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HF21: SPS and EIP Explained by steemitblog

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· @steemitblog · (edited)
HF21: SPS and EIP Explained
![SPS EIP Details.jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmZvteHBQ6ui6WPA2ap8cyXEEEjMnnciGHjvVR2rYXeeVc/SPS%20EIP%20Details.jpg)

Hello Steemians, [yesterday we announced the release of the code for Hardfork 21](https://steemit.com/steemit/@steemitblog/steemit-update-hf21-testnet-sps-eip-rewards-api-smts) so that public testing may commence. This release candidate includes the Steem Proposal System (a/k/a SteemDAO) along with a long-term funding solution, and the Economic Improvement Proposal (EIP). In this post we want to go into more detail about the code we submitted relating to these two features. These changes are quite technical, and we’re sure people will have even more questions. We invite you to include those questions in the comments section below so that we can answer them in future posts. 

<h1>The SteemDAO/SPS</h1>

The SteemDAO was a concept proposed by @blocktrades to allow Steem users to publicly propose work they are willing to do in exchange for pay. Steem users can then vote on these proposals in almost the same way they vote for witnesses It uses stake-weighted votes, but voters can vote for as many proposals as they want. 

Steemit paid $50k USD to @blocktrades for the development of the SteemDAO. Once approved, and after enough time has transpired so as to demonstrate the security and stability of the system (about 1-2 weeks of operation), Steemit will provide initial, one-time funding, by converting 200k STEEM to SBD which will allow the market to test this new feature. 

<h1>Long-Term SteemDAO Funding</h1>

At the request of the Witnesses, we have included code in this release that would add a long term funding mechanism for the SteemDAO/SPS. If this hardfork is accepted by the Witnesses, 10% of overall inflation (pulled from the rewards pool) would be used to fund proposals made through the SteemDAO/SPS. 

<h1>Decentralization & Sustainability</h1>

It is important for the long term sustainability and growth of the Steem ecosystem that there be a decentralized mechanism for incentivizing the development of projects that will add long term value to Steem. Those projects can take the form of development efforts, marketing efforts, or anything else. Steem’s Proof-of-Brain algorithm was not designed to incentivize projects with long gestation periods and which require significant upfront capital expenditures. This was why @blocktrades proposed adding the SPS/SteemDAO to Steem and why Steemit agreed to fund that development. 
<h3>Funding Valuable Initiatives</h3>
While we have agreed to provide some funding to the SPS, our resources are inherently finite. That means that the SteemDAO would, by definition, be unsustainable if Steemit were the only funding mechanism. This was essentially the argument that the majority of Steem Witnesses made to us, and we agreed. @blocktrades has used their experience with previous chains and worker proposal systems to design a system that should be very good at allocating resources to projects that Steem stakeholders believe will add tremendous value to the Steem blockchain, thereby benefiting all Steem stakeholders. Think of the SteemDAO as a decentralized tanker of rocket fuel that can be used to pour fuel into high-potential projects so that they can take flight. But if the SteemDAO has no fuel in its tanks, it can’t do its job. 

As far as why the funding for the SteemDAO is coming out of the Rewards Pool, that was ultimately a decision that was made by the Witnesses, and we agree that it is an acceptable solution to the problem. The Rewards Pool is not shrinking, it is being updated so that it can reward a *wider variety of creators* (including developers, marketing firms, influencers, etc.) so that *even more* value can be added to the ecosystem, which benefits everyone. 

<h1>Economic Improvement Proposal</h1>

At the request of the Witnesses, we have included code in this release that would implement economic changes which alter the incentive mechanisms to be better aligned with rewarding high-quality content. [Last month we publicly voiced our support for a proposal that had been presented by multiple members of the community](https://steemit.com/steem/@steemitblog/improving-the-economics-of-steem-a-community-proposal) and which aligned with certain suggestions we had made in the past relating to a convergent linear rewards curve. 

Shortly after starting the conversation, the Witnesses came to a consensus in support of adding the improvements to the upcoming hardfork. For that reason we have added essentially 3 elements to the hardfork which we are referring to as the “EIP.”

1. [A convergent linear rewards curve](https://steemit.com/steem/@vandeberg/reward-curve-deep-dive)
2. [A separate downvote mana pool](https://steemit.com/steem/@vandeberg/downvote-pool-deep-dive)
3. Increasing the curation rewards to equal the author rewards

We believe that these three changes, when packaged together, will shift the behavior of Steem Power holders in a positive way. Under these changes self-voting and bidbot usage will become less profitable than curating good content. While on paper author rewards are reduced, and curation rewards increased, we believe these changes will make it easier for good content to be discovered and rewarded, simply because that type of positive curation behavior will become more profitable under the EIP. 

The net effect over time will be that more rewards go to good authors. Users should also spend more time curating content rather than voting for themselves or delegating out their power to bidbots because it will be more profitable for them to do so. 

<h1>Convergent Linear Rewards Curve</h1>

While we can’t know for certain how these changes will affect the system, we do know how the system is behaving now and there is consensus that the system is functioning sub-optimally. Our decision to use the constant 2e12 in the new rewards curve is based on the desire to not change the system *too* much (because we know that the system still functions), while trying to make modifications that reduce undesired behaviors. In other words, the 2e12 is more similar to the existing linear rewards curve than either 2e11 or 2e13. The relevant behaviors are at the ends of the curve. For the majority of the curve, the payouts are nearly identical to a linear rewards curve. 

<h1>Separate Downvote Mana Pool</h1>

Under the EIP, you will be able to render a certain number of downvotes for free (i.e. without reducing your voting mana). The way this works is that the Steem blockchain protocol looks at 25% of your voting mana and calculates how many downvotes that would grant you. Under the current system, the moment you started downvoting your voting mana would go down. Under the proposed system, Steem would basically ignore those downvotes with respect to your voting mana. 

Your voting mana won't diminish, which means you can use that mana to reward more content. Once you use up those downvotes, if you continue to render downvotes, those will once again consume voting mana. This is an important mechanism for regulating abusive downvoting, but by making a percentage of user’s downvotes free, this will lead to more users downvoting detrimental content. 

Here are two pie charts which illustrate how Steem’s yearly inflation is distributed now, and how it will be distributed after the changes.

Before: 

![Screen Shot 2019-06-19 at 3.02.20 PM.png](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmQh5Te51MWKRBzbZqfGHJHvYztNiraybTYLa7QjZDubd7/Screen%20Shot%202019-06-19%20at%203.02.20%20PM.png)

After:

![Screen Shot 2019-06-19 at 3.02.39 PM.png](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmVe4pgTyir4WnwdwwSQttUTqCJsZ26SwzGYjevbj58bjT/Screen%20Shot%202019-06-19%20at%203.02.39%20PM.png)

<h1>The Witnesses</h1>

While we agree that all of the changes requested by the Witnesses represent a positive step for the Steem blockchain, it is ultimately up to them whether this hardfork is approved, and they serve at the discretion of you all: the Steem stakeholders. Steemit, Inc. and its representatives do not, *and will not*, leverage our stake to influence this decision. Therefore, if you feel that your Witnesses are not representing your interests then we urge you to exercise the rights granted to you by this decentralized platform to elect Witnesses that you believe will represent your interests.

That being said, with respect to Hardfork 21, we found that the Witnesses you have elected acted rationally and responsibly, working together to develop solutions and come to a consensus on changes to make Steem a better place for everyone, while setting the stage for Smart Media Tokens. 

<h1>Prepare!</h1>

Don't forget, if these plans do move forward, you will soon be able to submit proposals to the Steem blockchain. So start getting them ready! 

_The Steemit Team_
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@abh12345 ·
$0.25
And for the 'normies' like me: https://steemit.com/normietalk/@justineh/normie-talk-hf21-explained-sps-eip-what-it-is-and-what-happens-next
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vote details (5)
@dana-edwards · (edited)
Very good post, much better than this one here. I think you explained the potential value of SPS. My concern remains though how do you distinguish between an idea which is likely to be profitable for the ecosystem and an idea which merely receives a lot of votes but which is a "bridge to no where". 

How are the votes going to be calculated first of all? Do whale accounts get to rig the vote? Can whale accounts somehow be excluded? Do verified accounts get to vote exclusively or do accounts of a certain age get higher weight in the vote? If it's stake weighted alone then I think you can see what can happen here.

It's going to take a lot of discipline, planning, discussion, on how to rank/rate ideas. My suggestion is we need a way to try and determine how much value or profit an idea can generate for the ecosystem. Such as does it have potential to increase the value of the Steem token? 

- If two ideas accomplish the same thing equally but one of them burns Steem tokens and another does not then do we prefer the one which burns tokens?

- If two ideas accomplish the same goal but one of them does so in a way which can bring in lots of revenue or investors then should we favor that one? 

- What metrics do we track to determine the success or failure?
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vote details (1)
@abh12345 · (edited)
$0.11
Well this is @justineh's work, I can't take any credit but thought it was worth linking as they appeared at almost the same time.

Personally, I believe we are already on that bridge to nowhere and so almost anything *should* be an improvement.

There are a lot of 'ifs' though.  If bot-boosted shit content is downvoted, perhaps stake will come out of the bots to curate as there will be less profit there, and a greater % of inflation heads towards curators.

> How are the votes going to be calculated first of all? 

Umm, same as before?

> Do whale accounts get to rig the vote? 

Potentially?

> Can whale accounts somehow be excluded? 

Not in this proposal, and likely never.

> Do verified accounts get to vote exclusively or do accounts of a certain age get higher weight in the vote?

Nope.


I see some of these changes as much larger/more radical than what is being proposed - something for palnet-type efforts/SMT's to test?
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vote details (2)
@abitcoinskeptic ·
$0.06
HF21 comes in like a wrecking ball.
All these are okay on their own. However a 10% cut + 25% more for curation + 2e13 = around 2.19 times more sp required for a vote worth  around 1sp to an author. In otherwords my vote is  now worth ~ 46% unless I only vote on people already getting huge payouts or join a whale pool.
I think we need to talk more about the combined effects and less about the individual changes that make sense in isolation.
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@ainsleyjo1952 ·
I can see that I have a lot to learn here and wouldn't even know where to begin when it comes to discussing this.  So, I will lurk.  This is an excellent article but I have to admit to only barely understanding some parts of it now -- while other parts of it are within my range of understanding.

