive users do not like it, we will find a way to get back to where we want to be (and make bank in the process).  
👍  
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@edicted ·
$0.45
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vote details (6)
@anomadsoul ·
$0.15
And I thought I was good at writing with puns, both intended and unintended, I guess I have to rise my game, harden it and give it a polish.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@carrinm ·
$0.07
We all know how well the porn industry has been able to scale. The gaming industry too - just look at play to earn. Gambling industry finds ways to get around the constraints. The investing industry has more rules to shake a stick at - this becomes a perfect battleground to slide away from the rules.

Feels like game on for dApps developers - get in on the game and keep the porn industry or any other likely winner subdued. 

Game on
👍  
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@clixmoney ·
Is it possible to delegate resource credits now or that's not working on hive yet ? Or maybe it's planned to work for the next hard fork ?
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@cristina-zac ·
$0.07
I think we have to increase the capacity of the network as there are more users now comparing to the past 
Splinterlands make a lot of people join hive recently
👍  
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@ctrpch ·
$0.08
Highly unlikely, but I guess anything is possible, pron and gambling are the tech pioneers 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
I guess I would say the likelihood of this particular scenario is largely irrelevant because the likelihood of Hive running out of RCs and blocks filling up is all but guaranteed.  This example is just one possible branch of that guaranteed inevitability. 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@gadrian ·
$6.40
To some degree this happens as we speak, except the porn part. Splinterlands is hyper-dominant. I saw an article, I think it was on dapp-radar, and Splinterlands accounted for almost 100% of gaming activity on Hive. Compared to other chains, that's ultra-domination in the gaming niche. Not sure what this represents at the entire chain activity level, but I believe it's crushing as well. And that after most of the gameplay activity has been taken off Hive and onto Splinterlands servers.

Splinterlands crew helped the chain however, instead of choking it. Others might do the opposite, intentional or not knowing any better.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@hivebuzz ·
Congratulations @edicted! You have completed the following achievement on the Hive blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s):

<table><tr><td><img src="https://images.hive.blog/60x70/http://hivebuzz.me/@edicted/payout.png?202111070057"></td><td>You received more than 66000 HP as payout for your posts and comments.<br>Your next payout target is 68000 HP.<br><sub>The unit is Hive Power equivalent because your rewards can be split into HP and HBD</sub></td></tr>
</table>

<sub>_You can view your badges on [your board](https://hivebuzz.me/@edicted) and compare yourself to others in the [Ranking](https://hivebuzz.me/ranking)_</sub>
<sub>_If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word_ `STOP`</sub>



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@jfang003 ·
$0.07
Well HIVE was already working on optimization on the chain before things became an issue but I do think there could be scaling problems in the future. If this happens does this mean the amount of RCs we get from our HP will drop? Like it adjusts itself and forces the users to stake more HP in order to use the network.

Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/@jfang003/re-edicted-2bjcux)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@novacadian ·
$0.21
Had a sabotage dapp idea just after the fork which incorporated both the bandwidth and porn aspects of your example. Decided in the end to not waist my time with it. The idea was if the bandwidth didn't kill 'em then illegal child porn would scare off most witnesses. Consider the idea Open Source if anyone cares to pick up the ball.

https://hive.blog/base64/@novacadian/base64-encryption-explained
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@edicted ·
$0.17
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vote details (6)
@sweecee ·
interested to destroy the chain, no cp however.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@owasco ·
$0.47
Isn't that true of all human activity? Someone or something could find a way to bend an entity to its will, and that entity's members are suddenly enslaved,  no longer free. It's a chance we take getting involved in almost anything. We can fool ourselves that Hive is immune, but of course it is not. All the behavior modification efforts have been evaded or used to advantage by someone. I'm all for no behavior modification efforts, especially downvoting. Just look at the mess that has made of freedom on this chain - Although I am no spammer, nor plagiarizer, and I know my work is of quality, I am hesitant to use both my downvote and my true voice regarding the covid con, for fear of downvote reprisal. As it is, I suspect curating accounts that used to support me have stopped doing so, perhaps because of comments like this one.
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vote details (6)
@edicted ·
Hive/crypto is a bit different.  
We already saw what happens when someone tries to control it.  
We actually profit from the attack. 
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vote details (1)
@owasco ·
$0.34
I did not profit from that attack (assuming you are referring to JS) as far as I can tell. I am still teensy, despite regular high quality posting for three years. How did *we* profit? I'm curious, not complaining.
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vote details (4)
@palasatenea ·
$0.08
Good analysis I fully agree with it, that's the advantage of a decentralized blockchain and also one of it's vectors of attack. 

I think that scaling issues need to be addressed the better we can, obviously we won't have an ideal solution that solves problems with nodes forever but we may find useful to be prevented of the blockchains weakest points. 		

Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/@palasatenea/re-edicted-5zmzbs)
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vote details (1)
@poshtoken ·
https://twitter.com/KennyCrane/status/1456790377302794243
<sub> The rewards earned on this comment will go directly to the person sharing the post on Twitter as long as they are registered with @poshtoken. Sign up at https://hiveposh.com.</sub>
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@preparedwombat ·
$0.07
Potentially, my wife will be able to retire early because I got involved in something that morphed into a porn site. *That* will be fun explaining to potential grandkids.
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
$0.12
##### I mean this is a very extreme example. 
At the core Hive is just a blockchain that yield farms bandwidth.  It can be used for anything. In the above example many whales would likely reject this direction and not delegate RCs to it even though it was the most profitable thing to do.  Then there is the possibility that competing apps pop up, and second-layer scaling solutions that make the entire problem transitory; eventually disappearing. 

Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/@edicted/re-preparedwombat-5t1ucb)
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vote details (4)
@stayoutoftherz ·
$0.07
If that DApp would consume 99% of capacity, then it would need to be that successful, that Hive went to lets say 10$. Well, I could live with that! Less posting, but more cashing out :)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
$0.06
This network has already gotten to $8 on nothing but speculation. 

#### I'm thinking more like $100-$1000
But yeah, same outcome.
Hard to complain about exponential gains. 
Even if the source is "unsavory". 
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stayoutoftherz ·
*Pecunia non olet*!
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@whatsup ·
$0.07
I think dpos is pretty fair, if you want to buy enough or build something good enough to run the chain, then you run the chain.  Those who don't like the changes can use the bug out bag of a fork, to move forward with their own project.

It just boils down to.. is what you are doing interesting enough that someone wants to put money in..  just like any other investment.  

Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/@whatsup/re-edicted-3foy6b)
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vote details (2)
@edicted ·
$0.08
Ultimately what I'm going for here is to make people realize that resources on blockchain networks are extremely limited and just because they are abundant now because there is little demand doesn't mean we won't have to make some pretty tough decisions and compromises in the future. 

Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/@edicted/re-whatsup-3vbjgi)
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vote details (2)
@yieldgrower ·
$0.08
this porn talk got me thinking of condoms, a sort of 2nd layer. Could condoms be the Layer 2 solution Hive needs in order to not to get HIV ?

Posted Using [LeoFinance <sup>Beta</sup>](https://leofinance.io/@yieldgrower/re-edicted-4rrnl5)
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vote details (1)
@iskafan ·
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

My heart 😆😆😆😆😆

This comment is super funny. Gosh.... Did you really have to burst my brains with this? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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vote details (1)