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View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com
· @remlaps · (edited)
$3.12
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vote details (81)
@baah ·
$0.05
>I've said before that I'm not a fan of downvotes, and to the best of my knowledge, no one has shown that their benefits outweigh their harm.

The initial price rally from the slump of 6 cent Winter in '17 was correlated very nicely with the Whale Experiment (where a majority of whales agreed to not vote and others agreed to downvote any votes that were deemed to big). In my opinion the Whale Experiment was an Unequivocal success in demonstrating that downvotes are Essential to the platform and their power, views that I am sure many people hold as well because they too saw that a few whales and some downvotes could create a meaningful impact and effectively increase the average vote by 10x, giving value to Powering Up, as was first hypothesized,  and the community was declaring this success long before the price did finally rally, but you don't have to take my word for it, it's all there in the chain. Seek and Ye sHaLl FiNd

> If I were a whale with a lack of ethical inhibitions, I might use downvotes in a cycle where phase I would be to aggressively and visibly - with great fanfare - downvote people and chase them away in order to drive down the price of steem so I could buy low, then phase II would be to let the price drift back up in the absence of flag-wars, at which point I could sell high and repeat the process.

Because Flags are a net negative. Every flag that drives people away redistributes the rewards to others who would likely blow up in the vacuum you created. Steem Power prevails.
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vote details (4)
@remlaps ·
I was there for the whale experiment.  It ran from [March 2017](/@abit/whales-no-up-voting-test) to HF19, which was in June/2017.  Well before most of the price run-up. Also, as I recall, the whole point of that experiment was to simulate the linear reward curve, which HF21/22 just removed because of community dissatisfaction, so it's not clear how informative that experiment really was.  The price rally in winter '17 was also correlated with BTC at 20K, which I think was far more relevant.  As this chart from Yahoo finance shows, the price rise seemed to have little to do with the whale experiment.  The whole crypto market was up.

![image.png](https://files.steempeak.com/file/steempeak/remlaps/Z1eTZ0eS-image.png)

You're right about flags redistributing rewards, but that doesn't necessarily make up for the psychological effect that flags have on people.  It's pure speculation to suggest that the positive and negative emotions are in balance.  In general, people prioritize loss avoidance over pursuing benefits (coincidentally, I just read an article on this.  See link #2 [here](/@remlaps-lite/curating-the-internet-science-and-technology-digest-for-november-15-2019)  ).

Anyway, that wasn't the point of that item.  I agree that we can't eliminate downvotes without implementing a different reward mechanism to incentivize self-regulation of voting strength, and it certainly wouldn't be a good idea to experiment with that on the main Steem blockchain now.  It'll have to wait 'til SMTs or steem-engine tokens (or some other chain) can experiment with other reward algorithms.  I specifically acknowledged that I'm in the minority and downvotes are here to stay.  The point of that item was to merely to suggest moderation as a norm when downvoting over reward disagreement.
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@baah ·
$0.09
The price run from spring/summer '17 is what I was referring to and the point of the experiment *was* to simulate a linear reward curve **in order to entice people to vest/power up**, which is why it was a success and what makes me think that steem blowing up from 6 cents was due to that *simulation*. 
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vote details (4)
@bearbear613 ·
Your post has been curated by the bitcoin myk project. Tokens are available for this account you can trade for steem at: https://steem-engine.com/. Join our curation priority list to earn more tokens by registering at:

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@chelsea88 ·
$0.09
I enjoyed the read and never thought of the difference between steemizens & steemians. Lots of interesting points here.  Resteemed.
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vote details (4)
@remlaps ·
Thanks for the feedback and the resteem.  I'm glad you liked it.
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@chelsea88 ·
Of course! I just hate i caught it 6 days later
 My bad.
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@joe.public ·
$0.06
Hey I only found your post today :   ( 
I really love it. 

I sincerely hope the issue of flags is not closed. 
To me, it is a pathetic way to carry on, and all this talk about disagreement regarding rewards is pure bullshit.  :   ) 
The only motivation for this carry on is childish playground domination strategy. The amusing aspect of that does not escape me :   )  and i am sure you derive some amusement from it as well. 