All I know is that I still believe in and endorse what you're hoping to achieve here.
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@ajayyy ·
One good idea that keeps going around: Why not take from witness rewards and make the remaining witness rewards a proposal in the SPS system? Then the funding amount does NOT have to be fixed.
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@jondoe ·
That actually makes a lot of sense since their costs are fixed in USD.
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vote details (3)
@arcange ·
Congratulations @steemitblog!
Your post was mentioned in the [Steem Hit Parade](/hit-parade/@arcange/daily-hit-parade-20190619) in the following category:

* Comments - Ranked 4 with 113 comments
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@bashadow ·
$0.12
> Steemit paid $50k USD to @blocktrades for the development of the SteemDAO. Once approved, and after enough time has transpired so as to demonstrate the security and stability of the system (about 1-2 weeks of operation), Steemit will provide initial, one-time funding, by converting 200k STEEM to SBD which will allow the market to test this new feature.

And if the security and stability fail what will happen then? Will the SBD be reconverted to Steem, or just thrown away?

> At the request of the Witnesses, we have included code in this release that would add a long term funding mechanism for the SteemDAO/SPS. If this hardfork is accepted by the Witnesses, 10% of overall inflation (pulled from the rewards pool) would be used to fund proposals made through the SteemDAO/SPS.

And if the Security and stability do not pan out will this be immediately HardForked out or will the funds be diverted to something else?

> This was why @blocktrades proposed adding the SPS/SteemDAO to Steem and why Steemit agreed to fund that development.

Steemit agreed, as has been pointed out over and over and over again when ever Steem and Steemit are bought up it is that they are different and not the same entity. Did Busy.org, partiko, eSteem, and the others agree to fund blocktrades? The witnesses protect the Blockchain Steem,that means all users of the blockchain, and all organizations on the blockchain come under their umbrella of protection. That includes busy.org, partiko, eSteem, and other forms and methods of accessing steem blockchain, not just **steemit**.

This is a lot in one post, so since it is an explanation post can you elaborate on what will happen to SPS if blocktrades is unable to provide the needed security and stability?
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vote details (2)
@blocktrades · (edited)
Probably there is some misunderstanding about what they were refering to by security/stability here. It's not about any service that we provide. I think they are just referring to the possibility that there is some bug in the SPS code. It's been tested by us (and reviewed by Steemit Inc as well) and I have no expectation that there will be any security bug of significance. But if such a bug was found, it would just be a matter of fixing it. I think all they mean is that they don't want to have it handle too much funds until it's proven safe by usage in the real world.
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vote details (1)
@andrarchy ·
Yes, that is exactly right. Thanks @blocktrades for clarifying that
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@thedegensloth ·
It will be rolled back, anytime anything doesn't work it can be rolled back, forked out or a fix will be made as soon as the issue is discovered.
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@valued-customer ·
And when has any HF that produced horrible unexpected consequences been rolled back?  Not in the two years I've been here, IIRC.  Without intentional preparation to do exactly that if things turn out poorly, I don't expect such a rollback to occur.
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vote details (3)
@valued-customer ·
Steemit and other substantial stakeholders mined Steem prior to Steemit being public.  They remain the holders of the vast majority of Steem today.  Busy, Partiko, eSteem, and other front ends did not participate in the ninjamine, and therefore do not have that 'free' stake to invest, as does Steemit.
👍  
👎  ,
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vote details (3)
@iflagtrash ·
It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.<br><br>PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.
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@bigbot ·
$0.04
## Could you please tell me why you delay SMT once again how long we wait for smt and check steem price in satoshi why you not control his price why steem value dropping continuously ?????????????????????
👍  
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vote details (1)
@blockchainstudio · (edited)
Is 50:50 not fixed yet? One thing I really don't understand is that steemitblog's posts didn't include the exact ratio twice in a row. Are you also hesitant about this change?

This kind of change should be done at the SMT level. I think the main purpose of this is to keep holders who're trying to leave. Eventually ad-revenue sharing with authors is a must. Currently, Steemit requests holders to pay authors, which has been proven to be not sustainable. That's why many holders are leaving and Steemit is trying to give a myopic incentive to them.

ps. Due to several combined changes, you will not know which result is due to which change. 
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@bluefinstudios ·
Missing some great Commentary:

https://steemit.com/community/@dreemsteem/perhaps-we-need-to-speak-as-one

https://steemit.com/hardfork/@dreemsteem/now-you-can-see-the-numbers
👍  
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vote details (1)
@bluefinstudios ·
Where are the Top Consensus Views?

https://steemit.com/dpoll/@shadowspub/poll-for-the-wtinesses-on-hf21
👍  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@cheva ·
$0.03
I think the EIP doesn't make sense. the most important now is to attract more new users into steem. This proposal doesn't seems newbies friendly. the author reward is too low, new comers can't benefit from the increase curation reward since they have little steem power. This only benefit the old big whale. And the only purpose of EIP is to discover 'good content'. but only the few  large SP holders can do that. It's a paradox. Good content for someone, may means nothing for majority. And most importantly, steem is a currency not a blog platform. the value of a currency is coming from consensus of people. The more people join in the more value a currency have. "good content"obviously not a good thing to make consensus, since different people have different appetite. Wrap up. This proposal simply about how to distribution interest. our Chinese have a saying" make big cake first, then discuss how to divide the cake".Look at the price of steem. is the cake big enough to be divided? Hope this proposal to be rejected.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/cheva)
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@angeltirado ·
I totally agree with you, the new ones never.  It will benefit them and as they will always leave, what they will bring is that they will finish killing what little life is left of the platform.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@ew-and-patterns ·
$1.45
If the steem ecosystem would be somehow destroyed, who would lose the most? The whales. Who are most of the whales? The top 20 witnesses.
 I think it's safe to say that especially the whales have a huge interest in the steem ecosystem being able to grow BIG over time. And that is only possible if the userbase grows and if the new users are able to make their cut. They know this fact. 
Maybe this new proposal benefits them them most in the short term, but they also face the biggest risk of ultimately loosing hundreds of thousands of dollars of their investment.

So assuming they want to screw the average joe for maximizing their profits makes no sense, because this is not possible. If they fuck it up, the price will be 5 cents in just a few weeks without ever recovering. Nobody wants that.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@ew-and-patterns ·
$1.46
If the steem ecosystem would be somehow destroyed, who would lose the most? The whales. Who are most of the whales? The top 20 witnesses.
 I think it's safe to say that especially the whales have a huge interest in the steem ecosystem being able to grow BIG over time. And that is only possible if the userbase grows and if the new users are able to make their cut. They know this fact. 
Maybe this new proposal benefits them them most in the short term, but they also face the biggest risk of ultimately loosing hundreds of thousands of dollars of their investment.

So assuming they want to screw the average joe for maximizing their profits makes no sense, because this is not possible. If they fuck it up, the price will be 5 cents in just a few weeks without ever recovering. Nobody wants that.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@cre47iv3 ·
Hoping to new networks come then.

Thanks for nothing. Always thinking how big guys can earn, and what whales call "good content" then just fuck everyone else.

Steemit.inc descentralized corporativism.
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@cryptogee ·
>Increasing the curation rewards to equal the author rewards

So clicking a button or setting an autovoter takes as much skill, sweat, and effort as creating a post?

Ridiculous.

[*Cg*](https://steemit.com/@cryptogee)
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@howo ·
So earning enough money to have a significant amount of sp (let's say 10-50k) is easier than creating a post ?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@cryptogee ·
Not everyone who clicks on the vote button has invested $10-$50k... However I see your point.

Put it this way, without content, there is nothing to vote on.

[*Cg*](https://steemit.com/@cryptogee)
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@onthewayout · (edited)
I have to disagree with your position. Buying the stake that backs up the vote does cost in real life (or at least it should) and keeping your resources staked also has opportunity costs. There must be some balance and right now we have a 3 to 1 ratio in favor of author rewards vs voting. Content creation does not carry the financial risk of losing the value of an investment. A 50/50 split seems fair in my view as long as the right content is rewarded.

What I am not in favor of is reducing the rewards pool to fund the SPS, the funding should come from the portion of the inflation that is allocated to SP *"interest"*. As a stakeholder am willing to forgo that income stream if it goes to projects that end up increasing the value of my holdings. According to some witnesses [they are discussing that option](https://steem.tokenbb.io/topics/thecryptodrive/tokenbb-topic-sps-inflation-funding-split-prop-1560906423422) (and I hope they give it a serious consideration).
👍  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
While buying stake would be a useful contribution, the vast majority of stake was simply mined by those that have it now, and they use it to extract rewards from the pool by casting huge votes with that unpurchased stake.  I'm not aware that any of the 35 whales on Steem now bought 1 satoshi of that stake.  They extract ~90% of the rewards content creators make possible anyway.  Content creators receive but ~10% of rewards.

I don't agree that SPS requires any mandatory funding.  If proposals can't attract funding due to their virtues, that's a damn good reason not to fund them.  The whole idea of the tax is simply to force funding of proposals by making it too complex to prevent bad proposals that no one would pay for otherwise from being not funded.  Ancillary is that the tax being based on content creators rewards makes all the funding come from creators and none from the whales, while the whales will receive the vast majority of any increase in value such funding generates.  It's a regressive tax on the poor and 90% of the financial benefits of that tax will go to the rich.

That's just an asshole move in my book.
👍  
👎  ,
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vote details (3)
@smooth ·
Nope, it doesn't, and in an ideal world we might just go right ahead and give 100% to authors.

But in the real world we need a system with sound economics in order for authors to be rewarded at all and that _requires_ the curation share to be higher (indeed maybe even higher than 50%, but we are hoping for various reasons that 50% is high enough to work).

Think of it as a necessary evil if you prefer, rather than the straw man of someone making a claim about equal skill, sweat and effort, because no one is making that claim.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@cryptogee ·
Best answer @smooth.

[*Cg*](https://steemit.com/@cryptogee)
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@daltono ·
Let’s see this I’m action! The anticipation is killing me on both a good and bad way.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dana-edwards ·
$0.09
> At the request of the Witnesses, we have included code in this release that would add a long term funding mechanism for the SteemDAO/SPS. If this hardfork is accepted by the Witnesses, 10% of overall inflation (pulled from the rewards pool) would be used to fund proposals made through the SteemDAO/SPS.

I don't agree with this robbing Peter to pay Paul method of "long term funding". It puts one faction of the community against another similar to what we see in typical bureaucracies. In essence for the blogger it's going to be perceived as an immoral tax. 

