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Understanding Steem's Economic Flaw, Its Effects on the Network, and How to Fix It. by kevinwong

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· @kevinwong · (edited)
$473.06
Understanding Steem's Economic Flaw, Its Effects on the Network, and How to Fix It.
![pexels-photo-1133504.png](https://ipfs.busy.org/ipfs/QmYj64Dk97PFoYZf6Z6cXLCPEKsEDSgQLLXvadT2A55qqr)


I'm sure most users on this network have seen the same "vote-farming" and flagging dramas on Steem over and over again for the past year. It's not hard to see that a lot of users are doing this "vote-farming" thing, including the largest stakeholders on this platform. It just means the following under Steem's current economic model:-

- Self-voting
- Vote-selling
- Vote-exchanging

Please keep in mind that all of these are economically equivalent. For example, I can sell my votes by delegating to a bidbot, or I can also achieve the same effect by using all my votes on my posts only, or give someone $X amount of votes to receive the same amount back. All of these actions are the same: vote-farming. Vote-farming at 100% just means using 100% of our votes only on ourselves. This is indeed the best move under the current economic model, which is fundamentally flawed, and a lot of users including whales are actually participating in it.

Anyone not participating in this activity will just be losing out BIG TIME over the months and years. Like I've said in my previous post, someone with the same amount of Steem Power (SP) as me in the beginning of this year is now already ahead by 50,000 SP just selling their votes, while my votes mainly went to curation while taking my time to post. So I'm not holding back as much anymore, and I'm playing the vote-farming game on my alt-account @etherpunk to keep up until Steemit Inc and the top witnesses decide that some of us are right about our diagnosis and proposal to fix the misaligned economy. An economic system is flawed when it relies on the altruism and sacrifice of some users.

The path of profit maximization is again, vote-farming at 100%. This means maximum profit with the least effort. If you think there's a risk of people flagging, sure it may happen. But over time, you'll come to understand that Steem's current economic incentives just makes flagging arbitrary, futile, and ultimately meaningless. Nobody will even bother flagging anything else other than outright fraud, theft, or just plain retaliation. You can put up 10 random one-sentence original posts a day and just vote yourself up all the time while even buying some extra votes for the ROI too. It's very likely that nobody will stop you these days. Even if someone does, they'd most likely be unable to sustain their flagging on your account over a long period of time, unless you're just pure evil. Bidbots also generally do not have high standards. How else are they going to remain competitive?

It's now a move that I actually encourage everybody to do. Vote-farming at 100%. Instead of selling votes, you can also avoid the middleman and just vote on your post all the time for the same effect with more profits. Now you might think: alright, so everybody just minds their business and do their vote-farming at 100%. Under this scenario, what's the actual point of the ~8% annual inflation on Steem which just goes back to the pockets of the voters? This is why I'm saying that anti-abuse initiatives are contradictory under the current economic model. We're fighting against the tide of incentivized spam and abuse. My as well just set Steem at 1% annual inflation without reward pool just to keep the network running, all while people post whatever they want as usual without voting.

The point is: Steem's economic incentives should be aligned to encourage allocation of inflation to contributions that benefit the platform. While it's impossible to design anything that encourages all SP holders to allocate 100% of the inflation to other contributors other than themselves, we can go for about 50%.

This is the proposal. The best way out of this situation is likely to:-
- Increase curation rewards (50% is a good start)
- Move away from pure linear and into something like n^1.3
- Subsidize downvotes (cheaper downvotes, separated pool)

Doing so will make curation more likely as the economic incentives from doing so will have a better chance to outperform "vote-farming". This "hack" is really about giving people half of every votes given out under a curation game. Some of us have been saying this and repeating the same arguments for well over half a year, but not many seemed convinced at all. I hardly expect anyone who have only put in less than 20 minutes of thought is seeing the problem and solution clearly. But that's generally all the time most people have these days. Some of us have put in dozens if not hundreds of hours just refining our thoughts about this one single problem.

Some words about bidbots: the proposal above will simultaneously make the pricing for votes much less predictable than in a linear economy. It wonโ€™t kill the vote bidding business but just introduce some extra risk (which thereโ€™s essentially zero at the moment) which would end up being more like promotion with less ROI, so it wouldnโ€™t serve as a bypass to the act of holding SP for more earning power. Yes, there's a leak here that needs to be patched up. More profitable curation services should also emerge after the proposed changes.

The proposal has non-trivial costs, but as @trafalgar says it, nothing is as costly as a completely broken content quality indifferent economic system for social media outlets. Remember there's nothing wrong with profit maximizing behavior, one should expect it. The problem is when we don't align it with the behavior we want that's best for the entire system. To further repeat the point, I'll copy and paste @trafalgar's words here as I think he generally explains the situation much better than I do:-

> We currently have a system where stakeholders are incentivized to engage in content indifferent voting behavior (vote selling/self voting) to maximize returns. This completely defeats the protocolโ€™s ability to foster engaging platforms that revolve around content discovery.
>
> We need to move away from an economic system that makes it too costly to vote on work that stakeholders actually deem valuable if we want this place to survive.
>
> 1. Upping curation rewards is an obvious answer, but by itself, it is easily circumvented. Bid bots can just offer to share most of the curation rewards. Self voters can spam hundreds of posts and just upvote the ones that were least voted on by others after 15 minutes to avoid others 'stealing' their rewards.
>
> 2. Non linear should be seriously considered. Having reward amounts/SP that differ per post depending on its popularity is the core component of moving away from content indifferent voting behavior. Yes it has a cost, but the n^2 we were use to was far too steep. At n^1.3 (or any crude approximation of this), we should get most of the benefits at the lowest cost.
>
> 3. Downvotes incentives should also be encouraged. Of course greater downvote incentives has downsides, but in combination with 1 and 2 above it should allow for curation rewards to out compete mindless vote selling/self voting.
>
> Content indifferent behavior is the bane of this system. No social media platform can survive if it's unable to at least sort exposure and rewards by some subjective standard of quality.

Note that the 3 items in our proposal have been considered very carefully to cover all the angles so we can get out of the situation posed by Steem's current ***pure linear economy with low curation rewards and costly downvotes***. Just implementing one item is likely not enough. We need 3 of them. But of course, we only want to achieve an intended effect, so any better implementation suggestions are welcome.

Also, suggestions like passive staking for investor-types so they don't influence the content voting and ranking, etc are flawed. The same problems will still happen since we'd still be under a ***pure linear economy with low curation rewards and costly downvotes***. We'd just be reducing the reward pool here to be reserved for passive staking. The shrunken reward pool will then remain the be used in the same way, which is vote-farming, instead of content and curation.

It's my wish that more community members around here take notice about this problem and solution. If you're convinced, please make some noise about it. I've also written this about this a few times earlier this year. Some of us even wrote about it more than a year ago. The arguments and proposal remain to be in the same vein.

Please save Steem from all the unnecessary suffering and restore our sanity. We just need more users to stop running around headless, stop getting involved in senseless witchhunts under a flawed economic system, and instead seriously consider our specific problem statement and solution here. Some of us are really surprised that nobody at the top is onto this matter like an eagle over the past year.

It's a mistake to pin Steem's problems on culture and greed. Altruism and selfishness should be one and the same, which is what our proposal seeks to achieve in providing voters ample returns if they play the curation game instead of mindless vote-farming. The correct move then is in designing economic incentives to align profit maximization with activities that are good for the platform instead. It's as simple as that!

As always, thanks for reading.

Note: I want to make it clear there's nothing wrong with self-voting or selling your votes. It just has the potential to hurt the platform when there are no checks and balances in a flawed economy.

---

<sub>You can vote on your favorite witnesses here: https://steemit.com/~witnesses. I'm also running as one. If you trust in my choices for other witnesses, you can also set me as your voting proxy on that page.</sub>
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 936 others
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vote details (1000)
@aaronhawk ·
I always thought there's something wrong about it... But i just went with the platform's flow I guess.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@abit ·
$0.76
I wrote a [post](https://steemit.com/curation/@abit/design-the-rules-inside-a-linear-rewards-distribution-mechanism) 2 years ago and the conclusion is a linear reward distribution mechanism depends on downvoters to succeed if possible. IMHO efforts should be made towards finding and incentivizing good downvoters. What I have done and am still doing is in this direction, see @adm and the [old downvoting event](https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-whale-voting-experiment-explained-including-downvotes-from-abit). However, encouraging downvoting is hard and can easily be abused if designed poorly; it's also controversial and comes with costs since most people don't understand it, E.G. due to downvoting my witness has been voted down from top 20 long before. I had [another post](https://steemit.com/steem/@abit/an-analysis-on-curation-reward-distribution-algorithm) analyzed curation rewards distribution mechanism and perhaps helpful for you. Good luck.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kevinwong ·
What do you think about a 10% separate downvote pool @abit? Linear does give everyone the ability to immediately gain the maximum returns per SP exercised being entirely content indifferent, so it does seem like an unmanageable field for downvoting activities. And thanks for the links! Will check them out!
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@abit ·
Sorry, I don't know whether a downvote poll will work, or how it will work. Who can use the energy in the pool? How to prevent it from being abused?
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@sorin.cristescu ·
Downvoting is a really bad idea, it destroys social bonds. 

Just saying. "Punishing" bad content should be done on the social level like in the tight-knit human communities of earlier ages when people "behaved" because they didn't want to become pariahs in their communities. The threat of "not getting the community upvotes" anymore (because of bad behaviour) is much more effective and less damaging than outright downvoting
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@trafalgar ·
what's yoyow doing in terms of voting economics?
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@abit ·
The yoyow blockchain doesn't have voting right now. I don't know whether nor when it will be there. 3rd-party platforms running on yoyow e.g. biask.org have off-chain voting but I don't know the details.
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@actnearn ·
$0.09
The article identifies problems related with content discovery. But lately we see that Steem is not being used only for blogging but some other purposes as well for example actifit. In these cases the contents are more or less monotounous. 

And there will be other applications that may be focussing on other applications than blogging. 

So any proposed solution also has to balance in such a way that non-blogging apps are not discouraged.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Yes what youโ€™re saying is a fit for SMTs where linear can be used, Steem itself should move away from linear.
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@actnearn ·
In that case don't you think even current applications be converted to SMT, when SMTs are out,  each with their reward plan and use cases e.g. steemit-SMT, DtubeSMT, busySMT and backed by their SP holdings supported by BANCOR convertibility and liquidity. 

And steem based reward mechanism is completely abolished. Then this entire issue rest at peace.
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@adenijiadeshina ·
You are quite 100% right
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@adonisabril ·
Same fucking thing I've read on Steeemit for almost a year now. What's wrong with the platform and how do we fix it? Is somedody listening? How can John Doe with no monetary stake, make money on the platform? How can Jane Doe with 2 million SP get back more money from their investment? Age old questions that will always pit capitalist with the proletariat.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@etherpunk ·
Yes, this one is gaining momentum. We just need to tilt the economy just enough in favour of curation then weโ€™ll have the best of both worlds. Some are already working on it with the testnet and all, with Ned responding.
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@afrog · (edited)
In the first whitepaper of the Steem  the curation act has still been THE CENTRAL INSTANCE of the Steem blockchainโ€“mechanics. In the second whitepaper (March 2017) the word **โ€žcurationโ€œ** disappeared. As you remember, this happened after the regarding hardfork 18/19, when the curationโ€“act was not so important anymore and the old whitepaper was obsolet. Instead, selfvoting started to be possible and the greed was lit by votedealing. Since more than one year, the Steem is cheating itself now!

You should really think about, what this means, @kevinwong. The Steemit Inc. is not more interested in high end content because you need good, sophisticated curators for keeping up the quality. The whales where never ever willing, to be forced to curate. So the curation act could not stay to be the central part of the Steems mechanics anymore. We must not cry loud, for the deciding group to hear you talking about alternatives. They don't want to hear anyone, because they have their own agenda. Call it different plans, @kevinwong!

In my opinion we need an urgly unfriendly Hardfork. You know? A real hardfork, to shoot the Steemit. Inc. and their investors out of our blockchain. The Steemit Inc.  has to follow too much investors wishes. We have to eleminate these nonproductive clients from the process of deciding and influence. The presence of any big investor is a real piece of poison in every community. 
# Fuck the investors!
Not really, but show them the red card. We have to break their influence, before it is too late. To make vote-deals possible was a real case of sin.
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@almashridoy ·
Follow me
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@ammonite ·
$0.55
As a content creator I wouldn't mind increasing curation rewards especially if it created more engagement on posts. I think the network that grows around me through this will balance out any lose. Now it seems that most users have more incentive to just farm way their votes and this is reducing the desire for users to create the good content which I was hoping would be a cornerstone of Steem.
I'm afraid it will be difficult to get consensus on any of these changes seeing as many of the people who have the power to implement them are profiting from how things are. So why would they want to change things?
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@blocktrades ·
$0.05
Hopefully because they would also profit more with the changes. If content discovery worked better on Steem, it seems logical to assume that it would get more users and every Steem holder would benefit from an increase in the value of Steem.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@spectrumecons ·
$0.31
I think a lot of people just want to accumulate as much Steem as possible and hope that the price of Steem is going to soar in the next bull market. Devoting resources to content discovery should add value to the platform but it is very unclear how much value it will add. Content discovery requires a community effort. 

If we had 50% curation rewards would you consider not delegating to bots? Buying delegated SP from you at your current price would become very attractive.
๐Ÿ‘  
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@anothersteemi ·
> An economic system is flawed when it relies on the altruism and sacrifice of some users.

Yes , Yes , yes and    Yes !!
๐Ÿ‘  
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@anothersteemi ·
> Downvotes incentives should also be encouraged. Of course greater downvote incentives has downsides, but in combination with 1 and 2 above it should allow for curation rewards to out compete mindless vote selling/self voting.

Community based downvoting pool and discounted downvote SP spend.

2 thumbs up !!
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@anthonyadavisii ·
$0.36
> Subsidize downvotes (cheaper downvotes, separated pool)

This sounds somewhat similar to @transisto's suggestion way back. I've had it in mind to create an off chain solution using a community flag account to achieve this but, unfortunately, lack the time nor funding to really make it a thing any time soon.

I had unvoted you as witness when I noticed you had what I would call *apostacized* to vote farming / selling as I had formerly understood you were against such practices.

Reading your post, I understand why you did that and personally cannot fault you. I think you and I may think somewhat similarly albeit our stake being at different levels. I am but a minnow and have invested in Steem with apprehension understanding the economic flaws and how my ethics would place me at a disadvantage compared to my peers.

I still feel this way but because of my technical aptitude and still considering putting more money in to support the communities / projects that I am a part and banking on my skills and engagement to set me apart from the greedy.

Still yet, is there hope for my kind if the top 20 do not make a change? It's a difficult decision and the inflation is concerning when it is so easy to abuse the distribution of rewards towards activities that are essentially meaningless.

All things considered, I think you put forth some very compelling arguments for the witnesses to consider and thank you for that. I have decided it is best to add you back to my witness votes as a result for what it's worth.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kevinwong ·
$0.07
The current economy is directly incentivizing spam and abuse across the board. I think previously I was just seeing the result of the equation (as in economic incentives provided by the protocol) and thought the culture should change. Then later I was convinced by @trafalgar's argument that it's just a matter of aligning profit maximization to valuable activities that should be rewarded the highest. We can have very engaging and fruitful communities off the chain, but on chain the best way is to just vote-farm to keep up stakes with the rest, which is an unfortunate situation. If they only fix this a couple years from now, other communities that don't have Steem's best interest would outgrow users who did not participate in vote-farming by a long mile. Tough call to make really. Maybe the best question most builders on the platform should ask: why fight a misaligned economy out of your pocket?
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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@arcange ·
Congratulations @kevinwong!
Your post was mentioned in the [Steemit Hit Parade](https://steemit.com/hit-parade/@arcange/daily-hit-parade-20181015) in the following categories:

* Comments - Ranked 4 with 215 comments
* Pending payout - Ranked 1 with $ 502,87
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@arslan786 ·
$0.27
yeah you are right but I think when someone invested his money on steemit. He always will make such thing like self voting to at least get his ROI.
The greed is in human nature and we cannot remove it. I think there should be some ways so that everyone can earn rewards as well support the deserving people.
๐Ÿ‘  , , ,
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@holybranches ·
$0.07
It's not greed.  It's logic. 

It's an investment not charity.
๐Ÿ‘  
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@artopium · (edited)
$0.16
This "economy" is not flawed. It works exactly as it was designed to. I think the problem you're having is ideological rather that economic. If you read the white paper closely you'll realize that Steemit is 100% capitalistic. I mean 100%. That's more capitalism than any other so called capitalistic economy known in the world. In the U.S. economy we have a fair amount of socialism. Many services are subsidized by the government in order to equalize the playing field. Ned Scott had no such intentions for Steemit. It's 100% either you have money to invest or you don't. The more money you invest the more money you will make. The only *guarantee* that a potential investor has that they will get a decent ROI is self upvoting. so long as Ned Scott is driving the ideology behind the development of the Steem blockchain, this will remain the same. Self upvoting is at the heart of how Steemit works and it's not going away.

As an alternative to self upvoting, I created [SteemAX](https://steemax.trade) via @learnelectronics. I'd recommend taking a quick [look at my article](https://steemit.com/steemax/@learnelectronics/steemax-the-vote-4-vote-auto-exchange-app-a-hardfork-20-strategy-guide) in which I propose that disproportional vote exchanges are not only more profitable, they're more ethical. Creating the ability to *trade* votes is the same as creating an *open market*, a capitalistic concept, whereby the one and only good in this system, STEEM, can be traded at different *ratios*. However, what's really being traded isn't STEEM, but faith in each other's *quality*. A disproprtional exchange of upvotes not only creates better ROI than self upvoting for the one on the good side of the ratio, it creates a much better opportunity for a whale to get a larger share of the curation reward *as well* as a small return on their upvote value. However, this only works out for both parties if they post quality content others also want to upvote. Just getting into a single exchange requires the two parties interact, which is more than can be said for bid bots, self upvoting, vote farming, etc.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@holybranches · (edited)
Was it designed like that?

Yes.

Is that design flawed? 

Yes.