I think the only hope we have is for the price of Steem to plummet too 1 or 2 Cents NZD 

When that happens, hopefully it will give the true Steemizen's the wake up call required to give the Thugs, wannabe rulers and NSA agents of Steemit the flick for ever.

If the price did fall that low i may even be tempted to revert to our original plan. 
That is what I hope for anyway so don't tell anyone.
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vote details (5)
@remlaps ·
Thanks for the feedback!  I actually think that most of the downvotes are well-intentioned.  To me, the problem is mostly in the way people perceive them.  We can tell people not to take it personally until we're blue  in the face, but it still feels personal to most people.

The other side to that, though, is that there needs to be some other incentive (like a second price auction style of mechanism) penalizing people for overvaluing a post and encouraging people to vote honestly.  IMO, the last two years proved that you can't just disable downvotes - without any other changes - and expect that posts are going to be ranked in any sort of rational manner.
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@joe.public ·
$0.08
Thanks for your thoughtful response @remlaps.

We are being herded like cattle to use Steemit as a blogging platform exclusively. 
This is the least interesting use for the blockchain imho.
The reason they want this is obvious, if it is just a blogging platform and is the only way value is created they can sell the false notion of ''over valuation''

The most interesting use for Steem imho is real world community projects where we can reward people for actions taken in the real world. For that to occur we need to change some things.

Change the way the top twenty witnesses are selected. Stake based witness selection is clearly not working. I could go into a long rant with that one.
and remove flags altogether just for starters.  

This place is way more powerful than just a place to blog. 

and as far as flags being primarily about posts being over rewarded, why is every comment I make flagged ? it is clearly not about the large rewards I recieve!

In fact I have been told by several people that i am on ''THE LIST'' not to receive any rewards. The fact that their is actually a list that people obediently follow should tip people off that there is a Chain of Command operating here which has it own agenda
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vote details (5)
@joeyarnoldvn ·
$0.09
I disagree with number eight if you're trying to say that there is such a thing as bad publicity which a link could provide. I quote people. I include a link. I do this all the time. It is like a commercial. Ronald McDonald performs at birthday parties for free. Because marketing is valuable. That is what a link is. In other words, a link is a plug. It is valuable. That is why companies pay millions of dollars for ad time on television, on YouTube, on billboards, etc, as opposed to television shows giving the corporations money.
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@remlaps ·
Thanks for the reply!  On number 8, I'm not referring to bad publicity.  Basically, I just mean that people should get credited for their work and ideas.  For an example of what I mean, you can look at the beneficiary settings for cited authors in any of the posts from my daily [Science & technology digest](/@remlaps-lite/curating-the-internet-science-and-technology-digest-for-november-19-2019) series.

You're right that linking to someone can be valuable, so if it's just a mention, and my sole intention is to draw attention to someone's post, then maybe I don't need to assign a beneficiary for them.  But if I'm harnessing their creativity and using it to draw rewards for myself, then I think that a beneficiary setting is appropriate.  I guess there is a sort-of a grey area as to exactly how much incorporation of ideas is enough to merit reward sharing.
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@joeyarnoldvn · (edited)
$0.09
# Slippery Slope: 
That grey area concerns me. 

# Intellectual Theft? 
Also, the desire to require people to pay for what might be intellectual theft is dangerous. 

# Disney Theft 
For example, allegedly, according to a book, it is said that Walt Disney stole art from his business partner around the 1920's or so. Walt went on to copyright, to patent, his work. 

# Dangerous 
So, I say that to say that some of these things can be dangerous. 

# Weird Al Robbery 
Now, Weird Al would make parodies of famous songs. He has said that he doesn't even have to ask people for permission. Now, he says he does out of courtesy. But he is right that he doesn't have to.

# Google Wars
But, currently, YouTube (Google) and others have been attacking people who have made parodies themselves (and other things as well).

# Fair Use Act 
Parodies and other things may in fact be completely or partly protected under the Fair Use Act in American law for example (depending on the piece, video, details, etc). 

# I Lost Thousands of Videos 
Google terminated three of my YouTube channels which means I lost thousands of videos which goes back to 1996. 