A better way to fund something like this would be to provide a real useful promotion mechanism where bloggers can pay for visibility and use that to fund SteemDAO. In essence instead of BidBots why not use on-chain marketing to fund something like this?

This way actual activity and usage correlates with long term funding. Otherwise you're not likely to get anything which increases activity if the SteemDAO is funded no matter what by default. Also just like with political regimes once you start paying people in this way it's going to become increasingly more and more difficult to remove (lower the tax) in the future.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@andrarchy ·
$0.73
Once the SPS is in production you can propose whatever changes you like to the Steem stakeholders who can then fund the development of those features. Until then, we have to use our judgement, and the communications we have with the Witnesses, to guide the code we develop. If you don't feel we are making the right decisions, then that's a perfectly good reason to support the SPS. Until there is a decentralized mechanism for funding Steem blockchain development, you're stuck with us :)
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👎  
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vote details (4)
@pouchon ·
That’s a good point even though we have to move forward. We come to the decision where we need to fund this blockchain through SPS. It is a start. 
Keep on postin 


Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://partiko.app/referral/pouchon)
👎  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
~90% of rewards going to 35 whales out of tens of thousands of accounts is not decentralized.  
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vote details (3)
@kus-knee ·
Well put and I agree!
👎  
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vote details (1)
@dana-edwards ·
$0.02
I just want better alignment of incentives. Who came up with the incentive mechanics/mechanism design here? What are we trying to accomplish with the rewards (and punishments)?

Of course we need more code, but code should be generated to make a profit for everyone combined. What exactly will SPS produce which is so important that it needs 10% of the reward pool indefinitely? Is it going to produce a lot of profit and raise the price of Steem for everyone so that it's measurably beneficial or is it just moving numbers and percentages around to benefit a few who want development contracts?
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vote details (3)
@valued-customer ·
>"In essence instead of BidBots why not use on-chain marketing to fund something like this?"

I can think of one reason to implement a regressive tax on the ~10% of rewards not currently extracted by substantial stakeholders. Only one, and it isn't to fairly distribute the expense of funding development to those that will benefit from it.  Whales currently extract ~90% of rewards, despite creating almost none of the content those rewards are supposed to encourage creating.  This tax will be extracting yet more rewards from creators and enabling whales to vote to fund SPS proposals that will provide kickbacks, just like governments do today across the world.

That's the only reason for this particular funding mechanism I can grasp.
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vote details (3)
@iflagtrash ·
It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.<br><br>PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.
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@dana-edwards ·
Content producers need to know that the tax is on them. The SPS is funded by a tax on content producers. This might be fine because the content being produced isn't high quality anymore but then it also risks reducing active users on the site to even lower numbers. Retention is important. Curation is passive rather than active and while I can agree with 50/50, I don't see why SPS should be necessary.

How about create a profit and use that to fund pet projects via SPS? I know SMTs need to be funded, and communities, but I predict this along with the reward curve change could actually reduce the motivation of content producers. 

If the price of Steem actually were going in the other direction perhaps I could be more optimistic but these changes don't reflect the downward price movement (EIP). As a result, I don't think it's enough by itself. I think something more needs to be done although I'm not exactly sure what.

Anyone have suggestions?
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vote details (3)
@andrarchy · (edited)
We would argue that the existing system taxes good content creators, and the proposed system taxes bad content creators because it creates better incentives for quality content curation. But this is all semantics. Calling any of these things taxes is overdramatic hyperbole. Taxes are compulsory fees backed by violence. Steem is an open, decentralized, and voluntary ecosystem that was intended to unearth high quality content. As you agree, it is failing in that regard. The economics behind the proposed changes are sound with respect to better aligning incentives toward curating high quality content. If quality content creators *wind up* seeing diminished returns, then they should go to a platform that provides them with better returns. But we believe that they will find that these changes increase the odds that they receive rewards, because they are more likely to be found and upvoted while at the same time, thanks to free downvotes, poor content will be more likely to receive downvotes.
👎  ,
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vote details (2)
@distantsignal ·
Yes, technically it is not a government enforced tax, but the fee is being taken from our rewards and very well might have the same effect.  As we know, taxes tend to destroy things and if you "tax" the creators you run a big risk of disincentivzing creation.  

I am on this platform all the time, and I don't remember seeing any substantive, high profile forum or discussions on this.  I never see any scheduled discussions on Reddit - which is where I personally think these should be - and nor are they regular or centralized.  Everything is all over the place.  

Also, when you combine it with all the other ideas like the EIC and reduction in Creator rewards, it's just too much change at once @andrarchy!   
👍  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
>"... it creates better incentives for quality content curation."

I disagree.  It only creates, both before and after HF21, incentive to extract rewards made possible by content creators.  Nothing I've seen creates any reason to consider the quality of content.  Financial manipulation of the rewards mechanism enabling greater ROI for voting on particular content does not provide any financial incentive for valuing the quality of the content.  It only creates mechanisms that increase or decrease ROI based on metrics like vote timing, size of VP cast, and etc...

>"<a href="https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tax">tax</a>[ taks ]
noun
a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand."

Your definition of taxes is not supported by credible sources I am aware of, and I checked several just now.  The absence of physical force does not make a mandatory payment something other than a tax.  Fraud violates the NAP and does not involve violence either.

The payments to the witnesses, and the funding for SPS proposed, are taxes.  That's not hyperbole, nor dramatic.  They're mandatory payments required by the platform, and are taxes.  Claiming otherwise is semantics, and disingenuous.  I expect better of you, whom I have come to respect as an honest and forthright writer.

Please don't abandon those principles in the fervor of debate.

>"If quality content creators wind up seeing diminished returns, then they should go to a platform that provides them with better returns.

This statement amounts to an ultimatum, and an invitation for disaffected users to worsen Steem's already poor retention rate instead of seeking to comment reasonably in the hope of improving matters.  I can appreciate your passion on this issue.  It is something that highly recommends you for your position.  It is only commendable in the event that it inspires you to do a great job, and showing users that disagree with you the door does not meet the standards I believe you hold yourself to, nor seems desirable to your employer.

You and I don't always agree, and that is highly acceptable, because it is where we disagree that we can learn each from the other.  Telling someone to leave is similar to censoring them, and rather than showing your arguments are more reasonable, reveal you would prefer not to discuss, and implies logical weakness.

I am confident you don't want Steem to be an echo chamber of yes men, unable to learn from the criticism of their peers.
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vote details (4)
@dramatoken ·
<center>
  <img src="https://i.imgur.com/5FTrFXt.png" />
  <p>You've got <code>DRAMA</code>!</p>
  <p><sup>To view or trade <code>DRAMA</code> go to <a href="https://steem-engine.com/?p=market&t=DRAMA">steem-engine.com</a>.</sup></p>
</center>
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@dunsky ·
$0.08
Hey guys, I don't know where I should report it and if it could be solved or not. But in Russia and Turkey steemitimages server is blocked by IP because of one travel blog hosted on same IP wrote about Amsterdam coffeeshops. You can [check it here](https://isitblockedinrussia.com/?host=steemitimages.com). Now I can not see any images on Steem posts, not even any post previews without VPN.

Maybe it is possible to change IP steemitimages IP address somehow to make it work again? I know there are not so many people using Steem in Russia & Turkey since you even don't care about recent bug on steemitwallet.com which is making unable to save changes for locale and other settings (page refresh resets site settings and I have to use steemiwallet in Russian by default). But anyways maybe you will fix at least this issue.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dunsky ·
@steemitblog I'm sorry but I have to self upvote this bugs for visibility
properties (22)
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@ew-and-patterns ·
$1.31
Can you please bring back the charting updates towards reaching the goals of implementing communities and SMTs?
Why has communication slowed down a lot again?
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vote details (4)
@flemingfarm ·
$0.03
With this then all top 20 witnesses should cease all bidbots as they are gaming the system. They are double if not triple dipping through the failings of the Steem ecosystem that has allowed the manipulation. I am seriously concerned that the owners of said bots will just adjust their algorithm to the new cut and a few tweaks to curation algos will net them an equal cut to hf20. There had better be some damned good testing in the testnet this time to determine the efficacy when concerning the bots. Though I have large reservations about that since the top 20 are the testers, voters, and bot owners.
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vote details (4)
@jondoe ·
This does sound like a major conflict of interest.
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vote details (6)
@thedegensloth ·
You will likely see bot votes being downvoted with this new system. What is the bot going to do waste their downvotes on you?
👎  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
>"What is the bot going to do waste their downvotes on you?"

Absolutely, and profitably.  Downvotes are going to be free.  Won't cost them anything to protect their businesses from downvotes by hordes of minnows (if any are so foolish as to try to), and their stakes will enable them to conduct retaliatory flagging campaigns that will soon make examples that others will learn from.

No one rational without massive stake will be flagging whales with their free downvotes.  Free downvotes will likely only be used to conduct censorship without cost or retaliatory flags to crush any who dare to oppose profiteering.  The downvote pool will not somehow induce tens of thousands of minnows to act in concert, and that's what would be necessary to successfully defend against whale flags.
👍  
👎  ,
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vote details (3)
@freebornangel ·
$0.03
>As far as why the funding for the SteemDAO is coming out of the Rewards Pool, that was ultimately a decision that was made by the Witnesses, and we agree that it is an acceptable solution to the problem. 

I'd find it more acceptable if my rewards weren't going down by ~66%, too.

It is very telling about those in control of these things that rather than making steem all for one and one for all, instead push the costs off on others than themselves.


This looks bad, but who are we kidding, ya'll haven't looked good for several years now.

>The Rewards Pool is not shrinking, 

>10% of overall inflation (pulled from the rewards pool)

Jebus, and ya'll wonder how you got such a stincy reputation?

### Seriously, you just caught yourself in a deceptive statement, less than 4 paragraphs later.
Get a grip, stinc.
Are you sure that this is the record you want recorded in the blockchain?

>At the request of the Witnesses, we have included code in this release that would implement economic changes which alter the incentive mechanisms to be better aligned with rewarding high-quality content.

I liked the nsomething, but only with the 800mv influence cap.
There isn't anything we can do that changes the corrosive influence of the ninjamine, except cap it.
When do we stop letting those greedy whales farm us?
It's not like this wasn't discussed 2+ years ago.
Ya'll are just mad because short hair no longer distracts us from the glaring use case issues not being addressed by those with the power to change steem in order to continue allowing the abuse by the biggest accounts.