Or you mean to say a design can't be flawed?
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@artopium · (edited)
$0.08
I mean to say as far as @ned and Steemit Inc are concerned it's not flawed at all. As far as @kevinwong is concerned it is. It's a matter of perspective taken from one's ideology. This is not @kevinwong's *idea* of a "good" economy. But would @kevinwong then be sitting with the likes of Karl Marx,  Jean-Jacques Rousseau, or perhaps even Wilhelm Weitling?
๐Ÿ‘  
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@phoneinf ·
You are wrong if you think self voting gives highest ROI. Invest in trust and relationships gives the highest ROI in the long run.
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@artopium · (edited)
This is true. But that's not what I said. I said 

> The only guarantee that a potential investor has that they will get a decent ROI is self upvoting. 

The operative word here is not "highest", it's "guaranteed".
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@artopium ·
Also, please read my article, which I linked to above. I think I explain myself well.
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@as-abir ·
$0.27
Steam is a fast and fee-less digital token (named STEEM) that enables people to earn money, provide a scalable blockchain protocol 1 for universally accessible and unchanging contentBy using their brain (what can be called "proof of brain"), the two building blocks of this protocol, both blocken and token, depend on the reliability and long-term security and the integral part of each other's existence. steem has been successfully managed for one year, and it has now passed both the Bitcoin and Ithriyas to the number of transconsion. 3

Comparing with other blockchains, Steem is the first publicly accessible, in that case, with the databases-built incentivization system, as a content stored in plain text. It creates a public publishing platform, from which any internet application can collect and share information, which contributes to the most valuable content

Among the fields of crypto-currency, STEEM's unique features compare it to both "smart" and "social", such as Bitcoin and Ether. These two new token features originate from A pool of tokens dedicated to creating the first material and encouraging the carriage (called "the prize pool"). The second is a voting system that highlights the wisdom of the crowd to evaluate content prices and to distribute tokens. These two unique features are combined when called Proof-Off-Brain, which is a producer based on Proof-Off-Work 4, which emphasizes people's work in distributing tokens to public partners. STEEM in the evidence of the brain is constantly encouraging the members of the growing community to create social value by which their members build prizes as building materials.

As well as this development of Steve, the system provides improved advanced features such as Stony account recovery 5, escrow service, user-promoted content, a reputation system, as well as in addition to the progress of Blockken and Token Technology. This is when the second confirmation has been given to the users on all three transactions and zero transactions. This allows publishers and community builders to support the mission to bring smart and social currency across the internet
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@atempt ·
$0.65
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vote details (31)
@luckyvotes ·
re-atempt-re-kevinwong-understanding-steem-s-economic-flaw-its-effects-on-the-network-and-how-to-fix-it-20181016t144927754z-20181016t065514831z
You got a 44.26% upvote from @luckyvotes courtesy of @atempt!
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@sleeplesswhale ·
re-atempt-re-kevinwong-understanding-steem-s-economic-flaw-its-effects-on-the-network-and-how-to-fix-it-20181016t144927754z-20181021t021430551z
You got a 30.21% upvote from @sleeplesswhale courtesy of @stimialiti!
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@steemdiffuser ·
<p>This comment has received a 64.10 % upvote from @steemdiffuser thanks to: @stimialiti.</p>

<p>Bids above 0.05 SBD may get additional upvotes from our trail members.</p>

<p><a href="https://steemit.com/introduceyourself/@steemdiffuser/chello-steemit-friends-here-to-upvote-blaze-a-trail-and-crack-some-bot-like-jokes">Get Upvotes</a>, <a href="https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdv7s0V6f6iMC7lFsEkHUlJ4pErmSQzQXit-0FGaAx7FT-Pcg/viewform">Join Our Trail</a>, or <a href="https://goo.gl/forms/fdmsKYYUpFMY4OUw1">Delegate Some SP</a></p>
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@themarkymark ·
$0.09
flagged for bid bot abuse @steemflagrewards
๐Ÿ‘  
๐Ÿ‘Ž  , ,
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vote details (4)
@steemflagrewards ·
Steem Flag Rewards mention comment has been approved! Thank you for reporting this abuse, @themarkymark. 
* bid bot abuse
You bought votes to increase the rewards of your post above the value of its content. This post was submitted via our Discord Community channel. Check us out on the following link!
[SFR Discord](https://discord.gg/7pqKmg5)
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@whalecreator ·
re-atempt-re-kevinwong-understanding-steem-s-economic-flaw-its-effects-on-the-network-and-how-to-fix-it-20181016t144927754z-20181016t134731787z
You got a 36.52% upvote from @whalecreator courtesy of @stimialiti! Delegate your Steem Power to earn 100% payouts.
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@ats-david ·
$0.42
Well, good luck with this. Iโ€™ve been calling for two of the three things mentioned here since early 2017. But itโ€™s not part of STINCโ€™s grand plan (and we donโ€™t know what that is), so itโ€™s not likely to happen. All anyone wants to talk about is how SMTs will fix everything.

In my opinion, SMTs will only trash this place up at a faster pace. 

I also think that maybe social media interaction isnโ€™t something that needs to be a paid activity...since nearly everyone does it for free anyway. Itโ€™s a fun idea, but I donโ€™t believe that itโ€™s at all attractive for actual investors. We may need a better model - a better way to allocate the inflation tokens. And yes, maybe reducing the number of them again is a good idea as well, since thereโ€™s very little utility for SP...other than for โ€œcurationโ€ (allocating inflation tokens), witness voting (allocating inflation tokens), and then simply collecting inflation tokens.  

Allocation of inflated tokens isnโ€™t the end game here, is it?
๐Ÿ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@holybranches ·
>SMTs will fix everything.

Well, at least the bots are waiting to utilize them since the actual humans have left.
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@kevinwong ·
Yes it's not the end game, although I guess the protocol should at least be in favor of getting the inflation allocated better than what we can today as soon as possible..
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@smooth ·
$0.18
It's either that or turn (most of) it off and pivot to selling the blockchain on its non-reward merits. At the moment the reward system isn't much of a merit anyway.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@awesomianist ·
$0.28
I sometimes wonder how long will it take for me to consider jumping to another fork if someone repackaged STEEM and trim away all the shitty parts of it with a new genesis. And what are the reasons for me to continue using this platform "just because the going is still good now".

I highly value the community members and friends i found on this blockchain. And the distribution machanism of STEEM makes it a fertile ground for Dapps which are highly underrated when you compare to the "Windows 95-esque" dapps built on other more hyped-up  blockchains.

That said, however, with each passing day of seeing instances of vote farming, I die a little bit inside. It's hard seeing the democratically voted witness not acting in the best interest of the whole but themselves.

My account might have next to no stake, but you know I'm 100% with you on this. Simply because i don't see another way to make Steem truly the gateway blockchain where that i can redpill my aunt with.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@bennettitalia ·
@kevinwong, @trafalgar, @sorin.cristescu, @valued-customer, and... all of you really: how can I participate in this ongoing debate, as the above post is already nearly a month old? @igster, I like your idea of supporting only those witnesses who involve themselves in taking substantive action (of some kind - for me it doesn't have to be exactly as proposed here, as long as it's a genuine attempt to address the issues rather than just letting them lie), and would happily do the same. How do we organize? Is there a discord channel for this? Has there been movement of any kind in the past several weeks? 

As someone who is primarily a content creator and also a supporter of what I see as genuinely interesting content on this platform (and there is a lot of it), I have yet to really get involved in debates about the structure of the platform itself. But I very much enjoyed reading this discussion and can see the potential ramifications for me and my community. Like many on Steemit, I've struggled to earn rewards for content that I put a lot of time into. As grateful as I am for the amazing work that they do, @curie can't upvote me, or my peers, often enough to provide a real financial incentive to keep us on the platform. Neither can any of the other curation initiatives (and again, I feel so grateful for the excellent work that all of you are doing). For those of us who are still here, the process of creating and interacting with others must in some way be a reward in and of itself, as @valued-customer points out, otherwise we wouldn't be here. But it would be SO much more fun if the rewards system favored genuinely interesting content, because then I (and many of the Steemians I interact with) would potentially be able to support each other to earn levels of income here that might allow us to invest more time into our own work and into interacting with others. In other words: to invest more time into the platform. 

If content is really the currency of the Steem blockchain, then content should be rewarded. As it stands now, most of the rewards seem to go to investors of money, rather than investors of time, effort, and talent. This seems backwards to me.

So thank you so much for this discussion, and thank you @kevinwong for initiating it, it was a very interesting post to read, and the comments thread as well. 

My question is: how can I help?
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@berniesanders ·
Another post where not a single significant Steem holder provides any input except @smooth.  The Steem whales AND witnesses are some of the most pathetic in crypto.  Bunch of lazy, greedy fucks...
๐Ÿ‘  , , , ,
๐Ÿ‘Ž  , ,
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vote details (8)
@kevinwong ·
$0.22
I'm sure most of them are around, but just not using the platform. That's how misaligned the economy is..
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@bien ·
$1.08
indeed,most of big stakeholder of sp are self voting on their own post,but we can't blame them if they run and act like that on the steem blockchain.

Because they are investing and spend their own money to raise their  SP to do some propits of it's own post.

But still we are glad that some community giving a free curations specially to minnows and new comers with good article and writing.

like @curie , @acidyo specially you and to other steemians who support those good author..


Happy to know it also that you finally run your own thread and being one of my new witnesses @kevinwong

If you don't mind can i know you witnesses too! because i have special witness that i supported if you my 2 witness count's on you i'll take your proxy if not i give you a vote alone.. :))
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@bifilarcoil ·
there is another word for vote farming that most people know better

greed.

As greed seems to be the main thing that drives the whales it is clear that those whales are not very entheusiastic to put equality into the system.

I have seen people with great idea's how to make equality part of the system but  nobody evet listened to those idea's

So i hope your take on this will ever be implemented

How does 50% increase of curation rewards cure curation greed?  After all only people with curator friends (whales for instance) get the curation benefits

>Move away from pure linear and into something like n^1.3

how and why would that work for plankton?

>Subsidize downvotes (cheaper downvotes, separated pool)

Really, sponsor flagwars? What will that solve?

Sorry I do not see this work for plankton anytime soon.
Maybe for dolphins? 

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@blocktrades ·
$0.83
It's a reasonable set of rules to try, IMO (mostly, see my primary objection in last paragraph). 

I've been in favor of the 50% curation rewards all along, as mentioned in my long ago post on this very same issue.  

One thing to point out though is that curation rewards are already non-linear: early curators get more curation than later ones. It's only author rewards that are truly linear. Based on that, I'm not sure the n^1.3 is strictly necessary and I'm concerned that it might cause more harm than good by favoring votes by large stakeholders too much. The current form of non-linearity is more "stake" neutral as it's just based on upvoting the content before other people do.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@fyrstikken ·
I disagree. Why should I get 50% back of a vote I give to you or any others? 

It would only make whales like you and me very much richer.

Please Keep the CORE ECONOMY as it is.

@fyrstikken / @fyrst-witness
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@blocktrades ·
$0.26
The original rules were in fact 50/50 between curation and author rewards. The "75% author, 25% curator" change and the "author gets most of rewards during first 30 minutes" change led to many of the abusive self-voting of contentless posts and comments that we see today, IMO. Fortunately, the "author gets most of the rewards during the first 30 minutes" was overturned with HF20. But the 75/25 change still exists.

IMO, changing back to 50/50 will lead to improved curation results (better posts will rise to the top again) which I think will lead to increased Steem prices (which will benefit all long term participants in the Steem economy). If you want to understand my rationale, I went into much more detail a long time ago in this post (it's a long post and note that some of the full explanations are in the comments): 

https://steemit.com/steem/@blocktrades/voting-abuse-and-ineffective-curation-a-proposal-for-blockchain-level-change
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@trafalgar · (edited)
I gave a more detailed explanation of the benefits of slight superlinear in my reply to smooth above, but in a nutshell: forces all profitable voting behavior into the light (wack a mole with 1 hole), disincnetivize profit based spamming and micro voting, make it more difficult for bid bots to accurate place a price on votes and hence increase the cost of content indifferent behavior, helps make good curation more competitive in terms of returns etc. 

The superlinear proposed can be probably as low as n^1.2, and even have a linear tail, so in case the added downvote incentives (proposed 10% free downvotes) aren't sufficient in deterring all 'pile on' behavior, the damage will still be in check. 

I honestly believe the benefits we can enjoy most of the benefits of n^2 with only a fraction of the detriments in terms of inequality under n^~1.2.

I share your concern with the detriments of all of these measures. I understand that all else being equal, favoring larger stakeholder's vote is certainly an undesirable feature. Similarly, additional downvote incentives can potentially greatly increase the toxic behavior on here. However, bad it is to face an aggressive whale as a smaller stakeholder is going to be compounded when the gloves come off and he's given free downvote stakes. Also, lowering author incentives isn't ideal either and we wouldn't consider it if the current economy worked.

But look at what we're fighting: an economic system that rewards content indifferent voting behavior roughly 4x more than 'desirable' voting behavior. To win, we need to not just shrink that gap but allow content reflective voting to provide similar or even higher returns than vote selling/farming.

The idea is to come up with an alternative system that does just that while doing the least harm to the system in terms of added inequality, toxicity and lower proportion of author rewards. I think our proposal of n^1.3, 50% curation and 10% free additional downvotes is perhaps JUST enough to do that while introducing the least costs.

Some say just the latter 2 measures should be sufficient. I strongly believe we're suffering from n^2 PTSD. Saying the slight superlinear wouldn't work because n^2 failed is like saying that inflation doesn't work because 100% hyperinflation failed. We should consider the benefits/cost ratio of slight superlinear more carefully.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@blocktrades ·
$0.26
I'm not saying I'm completely opposed to "voting stake based slight superlinearity" as a step beyond the existing "temporal superlinearity" for curation rewards that I mentioned above, but I'd rather try smaller steps first, especially as I'm not certain that the existing superlinearity isn't sufficient. One annoyance for me is that I'm not even sure what the curve looks like for the temporal superlinearity, so it's hard to guess its impact. 

50% curation rewards + a change to put downvoting on an even footing with upvoting seems like a simple first try, although I'm not really a big fan of downvoting as I think it has emotional effects beyond the simple math itself.

Also, once any change is made, I think it will take a month or two for people to modify their behavior to the new economics. At this point, I doubt most users have even optimized their voting for HF20 effects yet. 

But despite that, I would certainly be happy to move now to a new version of the blockchain rules that supported some of these changes (50% curation being the one that seems "safest" to me).
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@blocktrades · (edited)
As a followup answer to my concern about superlinearity, please see my answer to @smooth in this thread.  Super-linearity inherently increases the power of voting groups like the one I describe there, making it more difficult for them to be combatted by "dissenting voters" with lesser stake if those dissenters don't similarly band together. With a linear curve, such groups don't have to unify their voting to fight such tactics.
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@freebornangel · (edited)
$0.02
We could expect bid bots to decline rewards, this still trends the post but leaves those of us that don't buy our trophies alone instead of subsidizing proof of wallet.
The bots get their curation rewards upfront in the form of payment for services.
This should lower the price of hitting trending, and clearly labels ads.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@smooth ·
> forces all profitable voting behavior into the light (wack a mole with 1 hole), disincnetivize profit based spamming and micro voting

I think we need a better assessment of how much of this is still going on. I've heard that it has been significantly reduced already with the changes in HF20 (which did indeed introduce a slight degree of non-linearity on the low end, in addition to the bandwidth->RC change; both probably reduced or eliminated spam profit on the low end).

> make it more difficult for bid bots to accurate place a price on votes and hence increase the cost of content indifferent behavior

This will already happen with the switch to 50% curation. Curation rewards are non-linear and I doubt it will be feasible for bid bots to continue to ignore that when curation is 50%.
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@bluengel ·
curation reward increasing is very good suggestion !
thanks :)

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@bobinson ·
$0.33
The downvote pool makes sense in the current scenario.  I have also seen the steemcommunity implementation. I didn't spend too much time looking into it as I am not clear about few things.

1. Communities : What happened to them ?
2. SMTs

Both communities and SMTs may change the behavior of the platform I am assuming that it will be even possible to implement features like down votes within the scope of "communities" & then use an SMT / Token as opposed to Steem itself. 

Let me deviate a little bit here. The way currently the platform works where Steemit, Inc stores everyone's content including those can cause DMCA either in their S3 image stores and even in witnesses in their servers will eventually have to change. Right now interfaces like Condensor is hiding objectionable content using rules in the front end. Eventually the storage outsourcing has to change. (This is not something I came up with after the layoffs etc.). I have written about it in the past  ( https://steemit.com/steemcleaners/@bobinson/scenario-dmca-takedown-of-steem-blockchain )

Coming back to the rules, I feel the specific rules should be imposed by either dApps, communities or SMTs and should act like a smart contract imposing those rules as opposed to the token and blockchain STEEM imposing the rules. When we say that vote farming is bad, we are defining the ethical and moral code. Yes, it also impacts the overall economy of the system. But, if its possible to create independent silos where vote farming is allowed, porn is allowed etc and limit those into specific scopes then the economic problem of Steem as such will vanish. Now, since imposing rules like "down_vote_pool" by a certain community/dApp/SMT will use their computational and storage power on the chain which is now defined by Resource Credits.  This further means, the more rules the "silos" apply, the more RCs they will need which will inturn increase the demand of Steem and pull up its value. 

Right now to be very honest I have no idea how the roadmap looks like. For example I know that we are moving to Hivemind but for me that also meant communities but not sure whether its happening or not.

So, for the sake this discussion, we can assume that there are no SMTs and no communities and no smart contract like feature to impose rules. In such  a scenario, the downvote pool does seem like a good idea.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong · (edited)
Thanks @bobinson. Please check out trafalgarโ€™s comments (especially the top comment here). Even with SMTs and communities, they will take a very long time to take effect, and thereโ€™ll still be core Steem distribution anyway, until they remove the rewards pool. All of these are a big IF. 

Just think of Steem as an MMORPG with SP as some buy-in weapon or levelling mechanism. Itโ€™ll have proper value if the game works. And it very likely can - just align the path of profit maximisation to that of the benefit of the platform. Now itโ€™s just not working. Iโ€™m pretty convinced by increasing curation rewards, moving away from linear, and having some โ€œfreeโ€ downvotes will solve the problem. As per the 3 items proposed. Just need some devs convinced about this as well. Itโ€™s the only thing I talk about the whole year and even flew halfway round the world to SF3 to remind people about it. Honestly we think itโ€™s just 1% of the effort required compared to SMTs for turning the tables of a completely dysfunctional content discovery and rewards platform.