# Copyright 
Copyright can be tough to enforce. 

# Selective Enforcement 
What is worse is when copyright is selectively enforced. Sometimes, in life, one person will come up with what he or she may think is an original idea. Plagiarism is a tricky debate. It is more than a subject and more a subjective war between what might be recycled, reused, stolen, echoed, parodied, and Epstein didn't kill himself. 

# Nothing New Under Dee Sun? 
King Solomon said that there is nothing new under sun around three thousand years ago. For example, if I ask you, "HOW ARE YOU?" Then what? How dare you says Greta, just kidding.

# How Are You?
Is the adaptation or the reusing of idioms, common phrases, etc, then theft, etc? Can I ask you how you are? Am I not stealing that phrase? Should I give credit to whoever first said "How are you?" Because other people asked that question. Maybe that is an exception to the rule. But we can debate these types of things all day. 

# Speeches
Like speeches for example. Like songs that talk about love. And then you have another song that talks about love as well. 

# Star Wars & Star Trek Spam? 
Then you have JJ Abrams who might be recycling some of his own ideas or that of other people as he did Star Trek and as he is doing Star Wars right now. 

# Piracy? 
Pirated videos may or may not be a crime. The actual process of getting it in the first place for example might be a crime, some might say. However, watching pirated videos shouldn't be a crime or isn't, technically. Also, the 4th amendment (privacy) is being violated.

# Connecting Dots
But I digress. I see connections and similarities between many different things. I'm connecting dots. I'm going down original oatmeal rabbit trails. So, I say that to say that people may steal things from other people. Sometimes, it is accidental. 

# Purposely, Maliciously? 
Now, it can be tough to prove when intellectual property is stolen on purpose, perhaps maliciously even.

# Being Sued 
A person, later on, may still get sued or attacked for allegedly stealing the ideas from other people. Some of this can be way too subjective. 

# Invisible Lines
The subjective line between what might be new and what might be not new is so vague like you said. 

# Compensate 
It is nice when people can pay people for helping. 

# Generosity 
So, if you helped me, then I should send you some money. True. Perhaps. I should not be required. But that would be generous of me. 

# Money
However, money is not the only kind of money, by the way. Time is money. Good publicity has value as well. Cryptocurrencies has value as well. Gold has value. Salt was used as money centuries ago. So many things can be used as currency. Marketing is valuable. The list goes on and on.

# Make Government Smaller
People should try to link to their sources and pay them some money as well, perhaps. That would be nice. However, these things should not be required by federal or international laws. Local laws (for example), maybe in some cases to some extent. But for the most part, federally and globally, I prefer smaller government. So, copyrights, patents, trademarks, etc, can be better enforced/etc as government grows bigger and bigger in a pursuit to keep people allegedly safe through the means of stealing freedom from humans. 

# Conclusion
So, I agree with you that people should try their best to credit people as much as possible, verbally and financially. So, both is good. In some cases, financial compensation may be earned, collected, gathered, etc, directly and indirectly via verbal citation as marketing has value for example.
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vote details (5)
@naturalmedicine ·
$0.10
Hey! Steemizen makes sense. Many awesome ideas here. Bookmarking. I really appreciate the thought that has gone into this and agree with most of it.... @riverflows (too tired to switch acccounts)
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@remlaps ·
Thank you for the reply!  I am happy that you found it worthwhile to bookmark.
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@qwerrie ·
$0.05
intresting, added to my memories to read it carefully later. awesome post, up!
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vote details (4)
@remlaps ·
Thanks.  I appreciate the feedback!
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@sexycarmen ·
Maybe I should try to minimize the internet use and spend some time with friends and this applies to minors too. Because it is important to have your children to be always monitored especially in the internet for there are many cyberhackers in the internet and everyone should be warned about this.
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@theramraja ·
Excellent Comments
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tts ·
To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.
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Brought to you by [@tts](https://steemit.com/tts/@tts/introduction). If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.
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@whatsup ·
$0.10
What an excellent and thoughtful list.

I think you have my 90% agreement.
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@remlaps ·
$0.02
I appreciate the feedback! I hope other readers are similarly agreeable. ; -)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@zuerich ·
$0.12
An upvote for my fellow steemizen.
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@remlaps ·
; -) Thank you for reading it!
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