## But,...smteees!!™

>we do know how the system is behaving now and there is consensus that the system is functioning sub-optimally. Our decision to use the constant 2e12 in the new rewards curve is based on the desire to not change the system too much 

Yeah, those self voting and dumping might have to find real jobs if anything actually changed.

>we believe these changes will make it easier for good content to be discovered and rewarded,

Not buying it, you knew beforehand what linear reward would do and forced them on us, anyway.
I'm just hoping that the next fork doesn't take this long.
We've wasted 2+ years confirming what was said about linear rewards before they were a thing.

But what is new?
Stinc only listens to those that agree with them.
Just ask @curie.

### No speaky the corporatespeak?
## No curie vote for you!


> and they serve at the discretion of you all: the Steem stakeholders. 

Lol, well, at least a couple of us, anyways.

>Steemit, Inc. and its representatives do not, and will not, leverage our stake to influence this decision.

How do we certify that statement as long as stake has been hidden to avoid embarrassing forks?

## But other than that, everything is just fine,...

No, really, I like the downvote thing, so one out of three is not sooo bad.

👍  ,
👎  
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vote details (3)
@jondoe ·
$0.03
I was all for a portion coming from several of the inflation categories, which I think just about everyone was so that any one category didn't bear the costs of it all. Yet somehow that all was ignored.
👍  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@freebornangel ·
Well, we are on the 'wrong' side of the class war.
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@valued-customer · (edited)
I could not more strongly agree with your every statement herein (except the acceptance of the downvote pool.  That will mainly be useful to bots to retaliate against the fleabite flags of minnows trying to discourage them, for free, and to censor even more because it will be free.  Since it does not change the reality of retaliation, only fools will try to use their free flags to rein in bots or flaggots).  I have cast my first 100% vote I can recall as a result.

Keep on speaking truth to power!
👍  
👎  ,
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vote details (3)
@freebornangel ·
I'm in on this because it can only make things worse, which might give a higher priority to actually addressing the cancer rather than treating the symptoms.

Strike the root of the abuse tree!
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@iflagtrash ·
It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.<br><br>PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.
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@goldmanmorgan ·
just one more question @steemitblog , i NEVER downvote ... not once since i got here , do i get extra upvotes for free instead ?

i think downvoting is detrimental btw, you'll never get big brands to sign up if they clash in flagwars with opposing brands
... my crazy opinion again ofcourse
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@grexx ·
Waooooooooo Many changes, it is amazing
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@happyme ·
It seems to me that Steemit Inc. should do NOTHING. Leave all development up to individuals.
LOOK: we already HAVE new tokens-- done privately.
We already HAVE communities -- done privately by using the tokens and token tags.

Just leave things alone and someone will do what needs to be done to make Steem great again. It has already begun!
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@healthexpert ·
@steemitblog why always you busy in decreasing the author reward who surf all their time and struggle here and increasing curation will be enjoy for whales and free powr holder from freedom what a common men will take decreasing reward will decrease user interest why witnesses impose HF21 when no one is happy with it ? This is non sense stop doing this we all leave Steem and power down forever
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@ihkhandokar ·
good
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@isnochys ·
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vote details (11)
@joeyarnoldvn ·
I went to Steemit.com and registered for a 2nd Steem account for myself @oatmealjoey over a week ago and I'm still waiting for it to be approved. Will it be accepted or will I have to pay money for creating additional accounts for Steem?
👎  
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vote details (1)
@jondoe ·
Looks like the market really likes these proposed changes... Steem now 70th on Coinmarketcap. It's never been lower.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@freebornangel ·
$0.02
Lol, don't you know that has been the plan all along.
If we actually fixed the things wrong with this financial system things would be upended.

That is not in the plan of the elites, who control steem like they control everything else.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@jondoe ·
$0.03
I actually believe their intentions are good, including the witnesses, but they can't seem to get out of their own way. I mean they would benefit much more from a higher steem price than a low one, even more so than the rest of us would.
👍  , , , ,
👎  
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vote details (6)
@joythewanderer · (edited)
>Our decision to use the constant 2e12 in the new rewards curve is based on the desire to not change the system too much (because we know that the system still functions)

This sounds weak to me. Don’t get me wrong, probably everyone knows the economics now is broken, it’s nice to see changes for sure, but I don’t get why to choose this specific curve though.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@eonwarped ·
This specific statement is about the choice of constant, not the choice of curve. The motivation for this family of curves is in @vandeberg EIP curve post https://steemit.com/steem/@vandeberg/reward-curve-deep-dive
👍  
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vote details (1)
@joythewanderer · (edited)
Thanks. I’ve read that post. What I didn’t get is the curve will go near linear at 16 steem, then the whole broken thing won’t really change much.   But i guess we’ll see how it goes.  @remind-me in 3 months

Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://partiko.app/referral/joythewanderer)
👎  
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vote details (1)
@kus-knee ·
$0.48
Regarding SPS why take away 10% of the reward pool in order to pay for things that are being built anyway? This building is being done organically and the builders are actually creating business models with outside income sources. This will take away incentive! In my worst English "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

Let's look now at the reward curve and why I hate the proposal. As a disclaimer I must first write that I have purchased about 25,000 SP at between $1 and $3!

Why I Don't Like It:

1.) If Steemit.com wants another reward model for bloggers they can use SMT's to do it. Don't mess with your unpaid builders!

The Steem blockchain is NOT a blogging blockchain so they shouldn't base everything on that! That is NOT visionary!

2.) Those of us that have built using the current reward system are going to get penalized. I reward all commenters on my posts with an upvote of at least 3% if I can't do that my community has less incentive. What about big investors that are trying to build a communtiy and reward them. Will they still invest? Probably not.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (19)
@dana-edwards · (edited)
$0.02
Exactly. When did we even have a debate or when was a case even made where agreement has been reached on the need for SPS? What is SPS supposed to do for the ecosystem to make it worth 10% indefinite spending rate?

How do we stop or reverse course if we find SPS is not somehow profitable or growing the ecosystem? If Steem were a company or a government how would we justify this to shareholders or to voters?
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vote details (2)
@andrarchy ·
$0.19
@blocktrades is certainly the subject matter expert on this, and I believe he's published a number of posts explaining the careful design of the system. The discussion was had amongst the Witnesses who are the ultimate arbiters of these decisions. Those are the people stakeholders voted for. 

What the SPS is supposed to do is fund projects that create sufficient value to justify the expenditure, and that's the analysis people should perform when determining whether to vote on a proposal. If there are no good proposals, then people shouldn't vote on any proposals, and that money will go unspent. That's how you roll back the SPS, if it doesn't generate any value, don't use it or downvote proposals you don't like.
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vote details (2)
@thedegensloth ·
Just to be clear things are being paid for by steemit. We can't expect them to make every fork and pay for them. This new system would allow us to lower our dependence on any one organization.

This is a backup plan for steem, if steemit goes bankrupt we need a way to fund development not saying they will but we need to have a plan for any eventuality. This will also allow us to come up with better features for these content creators. Development doesn't fund itself, we as a community should take the hit to guarantee the longevity of the chain.
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vote details (2)
@valued-customer · (edited)
We as a community can voluntarily decide to vote for and fund proposals as we see fit.  SPS being funded as a tax on the ~10% of rewards shared by content creators whose median payout is .01 SBD is undeniably regressive.

I cannot imagine a set of proposals better designed to reduce Steem's dismal retention rate of ~7.5% YOY further.  Every aspect of EIP and the SPS funding proposal is going to increase the flow of the economic activity on Steem into the wallets of the most substantial stakeholders before it can raise the price of Steem, and decrease the distribution of Steem to that demographic creating all the value of Steem by creating content.

If you want to cause the price of Steem to plummet, market cap to decline further, and to reduce the number of people creating content, I can't think of better ways to do that.  
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vote details (3)
@therealwolf ·
$0.35
> Regarding SPS why take away 10% of the reward pool in order to pay for things that are being built anyway? This building is being done organically and the builders are actually creating business models with outside income sources. This will take away incentive! In my worst English "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

Steem's economic model is broken. That's a fact. Otherwise, we wouldn't be losing relative market-valuation constantly. Inflation is being generated and sold on exchanges, but the buy pressure is not big enough to sustain a high market valuation.

And regarding taking from the reward-pool: the majority of it isn't being utilized effectively. The inflation should have been something that is advancing this ecosystem, but only a niche group of people are actually doing something. SPS will hopefully help to have more streamlined goals for people to be rewarded for actual work done.
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vote details (6)
@jphamer1 ·
$0.84
this a bear market, the low of 40 cents is alot higher than the lows of 2016. For steem to work it needs investors and believers. Authors are the ones who dump steem because they are effectively working and need paying. I believe the Hardfork encourages more of an investment mindset which is crucial for the steem price and ecosystem long term. It is not broken it is a bear market and we ride it out with every other alt coin.
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vote details (4)
@marki99 ·
Inflation being sold is irrelevant compared to steemit inc selling rate, isn't it?
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@valued-customer ·
>"Steem's economic model is broken."

You are why Steem's economy is broken, and are the best example of that malfunction.  You extract it's value for your personal profit before the economic activity and infrastructure can produce capital gains.

>"And regarding taking from the reward-pool: the majority of it isn't being utilized effectively."

Less than ~10% of the rewards are reaching the intended destination of rewards: content creators.  Almost all rewards are being extracted by manipulative financial mechanisms, and end up in the wallets of whales.  You are the niche group 'doing something', and the something you are doing is preventing capital gains.  The whales are cutting their own throats by concentrating all the value of the economy into their wallets, each to the maximum degree possible.  EIP is a set of mechanisms to increase the rate of extraction of value before it creates capital gains.  Halving author's share of rewards and instead delivering twice as much to those extracting it with the weight of their stakes, increasing the exponential power of stake with the modified rewards curve, and availing free flags to flaggots censoring creators that returns rewards the community sought to provide them as incentive to the rewards pool, where you can extract it instead, all increase the rate of extraction of rewards by stake weighting, and suppress capital gains.

You and your ilk are doing so because you can simply move on to the next victim once you've drained the host economy of the stake you extract.  Steem will be a corpse, drained dry by your parasitization, left to blow away in the winds of avarice, leaving the gems that could have instead have been nurtured by substantial stakeholders to create capital gains for all investors; censorship resistance (in a world more silenced every day); one of the best blockchains ever written; a currency model that made transaction fees obsolete and proved microtransactions not only viable, but scalable both globally and fiscally, and a social media use case that could have leapfrogged every business model extant - had you only been willing to rely on capital gains for your ROI.