Anyway, check out trafalgarโ€™s comments around here. Honestly I think heโ€™s one of the smartest and most rational investors around. 
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@brianphobos ·
I just don't agree on upping the curation to 50%.   It just leads to cookie cutter content mills.   Like we saw when STEEM first started people would just do the whole thing of paraphrasing Popular Science articles and just pump out stuff like a machine and then people would feel that they were a "safe bet"   

Savages like me that were all over the place talking about crypto one minute and talking about picking up chicks the next minute weren't a "safe bet"  so we couldn't really get any sustained support.   

Also changing the reward curve doesn't really solve anything for anyone without a relatively large amount of money to try to extract value out of this system.   Even now a person really has to come in with $100,000 and extract out as much value as fast as they can and then start dumping at prices above $3 or $4 before they get dumped on.   99% of the people are never going to be in a position to even put $5,000 into this.   

It is simply too risky for most of us to make bigger bets here in a lot of ways.   I actually feel safer putting money into something like Nano right now than something like STEEM because the economics and the outcome almost feels more predictable.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
We're proposing something along the lines of "A + B + C = D", where A, B, and C are the items in the proposal (50% curation, n^1.3, and 10% downvote pool), and D is the goal of a Steem economy that favors curation enough to beat vote-farming activities. More profitable curation services will emerge out of this and we'll likely have a better platform. 

A, B, and C must be considered as a whole and not in isolation in the way you're assessing this. We're not saying that changing A results in D, nor change in B results in D, nor change in C results in D. It's the combination of 3 low-cost moves for the biggest gain on the network.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@brokernaples ·
You made good money with this post
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@cachimery ·
Interesting information, thanks.
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@cato-the-elder ·
Something really does need to change to deal with the vote farming
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@con.template ·
Thank you. I am starting to get the bigger picture.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@creatr ·
>*"Some of us have been saying this and repeating the same arguments for well over half a year..."*

Far longer than that.

From the time curation rewards were cut, @mattclarke has been sounding this alarm. I've echoed the same perspective as well, but more from the very practical standpoint of on-boarding new users and attracting readers.

Steemit desperately needs a flood of *reader-curators.* We can't all be content creators. Creating decent, readable content is a skill honed over many years. Nobody wants to come here and see an endless parade of shit posts.

If we better incentivize thoughtful reading and curating, that alone will go a *long* ways towards stabilizing and improving the overall quality of Steemit.

As for your other two points, I'll have to think longer and deeper about them to truly understand the impact, but if as you say they support the first point, I am all for them.

Greater support, by delegation or other means, for the serious curation groups here, the ones like @curie, @thewritersblock, @welcomewagon, and other similar efforts to help reward true quality would also help.

I also see a serious problem with the HF20 changes that needs to be addressed, namely the reduction in the ability of newbies to comment. This will seriously reduce on-boarding... :(

Thanks, Kevin, for this seriously important article!

๐Ÿ˜„๐Ÿ˜‡๐Ÿ˜„
<a href="https://steemit.com/a/@creatr/b" target="_blank">
  <img src="https://steemitimages.com/DQmWvzuqZ51DoiSjXXf8bukb7JeeVV1eAJJhGBkDiYc8ajj/creatr_ap.gif" alt="@creatr" style="border:0;">
</a>
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@creatr ·
$0.38
<H3>Dear Steemit Influencer @kevinwong,</H3>

Pardon my intrusion, but I'm here for Steemit, *not* to ask for votes or a reSteem.

In the past few days, Steem has risen from 13th to ***third place*** in a vital contest. [**Netcoins**](http://contest.gonetcoins.com/) promises to promote the winning coin at **171,000 retail locations** in over **53 countries** across **six continents**, alongside the likes of **EOS** and **Bitcoin**.

Can you see that reaching *real consumers* could be as good or better for Steem than "preaching to the choir" at an existing exchange? We need to get out the vote.

But I'm a nobody. Your constituents need to hear this directly from ***YOU.*** Unless ***you*** move them to vote, [**PAC Coin**](https://paccoin.net/) or [**VERGE**](https://vergecurrency.com/) will win this $30K benfit.

There are some **250,000 active users** on Steemit. I can't reach them, but ***you*** can with a simple post. Please make it as fancy as you want, but at the very least, copy, paste, and ***post*** this short article:

<code>
\### Steem Needs \*Your\* Votes to WIN BIG!
\[\![]\(https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmWZjRSuDAB4xRTc7UDrHbTXEayMb6J78K8BcVcCWBJipn/Race01.jpg)](http://contest.gonetcoins.com/)
\## Dear followers,
if you value \*\*Steem\*\*, or if you appreciate me, please \*\*CLICK\*\* on:<BR>\<center>\<H1>\[\*\*\*Netcoins\* Coin Listing Contest\*\*](http://contest.gonetcoins.com/)\</H1>\</center><BR>and \*\*\*VOTE\*\*\* for \*\*Steem\*\* once a day.
\## Please do it now, and we'll \*all\* win!
Thanks.
</code>

<H3>You're a Steemit hero.</H3>

A Steemit "mover and shaker." Only Steemians like *you* can motivate enough users.

I've done the work for you. Feel free to use the above post code exactly as is, or modify and improve it as you please, but, ***Please*** make a post now, while you're thinking about it, for the sake of Steem.

If you need more details about this contest before you "pull the trigger," you can find them in my original post on the topic:

<center>*<H3>[**STEEM On Netcoins Contest: EVERYbody Wins!**](https://steemit.com/steem/@creatr/steem-on-netcoins-contest-everybody-wins-details-inside-fe3f4faa7062fest)</H3>*</center>

My humble thanks in advance.

\- **@creatr**

๐Ÿ˜„๐Ÿ˜‡๐Ÿ˜„
<a href="https://steemit.com/a/@creatr/b" target="_blank">
  <img src="https://steemitimages.com/DQmWvzuqZ51DoiSjXXf8bukb7JeeVV1eAJJhGBkDiYc8ajj/creatr_ap.gif" alt="@creatr" style="border:0;">
</a>
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
Hey thanks @creatr, looks like ned has done the deed! I'll include a link to your post in my next post :)
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@creatr ·
Thank you, Kevin, for your positive response to the situation! :D
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@dana-edwards ·
$0.27
At first I didn't agree with the idea of non-linear rewards because I had patience and hope that SMTs can save the day. The problem is SMTs will not arrive until 2019 and Steem economics right now are completely dysfunctional. It's very hard to support a platform which is neither sustainable nor rewarding high quality content. The Steem of 2017 with all it's flaws at least was rewarding high quality content in exchange for those flaws. Now the quality of content even if it's still being generated includes high quality it is a situation where the discovery process is pretty much non-existent.

The best content cannot be discovered or rewarded. In other words there is not much reward for blogging or generating content no matter how high quality. If the reward scaled up with the quality then it would favor the generation of higher quality content over time but unfortunately I'm not seeing this.

So I could just as well post cat pictures and upvote myself each day to get the same kind of reward I would get if I post a 5 page essay. This isn't to say that cat pictures can't or shouldn't be able to be rewarded or even be the top rewarded on the trending page but it would have to be a very special cat picture is my point (very popular).
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@snubbermike ·
It is impossible for the platform to reward high quality content.

First of all, you will never attract creators with any talent to Steem.  Best case scenario, is to provide a place that might reward a content creator as he is developing his skill set - and before he goes mainstream and moves on. 

Second, most users aren't very good at picking out high quality content.

Third, "high quality" is subjective - you will never get anything close to a consensus as to what constitutes high quality.  For example, younger audiences prefer political memes to political essays.  Which one gets the upvotes is more determined by demographics than content quality.  

Fourth, you will never get people to upvote a 'stranger' over upvoting her 'friend'.  This is a form of social media.  People will reward friends and family members first. (As they should).

 


Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@dana-edwards · (edited)
> First of all, you will never attract creators with any talent to Steem. Best case scenario, is to provide a place that might reward a content creator as he is developing his skill set - and before he goes mainstream and moves on.

This is not true historically. In 2017 there was some growth in the platform. Many "mainstream" creators joined Steem. This was during a time when the rewards were a lot higher so it was more attractive to join.

There is in my opinion no shortage of creative talent on Steem. Many people have accounts, many companies have accounts, but there is simply no incentive to produce high quality content. The time and effort to do so consistently is not even being rewarded with followers now because Steem isn't functioning well enough to grow.

So even if the reward pool were growing there still has to be enough new users to grow the follower base.

> Second, most users aren't very good at picking out high quality content.

I disagree. I think popularity is a valid metric in judging the quality of content. There is no expert who can tell the masses how they should think or what they should like. When Steem did work it at least rewarded popular content.

> Fourth, you will never get people to upvote a 'stranger' over upvoting her 'friend'. This is a form of social media. People will reward friends and family members first. (As they should).

I upvote strangers and my "friends". Voting power is renewable and is not some super scarce resource. So even if 80% of my votes were to go to myself and my "friends" the other 20% would go to complete strangers. This is assuming curators have friends as maybe some do and some don't.

I see nothing wrong with people voting for their friends. Relationship building is actually beneficial and is of high utility. If people form friendships rather than just be consumers it means they are interacting with Steem and the community on a greater level of commitment than to just post and upvote mechanically. These emotional ties actually are what give the community it's true wealth.

> For example, younger audiences prefer political memes to political essays. Which one gets the upvotes is more determined by demographics than content quality.

Study some of my blog posts. You will find that my view is that user satisfaction is the only means of calculating utility. To add value to the user is to make the user happy via the content or to satisfy a need of the user via the content. This is highlighted in my post on Utility Theory. 

Quoting myself:

> Steem needs to focus on maximizing utility
This is the key take away, that the problem right now with Steem is that it isn't effectively maximizing utility. In other words the value in terms of how much happiness we get per unit of value we put into it is unfavorable for all participants at this time. In particular, those who buy Steem Power support the ecosystem and the utility they get from the system isn't high enough.

[Steem must improve and the key metric for that improvement is "utility"](https://steemit.com/smt/@dana-edwards/steem-must-improve-and-the-key-metric-for-that-improvement-is-utility)

8 month old post. So the point of developers in my opinion is to serve the demographics you speak of. If they care about political memes then developers can build apps to help us create more effective political memes. Bloggers who write essays can adapt to write political memes to help with marketing their essays. In other words give people the content they want and offer any form of content people will accept. The creative adapts by creating what people like whilst also providing value in other ways such as by explaining complex topics or injecting humor into political topics.

Attack Steem if your intent is to make it better. Why attack the creatives who provide the content? They are not to blame for the economic incentive structure. You can't blame the student if the teacher designed a flawed curriculum.
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@danielwong · (edited)
$0.96
The past 2 weeks have been brutal for minnows. Our post payout are decreasing by the hour and by the end of 7 days it's probably gone down at least 15%.

Due to this factor, many have chosen to leave and not waste anymore time on STEEM. Out of 15 friends I've gotten on to STEEM, only 4 remain and only 2 of the 4 are active everyday posting contents and engaging with other people. 

So I think it is a huge problem from the way the way things are now and I don't think STEEM will achieve it's potential we all hope for. Even when SMT starts, I don't think it'll make much of a difference. More stuff on a broken system doesn't fix anything.

Flagging content is all we can do and as minnows, nobody actually wants to flag because of the fear that we'll get flag too. And whale flags are obviously way more powerful than minnows. I personally think flagging *can* solve this problem as only "content with effort" (like this post) will be valued. However seems like minnows doesn't see this as their problem. They see it as "the whales will sort it out" problem. I think everyone has to take ownership of this and be more responsible on this whole issue or else we're doomed. 

>Anyone not participating in this activity will just be losing out BIG TIME over the months and years. Like I've said in my previous post, someone with the same amount of Steem Power (SP) as me in the beginning of this year is now already ahead by 50,000 SP just selling their votes, while my votes mainly went to curation while taking my time to post. So I'm not holding back as much anymore, and I'm playing the vote-farming game on my alt-account @etherpunk to keep up until Steemit Inc and the top witnesses decide that some of us are right about our diagnosis and proposal to fix the misaligned economy. An economic system is flawed when it relies on the altruism and sacrifice of some users.

From since I've known you which is January, you have not done what most have done which is self-voting and that's like 10 months. You've waited long enough for something to happen and have been vocal about this issue. I'm with you in this even though I'm directly affected by vote farming.

I'm just praying this changes happens sooner rather than later. Bless ya man!
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kevinwong · (edited)
Yes, the flagging is not effective over the long-term mostly because of linear. When everyone can reach for the nearest switch for max profit on nothing to do with content, there'll be too many people doing it. If you're not joining, you're losing out over time. If you're flagging, you're losing out over time too. 

Edit: Flagging should be contingent though. It has some social cost attached to it. That's why it's better to have an aligned economy and just a small amount of free downvotes.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@danielwong ·
Yeah that way of flagging would make much more sense. If flagging is costing me my upvotes, why not just upvote someone else or myself? If this method of flagging was implemented, I think it would solve a lot of problems with this issue of rewards and upvotes.
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@daveonarrival ·
I'm glad there are people smart enough to see these problems and actually think up some practical solutions.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@davidke20 ·
$0.09
I'm 45 days short from my first post anniversary. I have been practicing none self upvote, thought that I'm a hero giving all my votes to everybody except myself, until HF20 that screwed everybody including your good self. Since then I decided, why would I bother if my steemauto are distributing vote when my voting power fall below threshold? On the first few days after HF20 I get literally nothing from my posts. People are begging for votes whilst quietly accumulating their voting mana that point of time. And then I found out that time voting mana dropped so much slower then RC, I placed steemvoter to full upvote all my comments and my posts. I've got a very happy few days until they change it back to VP and once again I screwed myself down to almost 0%VP when I forgot to turn off my steemvoter to vote all my comments.

Now, I still have my 300 following list to upvote in my steemauto. But I do remember to have my steemvoter to self vote my own article 15 minutes after published.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
It wasn't HF20 that changed the economic incentives we experience today, it was middle of last year's HF.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@davidke20 ·
$0.25
Just to prove a point. I upvoted you, please upvote me back ๐Ÿ˜‚

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kevinwong ·
$0.24
lol. hope they fix this thing
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@markangeltrueman ·
$0.24
Looks like an almost working V4V implementation to me :D
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@dobartim ·
Excellent point of view. I agree 100%
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vote details (1)
@dominion01 ·
$0.02
Yes!  Increasing curation rewards is key.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@donkeypong · (edited)
$0.84
It's a solid proposal and worth a big vote. I don't necessarily agree with all parts of it, but I like your contribution to the discussion. 

First, I think passive investors should be paid a return to keep them from mucking with the content through either posting or voting. If the rewards must go through the system, then higher curation rewards certainly would be preferable to expecting people to post junk for reward votes. But it still perverts things somewhat. I'd support it if there's no realistic option to simply pay passive investors some return, but I'd much rather pay them to stay on the sidelines and not feel like they need to post or vote on junk. 

As for the downvotes, I think it could be abused unless the rep score accounts for voting behavior somehow. I'm not against your suggestion, but I'd have to think about it more, and I suspect it would need another component to be successful. 

As for superlinear rewards, I just don't see it. I still think that would be a mistake because we've been there and seen that things work better with linear. Superlinear is a faster route to more concentration of wealth and power, which is the wrong direction. I think believing that superlinear would work also assumes that larger SP holders would vote for the best content, which is not necessarily the case, though I do appreciate that you are trying to find the right economic balance with curation rewards also. I'm probably one of the people who would benefit from superlinear, but I don't know that it's in the platform's best interest. 

Would it be possible to fork some testnet where various ideas like these could be tested?
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vote details (5)
@jaki01 ·
> Superlinear is a faster route to more concentration of wealth and power, which is the wrong direction.

I would prefer a curve which <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/conciliation-of-the-reward-curves-die-versoehnung-der-reward-kurven">started as n^2 / exponential (thus flat), and then later changed into linear which would work against self-voting as well as excessive rewards</a>.

@clayop had a <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@clayop/making-steemit-better-a-proposal-to-flatten-the-rewards-curve">similar idea</a>.
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@kevinwong ·
Yes Utopian is working to setup a definitive place to study the proposal and read opinions about it. @reggaemuffin seems to be handling a testnet so itโ€™s likely we can test these things.

> First, I think passive investors should be paid a return to keep them from mucking with the content through either posting or voting. If the rewards must go through the system, then higher curation rewards certainly would be preferable to expecting people to post junk for reward votes. But it still perverts things somewhat. I'd support it if there's no realistic option to simply pay passive investors some return, but I'd much rather pay them to stay on the sidelines and not feel like they need to post or vote on junk.

The same problem is going to persist unfortunately, as weโ€™re only effectively shrinking the rewards pool for the passive staking allocation, while the economic incentives for the rest of the users remain the same. 

> As for superlinear rewards, I just don't see it. I still think that would be a mistake because we've been there and seen that things work better with linear. Superlinear is a faster route to more concentration of wealth and power, which is the wrong direction. I think believing that superlinear would work also assumes that larger SP holders would vote for the best content, which is not necessarily the case, though I do appreciate that you are trying to find the right economic balance with curation rewards also. I'm probably one of the people who would benefit from superlinear, but I don't know that it's in the platform's best interest.

Previously we were at superlinear (n^2). Today we are at linear (n). The proposal suggests somewhere in between (n^1.3) which should be more balanced while making it less predictable for people to put a price on votes, providing variance/contrast, and abuses would only be possible by piling up votes for a more substantial payout so its more manageable for the community.

> As for the downvotes, I think it could be abused unless the rep score accounts for voting behavior somehow. I'm not against your suggestion, but I'd have to think about it more, and I suspect it would need another component to be successful.

Cheaper downvotes is more for contingency as most wouldnโ€™t practice it anyway. It just makes it easier to take down abuses or overvalued posts from any gaming. All said, thereโ€™s some social cost to cheaper downvotes, but I think the benefits outweigh the downsides of this proposal.


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@nonameslefttouse ·
$0.26
I've found a place for passive investors that doesn't involve messing with the natural flow of content production or consumption.  I explain in detail within this post:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@nonameslefttouse/turning-rage-into-the-soothing-steem-now-blowing-out-my-butt-as-i-mince-my-words-for-you-the-reader-of-this
 the common struggle someone like me faces as a content producer here after all these years and I offer a solution that could easily fit in with what @kevinwong talks about here.  The post leads to other posts with more information.  The comment sections are jammed with even more.  People are scratching their heads wondering how to bring new money into the platform and I'm clearly stating the fact this is the entertainment industry and a functional promotional system using ads is one way to bring this new money in.  I've explained how, but I need more people to see it.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@dreamants ·
$0.05
Yeh I have to agree with most of these points. This system is doomed to wither and can not be sustained for a long period of time without the constant influx of new capital and users.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@snubbermike ·
There will be no influx of new capital if people can't easily overcome 8% inflation.