Should Steem somehow remain viable after you profiteers have moved on, perhaps the remaining users will be able to implement sound policies that encourage investing for capital gains, and then be able to grow instead of feed parasites.

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vote details (3)
@lays ·
@steemitblog did not you learnt from HF 20 destruction to the steem price Why are you decreasing the author reward and if you increase curation reward only bid bot owners who are getting free power from @freedom will enjoy what a normal author will get for hard work in writing long articles if HF 21 Gonna increase steem price then oKay otherwise in my view it will destroy steem more why people will power up when there is almost no reward for power holders
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vote details (5)
@thedegensloth ·
There is a reward, with this the curation cut goes up. So they get more for having more powered up is they vote on content. Though what person is going to pay a bot to come in at a loss. Other than people who really want advertising. The bots will be taking way more of the curation than they did before. You should see people pulling assets out of bots in theory.
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@mahtabalam ·
I think steem will go 0.05$ after this hard fork. Stop doing hard fork. whenever you do hard fork steem goes down. This hard fork is useless. For the god sake please stop it.
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vote details (1)
@kawaiicrush ·
You are absolutely correct. And that is their plan. It is finished. Sorry man. Experiment over.
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vote details (3)
@iflagtrash ·
It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.<br><br>PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.
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@martie7 ·
$0.07
There is another proposal.
[A serious attempt at repairing the STEEM Economic Improvement Proposal (eip) for HF21](https://steemit.com/hf21/@pibara/a-serious-attempt-at-repairing-the-steem-economic-improvement-proposal-eip-for-hf21#@martie7/ptd1xv)
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vote details (3)
@meesterboom · (edited)
$2.00
Personally, I just can't believe that none of the ten percent of the funding for the SPS is coming from the witness portion of inflation, which remains unchanged.

Even a symbolic 1 or 2 % would have gone a long way to showing that we are **all in this together.**

Instead, it all comes directly from content creators. When will it be understood that without content creators this platform will wither and die? Why should content creators alone bear the burden?

*Note, I think the SPS is a good thing. My issue is the funding. Just in case anyone goes all 'straw man.'*
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vote details (46)
@ajayyy ·
$0.02
Like others have said, why not take from witness rewards and make the remaining witness rewards a proposal in the SPS system?
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properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@meesterboom ·
A fine idea! :0)
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@smooth · (edited)
Because the system needs a stable core to function at all, and that requires that witnesses not only be paid but paid enough to always maintain stable infrastructure and contribute enough of their time to necessary 'soft' functions, but also enough so that concern of losing a witness slot is a meaningful incentive to remain a good actor (if you are doing it break-even or at a loss, who cares if you get voted out once you have messed with the chain, possibly for personal profit or paid by someone else who profits).

Without a stable functioning and secure chain you can't even conduct an SPS vote. For example, witnesses could tamper with the vote by censoring transactions, or punishing accounts which vote the "wrong" way. 

**A DPoS chain depends fundamentally on the competence and integrity of its witnesses** Putting that at risk puts the entire system at risk.
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@berniesanders · (edited)
$2.11
The witnesses would **never** allow a fork to go through that reduces their precious rewards.  Are you out of your mind?

The majority are leeches who contribute the bare minimum to get that big @pumpkin vote. Once they've got it, they're golden.  

Shall we talk about how a single person has sole control over our witnesses?  Nah...wouldn't want to bring something like that up...
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vote details (19)
@dj123 · (edited)
Witnesses are at best basically business minded folks (being nice here) and less about long stability, growth, and sound ideologically minded thinking economist.

If the thousands of the multitudes of BTC core miners can unite to refuse to give up their fat transaction fees and slow down the progress of Bitcoin adoption as a transfer of value, do you think a simple band of 20-30 top witness would ever be able to openly debate and agree to collectively give up a single dollar of sacrifice to improve our already quasi-centralized/decentralized social consensus network?

Since asking Witnesses to sacrifice Steem for price growth is near impossible, aka reducing their share in the 10%.

Keep it at 10%, hell, we can even increase it to 15%, how about 20%....BUT 

Lets ALSO increase the number of witnesses getting bigger rewards. The competition will eventually breed improvement. Slowly at first, but inevitable, it will accelerate, imagine 1000 Steem miners, can you imagine how many innovations we'll have on Steem if we attracted so many technical investors?

We should just make Steem an ever-improving decentralized network....raise the top 20 witness number gradually, say 1-5 new witness sharing in the top 20 pool over time, say every 3-12 months.

Just a Simple Example: As long as there is 50-100 active witness in the network (check by math so there is no need to debate this amongst witnesses), we increase top paid witness number by 1 every 6 month (for every 50-100 witness, so if there is 400 witnesses, we should see at least 4 or more new top witnesses). At today snail pace of sustainble witnesses, we should currently see a minimal 2 new top witnesses, and in 10 years time (assuming we find a way to reward curators and content producer on Steem so it doesn't degrade till near abandonment), we'll see at least 40 top witness sharing the lion share of the top pool in 10 years time....possibly 200 new top witness (and by then, we'll probably see Steem at $100 :D )

So in theory, if this proposal attracts more people to become witnesses aka more miners to secure our network, and to compete with better reliability, full node servers, and new daap/community/innovation proposals and implementation.
 
No DPOS/DAO/token/smart-contract crypto has this today, it will give Steem a leg up, and better crypto and institutional investor creds, aka funds flowing in if we did this, making up for the decentralization cost of increasing the pool of witnesses and rewarding them.

ALTERNATIVELY:

Let Top 20 Witness share of the witness pool decrease over time, eg. currently it what 20/21 share almost all the 10%. So instead of keeping 95% of Steem witness income going to only 20 witnesses FOREVER!, let it drop by 5% every year until it reaches 20% (say after 12-14 years), giving more rewards to witnesses from 21 to 100 or beyond.

Incremental improvement to decentralization will help the cause of Steem. Not just stability, but greatly so with the financial community and crypto community. I say if this works, you'll see EOS, Tron, etc start doing the same, improving all 3rd gen crypto over time.

ONE OTHER THING:

 And goodness sake, please implement vote expiry....that's just a non-brainer. Every vote should only last max 6 months max, of FFS lets be innovative if whale, orcas, and dolphins keep renewing the votes for the same witnesses (respectful fcukers or shifty mofo) the vote weight should reduce by 50%, so new upcoming witnesses with new votes gets a chance to rise up (do stuff to make Steem proud and not just make money) and get gradually increasing rewards so they don't end up proving themselve for next to nothing. 

COME ON EVERYONE...WHY NOT?
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@edje ·
Can SteemDAO/SPS be used somehow to change the decision wrt who pays for SteemDAO/SPS? And can we use it to somehow create a different system of ruling decision? Maybe a more democratic way with many more Steemians being able to vote for a change than limiting this to a few witnesses?
👎  
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vote details (1)
@enginewitty · (edited)
I've been hovering around 80 for awhile and wouldn't be bought. The only one I saw publicly against it was @yabapmatt, who, ironically now - is number 1? Not saying your logic doesn't make sense, I've been trying to help the little guy since I got here being a 'little guy' myself. I love your views, really, not just kissing ass. Just wish more people were as perceptive.

Our main issue (by our, I mean the vast majority of @thealliance community) is the 50/50 split. Is there a way the masses can really have the power here or is this place actually centralized? I know no one that is in favor of this with less than 5000 SP.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@goldmanmorgan ·
@berniesanders agreed - its a rich-people fork ...

But the worst of all, FREE DOWNVOTES ?

its not bad enough already ? give the haters their hobby for free ?

i shouldn't have read this
👍  
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vote details (1)
@meesterboom ·
Yeah, that's true. I was having a crazy moment when I suggested it. Even crazier to think that any of them would be game!!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@cryptocurator ·
$0.02
And by the same principle why not a thin slice off the Steem Power interest so that all beneficiaries of inflation system - fund the SPS. After all, I think I'm right in saying that 35 accounts hold over half of the Steem Power. I guess that would have been unpopular with the whales.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@distantsignal ·
$0.02
Yes.  Also, why 10%?  Where did that number come from?  Not just just 5%?  Why not 15%?  I just don't understand.  Also, I agree, Witnesses should be giving up some of their funds.  I think 5%, just so that we're both losing half.  ;)
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@ackza ·
some witnesses work harder than all the content creators combined lol steem doenst have godo content anyway it mostly sucks, mostly, we have great people but they are lost in a sea of garbage which si NORMAL its NOT ABNORMAl for a social mediasite to be FULL of trash they ALl are LOL :D But we have to actually hit a saturation point to get to the point wher ewe can actually get GOOD content rise to top liek reddit and 240 million users

just give @steemit inc tiem toi realize they MUSt sacrifice or INVEST millions of steem on NEW account creation , THEN we can onbaord millions of reddit users and BOOm we win
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@meesterboom ·
I would definitely like to see something coming from them. I find the fact that it all comes from the creators disrespectful of those who put the work in day in and day out.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@goldmanmorgan · (edited)
$0.06
@meesterboom

*symbolic 1%* as you say, coming from the one percent would at least show they give a shit about anything but their circlejerk , true dat, and i frea the "will work for food system" will quickly end-up into a "i know you" system where who you know counts for more than what you can do ... BUT WELL

Such is the way of the world ...

https://media.giphy.com/media/LSPLH1pKRgmo8/giphy.gif

its never been about good content either, its about pseudo agressirve networking and selling what people wanna hear, the most paid post i ever saw got $4k dollar simply by stating bitcoin would rise in less than 2 pages of paper would take ... that's a crock o' shyte and everybody knows it :)

here in down-below we'll just have to make do

as we always do ...

"kiss the bishop's ring"
"and you might get a job, dear ..."