Without those who are willing to buy Steem as an investment, you can reward great content all you want - but the rewards will not be worth anything..


Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@edicted ·
$0.17
I highly disagree with a separate pool for downvoting.  You can't expect the platform to get better by cutting decentralization in half and giving whales twice as much power. 

I also suggested non-linear rewards the second I touched down on this platform 10 months ago.  I had no idea it had already been attempted and abandoned. 

At one point I also came to the conclusion that 50% curation was a good idea.  Now I realize that the curation lottery is an easily gamed system as well.  Anything with set rules will easily be gamed.

The system we have now works perfectly.  It is the simplest most straightforward option as the foundation of the platform.  Introducing these new "solutions" to the problem will only allow the system to be gamed even more by those who understand the complexities of it.  As you already know, whales are highly motivated to do just that. 

The solution isn't in changing the foundation of the Steem blockchain, it's building on top of the anarchy to create order.   

The single most important thing that this blockchain needs is a decentralized reputation system.  We need a way to organize big groups of people that all share similar crypto ideology.  We need to be able to measure who is trustworthy and who is not.  This is all that matters: trust.  

None of the solutions you've presented will force anyone on the blockchain to be more trustworthy.  Unless we can come up with a rule that's as solid as POW or POS or DPOS it isn't really worth hard-coding into the foundation.  :(
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong · (edited)
$0.03
Our proposal atm is a 10% separate downvote pool, a contingent to the other two measures which is 50% curation, and n^1.3 reward curve. Gamed or not, n^1.3 forces congregation of posts with substantial payouts and makes pricing of votes less predictable than linear. It's a more manageable playing field for any regulation to take place. Nothing can be worst than what we have now as content-indifferent behavior gets rewarded the highest. In the end, it really depends if you agree on the problem statement and solution.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@edicted ·
https://steemit.com/steem/@edicted/steem-problems-can-t-be-fixed-with-hard-forks

Now is not the time to be changing the core dynamics for how the platform operates.  Complicating the rules even further will simply reward the users who are best at gaming the new rules.  It most certainly will be worse.  It will be even more centralized.

You base everything on the premise that self-upvoting is the most profitable action.  This is false.  Working together to give the platform more value is the most profitable action.  These solutions will not promote synergy.  It will be more of the same.

I would implore you to read that post where I directly respond to your proposal.  Occam's Razor  is our friend.  Adding more variables is counter productive.
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@elderpaulo76 ·
This is a very helpful and informative post! Great job here. I highly agree with increasing curation rewards!
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@elear ·
$3.93
First of all I want to say that I am very glad for the work being done by @kevinwong and @trafalgar to enable participation on the current Steem economics, while also pushing solutions forward. I very well agree with most of the points brought up here. The increase in curation rewards and downvotes incentives are particularly significant, as we tried several attempts to overcome those in our product development. The lack of proper curation incentives drove us to tricky implementations which we had to tweak continuously in the way we reward our curators/moderators. The lack of downvotes incentives made us think of complete different ways to sort our contents, compared to what the blockchain can offer. Built-in solutions, like the ones aligned here, are ideal and could lower the hassle significantly. 

I am collecting inputs, like this one, trying to have an overview of the hottest community requirements. Utopian supports the maintenance of Steem forks (see @reggaemuffin ' s [one](https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@reggaemuffin/introducing-the-steemcommunity-organization)) which enable proposals and testing of disruptive changes. It makes sense to bring such inputs in the right places (github issues) and incentivise the development, via community participation.
๐Ÿ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@espoem ·
>The lack of proper curation incentives drove us to tricky implementations which we had to tweak continuously in the way we reward our curators/moderators.

Can you elaborate on this? Do you mean to say that if curation rewards were higher, you would spent less on incentives for your curators?

>The lack of downvotes incentives made us think of complete different ways to sort our contents, compared to what the blockchain can offer.

As you clearly agree with the points in the post, could you give more details on your comment? I feel that your words are too broad and don't know what to take from them.
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@kevinwong ·
Thanks a lot for taking this up @elear. Much appreciated. It would seem like a great time to be setting up extraneous protocols to get important discussions going on with good info, and tying it along with development / testnet
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@empress-eremmy ·
$0.08
I really support the Curation rewards set at 50% and more incentives encouraging downvoting. This place won't grow merely relying on the goodness of peoples hearts for action
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@retiredinsamar ·
Downvoting is already an abusive problem... why make it worse?
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@smooth · (edited)
$0.04
Because downvoting is irritating but the problems discussed in this post are serious enough to affect the whole economy, and even threaten the survival of the platform. Downvoting has never done that and it is very unlikely it would ever do that (essentially impossible). 

Given the choice between irritating and failure, I'll take irritating. Making the wrong choice on this is one the biggest mistakes that has ever been made here.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@ervin-lemark ·
I am actually doing this 50 / 50 approach from October 1st onwards. I try to distribute 1000 points manually each day with 7 upvotes in 5 rounds:
- one full self vote,
- one 50% upvote
- five 10% upvotes

It's quite a bit of work and I donโ€™t reach 35 upvotes every day.

Yet, my self upvote ratio is at 49.15% right now with 211 votes for 104 accounts in the last week. Decent, I would say. 

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
๐Ÿ‘  
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@ervin-lemark ·
I am actually doing this 50 / 50 approach from October 1st onwards. I try to distribute 1000 points manually each day with 7 upvotes in 5 rounds:
- one full self vote,
- one 50% upvote
- five 10% upvotes

It's quite a bit of work and I donโ€™t reach 35 upvotes every day.

Yet, my self upvote ratio is at 49.15% right now with 211 votes for 104 accounts in the last week. Decent, I would say. 

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@espoem ·
$0.07
As hard as I try I don't understand the need to double the curation rewards and many people to be so in favour of that idea.
๐Ÿ‘  
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@spectrumecons ·
The aim is to provide a reasonable alternative to delegating SP to bots. At the moment returns from delegating to bots is at least 3 times that of manually curating and requires no effort. Doubling curation rewards will close that gap. The increase in manual curation should offset the loss to content creators from the higher curation rewards.
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@espoem ·
If the issue is that bots found their place on the blockchain and are used to boost the content for visibility or profit, people could use the downvotes. That is one of the other proposals, which allows people to "control" more if they agree with the rewards and visibility of that content.

Furthermore, what makes it different that the number of bots may decrease, but instead automated curation guilds will pop up? You are talking about effort, but we can see that people set their votes to follow trusted accounts. Do you think that hundreds of votes that came with one person is something good? There is no interaction, no comments.
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@everydayobserver ·
I'm new at steemit and also in blockachain but you explain very well
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@experiment ·
Hi @kevinwong  I'm a bot, and wanted you to know that I've upvoted and re-steemed your post to help you with your promotion efforts!  -exp
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@programmingvalue ·
$0.10
Ironic
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@experiment ·
Good point!
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@felipejoys ·
$0.03
> The path of profit maximization is again, vote-farming at 100%. 

That path is meh. There are much more efficient alternatives, although they require a lot of steem knowledge and take a lot of initial preparation.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@d-pend · (edited)
>There are much more efficient alternatives

Care to elaborate?
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@holybranches ·
What are you talking about?
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@spectrumecons ·
$0.04
Are you referring to creating a bid-bot? Bid-bot owners can make far more than what they would earn by merely self-voting with their own SP, if they can obtain a sufficient amount of delegated SP. Running a bid-bot also requires more effort than self-voting 3 word comments.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@fknmayhem · (edited)
Honestly,

> Increase curation rewards (50% is a good start)
> Move away from pure linear and into something like n^1.3

This only further incentivized short term thinking and vultures invest in Steem because of the ridiculous, and thus unsustainable, APR it brings. 

These arenโ€™t the investors you want. Especially not if youโ€™re going to combine both.

What Steem needs is longterm thinking and the Top 20 and Steemit Inc need to have some balls and come with an API, and dual citizenship, for automated votes for money (read: create ads in the feed, complete with an ads marketplace). Then remove those second class accounts from the pool. Next we tackle the next level (n^1.28?).

Only long term thinking, in which we accept that investing doesnโ€™t require a return within first 3-5 years, will solve that problem. But those people are still rare in the crypto scene.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@fr3eze ·
At the pace of STINC improving the current mechanism and seeing the huge SMT implementation ahead, what you were suggesting might take **years** if not decades to realize. 
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@frankbacon ·
Highly rEsteemed!
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@freefun ·
thanks good advice
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@grintsch ·
Wow, now that is a trail of comments and input on the topic. I must confess I haven't read all of the comments, but have been trying to distill the most important aspects.

Thanks a lot to @kevinwong and @trafalgar for the proposals. There's obviously a lot that can be improved. However, here are some thoughts:

If nobody cares about the quality of the content on the platform and everybody just farms votes 100%, then inherently nobody from the outside would be interested to join that game big time unless they think a lot of people will come after them. The value of users' stakes as well the results depends on new people coming in and buying Steem. The growth economically needs to be bigger than the inflation rate to keep price going up, so if nobody works on growing the platform but just farms votes, everybody's stake will be diluted. Now, as it also grows at the same rate, you could argue they are protected from dilution, but that won't be the case as *some* people will want to (or have to) cash out.

This means that in the long run most people will lose if everybody farms 100%. It's kind of like a pyramid scheme.

Therefore - and I'm talking the really long game - it's in everyone's best interest to get the platform to grow. The effect of an increased Steem price will be much bigger over a bunch of years than the potential 8% ROI (Steem denominated) you can make farming. Look at what your performance is on $ over the last 12 months 100% farming.

That said, I don't want to disagree with you at all. I just wonder whether any of the changes have been simulated. The overall effect are difficult to predict:
- will there be different types of vote bots that give back more curation rewards to their buyers?
- will these bots collude to take over most of the pool by exploiting the non-linear nature of rewards?
- would it matter to these bots and their buyers what kind of content they're voting for?
- will giving away 50% of the rewards to curators hurt the motivation of content creators? Shouldn't it be them to get the actual big piece of the pie because they are the ones providing the the actual value?

Any curation mechanisms I've seen so far (also in TCRs) have been flawed due to their tendency to centralize stake. This is a very difficult problem to chew on, and I fear that non-linear voting, non-linear rewards, higher curation rewards, etc. will only push the problem sideways (or make it even worse!), rather than solving it.

I'd be super happy in engaging in more interactive discussions on that. Is there a platform for that (Discord?) than comments? :-)

Anyway, thanks a lot again for putting all the efforts into improving the platform that we use. Keep it up!

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
๐Ÿ‘  
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@holybranches ·
The TLDR is increasing curation to 50% will reduce the wide gap between selling votes and manually curating and can convince whales to undelegate from bots since the difference won't be much.
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@hijosdelhombre ·
I agree with almost everything you said, but **its important to improve filter mechanisms to have better fresh feed content**, but this is not something about the Steem's current economic model, it's something about how content is displayed.  

I will also like to add to youe proposal more incentives for steemians:

### If you vote content from a non top poster with less than 30 votes you could earn more Steem/SBD than voting always the same users, not as a penalty, but as an incentive, this will encourage people to participate too.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@hiroyamagishi ·
Good point of view as always @kevinwong
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@iguazi123 ·
awesome! For newcomers, this is indeed a big problem. They will be obscured for a long time under the current mechanism. Even if they contribute good content, they will not get rewards. What I want to say is to let the creative focus on the creation, so that the discovery of good content can find good content. Your proposal is the way to solve this problem. I have a small proposal here, I hope to consider weight each person's tag. If the user frequently posts a trip or likes a travel post, then its travel tag weight should be higher, then He votes on travel posts and the post should get more rewards.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@intrepidphotos ·
$0.07
Great thought provoking review.  I have seen however people say non linear rewards will damage DApps which rely on the liner reward system.  Would love to hear your thoughts on this?  
๐Ÿ‘  
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@kevinwong ·
These Dapps are perfect use case with SMTs which can be linear. I think Steem's core distro should avoid linear.
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@ivanpirata ·
Superb!
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@jaki01 ·
> Move away from pure linear and into something like n^1.3

I would prefer a curve which <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/conciliation-of-the-reward-curves-die-versoehnung-der-reward-kurven">started as n^2 / exponential (thus flat), and then later changed into linear which would work against self-voting as well as excessive rewards</a>.

@clayop had a <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@clayop/making-steemit-better-a-proposal-to-flatten-the-rewards-curve">similar idea</a>.

Other ideas are:

- ... implementing <a href="https://steemit.com/steemit/@jaki01/ideas-for-more-justice-on-steemit-ideen-fuer-mehr-gerechtigkeit-auf-steemit">diminishing returns</a> when upvoting the same accounts (including own ones) again and again.

- ... reintroducing the restriction to four (or less) full paid posts per day (from some hard forks ago) which was very reasonable.

- ... considering to let ones <a href="https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@scipio/how-to-solve-spam-on-steem-introducing-userauthority">UserAuthority score (from @scipio)</a> have an impact on the rewards of ones posts.
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@jarvie ·
You list 3 points mostly in the blockchain economics. 
What extent do you think the interfaces can help with some of this stuff?
We're looking for some good solutions over on our interface @steempeak
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@jeezzle ·
I remember almost the exact day when everyone decided that we were going to go from

"hey don't self vote"

to

"everybody's doing it so why can't we?"

 I'd be glad to see a day when things were a little bit more society focused instead of individual focused. Of course that's easy for me to say since I actually have a fair amount of stake. I know a minnow is doing all he can to get as much as he can,  and I certainly can't blame him for it.
๐Ÿ‘  
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@johnspalding ·
Thanks for posting this. You have received a <b>*Preemptive Strike*</b> by one of our simulcasters, @johnspalding, from:  

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@joythewanderer · (edited)
$8.32
When curation (which should be a natural thing to do) becomes a sacrifice for bigger stakeholders, itโ€™s about time to change the current economics. 

Otherwise Steem will look more and more scammy, by making whatever shitpost and using bidbots to decide the payout. It already failed as a content discovery website at the moment. 

Like you mentioned, linear algorithm made bidbots business much easier for prizing and more profitable for bidbots owners. Indeed, everyone can โ€œpromoโ€, this bidbot business model doesnโ€™t make much sense to me.

I canโ€™t understand why SteemInc supports bidbots so much, even deletaing to the bidbots. 

They donโ€™t see the problem or they just donโ€™t care?
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (9)
@awesomianist ·
$0.04
It has gone to a point where people actually have the galls to complain about "not getting good ROI on bidbots". What a travesty.

This needs to change and soon. Otherwise, user attrition will leave Steem only with the ones who already had stake.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
$0.13
Agreed, but I'm not sure if Steemit Inc is delegating to bidbots. I don't think so. But again it's the smartest move so they'll eventually do it as well even if the situation is created by their change in Steem's econs in the first place.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@demotruk · (edited)
$0.26
It's not the smartest move when you're the largest stakeholder. You or I as smaller stakeholders can grow our holdings by undermining the network at the expense of the larger stakeholders, and get a higher dollar value. The *only* way for the largest stakeholders to gain is to increase the value of the network. There's no getting around that, there's no way self voting becomes rational when you've got a major fraction of the total stake.

Although, in practice, even the smaller stakeholders have virtually all lost $ value in recent months, even with 100% self voting.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@edje ·
Who owns the 'alpha' account?

The alpha account is receiving (daily) funds from two of the largest bidbots on our blockchain. Very large sums (300k+ Steem per transaction) are received regularly from 'steemit2' account totalling more than 2M Steem. The 'steemit2' account in its turn gets really large sums from 'steemit' account. Just check their wallets.
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@joythewanderer ·
$0.09
My apologies to SteemInc if they didnโ€™t lol. At least they somewhat support the business already. 

Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://steemit.com/@partiko-ios)
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kingkrypto ·
Pretty much every top post seems to be using voting bots at the moment. If you don't use them then you don't stand a chance - especially as a new user on the network. This is a broken system
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@joythewanderer · (edited)
Yea, vote buying/exchange and promo is normal on traditional social media but Steem is not there yet. Right now if encouraging pure bidbot promo, it will only cause more spams. 

Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://steemit.com/@partiko-ios)
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@trafalgar ·
$0.24
I agree with your points, aside from Steemit delegating to bots, I don't think they do

Unfortunately there are relatively few of us who see the problem this way. Any solution will have its trade offs, the idea is to minimize the costs while having an economic system that's sufficient to topple the current content indifferent form of profit maximization. That is to say, we need a new system that rewards good curation better than vote selling/self voting while still leaving enough for content creators and not shafting minnows too hard.

I truly believe a combination of slight superlinear, added downvote incentives and higher curation will do just that. No more than necessary in terms of extent.
๐Ÿ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@joythewanderer ·
Delegation was my misunderstanding. 
One thing I donโ€™t get is, since linear doesnโ€™t work (everyone agrees right? Or not?), how difficult it is to give another option a try.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@jpphotography · (edited)
$0.74
Interesting thoughts, but I am sceptical:
**1. Increasing curation rewards**
Assuming that your measures would work and it would be easy to find good content on trending since it gets rewarded highly, higher curation rewards would disincentivize voting on this content in most cases. If I see a great post on trending or hot, voting on it will get me less curation rewards than voting on a mediocre post that has next to no rewards yet but will have some rewards since the author has loyal followers. Non-linear curation rewards would improve this situation, but not change it. Under the current system, this is the reason why I have set up a large part of my votes as autovoting for my favourite authors - voting at 13 minutes gets me much higher curation rewards than selectively voting the best content in my feed once a day would.
**2. A non-linear voting system**
Non linear rewards could be beneficial, but assuming there would still be vote-sellers, non-linear rewards would make buying a lot of votes more profitable - even more, curationreaper bots would vote before the vote-sellers do to increase their curation rewards
**3. Downvote Pool**
Voting power for flags coming out of the upvote pool is only one reason why there is so little flagging. The more important part is the fear of flagwars - I would love to flag many vote-farmers, but I know that this would likely result in them flagging me back. An anonymous downvote pool could be the solution there - if the whale I flagged can't see that it was me who flagged him, he can't flag me back.

Having been on the platform for nearly a year, I am at a point where I am sceptical if the rewards system can be fixed at all without leaving loopholes for farming rewards by abusing the system. The only solution I can see is that at one point delegating SP would become more profitable than voting (be it self-voting or reaping curation rewards) since so many dApps would want to rent SP to reward their users. For them, distributing their upvotes to the best content would be in their best interest for growing their platform.
๐Ÿ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@delusionalmadman ·
$0.03
"An anonymous downvote pool could be the solution there - if the whale I flagged can't see that it was me who flagged him, he can't flag me back."

That is a double edge sword, and that 2nd edge would have the opposite effect that you are hoping for.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@jpphotography ·
I would hope for something like this to encourage flagging while preventing flagwars at the same time. Flagging will always be controversial, but taking Reddit as an example, while it can have negative results in some cases where flagging is abused to punish individuals or views, it mostly helps to prevent low-quality posts from reaching high visibility
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@snubbermike ·
The ability to downvote away the rewards of others is already one of the worst features here - if you were to allow it anonymously, (and cheaply), you would kill the community.
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@smooth · (edited)
> easy to find good content on trending since it gets rewarded highly, higher curation rewards would disincentivize voting on this content in most cases

Curation rewards are NOT supposed to encourage voting on content that is already trending. It is supposed to encourage finding unvoted (or lightly voted) content that is undiscovered. Yes, in some cases this can be done now with a favorite author list but as more people compete for curation rewards (which isn't very much now because so much of the voting power doesn't bother), that simple strategy will no longer work (others will jump in ahead of you at 12 minutes and 'steal' your rewards, or even better do so only on the content from your favorite authors which is expected to do the best, which ends up 'stealing' even more of your rewards). Curators will have to work harder, become more clever, and dig deeper to discover good content.

> Voting power for flags coming out of the upvote pool is only one reason why there is so little flagging

Very true. Addressing that one reason would still help.
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@jpphotography · (edited)
$0.03
> Curators will have to work harder, become more clever, and dig deeper to discover good content.

Currently, the accounts that earn the most curation rewards are not human curators - not even @curie top curators who spend hours a day scouting for the best under-rewarded posts - but curationreaper bots. Anyone with some basic knowledge of Python or JS can write such a bot and specify custom rules - for example, a bot could vote for my favourite authors at 13 minutes but only, if the post reward is below 0.04$ or vote comments by Utopian or Steemhunt curators before the big upvote hits or vote for posts in quality tags such as #travelfeed, #utopian-io or #ocd-resteem if they have low rewards, a minimum author reputation of 40 and a minimum of 400 words. With some more effort it is possible to determine authors and the median voting time for maximum ROI automatically. Since there is little competition, curationreaper bots deliver a higher ROI than vote selling already, even with the current curation rewards being only 25%. If curation rewards were raised, bots would still outperform human curators, but this would increase the competition of curationreaper bots taking away rewards from human curators subsequently. Probably, we would see curationreaper bots that one can delegate to instead of bid-bots - I doubt though that raising curation rewards would achieve the goal of rewarding content based on its quality.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@justtryme90 ·
$0.95
You summed it up perfectly Kevin. It's why I have delegated a lot of my SP to a bidbot. I regret not doing it a long time ago, as I was just wasting the earnings potential of my SP. You're also right that this is a big issue and generally symptomatic of the broken economics that have plagued steem, for a long time. I am not certain what the correct equation is for effect of stake on the reward pool, but it's very clear it's not linear. (Though this was clear when linear was implemented from the original mechanism).

Hopefully you can use your influence to get more people onboard with creating a fix. It doesn't even need to be the optimal fix (as we may not know what that is until further experimentation), but at least some iterative progression would be nice.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong · (edited)
$0.12
@elear of Utopian is helping coordinate this matter, hopefully getting the ball rolling etc. The other side effect of the current economy is that nobody cares. Every second you care, the more you lose out lol. I hope the top witnesses are compensated well enough to do so. I wonder if I should make another move to only support witnesses that prioritise what some of us think is the most urgent matter that doesnโ€™t require immense R&D to fix.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@justtryme90 · (edited)
$0.02
> Every second you care, the more you lose out lol.

Sums up my entire experience with this platform.

>  @elear of Utopian is helping coordinate this matter

Good to hear that Elear is also on board.

> I wonder if I should make another move to only support witnesses that prioritize what some of us think is the most urgent matter that doesnโ€™t require immense R&D to fix.

Only you can tell you what to do with your stake. :)
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kaminchan ·
$0.18
Very nice with solid reasoning! You have done so much work for us!  The structural setup will  have impact on peopleโ€™s behavior. A good structure would influence a better eco system for all.  
Thank you very much for sharing!
All the best.

Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://steemit.com/@partiko-ios)
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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@kevinwong ·
Thanks! But the work is really in the developers and witnesses who can afford to get it done! (making code and educating the community on the changes that need to happen)
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@kingyus ·
# the busy.pay model is the best ther is: monetizing steem power of your followers
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@knircky ·
$0.34
I dont understand how your proposed changes fix anything.

If you add higher curation reward, now you will upvote only for the curation reward and farm that way.

If you change to a nonlinear reward model, whales become more profitable than new and small users.

If we encourage a culture of downvotinng  it will just be unpleasant over here.

????
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kevinwong · (edited)
Hi @knircky, much appreciated that you dropped by.

We're proposing something along the lines of "A + B + C = D", where A, B, and C are the items in the proposal, and D is the goal of a Steem economy that favors curation enough to beat vote-farming activities. More profitable curation services will emerge out of this and we'll likely have a better platform. A, B, and C must be considered as a whole and not in isolation. We're not saying that changing A results in D, nor change in B results in D, nor change in C results in D. It's really the best of both worlds - both fast and slow activities can coexist on the chain.

Please check out @trafalgar's responses above and we'd appreciate if you can go through the reasoning we've put forth in tandem. In regards to your concerns, I've almost directly responded to these points here: https://steemit.com/steem/@kevinwong/understanding-steem-s-economic-flaw-its-effects-on-the-network-and-how-to-fix-it#@kevinwong/re-donkeypong-re-kevinwong-understanding-steem-s-economic-flaw-its-effects-on-the-network-and-how-to-fix-it-20181016t060251734z
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@oldtimer ·
Good point.
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@leprechaun ·
The problem is a ehale can still make his breakfast post the most popular one by voting it up himself.  Which means the spending  power goes from the poorest to the wealthiest.    With a nonlinear system this is also worse.

Instead of linear, make it constant, 0, and put curation at 100% and make the down votes 100x as powerful.  Make the votes annonymous and all of our balances.
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@lukestokes · (edited)
$0.50
Great post, Kevin. Thank you. Discussing these issues as a community is how we'll eventually see improvement. It's also nice to see this show up as <a href="https://github.com/steemit/steem/issues/3096">a Github issue</a>. I also see from these comments there's <a href="https://github.com/SteemCommunity/steem/issues/11">a discussion on a community Steemit repo</a> as well (very cool!).

I'm willing to support some changes to see how it plays out. I'd also be willing to move things back again if the results end up being worse than what we have now. The tricky thing about these changes is we'll never get complete consensus or make everyone happy. When Facebook changes their UI, people lose their minds. Imagine what will happen when changes are made to "their" money making machine, the Steem blockchain?

As I read through the comments, it does seem like the lack of downvotes significantly contributes to the problems we see. I like the idea of a separate pool for downvotes, but I was also just thinking maybe we need an interface change like this when reacting to content:

![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmVruFFrb3RaXikuTbfojx4bfrCw6mWST7gk4iEYgb9Um2/image.png)

<sub><a href="https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/100754/best-order-for-smiley-rating-scale">Source</a></sub>

Only the first two icons would be a positive vote. The other three would be negative. Instead of using emotional faces (a "good/valuable to the community" post may make someone angry, but it should still be rewarded) we might use a payout scale with money based on a combination of the current pending payout of the post and the additional value the voter can bring. So if a post has a huge potential payout but someone thinks it should be much less, then (depending on their stake weight), they'd select an entry on a spectrum which fits what they'd prefer to see ("That post isn't worth $50, more like $10"). Larger stakes could bring something all the way down to zero (but not negative, if that's not their intention... a "flag" action could be kept for that which is designed to hide the content and decrease the reputation of the account).

Clearly an interface change alone won't help, but I also don't think the current proposal of 50/50 rewards, n^1.2 or 1.3, and a separate pool will help without also implementing an interface change to (over time) remove the stigma of "flagging" and recategorize it as part of the curation process to send accurate value signals to the community.

A datapoint for my position is when the downvote became a "flag" in the interface. That changed people's behavior over time because it changed their belief about what a downvote is.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Hey thanks for dropping by @lukestokes and considering the proposal. Perhaps a UI upgrade to take care of downvotes/flags is necessary. Maybe just make it like reddit's? It'll certainly become more effective with a separate downvote pool and a non-linear economy.

Re: emoji-based voting - has this been tried in any other platforms out there? (that involves $$$)
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@lukestokes ·
Are there any other (surviving) $$$ platforms out there? Seems many are gone. :) I'm not a graphics designer, so that was just an example. Maybe something like:
```
$1...$2...$3...$4...$5...$6...$7...$8...$9
```
etc.
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@lucylin ·
I'm currently been flagged, for this last 2 days  _very aggressively_, and all because I'm posting things that upsets them. 
Free speech offends, or something.. 
I'm posting some political humor cartoon - some npc stuff - ,  and they are now flagging _everything_ I post, nearly (@bloom).
I'll keep doing my thing, but this kind of behavior will drive even more users away from steemit.

I'm not sure if this helps, I'm just here asking for some support of the 'big boy's'...
Retention is already  big enough problem here,  I think. 
Punitive action for free expression? ( not hate,  in any way - but argument ) This    is not conducive to growth, (imo).

Unless the agenda for growth,  is a left leaning political stance platform, like twitter and  facebook..

Any show of support at  this point would be very welcome !

I have had great support yesterday  off  lots of users and haven't lost too much right now with their  upvote support.

Being down voted  $3 or 4 dollars a day, for writing things that are humorous ???(even if you don't like the humor), basically is a big _disincentive_ to stay on the platform.

I'm not going anywhere, (over 12 months now! wooohooo)  ....but if I was a new user?  - I would be gone after this attack for no real reason.

Downvoting is a dangerous ,double edged, sword..
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@lukestokes ·
> Upvoting is a dangerous ,double edged, sword..

I could spin the narrative that way also. What if we upvote the "wrong" content and all that shows up the trending page is total crap. What if new users see that and think the Steem blockchain has terrible content discovery and is just a bunch of circle-jerking nonsense?

People leave for those reasons also.

If you choose to engage in political humor, "meme wars" or anything which might put you in the category of "the bad guys" from someone in an opposing category, well, I guess all I can say is...

<img src="https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmYkTskKf8cSt7dQp1QTivTh1iWYPCohV5bmRTR5ScngdB/image.png">

Some people are <a href="https://steemit.com/tribalism/@lukestokes/tribalism-our-shared-enemy">so tribalistic</a> that if they see an NPC meme, they see fascist and think flagging and attacking them is like storming the beach at Normandy. They may even think they are doing god's work.

In online social forums, spreading political memes is a risky behavior. Thankfully, you will never be fully censored on this blockchain. Someone may have to click "show" to see your posts if your reputation goes too low, but you will never be censored because your content is always on the blockchain forever. This is a censorship resistant platform. If people want to spread memes that anger other people, then okay, that's their choice. It's also the choice of those who are angered to use their voting power to express their disapproval.

If centralized services like reddit, 4chan, facebook, etc are better platforms for them to do their thing, then okay. But all of those can shut your account down completely. Can't happen here.
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@makesushi ·
$0.03
Yes I think your right there is a big issue here on steemit with selling votes, I think all these bid-bots should be banned, the potential for anyone to vote their crapy content is just getting out of control. 
also, these bid bots just keep getting bigger! they are just collecting all steem.
๐Ÿ‘  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@makowrites ·
I prefer this to spamming your wallet, but thanks for supporting @curie and by extension myself on multiple occasions. What you do means the world for small artists like me.

Have an excellent day!

~ Mako
๐Ÿ‘  
๐Ÿ‘Ž  
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
Good to know and thanks for dropping by. I'm just giving back what little I can for the support I've received for the past 2 years!
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@markkujantunen ·
$0.18
I agree with this proposal. Curation rewards should be higher but they alone are not enough. The system should not be as easy to game as the current one. It's worth trying out.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@masterthematrix ·
Great post, I agree that the current voting system is not working like it supposed to do. I discovered that the Smoke Network is using the same voting system like Steem but with curation rewards 50% and author rewards 50%. It seems to work pretty well and I think it would solve many problems discussed in your post. Looking forward to some big change in the voting system! 
๐Ÿ‘  , , ,
๐Ÿ‘Ž  , , , , , , ,
properties (23)
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vote details (12)
@mbigjq82 ·
Hi Kevin, i read this article. it is very comprehensive analysis of steem cycle. most of the steemians are doing same as u mentioned in this article and you present a very nice solution of it.
properties (22)
authormbigjq82
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@miniature-tiger ·
$0.40
Some thoughts on implementation, since these three ideas have been around for a long-time with (I believe) some degree of acceptance (at least on two of them) but no progress in their direction. The central Steemit team already have a large amount to bring home over the next six months, and whilst non-Steemit devs could work towards an implementation, I instead propose a quick-and-dirty solution that could be used, at least for for a trial period. And hopefully without too many of the โ€œnon-trivial costsโ€ referred to in your post.

Iโ€™ll note that Iโ€™m supportive of the separate downvote pool to dis-incentivise anti-social behaviour. And I can also see the argument for higher curation rewards to give large SP holders a reasonably-valued and constructive alternative to vote-selling / self-voting. I donโ€™t favour the super-linear approach, so I suggest an alternative in the proposal below.


**Increase curation rewards (50% is a good start) - โ€œThe carrot.โ€**

* Set up a dApp with a sweet front-end, or appropriate one from a willing participant. Something like steempeak. 
* Set beneficiaries to 25% (actually that might be 33% of author payout - whatever works for the rewards model) and then use off-chain calculations to distribute this 25% beneficiaries amount as additional curation rewards on top of the current 25% from the Steem chain.
* Advertise these potential high curation rewards to the large active SP holders.  
* Get any whales and orcas who buy into the idea to advertise that they will be spending a fair proportion of their upvotes on content created on this dApp platform.

* Create a delegation option where large passive delegators get a fixed 50% return (of vote value - inclusive of curation). The remaining 50% is available for the dApp curation fund. 
* Advertise this to all the large passive bid-bot SP delegators. Maybe a little less than what theyโ€™re currently getting with bid-bot delegation. But good for Steem. Good return for them. 

* So two possibilities for circa 50% rewards - active curation with the additional beneficiary amount or passive delegation. (You may need to flatten / adjust the curation reward curve in the off-chain calculations to make up for the passive voters being at the thin end of any voting - but it should be 50% in aggregate from either approach). 
* Iโ€™ve used 50% but I havenโ€™t looked into the numbers at all. Negotiate and tweak. Bear in mind that the numbers need to work for authors as well as SP holders in order to make content creation worthwhile.


**Subsidize downvotes (cheaper downvotes, separated pool) - โ€œThe stickโ€**

* This is the difficult bit! You need to persuade @ned of the benefits of your idea and the problems currently faced by Steem. And then get him to delegate a large amount of Steem Power from the @steemit account to an account reserved specifically for downvoting
* The @steemit account still has 45m SP available so there is spare capital not currently used for voting.
* The reserved account will only be used for downvoting. Every downvote sends money back to the reward pool and thus increases the value of all other votes / posts. 
* The selling point is that there is no need for any code implementation. Just controls on usage. And it would be free, since @steemit would supply the funds which they arenโ€™t currently using.

Three possibilities for downvoting: 
(1) A centralised approach, like steemcleaners, run by a few trusted people, with a targeted role of downvoting self-voting and excessive / indiscriminate bid-bot use. 
(2) A decentralised approach: Build in a separate downvote button to the dApp (something like flauwyโ€™s 1UP button - 1Down!) with the possibility to propose downvotes on content from across the blockchain. Apply the downvote fund power based on the aggregated votes.
(3) A combination of (1) and (2), perhaps with some rules at to what kind of posts can be downvoted (only posts with self-voting, or bid-bots, or other clear forms of abuse), or a threshold of associated SP held by voters to represent consensus.  

* As the downvoting proposals in (2) are also off-chain they could be anonymous, although I donโ€™t favour this system myself due to the potential for abuse. I would want the aggregate votes at least recorded on the chain even if they werenโ€™t transactions.
* I believe that the actual downvoting may not even be necessary in practice. You just need to have the fund in existence and state its purpose to prevent the abuse.

* The alternative, if you canโ€™t convince @ned, would be to have slightly lower returns all around (30% beneficiary, 45% curation etc) to allow x% for a down voting fund). But obviously this costs and the idea only holds if the numbers are sufficiently attractive all around.


**Move away from pure linear and into something like n^1.3 - โ€œFor the playersโ€**

* I would go manual here instead. I think this works well for some of the other dApps and independent curation teams.
* I would get @curie / @ocd / numerous other community and curation teams on board. Give them a share of any delegated funds (i.e. the 50% remaining from passive investors) to distribute rewards from. Have a real range of content initiatives so that all tastes / genres are catered for.
* Have contests and prizes. Top art post. Top fiction post. Top overall weekly post. Have judges Make the prizes really worthwhile. Drive some quality.  
* The additional rewards distributed by the manual curation teams should make the curation on these posts heavily rewarded and so give the appropriate incentive towards upvoting quality.
* Since you have control over the additional curation rewards you could even have a cut-off point to prevent piling-on after any leaking of prize results.


So those are my thoughts. Benefits are:
* Most (all?) of the technology required for the dApp already exists and is used across the various existing dApps.
* No HF/SF required.
* Limited cost: some development, some hosting required. Iโ€™m sure witnesses will jump at the chance. 
* Flexible. If it doesnโ€™t work, tweak the numbers.
* Is opt-in. Communities who donโ€™t want to go down the 50% curation road wonโ€™t have to.
* Offers something for everyone. Active curators and passive delegators including a new home for passive users currently delegating to bid-bots.

Cons:
* A fair amount of off-chain and so not decentralised. 
* Not a long-term solution - but a good test zone to see what the effects could be in preparation for any future implementation.
* The persuading @ned bit / the lowers numbers otherwise may not be attractive.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@freebornangel ·
$0.05
@steemflagrewards is paying a return on downvotes, just tag the bot, list an abuse, get paid.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@mrblu ·
$0.06
Hope steem will go in the moon so that all of steemians will boost to write articles with positivity and it will give more passion to regain as bloggers.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@mrrah80 ·
#resteemed

Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://steemit.com/@partiko-ios)
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@najoh ·
There is no easy way to do this. You would need a decentralized curator list to reward those who deserve it without forgetting anyone. The thing is, if you spend a few days doing something and you get 0 rewards you will never want to post again. We need a way to never miss good content. For that you need a huge list of curators.