LOL


and also .. as usual, the [protectorate](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2261227/) makes Takeshi Kovacs cry ... i think most of those people have no real clue about real world outside theirs. Keep in mind the internet is NOT america for instance && this. != a regulated market ... so someone from ,.pff i dunno, name half of asia or south america ( people can actually "work" too there) puts up something for 1% of the price because they can eat from that ... that's how fast we'll see if it's an "i-know-you" system or not ... blocktrades gets 50k if i were to mention a simple messenger for services id probably get the answer that it's "too much trouble to implement" :D

... puns not excluded ... facebook is facebook because out of a billion users it has 999 million posting utter crud SEVERAL times a day, not because it gives free downvotes in the name of misterdelegation or whoever is dictating this crud ...

some good points BUT ... until i see it work and prove itself otherwise i think here the bad outweighs the good

and before i get misunderstood ... i got nothing against @blocktrades, dont get me wrong, just like yabapmatt/aggroed , they excell in both product and delivery, blocktrades got excellent support too btw, zero complaints, and i certainly personally wouldnt refuse 50 grand (lol) if i could get them - but it IS in essence, just like no matter how elections go and who wins or loses, you KEEP seeing the same faces on tv :p

... (i am not known for popular opinion, but from the looks of it this HF is gonna cost me since im not a steemonnaire, and i also dont live in a coutnry where i can simply accept work online without paying 10s of thousands in fees to the state yearly for a business license AND can underprice everyone else so i dont think there s....

anything good about it, but i'll hold my opinion until i see it lol)

m hm mh i know i know Mister Delegation (that's actually ONE account that empowers steemcleaners to police "in the name" of, without that they would have like less sp than me or something close ... well approximate overall as an example)

i know "but we want good content, not to be facebook"

but ... *You get dopamine sellers in the trending section and you seem to DO want the money ?*

hippiecrite morals (yea well, me and my goodspeak huh ...)

haaa ... no i'm all up for free market ... living in soviet Europe free market is a regulated farce (but also because it has to be but also because of that it keeps the circle in place et al ...) i'm just not sure the meeting-people-who-always-smile because life upthere is ofcourse positive, easy to be magnanimous when your pockets are already fat, né ? 
im not sure they realize the full extent of what this "internet" covers lol ... it could be great for people in countries with low chances to earn a buck as regulation there is not as strict as here - for all i know in china or vietnam you can "just start", at least ive been told by several people, while here, you can "just pay your fees , your this your that, get an extra paper have it all statestamped ... about 15 to 40k euros BEFORE you are allowed to make a cent, and then pay 60% on that cent ...) so it could be great for them but i doubt that's how it's gonna work ...

pardon the lingo but that's how i talks lol ... usually with more cuss but its too public here ... i could rant on for an hour but i need the RC as my daily posts are quite costly , good health and safe travels @meesterboom , @berniesanders :)

maybe euhm .. off the top of my hat ... @juanmolina , @phoenixwren , @ecoinstant , @chinotattooart know some skilled people who could make good use of it if it really is what it sounds like ... @mobbs maybe ... not that i'm implying you people are living on the street but you might know people who could make use of it ... (its so easy to be misunderstood and i hate so to be apologetic because i talk how i talk so that's why i usually dont say a lot anymore here)

man, i havent made that much mentions since last year, aight ... gtg ...

steer the course and :

![output_ft573y.gif](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmXyWmtxzEzC2YbHJufZTSwrpBeCWJ3mFyYixm5NuaHvwd/output_ft573y.gif)

don't let *them* decide what YOU get to say and do ... (normally i would say don't be a little bitch and spit and swallow because it gets you a fiver ... " but in thise case i'll stick to almost acceptable language (a yea, rendered flag by me @rudyardcatling)

O yea .. well

i'm out of the running but ... im not clear on the marketing strategies either ... for instance in co-op with @lemouth and the masters-of-rules-or-else-you-dont-get-a-cookie-peasant (not really my crowd, but the sensei is !!!) they had people here (or have) working on software and clustering to analyze and prep data from the m***f*g Large Hadron Collider at Cern , and several other projects that are not the frontpage right, the frontpage is "get paid for good content) - im not a marketing genius ofcourse, if i would be slightly not bad in production and systems, i would still need someone to do the talking for me (clearly) to sell sh*t ... excrement - ... sigh ... but stuff like that should be flagship-stuff, WE ARE HELPING THE ... (<-insert kiloton name here) with their project on ... and maybe this new will work for food system COULD , if helped to be not just an american circlejerk where 99% of the money goes to already witnesses HELP projects in places like ... whatever venezuela, vietnam whatever to *build* stuff and start stuff up ... i think that would make a mighty fine print on the frontpage  ... as in "Our name is not speculationcoin" ...
(i keep yanking again , tsk, sorry for the extensive breathe-out , really gtg now)

... or maybe one last verse ....

i know its not an NGO , its business in the first place but you DO have an image, and image attracts (as well as rejects) , the people running greenpeace for instance won't have to sleep under a bridge at the end of the month either and (maybe thats because i feel more comfortable in deep water than where the whales swim) you got plenty of activists here, i'm amazed they didnt get amnesty or greenpeace to advertise yet ... 

phew, breathe in , cat ... 

![27-I-will-nap-here-cat-meme.jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmcxsmjYqRDXZem9KNHe7SrSa2d917W4CHHvWXWwDn7GeC/27-I-will-nap-here-cat-meme.jpg)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@meesterboom ·
Ah, Amy comment that mentions Takeshi Kovac or the protectorate is a winner in my book!!

If I wasn't about to go to sleep, I would give a more dignified answer. But yes, I agree with you 100 percent!
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@phoenixwren ·
Hey! I'm sorry, I tried to read this thread in Partiko and there are so many replies I guess that it just boots me back to my notification screen. So I can't follow the full discussion and am missing some points. I'll try again later to see it, but just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you!

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/phoenixwren)
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@howo · (edited)
Witness rewards are what controls the security, if you cut witness rewards, you cut funding for a proper server infrastructure. Which means the chain might go down or worse get forked out. Which would be a distaster.  I don't think it's worth to reduce chain security to show that "we are in this together"
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@meesterboom ·
Yeah. Right.
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@jondoe ·
$0.03
Yes I agree completely. Especially when some of the witness funding was said to be to help them build projects. The rewards from being a top witness far outweigh the costs, especially after MIRA, even with steem at $.40. Why we are not directing some of the inflation from them is ridiculous to me as well.
👍  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@meesterboom ·
Exactly, it's ridiculous and will cause a lot of negativity
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@smooth · (edited)
Witness funding _was and is not intended to fund projects_ after it was cut 80% (I believe in HF12). 

Some witnesses do get involved with projects as part of their campaign for votes, and given surplus funds under some conditions, but that's not a core part of witness rewards based on how the budget was designed.

By contrast, witness rewards _were_ intended to support projects prior to being cut 80%. That bundling was not seen as a good approach and was a good part of the motivation for the huge 80% cut. It was always envisioned that: a) existing reward funds could be used to fund projects via voting for posts, and b) something like SPS could be implemented later to more directly fund projects without the somewhat messy process of doing it with posts. It took almost three years to get there, but better late than never.
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@kus-knee · (edited)
$0.12
"Even a symbolic 1 or 2 % would have gone a long way to showing that we are **all in this together.**" 

Great point!
👍  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@meesterboom ·
Totally, just even 1!!
👍  
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
$1.47
1% would be a 10% reduction, and 2% would be a 20% reduction. Would these be catastrophic? Perhaps not, but when the current level of witness rewards were set (as part of a previous hard fork which already cut them by 80%), that was done with a goal of maintaining a safety margin in case of realistic but pessimistic scenarios on the Steem price and operational costs. 10% or 20% reduction would be a big hit to that safety margin.

Given:
1. Desire to maintain the core blockchain operations at a safe level
2. The poor performance of the content reward pool in numerous ways
3. The observation that SPS and content rewards do the same fundamental thing (both are proposals to be paid by stakeholders for contributing something of value to Steem) and should therefore be considered on the same "budget line" so to speak.
4. The reward pool already funds proposals of various sorts, developers, community projects, marketing, etc. not only "content creators". Post-fork these can shift to SPS which again means that the two pools ought to be viewed as shifting on the same "budget line" (projects using SPS instead also means leaving more for content creators, in rough terms offsetting the shift).

many witnesses and stakeholders, myself included, view the proposed split as the best tradeoff, despite what may seem like "unfairness" when viewed solely from the perspective of this group vs that group. Sometimes perceived "fairness" can and should take a back seat to function and good economics, particularly when you are talking about an arguably failing project which if it continues on its current trajectory is likely going to ultimately result in no one getting anything.

Finally, it may be a hard truth to hear, especially for community members and content creators such as yourself or @meesterboom who absolutely have contributed a lot, but the content reward pool by design is supposed to be an engine which drives Steem's growth, not only with literal "content" but by attracting and retaining a _growing_ community of people who _contribute_ meaningfully to Steem. Sure there are some who do this, but as an overall mechanism, it clearly _hasn't worked_ and on that basis alone is a prime candidate for having a slice of its budget reallocated to better use (or at least different use with the potential for more value add).

Witnesses, by design, are supposed to securely and honestly sign blocks to maintain the integrity of the network, securely and honestly adjust blockchain parameters, and approve hard forks (which in practice includes some consultation with developers on what is included in hard fork proposals). That portion of the system _has_ generally worked, including at low Steem prices, and most if not all of the current witnesses are doing these things well (this hasn't always been the case). 

The bottom line is that witnesses are mostly (if not all) doing their job; the content reward pool has not been doing its job. Looking at this from the perspective of what is best for _Steem as a whole_, the reasons for the proposed adjustment to the budget ought to be pretty clear.

Different adjustments can be made in the future with the benefit of further experience.
👍  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@therealwolf · (edited)
$0.51
There were discussions about this. Some were in favour (most noticebly @thecryptodrive), but the majority was against it; including myself.

I can only speak for myself, but the reasoning was quite logical. The SPS is very similar to the reward-pool. It's just more fine-tuned on achieving results, instead of just having a playground for people to co-operate. So taking the cut from the reward-pool makes sense.

In contrast, witnesses are the backbone of Steem and its ecosystem; which includes Steem Engine & co. Taking from that source would possibly mean pulling the rug from underneath.

Witnesses in the TOP 20 are making roughly 9280 STEEM per month; backup-witnesses are making far less (roughly 1/4 or lower). 9280 STEEM at 0.4 USD is ~3712$. (Brutto; tax has to be subtracted) Infrastructure is roughly 400$-1000$ (or more); depending on factors like full-nodes, hivemind-nodes, etc. But this only includes hardware costs, not the costs associated with the individual(s) behind the witness. Besides the obvious requirements as in securing & monitoring nodes and reviewing code, there are many unspoken requirements from witnesses; taking part in discussions, answering questions, helping new/old members, etc etc.