Also those with a lot of SP would be prioritized in the waiting list for curators, your post wouldn't show until curated. Spam posts would be instantly flagged by the curators.
properties (22)
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@nealmcspadden ·
$0.04
I don't see how changing the percentage on curation would solve that self-voting would still be optimal.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@holybranches ·
$0.57
means the gap between the profit that comes with self-voting and voting for others will be reduced to a bearable point.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@nguyenphuc1994 ·
I'm thinking the money is going to fall into crisis time when the popularity is still very low. The excessive number of scams makes people lack trust and do not want to invest. Bitcoin today has soared showing it is about to fall into a disaster. eth discount too much. Surely it is going to collapse?
properties (22)
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@nicnas ·
Your post had been curated by the @buildawhale team and mentioned here: 
 
https://steemit.com/curation/@buildawhale/buildawhale-curation-digest-10-17-18
 
Keep up the good work and original content, everyone appreciates it!
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@novacadian ·
Excellent proposals! 

You may be interested in an idea for a decentralized CAPCHA System, which was floated in an old  blog posts of mine.  


A link is included below for your reading pleasure.

https://steemit.com/steem/@novacadian/a-decentralized-capcha-annonymous-proof-of-brain-verification
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@onthewayout ·
Any non-linear reward distribution algorithm that is stake-weighted will favor the larger SP holders over the smaller ones. We already know how that works (at least those of us that have been here since 2016): small fish begging for votes from the whales (dolphin accounts had no say whatsoever on how the rewards pool was distributed).

An exponential curve between 1 and 2 is much more difficult to implement (I don't recall the post where that was pointed out).  Anyway, as a small investor I would not have bought steem if the rewards curve was non-linear.

The current setup is not the best for rewarding the "most deserving" content. However, social media/blogging is only ***one*** use case of what can be built on top of this blockchain. Personally I don't view Steem as a  social media blockchain but more like a currency distribution system.

Let's not kid ourselves, at the core this discussions boil down to how is that currency distributed and who gets the biggest piece of the pie.

One thing to remember is that ***only*** author rewards are linear, ***curation rewards are distributed using the  square root***. So maybe the solution is to just increase the percentage that goes to the later instead of the former?
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@ats-david ·
>So maybe the solution is to just increase the percentage that goes to the later instead of the former?

This would just incentivize piling onto โ€œtrendingโ€ posts. It would not help with either content discovery or better distribution.
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@onthewayout ·
Voting on trending posts does not give you higher curation rewards (on the contrary). Voting on content that might "trend" is more profitable,  regardless if curation gets 10%, 25% or 50%. I only vote on a trending post once in a blue moon for that reason.  Increasing curation rewards would be an incentive for voting  instead of posting.
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@pharesim · (edited)
$0.81
I appreciate your initiative bringing back some movement in the rewards discussion. A higher curation reward share and free flags both sound good to me.

Although I share @whatsup's concern that moving back to a superlinear curve will not incentivize voting on better content but on known successful authors, I also feel like the overall situation can't get worse than it is now. After the last big changes to the reward system we said we'll have to test and change more, so let's do that!

I'm also not convinced that paying stakers an automated return wouldn't improve the content rating - as long as they get the same they'd get with vote farming. Why should anyone put in the work if they can make the same or more without. What I can see though is a risk that the reward pool would shrink to a small fraction of what it is today. Definitely a lot bigger change than your proposal, so I'll support that for now.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kevinwong ·
Hi thanks for dropping by @pharesim!

> Although I share @whatsup's concern that moving back to a superlinear curve will not incentivize voting on better content but on known successful authors, I also feel like the overall situation can't get worse than it is now.

Curation services will emerge out of the proposal and we'll have the best of both worlds (something like n^1.3, which is between n and n^2), just need sometime for it to play out until it reaches the new economic equilibrium. Cheaper downvotes are a contingency and coupled with n^1.3, we'd have a manageable playing field for community self-reg.

> I'm also not convinced that paying stakers an automated return wouldn't improve the content rating - as long as they get the same they'd get with vote farming. Why should anyone put in the work if they can make the same or more without.

With the proposed changes, passive staking could work (or else we just have a shrunken rewards pool under the same econs), although stakeholders will most likely delegate to curation services which should more or else bring about the same returns as bidbots.
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@pharesim · (edited)
$0.26
Well, probably everything has been said by now. Flags aren't free, they have a social cost. And a big issue in the reward economics is that we force people to participate in something they don't care about. Those will always go the easiest route to make their profit, which under superlinear means automation towards successful authors. With n^1.x less than in the old days, but probably still noticeable. 
The reward economics would drastically change when staking is more profitable than vote farming, the assumption that it'd stay the same doesn't make sense to me. There'd be no more bid bots and self voting, as those looking to maximize profits wouldn't participate in that econ any more.
But that's running in circles with assumptions on both sides, no way to tell with certainty without testing in the live environment.
Anything that makes bidbots less profitable is good, and that's something your suggestion will definitely achieve!
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@pizzapai ·
I want to take this opportunity to say thank you!
Appreciate your support all the while!!!
I hope Everyone is sensible like you!

Although It is hard for me to digest fully but I'm trying my best to read and think about it again and again... 

I think I'm not smart enough in doing vote-farming.. I wish I can catch up by writing my blog or aunty information to share and hope to get encouragement and being curated by you all!!! ๐Ÿ˜† 
Thank you. I'm your fans! 
Now I don't confuse you with @etherpunk already. Lol!!!!!
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@positivesteem ·
$0.21
I do hope that the top management of Steemit will take seriously the proposals put forward.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@awesomianist ·
The scary/beautiful thing about Steem is that there is no real "top management". Steemit.inc try as they might, no longer holds the helm of the Steem Blockchain. It takes overwhelming consensus (95%) of the top 20 voted witness to exact change. 

And in this case, knowing what @kevinwong proposed and knowing who the top 20 witnesses are, I think 95% is highly unlikely at best.
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@programmingvalue ·
$0.09
Maybe install a mechanism to reward good downvotes too, but this is pretty dangerous actually.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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@programmingvalue ·
$0.10
I do agree that the lack of incentives to downvote imbalances the platform.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@quinneaker ·
$1.96
I don't disagree with any points made here, I think its been obvious to anyone paying attention for way over a year. 
Though I would have one major statement to make and one question. 
There is no way you will keep profit seeking gamers away from working the system. It takes to long to implement hard forks and is to easy for a gamer to come up with work arounds. The problem is now how Steem works but how PEOPLE work. 
This is never going to be fixed by trying to create rules that MAKE people do what we want... If anything it will only make them leave. Then the price of steem will crash and everyone will still be complaining as the rewards will be even worse than they were with people uprooting them selfs. 

So the REAL question here is of which everyone actually needs to be asking. How do we provide a quality return (which means, reliable, easy and high enough %) on the investment whales make?

This is the answer. If we can find a way that is better for the over all eco system yet still provides a reliable, consistent and profitable return then its all taken care of. 

Almost no investor is going to invest in a platform not to make money. Also most whales do NOT have the time nor desire to curate. Plus higher curation rewards wouldn't change anything anyways. Just use curation bots. Easy peasy. 

Glad everyone is thinking about this, but simple economics shows that its the ones with money who hold the influence. So have to find a way to GIVE them INCENTIVE to move in the direction the community wants. 

SteemOn!
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@kevinwong ·
$0.09
Hey thanks for dropping by @quinneaker, I think it just takes a lot of repetition and  refinement in arguments to get the points through. There's a bit of momentum this time around as ned has considered it in the comment section of his recent post.

Check out @trafalgar's response above. He's answered your concerns very well!
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@quinneaker ·
$2.77
Yes, all progress takes vast amounts of collective discussion, meditation, pondering and even arguing. Thats why this is great. Though with that being said my statements/questions still seem to be the key in that process. I read a LOT of comments including many from @trafalgar but did not see one that answered clearly and specifically my questions/statements. I can look again as its a critical issue. 
Best regards and SteemOn!
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vote details (6)
@rapidhighlights ·
now i truly understand
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@raysan ·
Thank you very much for your analysis. We will hope that the platform better. Thanks.
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@reggaemuffin ·
$0.32
After discussing with many others, I tried to collect and summarize the overall sentiment and propose a change that many should agree with: https://github.com/SteemCommunity/steem/issues/11 I will edit the issue with more information as discussion evolves.
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vote details (5)
@kevinwong ·
Thanks a lot @reggaemuffin, much appreciated!!
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@rj23 ·
First time iv'e logged in for ages because of all these issues. I was hopeful that when EOS launched and it has now, there was going to be somewhat of a steem 2.00 addressing all these issues that where wrong with it. When I looked it up the main social DAP on EOS I found It was a Asian one and not in english.  What are the best current alternative social platforms that have learnt from the issues with Steem?
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@rynow ·
$0.26
Hi @kevinwong
I am afraid that by rewarding curation at a higher value, will just lead to a different bad behavior, people will just vote for the same posts that traditionally get high payouts, to try and maximize their curation rewards, good content will still not be discovered. Further to this, people will also receive curation rewards for self voting, and if they buy bits from bidbots, their self vote curation will even be more profitable. Why can bidbots not be banned?? Bidbots, make a joke out of the reputation system!!
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong · (edited)
Hi, thanks for your input @rynow. 

Bidbots are a result of a pure linear rewards system. It's easy to price votes and sell it out or exchange, hence providing an outlet for maximum profit with least effort. Yes you may be right that curation alone won't help. The proposal cannot be taken apart and have each elements considered isolation. With the three suggestions together, the aim is to just make it more likely that voters use their SP on curation rather than reserving it for themselves like we've in the current economy. It's easier to stomp out bad curation too under the proposed changes.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@rynow ·
I really hope it will work, and that we will see the end of bidbots.
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@serkagan ·
$0.03
Excellent review, my friend and I agree with you completely regarding the voting. So far, unfortunately, we see some shortcomings of the system, but more and more participants come to a fair understanding of their role in the vote, and thus, I hope, we will pass these difficulties! Thank you @kevinwong
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vote details (30)
@silvertop ·
By the time you start to understand how steemit really works, you realize just how broken it is.  I too have joined the farming game ......
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@sirknight ·
Don't SMTs solve all this anyway?

SirKnight.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@sleekgene ·
Educative context. Thanks @Kevinwong
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@sleekgene ·
thanks @kevinwong for the enlightenment
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@snubbermike ·
None of what you are discussing will make Steem a better content discovery platform.  You might as well drop that from your consideration now, because its a fools game.   If you have a widespread platform with a widespread user base, from widespread geographical areas, there can be no consensus (or even close) as to what constitutes good content.

The changes you are talking about will do nothing to encourage better content, but might better reward popularity. (Which is a good thing).

And it is popularity that you should be focused on.

A great example of how this site will be improved is through apps like #sharetosteem.

Can you imagine the increase in users here if some of the biggest names on Twitter started to officially share their tweets on Steem? 

There would be a mad race to upvote Trump tweets - regardless of the dubious content contained therein... 

Focus on popularity, and focus on the social aspect - but forget about rewarding good content.  You will never devise a reward scheme that will better reward quality over popularity anyway.

And forget the downvote option.  Downvoting will only result in lost users.
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@socky ·
$2.14
There is an entirely different way to supplement the voting pool while implementing restrictions for self voting and vote selling. If the voting pool is reduced, there would little to no incentive to use the platform. After all it is slow, clunky and has a very small population with respect to other social platforms. Better rewards with incentives to do good or restrictions for bad actors could be implemented. But where would we get the extra revenue to do this?

Here is the idea:
Start a centralized exchange to complete with the likes of Binance, UpBit, Coinbase, Poloniex etc. yet have STEEM and SBD as the common trading pairs. If Steemit Inc were to create and run it, they can generate massive revenue to supplement their Software Engineers. Excess revenue can go toward supplementing the voting pool or towards rewarding good actors and good witnesses. There is no problem getting support and usership as All major exchanges canโ€™t resync their nodes in a timely manor. People would use the new centralized exchange as they canโ€™t use Binance or Poloniex. By the way both Binance and Poloniex STEEM wallets have down for a month. This isnโ€™t the first time for Binance either. Their Steem wallets have been down for a full month before. Poloniex Steem wallets have been down for 6 months in recent past. 

But get this, an exchange with all the major cryptocurrencies traded with STEEM and SBD can be created by anyone with the right technical knowledge. It doesnโ€™t require Steemit Inc to do it. Whales could even pool their resources to fund startup costs They wonโ€™t need to self vote as the exchange will be so much more profitable.
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vote details (4)
@someonewhoisme ·
$0.09
Downvoting should be better incentivized, so that the site is properly moderated. Maybe that's what you meant by subsidize downvotes...didn't have time to read all your post
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
Yes, essentially making it less costly to do so.
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@sorin.cristescu ·
$0.06
"An economic system is flawed when it relies on the altruism and sacrifice of some users." - Yep, born and raised in communist Romania, I can confirm that, that is also the fundamental flaw of communism
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@sorin.cristescu ·
$0.25
>Content indifferent behavior is the bane of this system. No social media platform can survive if it's unable to at least sort exposure and rewards by some subjective standard of quality.

I fully agree with the diagnosis. I'm not sure about the solution proposed here - for instance, I don't quite see why linear rewards are a problem and going for something like 1.3 would improve the system. I do think downvoting has powerful **social** costs that should not be left out of the equation. 

I am convinced the problem should be addressed, it is essential it gets addressed. In my mind the way to go is not to "tweak" the curation parameters and the downvote incentives. In my mind the current steemit system only has a monetary layer and it misses the social layer.

I believe the solution is more likely to come from overlaying a stronger non-monetary, social system on top of the economic one
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@kevinwong ·
$0.03
For n to n<sup>1.3</sup> has a cost of inequality, although not as extreme as n<sup>2</sup>. What we want is just 10% of the cost of n<sup>2</sup> for 90% of its benefits. The benefits are:-
- It'll force any content indifferent behaviour to congregate, making it manageable to regulate with community votes. Under linear, anyone can just split into very small accounts and farm as efficiently. But these days, no one even has to bother splitting because it's futile and too costly to flag. 
- It'll destabilize the pricing of votes. It's straight-forward to price votes in the voting market under linear. Exchange a $100 vote for a $100 vote, selling away a $100 vote for 90 SBD, etc. Just depends how low a price the voting market is willing to go. So currently we have a perpetually discounted pool of Steem in the voting market (bidbots, vote-exchange deals, etc) and should be mitigated.

It's a matter of economic incentives. Check out @trafalgar's recent post and thread on it.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@sorin.cristescu ·
Thank you, I have read @trafalgar's post and commented on it too. 

Ok, maybe the 1.3 or 1.25 could "nudge" in the right direction, it's probably worth trying. 

It's not that the economics cannot be tweaked and improved by doing so. It can, although expect some of the tweaks misfire and lead to other unwanted behaviors. 

One thing that might be worth considering is that at this point the reward/risk ratio for tweaking the economic incentives went "below" the equivalent ratio for implementing more social features. "Below" in the sense that the reward for the latter is higher and the risk lower than for the former.

Example: you are kevinwong and I am sorin.cristescu. I've watched a youtube video where I saw you on stage with andrarchy at steemfest 1. You are a real person to me, thus I am a lot less likely to flag you if I don't agree with you - I automatically granted you the respect owed to another fellow human. It's not the same if you were, say, @xyz987 with no avatar picture. It would be even worse if **I could act hidden** behind a random pseudonym like @bla42. 

What I mean is that a conversation between @bla42 and @xyz987 has much more risk of descending into a flame war and name calling and flagging and disrespect. And with disrespect come reflexes such as "it's ok to steal from that scoundrel I don't respect" 

Also it's psychologically much easier to be a spammer and a scammer when you hide behind a random pseudo like @bla42 or @xyz987 than when you walk here under your real name.

Not sure I'm being very eloquent here ... I hope you get my point. 

Let's work together on some sets of shared values (a set per community) and then offer both economic and social incentives for users to adhere to the set of values they prefer and then stay true to those values because it will be in their best self interest. So yes, economic incentives, but **reinforced with social incentives**
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@spectrumecons · (edited)
$0.27
Great @kevinwong. I strongly agree with you. I wrote about this problem three months ago (in the context of bid-bots) and I know you have raised the same issues several times in comments and posts. I have read posts from last year identifying the problems you discussed. 

I am disappointed that Steemit Inc have not even raised vote-selling/self-voting to be a problem. If everyone self-voted or delegated to bots, Steem would be dead. 

Maybe your ideas can be raised publicly at Steemfest. I believe @ned will be in attendance.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
Yeah I hope someone raises it, I think I'm opting out of SF3 this year just in case I lose it trying to explain this thing over and over again haha
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@snubbermike ·
Without the ability to stop your holdings from being inflated away at 8% per year, there is no incentive for someone to hold Steem in the first place.

It would crash much worse and much quicker if people were guaranteed to lose there capital at a rate of 8% per year.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@spectrumecons ·
Looks like you are assuming the market cap for Steem remains the same. If that is the case then you are correct. If people are producing content that adds value to the platform, the market cap will increase; 8% is not exactly a huge annual increase to compete with. Take a look at Facebook for example, they've had many years of more than 100% increase in market cap.

We could argue 8% inflation per year could be too small. We need a rewards pool large enough to attract content creators with sufficient talent to attract more attention to Steem. The more activity we have on the platform, the faster the platform will grow. Eventually, we should see post sponsorship as well as advertisements appearing in the posts that are attracting the most attention.

In short, there is plenty of incentive to hold Steem even if our Steem holdings increase by less than 8%.
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@sreleyas ·
Great Information Cevin.
To date, most businesses are interested in customer loyalty. Even they do not say so loudly.

But what is customer loyalty?
This is a simple indicator that your customers will be back to you again. And the best, they will bring new customers.

How can you measure customer loyalty?
Enterprises have different ways of measuring loyalty, but the most fundamental thing is to see and study the frequency, with which the customer communicates with the product or services during your "cooperation". This is done through your sales report or database.

Considering that the global loyalty market is estimated to be $ 300 + $ 1bn, the finance company provides a solution for retailers based on MOZOCOIN blockbusters, which will increase the flow of subscribers to their savings. Soon, thanks to the innovation of MOZO COINS, organizers will forget the question "Where to get customers?

How do I understand MOZOCOIN's solution?
The MozoWokin project stores, retailers and those who provide shopping for the purchase, browsing or purchase of their tokens only, to build trustworthy relationships with their customers, to increase traffic and attract new partners. Thanks to this loyalty program, the goal of success, customers can deposit MOZO token and buy them for special deals, coupons, discounts or other available promotions.

Benefits of Mozo Ecosystem
Why do you want to show a reason to focus on the Mozoquine project is its absolutism Mojo retailers, big shopping centers, stadiums and other places are equally suitable for traffic attraction. MOZO Token can not only be used as a prize, but they will be used in any affiliate store to increase mozzo ecosystem sales, increase brand awareness or product quality, and be more loyal to customers

Another advantage of MOZO is that most of the blockkun projects, which are basically different from the paper project (concept), are a functional product of MOZO which has already been tested and tested and ready for use.

From now on, after downloading the MOZO app on the phone, clients and prospective buyers can be sent to different parts of the shopping center. With shoppers shoppers, you can choose when and when to start MOZO promotion campaigns. For example, if one of the shopping center's floors is not popular, you can visit this building and reward some of the MOZO tokens of viewers who have made a purchase here. Owners can control payments after customers commit a action.

After feedback from customers to set up previous projects, the team has improved the Mozo app. There is a new update for the SDK, which is targeted for the convenience of using both wallets for both the customer and the developer

ICO

Presale dates - May 8, 2018 to July 10, 2018
Crowdsale dates - from 11 July, 2018 to 18 July, 2018

Token information:
Token name: Mozo;
โ€ข Platform: etc;
โ€ข Token type: ERC20;
โ€ข Token value during first round of ICO: 0.09 USD;
โ€ข Token value during first round of ICO: 0.12 USD

Investment related information
โ€ข Payment is accepted: BTC, ETH, LTC, DASH and DOGE;
โ€ข Hard Caps: 42,000,000 USD (first round) and 46,000,000 USD (second round).

The total number of Mozo Token will be 5 billion
Total token for sale 700 million MOZO
PreICO bonus time will reach 20%.
Bounce - 5,000,000 MOZO
๐Ÿ‘Ž  
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vote details (1)
@stealthtrader · (edited)
Good points brotha! I really think Steemit is great just as a positive social network/community that gives you the ability to not only have a vote, but be able to send value instantly, to anyone with no fees!
๐Ÿ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@yonny ·
$0.19
Right now itโ€™s more like โ€œevery man for themselvesโ€
๐Ÿ‘  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@retiredinsamar ·
$0.06
Yup, and if you piss off the wrong people... you might as well go back to facebook!
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , , ,
๐Ÿ‘Ž  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (15)
@steemitboard ·
Congratulations @kevinwong! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

[![](https://steemitimages.com/70x70/http://steemitboard.com/notifications/toppayoutday.png)](http://steemitboard.com/@kevinwong) Your post got the highest payout on one day

<sub>_Click on the badge to view your Board of Honor._</sub>
<sub>_If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word_ `STOP`</sub>



**Do not miss the last post from @steemitboard:**
<table><tr><td><a href="https://steemit.com/steemitboard/@steemitboard/steemitboard-ranking-update-steem-power-followers-and-following-added"><img src="https://steemitimages.com/64x128/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmfRVpHQhLDhnjDtqck8GPv9NPvNKPfMsDaAFDE1D9Er2Z/header_ranking.png"></a></td><td><a href="https://steemit.com/steemitboard/@steemitboard/steemitboard-ranking-update-steem-power-followers-and-following-added">SteemitBoard Ranking update - Steem Power, Followers and Following added</a></td></tr></table>

> Support [SteemitBoard's project](https://steemit.com/@steemitboard)! **[Vote for its witness](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=steemitboard&approve=1)** and **get one more award**!
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@steemmatt · (edited)
Kevin - I think your point that there's nothing wrong w/ self-voting or self-voting calls for a third pillar: 

#3 - There's also _nothing_ wrong with sharing Steem Power to contribute to maintaining and growing utility and adoption.  

The beauty of the economics behind this is geared to scaling back on short-term personal economic incentives in lieu of a healthier user base that exponentially increases over time, therefore likely creating more substantial benefit downstream.  Long-term vision for this may also carry a significant weight, although many seem to not consider it such a priority.  

Imagine the developers we need to onboard checking Steemit out now...  Giving me a pass without a PhD in economics, they'll see the heavily self-insulating behavior of its stakeholders.   They'll recognize that non-self content discovery/upvoting is a dying art, which people continue to rationalize via competitions and blaming Steemit, Inc. 
 Much like tons of amazing early adopters who could've built on this blockchain, they'll go somewhere else.

Many people seem to be heavily focused on draining the pool during these ongoing debates versus being a fountain keen on fueling and later harvesting the long-term benefits.
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@etherpunk ·
Youโ€™re blaming the driver here, not the obviously broken car..
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@steemmatt · (edited)
It depends on vantage point. Respectfully, the car can only be blamed and used as a defense for so long before itโ€™s not just the carโ€™s fault. A perfectly engineered car might not change the behavior and values weโ€™re seeing today when money is involved.

My point about a third cog is still perfectly valid. We all want this place to succeed. Weโ€™re all frustrated. There are lots of views that are relevant here, especially for those who hold some different concerns and vantage points as the ground troops. Please try to appreciate that. 

Thanks for reading my comments.
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@steemmatt ·
*It's also not a blame game.  Everyone is responsible for their own actions, regardless of whether they feel like it's socially or economically acceptable, or not, in any condition or circumstance.  Humbly observed, you have the platform to lead and be listened to by the right people here (something most wish they could have), and I feel that other bad drivers have not been the best of influences.
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@steevc ·
$0.12
I'm not self-voting these days. It might gain me 30c on a post and I get more than that anyway thanks to you and other fine people plus schemes like Helpie and Steem UA. I use up my voting power supporting others and flagging some vote dampers to try and steer them to a better course. It does work sometimes. What return should I expect anyway? I didn't buy my steem and neither did most others. I invest my time, but I've done that on other platforms for nothing. Especially at this stage we need to be building up Steem rather than looking for instant profit. If everyone just self votes it's dead for sure. We smaller players can't do anything about the bigger vote farmers as they are likely to strike out in revenge. Not everyone is out to get rich. Some want to create something the world needs.

I do appreciate some really need the money. Witnesses have costs to cover. That said, I see a lot of greed and that's not how I want to see this go.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@snubbermike ·
"I didn't buy my steem and neither did most others."

Without making Steem attractive enough for people to invest in it, then the price must go down.  

Without buyers, Steem is worth $0. 

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@steevc ·
It has value if it's useful and free/fast transactions may make it so. There are various ways to make your steem earn for you, but I think that mass self-voting will do it no good. Better curation rewards might help. I use this platform because its fun and I think it has potential for good. Making money is a bonus
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@suffragator · (edited)
$0.63
The most common problem that leads to failure of an economy is wealth inequality.  When wealth inequality becomes too high the people at the top create rules/policies to make sure their wealth is protected so they can continue earning wealth, while the people at the bottom begin to give up because they see the economy can no longer provide what they need to survive because most of the already created and new currency is going to people at the top.  This applies to all economic models, does not matter if those economies are created by governments or blockchains.

So if you want to make the STEEM blockchain more successful the solution is simple, you have to create rules that provide a more even distribution of the STEEM that is created.  I would make the following two changes
# 1
Only allow 1 upvote per account from another account in a 24 hour period.  Meaning you can only upvote yourself once in 24 hours and any other account only once every 24 hours. (this would not eliminate but improve the unequal distribution of newly created STEEM and you can post as much as you want, it would only be a voting restriction) 

# 2
Make downvotes anonymous and also put the same 24 hour restriction per account on downvotes.  I think most people do not downvote because they fear retaliation from bigger accounts.

The two above steps would be enough to attract users because it would force people to spread their votes out among many accounts.  You can add another step if you want to make an extreme change by eliminating voting bots.

# 3
Create a captcha feature on the blockchain to verify every vote cast is being cast by a human, this would basically eliminate all automated voting and force people to participate.

There are of course reasons for and against this but basically a social network website is just that, a place for humans to socially interact.  When a human buys $1000 USD worth of STEEM and rents that STEEM via a voting bot to earn interest and does not socially interact on that website that does nothing to improve the website.  All they did is buy STEEM from an existing user and are now selling their vote, their purchase at the time may have increased the value of STEEM but they are not contributing to the long term success of the platform.

The real value of the STEEM blockchain are the human users who participate and interact on it every day.  STEEM is worthless, it only has value when humans assign value to it, the more humans participate the more humans will value it.
๐Ÿ‘  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@princewahaj ·
I mainly upvoted the comment for the first idea of yours. It's interesting.

As for the 2nd, anonymous downvoting seems not possible with the blockchain.

As for the 3rd, captcha feature won't help at all or maybe help very little. There are a lot of anti-captcha services and it's quite easy for bot creators to implement an anti-captcha service into their bots.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@smooth ·
Bots simply bypass the web UI altogether and interact with the blockchain via the API. They won't see a captcha nor need to circumvent it, thought they could if they needed to as you say.
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@snubbermike ·
Your ideas would kill any incentive to buy and hold Steem.

Holders of Steem would be losing 8% per year to inflation, with no benefit.

So what you are advocating is for those who can afford to buy and hold be forced to subsidize those at the bottom through the inflationary tax imposed by the system.

If holders can not at least keep up with inflation, there is no reason to buy Steem. 


Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@suffragator ·
Humans invented currency to be used as an exchange medium for goods and services.  An economy is only successful if the majority of humans who participate in that economy are earning and spending currency.  An economy begins to fail when the majority of humans who participate are no longer earning enough which means they are not spending enough, this is usually due to, too much money being earned by the minority and being held by the minority.

The STEEM blockchain is an economy, not exactly like an economy created by a country's government, but these same principals still apply.  Currently the main thing that gives STEEM value is the social media website(s) that function on top of the STEEM blockchain.  So if you want to ensure long term success of the STEEM blockchain you have to create an economy that will benefit the majority which will mostly be new users creating accounts on the STEEM blockchain.

In the future if tens of millions of more users sign up onto the STEEM blockchain and they start using STEEM as a currency to exchange for real world goods and services that will also increase the value of STEEM.  That is happening a little bit now but most of the value humans see in STEEM is from the social media aspect it was designed for.

>If holders can not at least keep up with inflation, there is no reason to buy Steem.

When a user buys STEEM, it may increase the price of STEEM vs another currency at that moment in time, but that does nothing for the long term growth of the STEEM blockchain.  All that happens is STEEM is moved from an existing user X account to a new user Y account.  If user Y does not participate on the social media aspect of the STEEM blockchain but only uses their new bought STEEM to earn more STEEM by selling their votes, they are not contributing value, they are extracting value.  Not only that, they are only able to extract that value because other users who actually participate buy their votes.

The reason I proposed the 3 steps I did is because that is an economic model that would benefit users who participate on the social media aspect and forces all users to spread out their voting power to many users.  If you want the STEEM blockchain to compete with sites like facebook/twitter/instagram you have to attract more users to sign up.  New users will not sign up nor participate when the see the majority of new created STEEM is going to those users who already have the majority of STEEM that has been created in the past.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@sorin.cristescu ·
very interesting ideas, I think they are really going in the right direction !
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@spectrumecons ·
You raise some interesting points. Rule 1, could be effective as it restricts continuous voting of the same content, i.e. 10 times a day as we have seen with some accounts. 

Rule 2 would be very difficult to apply as all actions are recorded on the blockchain. Any initiation of a downvote would be traceable back to the account in one way or another.

Rule 3 could also be tricky to implement as well as some accounts are partially automated.
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@sumo1st ·
$0.02
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vote details (38)
@swingtrades ·
$0.14
@kevinwong I'm new to this platform and I quickly noticed some problems you referred to.
Today you received one more vote as witness from me in hope you change this.
Thank you.
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
Thank you! I've been trying but the higher ups don't seem to see the problem. It has been reported since earlier this year
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@techwizardry ·
Nobody is going to effectively curate manually for any sustained period of time (weeks, moths) without adequate compensation. All of these formulations and adjustments will be very temporary solutions that will eventually be gamed one way or another. 

Steemit is fine as it is. I get to see plenty of good content every day. Some are well-written posts, some are memes, etc...

Nothing needs fixing. Let the SMTs launch and let the chips fall where they may.
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@dana-edwards · (edited)
$0.02
I agree. Increase curation but also go back to the economics of 2017. As bad as people claim the current situation is, at least in 2017 quality content was being generated and discovered. How does it look now?

People still generate good content and always will. But the discovery of that content is the issue. The best content isn't discovered for months. I've seen good content searching Google more than I have on the trending page. And even this post here is only on trending because there are ways to boost your profile by buying votes. Which means it's impossible to organically be discovered by the original rules of the game.

Show me otherwise? Show me some trending content where they didn't buy the votes?
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@techwizardry ·
The votes for sale is essentially the free market working, don't you get it? There was a need, and someone created a service to fill that need. Trying to game this out via central planning always fails.
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@themanualbot ·
$0.26
Its ironic to think that steem inc wanted this platform to be fully decentralized yet not listening to "decentralized" thoughts and ideas  as inputs from whales who care. Because not even a single steemit-connected whale dares to share some views and plans. 

But lets give it a wait then.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@therebotelife ·
It's helpful 

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://steemit.com/@partiko-android)
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@programmingvalue ·
$0.09
How is this helpful to you?
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@tobixen ·
I feel quite uneasy with over-linear rewards.  It will be a great gift for the posters that rakes in the most rewards already (perhaps because they post quality content, but more often just because they happen to be in the right feeds and have the right friends), it will encourage the  [Keynesian Beauty Contest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_beauty_contest)-effect where people vote for the most popular authors regardless of the quality, it will also be a great subsidy for the biggest whales and biggest bid-bots as "more is (much) better".

I have another suggestion which I believe is less radical - reduce the inflation rate!  Yes, that ultimately means less money in the reward pool, less money to the block producers, less money to the curators - and as for the biggest whales, they would earn the most by activities that would help raising the value of Steem!

For some of us, Steem was never about getting rich, but about having an alternative social media platform.
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@trafalgar · (edited)
$15.79
Great post Kevin, no surprise that I entirely agree as most of this has been covered from our private discussions

I just want to dispel a few <b>common misconceptions</b> that always seem to distort the conversation

* MYTH - We have a problem of greed 

Very few investors are in crypto to exercise altruism alone. Any successful economic system must assume all players wish to maximize their returns, then align behavior that add the greatest value with the highest rewards. Linear fails at this as it leads to content agnostic behavior gaining the highest rewards.

* MYTH - This is a problem of culture

We had a relatively functional voting economy around this time last year, and despite this, we find ourselves in a complete failure of a content discovery platform today. Broken Window Theory - If we failed at changing the culture for the better when it was much easier to do so because people back then were generally behaving better, what hope do we have of doing it now that vote rewards don't track content quality at all? This isn't a problem of culture, it's purely about misaligned economic incentives.

* MYTH - This problem is inherent to stake based voting 

No it is not. Under certain conditions such as superlinear, the value of your vote can vary heavily depending on the popularity of the post on which you're voting. This means you can easily earn more curating potentially good content than voting your own posts up from 0. A combination of superlinear, additional downvote power and higher curation, as suggested, can likely allow content reflective voting behavior to out compete content indifferent behavior (eg. vote selling/farming).

* Vote farming/Self voting don't provide the highest returns anyway - Irrelevant

You may be talking about tracking bid bot payments and/or known high self voters and getting your vote in beforehand to extract some fat curation rewards. Firstly, larger whales would not be able to do this due to the size of their votes, and therefore, the bigger votes on this platform which determine overall rewards and exposure are still going to be content indifferent. Secondly, once the market matures enough, it's trivially easy to avoid - larger voters can just spam multiple posts (hundreds perhaps) and only vote up the ones after 15 mins with the least curation 'stolen'.

* SMTs and Good Person Tokens will solve this - Problematic View

Maybe. Don't get me wrong, I think SMTs are great. But they're 6 months away and in reality, it'll take far longer for any of them to garner sufficient market confidence to really play a role in the content discovery process. The use of Oracles also impose very high practical cost and a lot can go wrong in reality. Basically they're very far off and a lot needs to go right for them to work effectively. Something like n^1.3, 10% free downvotes and 50% curation is just a lot more direct and simpler and easier to implement. Ultimately we need the Steem base token to have a functional reward distribution too, not just SMTs, which are a big If.

* Superlinear/Higher Curation/Stronger Downvotes are bad - BUT NOT AS BAD AS A FAILED PLATFORM

Yes all three of these suggestions have a non trivial cost. But compared to a completely dysfunctional content discovery and rewards system and they are very much worth exploring. The idea is to use just enough of these measures to tilt the scales of profit maximization behavior from content agnostic to content reflective and leaving behind as much as we can to incentivize content creators.
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vote details (41)
@dana-edwards ·
$0.97
So far this post and these arguments have won me over onto the side of we need to hard fork and change the economics. While we could wait until 2019 I really do not think it is good for the health of the platform to do this. I do not know of SMTs will come too late so it might be better to make these changes now.

For instance Ethereum knows when it's time to make a change. They are reducing their mining reward because they know there is a problem. Why can't Steem? At this point I don't see any content producer benefiting or winning in the current economic situation. Show me if there are any who aren't simply self upvoting or buying votes who are succeeding? In 2017 some were succeeding by the rules of the game but now there doesn't seem to be that possibility for anyone.
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vote details (8)
@trafalgar ·
$1.44
yes, I think there's a lot of noise in the debate that's adding to the confusion because they're not framing the problem correctly. The problem is this:

With linear and 25% curation, we have a system that rewards content indifferent voting behavior 4x more than good voting behavior that somewhat reflects content quality. This leads to a complete failure of a content discovery and rewards platform which is our initial mission.

The solution is to introduce any alternative economic rewards system that can completely close this gap so that good voting behavior can out compete brainless voting in terms of returns. Every measure I can think of has a cost - superlinear, x% free downvotes, higher curation % etc.

The idea is to use a combination of these measures to as little an extent as possible to minimize costs while still having it sufficient to break the current equilibrium of content agnostic voting behavior. We believe n^1.3, 50% curation, 10% free downvotes are roughly the right numbers, but are open to any other alternative suggestions.