Now imagine BTC would drop to 3000$ and STEEM were to stay at its current level; this would result in a 12 cent STEEM. 9280 STEEM would suddenly only be worth ~1110$ (Brutto). At that point, maintaining a witness would still be possible, but a far bigger risk-factor, as the costs of running Steem nodes are essentially only rising (MIRA is helping, but TOP 20-30 witnesses do have to run high memory nodes in order to keep replay-duration low).

Especially, as infrastructure costs are really just the fundament. And you want to have experienced witnesses that feel their time is valued, which includes adequate payment.

> "Even a symbolic 1 or 2 % would have gone a long way to showing that we are all in this together."

I'm obviously not arguing with you that a 1% cut wouldn't really matter in the great scheme of things, but then why even bother with doing that, when the logical thing to do is to reduce the reward-pool in favour for the SPS pool (as I explained above).

Just because people would have a better feeling, as in we're all in this together? That's just sugar on top. Because what if I told you, that we're already in this together?

I'm a witness and developer for sure, but I'm also a content creator. Over my 2 years here on Steem, I've produced 283 posts. That's probably not as much as really dedicated content creators, but its still something. So yeah, the reward-pool cut also effects me directly.
👍  , , , , ,
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vote details (6)
@meesterboom ·
Cheers old dog!! As is yours too!
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@mehta ·
1. I agree with your thoughts But this is not possible because they wanted their vote for successful implementing HF21. If they take their share, they will hurt.
2. All other things of HF21 are good.
3. I don't figure out the outcome of downvote pool. Is it good or bad? Let's see what comes with downvote pool.
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@nonameslefttouse · (edited)
$0.06
Have you ever noticed how some around here will say things like, "If these content producers were producing something of value, they could be out in the ___real world___ making money."

All that does is prove how disconnected they are from the real world.  This *is* the ***real world*** and since so many fail to see that, they can't wrap their heads around how the arts and entertainment industry generates billions annually, in the real world.  Since this platform is all the land of make belief to them, they have no problems with stepping on content producers, kicking them to curb, losing out on potentially and eventually billions of dollars, so they can scratch their heads and wonder why they can't even get a few thousand dollars pouring in, while thinking they live in a dream land.

Hopefully it's not a coma though because it would be nice if some folks around here could wake up.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@meesterboom ·
If only they could wake up. If only they could see for a moment what they are creating. Or rather what they are not. As we both know if they carry on deriding content creators then they will only ever see ever diminishing returns. And then nothing. When it is too late they will try to change things up but it will be too late.

Lots of people were panicking when Dan announced *Voice* which in the end turned out to be a damp squib fraught with problems before it even began. There will come a competitor though, one that understands the basic paradigm and seeks novel ways to solve it. 

The content creator bashers here can attempt to make it hard for them or carry on the way they are going and make it easy for them. I am not holding my breath
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@pagandance ·
![trash.png](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmR6r2HrY639YmwLswF8nvbsm1hERzkDJcV88x6LZNvHgX/trash.png)
👎  ,
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vote details (2)
@iflagtrash ·
It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.<br><br>PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.
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@paradigmprospect ·
My thoughts exactly.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@rafagonzalez ·
jajaja lomismo pense, bueno es lamisria del poder y la miseria de los gobernados d nunca onfiar en los gobernantes...es como una maldicón a voces...aunque sea 0,5 hubiera sido motivante,,,
👍  
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vote details (1)
@meesterboom ·
Yes indeed, anything would have been motivating. There would be no issue if they said 0.5 but the fact they vote for everyone elses haircut is poor!
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@thedegensloth ·
$0.11
At the current market price, it would be just under one million a year for funding. If the price raises it even more funds to get things developed with. Yes, content creators and commenters will take a hit. But because of this, our dependence on the development of the chain goes down. So say steemit goes bankrupt we can still find developers to put the changes in that we need.

This is also a very good backup plan for us, without faster forks and development steem was going to die anyway.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@meesterboom ·
Yes, this is true. 

My point is not against the creation of the SPS. My point is the direction of the funding being solely from content creators.

The witnesses are stakeholders too, it is only fair that **all** stakeholders contribute. To leave all contributions coming from just one group is far from ideal.

I will reiterate. I am for the SPS. I am **not** for all of the funding coming solely from content creators. When you add the other changes into the mix it exacerbates the pain that will be felt from them. 

Let us not forget that highly competitive days are coming. To discourage, even slightly those that could potentially draw audience to the platform is counter intuitive.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@xplosive · (edited)
$0.02
***"When will it be understood that without content creators this platform will wither and die?"***
I agree with you, but I think that it is important to mention that this platform will also wither and die without content curators, and to be honest, this platform currently lacks of real content curators.
I am on Steem since 2017.05.17, and I see that people are selfish and greedy.
Many people are writing blog posts, but only a few people cares about other people's blog posts.
Maybe HF21 (EIP) (Economic Improvement Proposal) will change this by ***"Increasing the curation rewards to equal the author rewards"***.
If this will decrease the number of bloggers (and content creators in general), and increase the number of content curators (and maybe the real, human interaction with it), then HF21 will be good for Steem. 
We (the users and the community of the whole Steem blockchain) need to find a good balance between content creators and content curators, otherwise this platform will wither and die.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@meesterboom · (edited)
And I agree with you hence in my original comment I said that I agree with the changes proposed. I am all for the change to 50/50.

Something needs done and this is something. Curation is sorely lacking, whether this will truly help remains to be seen but it is something and I think that's important.
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@mmmmkkkk311 · (edited)
$0.10
We should be able to downvote content anonymously,  is it technically possible to hide/mask these transactions on blockchain?
👍  
👎  
properties (23)
authormmmmkkkk311
permlinkptkk6t
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created2019-06-23 20:42:36
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root_title"HF21: SPS and EIP Explained"
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vote details (2)
@hungryharish ·
That creates chaos friend. What if you are targeted by a whale and you never knew who downvoting you !? At least now you can raise a issue if some one constantly downvoting as we get to know who doing this.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/hungryharish)
properties (22)
authorhungryharish
permlinkhungryharish-re-mmmmkkkk311-ptkk6t-20190628t125525213z
categorysteem
json_metadata{"app":"partiko","client":"android"}
created2019-06-28 12:55:30
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depth2
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author_reputation43,084,570,998,742
root_title"HF21: SPS and EIP Explained"
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@netuoso ·
$0.95
Just wanted to clarify that the downvote pool is probably better referred to as a "downvote mana pool" not really "downvote rewards pool"

There are no rewards for downvoting, it simply draws from a different mana pool, aka voting power.

Otherwise great post @steemitblog
👍  , , , , , , ,
👎  
properties (23)
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root_title"HF21: SPS and EIP Explained"
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vote details (9)
@andrarchy ·
Great point. Thanks Net!
👎  
properties (23)
authorandrarchy
permlinkptdc7b
categorysteem
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created2019-06-19 23:06:48
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vote details (1)
@cardboard ·
Will users be able to see how much downvote mana they have used?
👎  
properties (23)
authorcardboard
permlinkptecbj
categorysteem
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net_rshares-2,462,871,767
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vote details (1)
@steemitblog ·
Post updated. Thanks!
👎  
properties (23)
authorsteemitblog
permlinkptdca5
categorysteem
json_metadata{"tags":["steem"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2019-06-19 23:08:30
last_update2019-06-19 23:08:30
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root_title"HF21: SPS and EIP Explained"
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net_rshares-1,953,452,291
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vote details (1)
@onthewayout ·
$0.05
What is the formula for the proposed reward curve?
👍  ,
👎  
properties (23)
authoronthewayout
permlinkptd7ur
categorysteem
json_metadata{"tags":["steem"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
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vote details (3)
@miniature-tiger ·
$0.21
I think that it is this: 

result = ( ( rshares + s ) * ( rshares + s ) - s * s ) / ( rshares + 4 * s )

where s is 2,000,000,000,000 (i.e. 2e12).
👍  , ,
👎  
properties (23)
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permlinkptd8pp
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root_title"HF21: SPS and EIP Explained"
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vote details (4)
@andrarchy ·
Yup, that's right
👎  
properties (23)
authorandrarchy
permlinkptd9x9
categorysteem
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vote details (1)
@onthewayout ·
Thank you!
👍  
👎  
properties (23)
authoronthewayout
permlinkre-miniature-tiger-ptd8pp-20190619t235910210z
categorysteem
json_metadata{"tags":["steem"],"app":"steempeak/1.12.2"}
created2019-06-19 23:59:12
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vote details (2)
@originalworks ·
This type of economy is very effectively used by many projects that are focused on development of their platforms. With the stagnation STEEM has experienced I believe this system could very well help re-vitalize the platform. Hoping that the tests go well and there are no major bugs, but otherwise this is very exciting.

As far as content creator cuts, I believe that by focusing on improving the platform and bringing in more users, the content creators will actually end up earning more in the long term anyways. 

Really looking forward to this and I am glad that the team as well as witnesses are staying on top of their game. Good luck with the implementation.
properties (22)
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@remlaps ·
$0.12
Will rewards drop to 0 again immediately after the hard fork?  If so, how long is it expected to take to get back to equilibrium?  Any other sorts of quirks expected during the transition period?

I hope the top witnesses remember the lessons about code audits, testing, and contingency plans from [HF20](/@remlaps/what-i-am-looking-for-from-the-witnesses).  We are counting on them to maintain stability for this blockchain.

This will be a good time for the rest of us to compare our witness votes against results.
👍  ,
👎  
properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@andrarchy ·
$0.02
That should not happen, but I will triple check that and reply back here if I'm wrong.
👍  , ,
👎  
properties (23)
authorandrarchy
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vote details (4)
@sems42 ·
Minimal =) I want to make love to the use of shape and typography! Resteem for your post,,,
properties (22)
authorsems42
permlinkptglze
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@shenkawys ·
Follow me and i will return it
properties (22)
authorshenkawys
permlinkptsbo6
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json_metadata{"tags":["steem"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
created2019-06-28 01:19:21
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last_payout2019-07-05 01:19:21
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@socky ·
$1.16
When do you plan to pursue STEEM listing on exchanges?
👍  , , , , , , ,
properties (23)
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json_metadata{"tags":["steem"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
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vote details (8)
@hungryharish ·
@socky that the real question brother

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/hungryharish)
properties (22)
authorhungryharish
permlinkhungryharish-re-socky-ptdi9k-20190628t125038505z
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json_metadata{"app":"partiko","client":"android"}
created2019-06-28 12:50:57
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@hungryharish ·
@socky thats the real question brother

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/hungryharish)
properties (22)
authorhungryharish
permlinkhungryharish-re-socky-ptdi9k-20190628t125541045z
categorysteem
json_metadata{"app":"partiko","client":"android"}
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@stablewon ·
How does the ratio of author and curation compensation change?
👎  
properties (23)
authorstablewon
permlinkre-steemitblog-hf21-sps-and-eip-explained-20190619t225654410z
categorysteem
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created2019-06-19 22:57:12
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vote details (1)
@thedegensloth · (edited)
It shows in the graphs in the post.