I think it's at least important for people to consider the framing of the problem and see if they agree we hit the nail on the head there. At least this way we don't start off lost in confusion which is what's happening most of the time.
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vote details (7)
@valued-customer ·
>"At this point I don't see any content producer benefiting or winning in the current economic situation."

If the only metric considered is economic, then only economic undertakings are considerable in analyzing success.  I have attained much success at engagement and gaining insight through the criticisms of better minds of my thoughts, and this is far more valuable to me than some dollars, or Steem.

For social media and UX like Steemit to actually succeed at changing the world, other metrics that are more important than mere money must be considered.  It is the focus on stake and stake-weighting, a legacy of indoctrination imposed by banksters whose hoarding of wealth produces much of the misery of the real world, that has engendered many of the extant problems regarding Steemit rewards.

I reckon that better understanding what is really valuable to us will make fixing the economic distortions effected currently via extant rewards mechanisms far more doable, by relegating money to it's rational place in our value hierarchy.  As long as economic factors are the only considerations, we will be unable to rectify our societal values with rewards mechanisms.

Thanks!
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@igster ·
$7.23
I also support all of these changes. The current situation is not sustainable and I'm amazed how @ned has allowed the ecosystem to deteriorate to this point while still having his employees talk about "proof-of-brain" with straight face. 

This is #1 issue facing us, has been for a year, some of us saw this coming, others are blind or just happy with the short term profits that will kill this project as a whole. 

What I would like to see is have all top witnesses gather and talk about this, perhaps we can put forward something without the need of Steemit Inc, leaving them to focus on SMT's if they so desire. We need to fix this ASAP.

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vote details (8)
@someonewhoisme ·
$0.05
>the ecosystem to deteriorate to this point while still having his employees talk about "proof-of-brain" with straight face.

lmao I also find it funny how people create new words in this new industry
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@smooth · (edited)
$0.92
> The idea is to use just enough of these measures

In that case, we can start with just improved downvoting, and see if that is enough. An awful lot of these discussions go:

1. Such-and-such (self-voting, bid bots, paid votes, etc.) is profitable but anti-social
2. If you do that you may get downvoted
3. Not a real concern; nobody downvotes because its too expensive.

Let's try addressing that first and then see we'll see what other non-trivial costs, if any, need to be incurred.

To add some color where I stand on this, I'm absolutely in favor of higher curation (possibly higher than 50% but certainly at least 50%) and moderately against superlinear (but could probably be talked into some version of it). However, I'm fairly certain that no structure without better downvote incentives will work and not at all certain that downvotes alone are not enough to solve most if not all of the problem. So I would say let's try the simpler and in some ways less contentious approach of much cheaper downvotes first and see how that works out.
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vote details (10)
@dana-edwards ·
Downvoting doesn't provide incentive for people to do anything. Punishing bad behavior isn't as effective as encouraging good behavior. Bad behavior corrects only after people made the mistakes.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@dreamryder007 ·
* We have a problem of greed
Greed is good. Greed is not just about money ... life, love ect. (hint: people are into crypto to make $$$)
* This is a problem of culture
I disagree, name me another crypto that does or encourages even half the betterment initiatives  that steem has 
* Subsidize downvotes (cheaper downvotes, separated pool)
Worst idea for the long term growth of this platform. This would only encourage more censorship
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vote details (2)
@freebornangel ·
$0.27
@steemflagrewards is paying a return for downvoting,...
Just tag the bot, list the abuse from their list, and get an upvote bigger than your flag.
I've been doing it for months.
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vote details (4)
@quinneaker ·
$1.44
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@scammymcspambot ·
Smooth the Steemit Scammer.
๐Ÿ‘Ž  ,
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vote details (2)
@trafalgar · (edited)
$0.25
Yes I remember you were broadly in favor of 2/3 when I first mentioned these solutions in chat around 7 months ago. I'm glad we agree on this much

I doubt I can convince you of the benefits of slight superlinear, but I'm going to try. 

I feel that it's the centerpiece, or at least as important as the other two measures listed here. At the heart of what favors content indifferent voting in terms of profit maximization is that vote/sp is identical (roughly speaking) irrespective of where it's cast. Variation in reward for any given sp weighted vote is crucial to making it more difficult to mindlessly price votes for bid bots, favor good curation more, and generally helps content reflective voting behavior to out-compete content indifferent behavior.

It has the added benefit of forcing all profitable posts/comments into the light as rewards will likely need to be substantially high before they're 'profitable'. Similarly, it'll likely get rid of a decent amount of profit based comment spam as low payouts are generally not worth the vote invested. 

The curve can really be quite mild, maybe lower than n^1.3. It can even have a linear tail to prevent some form of large scale collusion among whales to pile on etc. Remember, ultimately the idea is to come up with a set of economic incentives that will allow individual voting behavior that provides the greatest returns to be not content agnostic, and therefore, add value to the protocol by having it actually function as a content discovery platform. I feel that with only greater downvote incentives alone in the form of X% separate downvotes, it won't be sufficient as there's still a risk to casting a downvote but no direct individual reward. Enticing it further would probably have the downsides of toxicity outweigh it's benefits.

'The idea is to use just enough of these measures...' I should clarify my statement here. I meant as most potential measures (superlinear, downvote incentives, higher curation) all have a cost, it's perhaps preferable to use a combination of different measures to a smaller extent than fewer measures to a greater extent. I can't prove it outright but I think that's less costly to the system overall. 

I think for projects that truly require a linear token, that's the perfect place for SMTs.

You're one of the most intelligent witnesses Smooth, and I wish we saw more eye to eye on this. Again I'll take 2/3 over nothing. But I just can't shake the feeling that if we keep linear, it'll always be an avenue that's subject to abuse no matter what other economic disincentives we build around it.
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vote details (8)
@teamsteem · (edited)
$0.16
Thanks to you @kevinwong and @trafalgar! I'm also convinced that linear rewards are fundamentally flawed. I plan on doing something about it and seeing your contribution really helped me go forward with my idea. 

I'm in favor of n^2 solely but I would support 50% curation if it could get us away from linear reward. 

Less than n^2, let's say n^1.5 is impractical according to @vandeberg 

[Source](https://steemit.com/steemit/@steemitblog/proposing-steem-equality-0-19-0-as-the-next-fork#@vandeberg/re-ats-david-re-personz-re-ats-david-re-steemitblog-proposing-steem-equality-0-19-0-as-the-next-fork-20170417t232548276z)
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@themonetaryfew ·
$0.15
I do agree with the way @exyle is looking at this. Until SMTs are launched, it's pretty much up to anybody how you want to mine you STEEM. You just want to collect as much STEEM as you can. Then, SMTs will allow for different projects and models to be tried and  "a thousand flowers can bloom". STEEM (power) will then just serve as the resources you need to power your (d)app on the Steem blockchain.

I agree with @exyle that the path where the Steem blockchain is going is pretty clear now, taking in account that SMTs will be successful.

Makes sense to me too! 
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@trafalgar ·
$0.15
can you elaborate on the ^1.5?

If you're talking about difficulties in implementation, I've heard from a very good source there are ways that you can code it efficiently like using the Taylor series

Also, we don't NEED n^1.5 or 1.3 or whatever, we just need something that crudely approximates it. So instead of a nice smooth upwards curve, picture 5 straight lines joined end to end with gradually increasing gradients. That's all we need in practice, it shouldn't be hard to implement.
๐Ÿ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@ura-soul ·
$0.23
If downvoting becomes free - in other words, it can be done without losing out on ability to upvote (self), then doesn't it mean that those with the most SP can suddenly not only upvote themselves the most but also downvote everyone else, the most - doubling their suck on the rewards pool? 

I support greater curation payouts, since clearly curation is basically broken currently.

I have proposed several solutions to the issue of bidbots and one of them appears to be very effective, but it hasn't been well spread through the network yet. Essentially, we add a 'voter mute' tool to the UIs to allow us to each be empowered to remove the effect of the votes from voters/users that we disagree with. This would mean that trending and hot lists would be custom tailored for each user and so we could all opt to, for example, remove the effect of bid bots from our trending lists.. Meaning that it would become much less desirable/functional to use bid bots. This is also empowering in the kind of way that Facebook empowers users to customise their newsfeed as they see fit.
I wrote on this [here](https://steempeak.com/steem/@ura-soul/bid-body-steem-s-achilles-heal-i-present-a-new-way-to-solve-the-bid-bot-issues-and-reinstate-proof-of-brain) in more detail.

I mentioned this to the developers of Steempeak and they have expressed interest in adding it to their feature set. The only challenge is in the processing overhead of processing the posts for each user, but if the posts are limited by time it might not be such a big deal to do on a central server (cluster).
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@freebornangel ·
$0.05
@steemflagrewards is paying a return on downvotes, simply tag the bot, list the abuse, get paid.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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@smooth ·
> If downvoting becomes free

Free, the sense that it does not reduce your ability to upvote. But still limited. You won't be able to go around and downvote everything just as you can't go around and upvote anything. The most obvious way to do this is for downvotes and upvotes to be separate pools of vote power/mana, rather than sharing the same pool.
๐Ÿ‘  
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@valued-customer ·
I appreciate deeply your highly rational analysis.  I feel the lack of additional value metrics to the economic prevents full exegesis and development of truly comprehensive rewards solutions for Steemit, just as the focus on finance alone does the real world of which Steemit is a microcosm.

SOC (SMTs, Oracles, and Communities) will provide a virtually unlimited suite of mechanisms for valuing social interactions, and potentiate extra-economic rewards that have been suppressed historically by a predatory class.  A paradigm shift is nascent, born with Steemit, that further development will bring to fruition, and I hope dearly that your insight and careful thought will be availed of those seeking to better value society and the rewards social interactions produce beyond mere finance.

There is a proscription that appears to operate in the West that precludes non-financial values from being considered, and reflecting on your comment makes it not only obvious, but glaring.  It is clear that folks seek those values and rewards - this is why we consider purely gaming the system for profit an inadequate mechanism - and such better minds as yours can grant far preferable understanding and make possible improved rewards mechanisms than we are presently endowed.

I look much forward to reading such thoughts as you may effect when you consider more than economic aspects of society, as the economy is sadly become practically the sole metric for measuring value.  My mother passed away last year, and no encomium can compensate me for that loss.  Society has so much and greater value than mere money.  I can hardly wait for minds like yours to wrap themselves around SOC and create new paradigms of valuation that might better Steemit, social media, and, indeed, our world.

Thanks!
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@tts ·
To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.
[![](https://s18.postimg.org/51o0kpijd/play200x46.png)](http://ec2-52-72-169-104.compute-1.amazonaws.com/kevinwong__understanding-steem-s-economic-flaw-its-effects-on-the-network-and-how-to-fix-it.mp3)
Brought to you by [@tts](https://steemit.com/tts/@tts/introduction). If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.
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@twinner ·
$0.69
Hi Kevin, I assume that some time after the introduction of SMTs the author/curation rewards in STEEM / SBD /SP will be removed from the blockchain protocol and will be replaced by a Steemit SMT. So new STEEM will only generated by the Witnesses, and STEEM will become a application centric "EOS-light". With this move plus the introduction of Oracles the Selfvoting and the Bidbots are gone, even Sell your vote is not longer possible, because Vote-Sellers are probably marked as bad actors in the Oracles. See also https://steemit.com/roadtosteemfest/@twinner/road-to-steemfest-some-thoughts-about-steem-the-steemfest-hattrick-raffle-inside
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong · (edited)
$0.11
Hi @twinner. The proposal above consist of very low cost changes for most impact, which was actually very important earlier this year to stay on top, but now Steemit has slipped away in web rankings. Maybe it's still not too late. It's just the content-indifference that could be fixed. SMTs also do not have tweaks for downvote pools, curation rewards, and only have n and n^2 without any ability to support stuff like n^1.3 - they may all be important features for token customization.

@trafalgar addressed the concerns about plans to wait for SMTs / GPTs / etc:-

> SMTs and Good Person Tokens will solve this - Problematic View
>
> Maybe. Don't get me wrong, I think SMTs are great. But they're 6 months away and in reality, it'll take far longer for any of them to garner sufficient market confidence to really play a role in the content discovery process. The use of Oracles also impose very high practical cost and a lot can go wrong in reality. Basically they're very far off and a lot needs to go right for them to work effectively. Something like n^1.3, 10% free downvotes and 50% curation is just a lot more direct and simpler and easier to implement. Ultimately we need the Steem base token to have a functional reward distribution too, not just SMTs, which are a big If.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@twinner ·
$0.49
Hi Kevin, short term I also support your ideas. Lift curation rewards to 75%, then there is no need to sell your vote or delegate to bidbots.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@valued-customer ·
I'm glad to see folks are considering these issues yet, and how best to resolve them.  

I find it interesting that many consider only the economic aspects of the issue, which is actually the source of the problem, and thus cannot be the solution.  Einstein said something along the lines of 'You cannot solve problems produced by a certain kind of thinking by using that kind of thinking.'  He said a lot of pithy stuff, but perhaps Hendrix said it better:  'There will be peace when the power of love exceeds the love of power.'

Steemit is social media, and the economic aspects of society are not the entirety of it's worth.  Most, by far, of the value of society isn't economic at all, and it is focusing only on finance that so warps Steemit and the real world alike.  Stake-weighting is the mechanism by which finance is become practically the only meaningful aspect of society.  

Mike Tyson said that Don King would sell his mother for a dollar, and there are people that would do that.  Is that a good trade?  Is that truly profitable to the seller?  No.  In order to consider that trade profitable, all the benefits and social value a mother imparts would have to be valued at less than a dollar, and far less, because there's marketing costs to consider.  

While the economic incentives you note are indeed faulty and need repairs, even perhaps those you and @trafalgar propose, the reason they are extant is that more important social values are neglected in favor of finance.  

I expect that SOC (SMTs, Oracles, and Communities) will allow many experimental mechanisms of valuing the social interactions we undertake online, and that many of us will be surprised at the success of communities more focused on far more valuable social matters than mere finance.  Certainly this will not be entirely rational, and the extensive indoctrination affecting us all won't simply vanish into thin air, but the reality of actual value will be far more attainable with SOC than presently, or ever before in history.

In many ways Steemit is a microcosm of the world, and the real world is infested with banksters whose superpower is rapine financial skulduggery.  This will not always be so, and folks that invest in more valuable properties than mammon and lucre will reap rewards of more substantive returns.

You skirt this matter in your post, as you note that purely financial incentives don't achieve those goals you feel are actually desirable, yet don't note what values are actually more important than mere profit.  Economic exchange is valuable and necessary, but has been distorted horribly by predators for their personal profit, and society needs to fix that problem, not just Steemit.

SOC will be the transformative mechanism that enables rational valuation of human interaction for the first time in history.  To say I am eager for the opportunity is a gross understatement.  I encourage you and folks generally to give even a moments thought to what values are actually able to be transferred and exchanged in society other than financial, in the hope that our paradigm shift that is nascent and incipient in Steemit might be better understood and attained as better minds than mine parse and effect it.

Thanks!
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@vanddy ·
Truly agree! I wish if this could be brought into the limelight of Steem Fest!
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@vikisecrets ·
Very interesting proposals, would be cool to experiment with those ideas, like on a testnet or by having an alternative frontend that simulates rewards under these new parameters. I think some may help but I am afraid abuse and greed will never be completely fixable. Bidbots will adapt to the new rules.
๐Ÿ‘  
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@vikisecrets ·
Anonymous flagging also sounds interesting and worth giving a try. Now nobody dares to flag because of the risk of flagwars.
๐Ÿ‘  
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vote details (1)
@vimukti-ananda ·
@kevingwong, thanks a lot for such a detailed analysis and initiation of meaningful discussion on this subject which can't be ignored by perhaps all the SteemIt participants. personally I've got a clue or two regarding things work in here and the current state of affair and most importantly perspectives.

>It's my wish that more community members around here take notice about this problem and solution. If you're convinced, please make some noise about it. 

yes, I agree. thus I've decide to resteem this your post. also trying to make my own "noise" as you put it. let's see what will come out of that...

There is one central essential point somehow missing in your entire article: INVESTING. (Ctrl+F search gave only 1 single result in your main text: "<i>investor-types</i>")
I have elaborated on it further [here](https://steemit.com/steemit/@vimukti-ananda/ocean-world-of-steemit-ecosystem-votes-farming-and-content-indifference-in-fish-farm)

also many thanks to all who contributed to discussion here and special thanks to @trafalgar ! :)

will definitely follow your other discussions on this matter.
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@wews ·
Please help this *Blue Baby Patient*, **Laine Kharece** by upvoting the link below. This is not a scam, we just need your support as part of steemit community. Thank you very much for reading and extending a little help.
![.jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmWfHneEyKnkTpb4prSa21nBBm9mFWPjLfnBG7CBGGRZhJ/.jpg)
https://steemit.com/upfundme/@wews/steemit-help-a-blue-baby-patient
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@whatsup ·
$0.14
I support increasing curation rewards, but not in combination with non-linear rewards.

I'm neutral on the flagging incentives.

I don't think anything will help as long as our largest stakeholder do not understand the difference between stacking coins and building a business.  They continue to confuse the goals of building value with stacking the number of coins.

Too many stakeholders are confusing altruism with building value.  

If we combine a non-linear with increased curation, the result will be auto-voting to those we expect to earn the most and even less curation.

Personally, I am starting to think the lack of distribution combined with limited business experience within the large stake-holders is a fatal flaw.
๐Ÿ‘  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@spectrumecons ·
$0.05
>If we combine a non-linear with increased curation, the result will be auto-voting to those we expect to earn the most and even less curation.

Even with 'linear' rewards, many are front-running bots to maximum their curation rewards. If increasing curation rewards to 50% can convince the largest stakeholders to undelegate from bots, front-running is going to be more difficult. Whale accounts can also counter front-running by voting exactly on 15 minutes for their regular favourites. 

I am quite disappointed regarding the focus of many of the large stakeholders on accumulating Steem rather than increasing the price Steem by promoting content new users would actually want to enjoy. If we assume a constant market cap, vote selling is only going to produce 10% annual ROI at best. Attracting new investment could do that in a day.
๐Ÿ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@holybranches ·
>50% can convince the largest stakeholders to undelegate from bots

RT
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@yonny ·
$0.17
It seems entirely possible to me that the cryptocrash has caused the community to become selfish in order to recover from the mass losses. I hope the market returns soon and brings out the kindness and compassion we had in 2017
๐Ÿ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@kevinwong ·
The economic incentives are flawed. People will always be people.
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@zeeshanrai ·
WOW ITS GREAT INFORMATION
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