Also with eip it will be a 50/50 split between authors and curators.
👎  
properties (23)
authorthedegensloth
permlinkptdely
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vote details (1)
@steemingmark ·
Because of the new wallet and password changes I think there Is a lot of dapps now that you can't login and use...

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/steemingmark)
👍  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@sumit1998 ·
I think there will be a poll section in steem blockchain so that these kind of implementation can we publicly discussed. So that in future if there is any change that we want to implement can we polled in the public.
properties (22)
authorsumit1998
permlinkpten2u
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@thedegensloth ·
even if it publically discussed its the top witnesses who decide. The big power holders have given there power to them because they trust the choices the top 20 make.
properties (22)
authorthedegensloth
permlinkptezzn
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@sumit1998 ·
But after that we know that what public wants and it will make pressure on witnesses to take decisions according to that.
properties (22)
authorsumit1998
permlinkptfbn2
categorysteem
json_metadata{"tags":["steem"],"app":"steemit/0.1"}
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@theguruasia ·
$0.11
@steemitblog,
Yeah I think this graphical description of upcoming changes probably work well! 
https://steemitimages.com/640x0/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmVe4pgTyir4WnwdwwSQttUTqCJsZ26SwzGYjevbj58bjT/Screen%20Shot%202019-06-19%20at%203.02.39%20PM.png

But I still doubt how that Downvote mana thing works, coz this can leads to more issues and people might rage quit by whales who misuse this power!
So I call drama for that content!
!dramatoken


Cheers~
👍  , ,
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@valued-customer ·
Your chart is very broken.  About a third of rewards go to bidbots.  A lot of circle jerks and self votes are being cast too.  An honest chart would represent those rewards flows.  About ~10% of rewards goes to creators.
👍  
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@iflagtrash ·
It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.<br><br>PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.
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@toofasteddie ·
$0.04
I have launched a survey to know which or the witnesses are in favor and against the HF21... would be very useful for everybody to know it.
https://steemit.com/palnet/@toofasteddie/questionforthetop20witnessesabouthf21-y4bpztx3in
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vote details (5)
@flemingfarm ·
Very pertinent and should be a stickied post so they all respond. These are the important things that the whole of us need to pay attention to and voice our opinion.
👍  ,
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@toofasteddie ·
I agree...

Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://partiko.app/referral/toofasteddie)
👍  
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@travelersmemoire ·
Would it be possible to get a monthly, quarterly or yearly breakdown in regards to fund allocation?  I know a lot of people are concerned with the SteemIt power down and I think a breakdown of where those funds go could greatly help alleviate people’s worries.

Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://partiko.app/referral/travelersmemoire)
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@thedegensloth · (edited)
Well yeah once the system is made, api's will likely be made for this. The data will be public, so anyone will be able to audit the sps system.

It should also be easy to make graphs to show when new features that are developed or are released showing the effect on the market certain changes have as well.
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@travelersmemoire ·
I guess the question is how detailed it will be and how easy an audit will be.  If there’s no accountability the system could be gamed by bad actors 

Posted using [Partiko iOS](https://partiko.app/referral/travelersmemoire)
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@tts ·
To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.
[![](https://s18.postimg.org/51o0kpijd/play200x46.png)](http://ec2-52-72-169-104.compute-1.amazonaws.com/steemitblog__hf21-sps-and-eip-explained.mp3)
Brought to you by [@tts](https://steemit.com/tts/@tts/introduction). If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.
👎  
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@uyobong ·
I hope it turns out well for us. I hope Steem will scale back.
👎  
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@valued-customer ·
I strongly oppose all these proposals individually, and infinitely more strongly as one hard fork.

Individually, each part of EIP will worsen the problem they are claimed to solve.  Nothing more reminds me that Steem is a mechanism for governance, TBH.  Doubling curation rewards will increase the incentive of profiteers to extract rewards from the pool, and depress the price of Steem.  The rewards curve increases the amount of rewards extracted by larger stakes, again repressing the price of Steem.  SPS is become a tax on rewards, additional to the inflation tax, and that 10% inuring to witnesses.  The downvote pool will increase the ability of substantial stakeholders to flag lesser stakeholders by removing the expense of doing so, and this will make the extant censorship of content ineffably worse.  Lesser stakeholders will remain subject to retaliation for downvoting, and the downvote pool does not change that one bit.

None of these changes are being proposed and developed by people unaware of these issues.  I no longer credit these failures to solve the problems claimed to be addressed to naivete, but instead to reveal the exact dynamic relationship between political rhetoric and governmental action.  Profiteers are presently in possession of the majority of stake in Steem, and by extracting rewards by deployment of their stakes presently receive more than 90% of rewards.  It is no mystery to me why EIP increases the profiteering potential of stake.

However, I suspect that the investing dilletantes proposing, developing, and implementing EIP are miscalculating the harm it will do to Steem.  I predict that within 3 months of EIP implementation Steem price will be a fraction of the present price, that user retention will plummet, Steem's market cap will drop at least 10 places on CMC, and that many substantial stakeholders will sell out, abandoning Steem for greener pastures for profiteering, and the powerdowns ongoing now are preparatory to that exodus.

I strongly urge preparations to reverse HF21 be effected when these predicted affects on Steem become evident.

Further, I propose that an alternative HF be prepared in the event these predictions are correct.  Investors have been encouraged to purchase investment vehicles like stocks and Steem since prehistory by capital gains.  Extracting the rewards that are claimed to be purposed to encourage quality content creation prevents capital gains.  HF22 should be designed to limit rewards such that nominal returns cannot be extracted by substantial upvotes, and eliminate curation rewards entirely - or allow creators to set them at their sole option.  The ability to downvote should be restored to a negative financial incentive, to make it expensive to censor users.  Taking these actions will restore sound financial incentive for investors seeking capital gains, and encourage content creators to remain on Steem and make the best content they can.  

Please do both prepare to roll back HF21 if (when) it proves disastrous, and implement HF22 which will create strong capital gains instead.  Do not implement SPS as a tax.  

You're going to kill Steem if you don't prepare to rescind counterproductive code asap.  Don't kill Steem for short term profiteering.
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@iflagtrash ·
It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.<br><br>PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.
👍  , , , , , , ,
👎  
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vote details (9)
@vishalhkothari ·
The road map of sustainability seems now more powerful and with the help of proposal system steem seems more reliable then ever before.. 

Good work team 💪

Congrats and Best wishes for HF21
👎  
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@dana-edwards ·
How does a proposal system produce sustainability? Why do we need a proposal system in the first place when this could be done off chain or through witnesses?
👎  
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vote details (1)
@thedegensloth ·
Because this lowers the dependency on any organization and would allow us to have faster developments. So no more waiting on important features the community wish to have. The sps is an investment in bettering the community through the development of the chain. The more progress we make is just as good for marketing than doing actual marketing.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@zanoni ·
$0.04
Hello, 
I'm not a tech freak, I'm an ordinary not even middle class user. 
You guys forget one thing :
## Content creators are everything for Steem and every dapp build on the system. 
To tax these users And cut rewards And to help that their content get more punished is the wrongest decision ever. 
Especially during a phase where the Steem price is down anyway. 
### The best way to destroy a platform. 
To reward punishment will build a more worse climate on Steem as it is already. 
As I mentioned before already, I'm not a Dev, but there are for sure other possibilities to fix the system. 

## You can build one dapp after the other, if you have no creators they all will be useless. 

Have a great day, good luck
Tom

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/zanoni)
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vote details (6)
@dana-edwards ·
I suppose the way not to be punished is not to post? Or not to post under the same account? I don't know if this will work but the community is free to try.
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@thedegensloth ·
This should be seen as an investment to increase the features content creators can make use of. These proposals will be created by community members who will have ideas that will benefit all users. As it is steem provides very little value. This system will allow us to quickly expand our use cases and features. Wallet mobile apps, e-commerce solutions and more will make your investment and what you earn worth more if these can provide enough value.

This also lowers our dependency on any organization. Making sure steem can last a long time and have continued development support. Without the development of the backend and frontend technologies, there is no service for content creators to make money on. Yes, users are important but without good development, there is nothing for users to make use of.

This is an investment in our chains feature and I mean our chain because we all decide by staying power up that we believe in the community. Steem can no longer only be the taking community that it has been, we must invest in our future or we will continue to slip in the ranks of coins. Someone will just fork steem and do what needs to be done if we don't.

Who's to say someone won't come up with a proposal to allow the ease of user registration. There is many benefits that can come from these proposals.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
Then tax the holders of the majority of stake, rather than those who have the least of it.  You call them investors, even though they are really profiteers preventing capital gains.

The regressive taxation on the sole source of value of Steem will be far worse than you imagine.  The whales receive ~90% of the rewards for the content created by those receiving ~10% of those rewards.  The funding proposed taxes that ~10% to fund development that will profit 35 whales most of all, and who won't be paying for it.  The witnesses are dependent for their income on the votes of those whales, and this funding mechanism is perhaps the most noxious example of corruption I am aware of, since it has been proposed by the pet witnesses of those whales.

The consequences of incessant and rapine profiteering cannot be supported at a higher level than is extant, and HF21 is going to approximately halve the rewards received by content creators.  That will be a disaster for Steem.  Users will abandon the platform quickly, and angrily. The price of Steem will plummet.  Market cap will decrease further.

I predict that three months after adoption of HF21 the price of Steem will be ~10% of today's price.  It won't matter if you change your mind then, because it will be too late to try to resuscitate Steem after so much disingenuous rhetoric and blatant profiteering.   The world will lose this chance to create what Steem could have been, and you will be one of the architects of that destruction. 
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