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A safe, unsafe space by tarazkp

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· @tarazkp ·
$14.75
A safe, unsafe space
There was a comment on one of my posts today from someone who avoids confrontation here out of fear of retaliatory flags which is something I find worth having a talk about, at least from my experience. I haven't been flagged very much at all here (other than people I have flagged for plagiarism or nonsense) despite being pretty argumentative at times across many topics. 

What I have found personally is that one thing Steem is very good at is holding discussions (sometimes arguments) but without it spilling into flags. This is especially true with the more senior and invested users. I can argue with bidbot operators about their business practices, make suggestions or criticise their various behaviours and they can do the same back but it doesn't have to resort to abuse. I am not saying they are my best friends but for the most part, there is mutual respect at the higher levels when it comes to arguments, especially those concerning the platform. 

https://i.imgur.com/DbPG6jG.jpg

Of course, this all changes when things get personal and people attack the individuals themselves but, I don't really go there too often which means my arguments, even with the people involved are *nothing personal*. But, for many people they take criticism *very* personally even if it is justified or, not even pointed directly at them. 

In the lower levels there are more likely users who do not  understand much of the system and therefore do not understand the usage of flags well. They see them as something they can retaliate with. Retaliatory flags are stupid and serve no real purpose and those who are more heavily staked generally understand this. It does happen though, especially when there are personal vendettas and pride on the line or an image to uphold.   

All in all though, argumentation is usually conducted well here and most people will either engage civilly or, walk away from the argument. There is no problem with walking away unless perhaps it is walking away to avoid answering questions. I guess even then it is better than resorting to ad hominem attacks to discredit someone. 

In my opinion, argumentation is part of the road to building strong relationships through cooperation to solve problems facing both parties. This in turn is the way to also build strong communities as they are comfortable to tackle the challenges they face even if they happen to be in uncomfortable or taboo areas. 

Strong communities don't shy away from conflict, they embrace it as a question to solve. There might not be a correct answer or, the correct answer might not be possible to implement immediately but, working at the problem will *approach* the correct answer. I think this is why at the higher levels there is less retaliation as people are generally doing and saying what they believe (right or wrong) is correct, at least by them.

If the people involved in the discussions come across as being genuine in their views without being unnecessarily aggressive, most people will accept the argument as a differing of opinions and take the *'agree to disagree'* approach. There are some people I discuss things with regularly and still don't see eye to eye on much but, I can't expect everyone else to be right all the time ;)

It is good to recognize that this isn't the experience of all users here though and the less people understand the system, the more personally they seem to take arguments and criticism. As for flags, they definitely take those personally and I find those that take them the worst are the least emotionally stable. No surprise really as generally emotional instability comes with feelings of victimization and oppression.

Surprisingly, I find Steem a safe space to discuss topics as for me, the *safe spaces* that don't allow open discussion are the unsafe environments engineered to keep people separated and in eternal conflict. This political correctness, anti-bully mentality is what is creating an increasing amount of exactly what it claims to want to stop. The only way humans can really end the current conflicts is through discussion or extinction, with the latter solving all problems.. 

There is never going to be an end to arguments as we all have various views and positions and this is the same for Steem. The complexity is much too high, the incentives and desires so broad and the people with such a range of skills that no matter how good the code, humans will still be unable to agree on everything. It is because of the disagreement we tend to evolve and innovate though. Innovation is essentially someone saying, I have a better way than you.

So, the answer to a strong community isn't ending arguments, it is learning how to argue well enough that solutions are created instead of walls to defend what isn't working. Not an easy task but it is up to each individual to develop their skills to achieve this. 

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

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vote details (113)
@cryptoandcoffee ·
I find if people retaliate then it is pride or guilt forcing them to do it. I think it would most likely be both on here.
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@cryptobols · (edited)
$0.10
Do you think some of this is fallout from coming to Steemit from other social media websites e.g. facebook, twitter, etc.?

I feel like facebook and twitter have becoming hostile breeding grounds where people of differing opinions constantly flag each other.  It seems unsurprising to me that this is the case for new Steemit users.

You sum things up really well in the last paragraph (restated here for emphasis):
"So, the answer to a strong community isn't ending arguments, it is learning how to argue well enough that solutions are created instead of walls to defend what isn't working. Not an easy task but it is up to each individual to develop their skills to achieve this."

Hopefully all the new users will continue to learn this so that steemit can remain a positive place that is almost a refuge from the hostility that is seen elsewhere online.

Thanks for the writing this!

Upvoted/resteemed
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@tarazkp ·
$0.03
>Do you think some of this is fallout from coming to Steemit from other social media websites e.g. facebook, twitter, etc.?

Perhaps it is the internet in general since it gives the ability to echo chamber easily so there is less criticism to deal with. When someone finally pushes back, they retaliate instead of building an argument. People are also thinner skinned and more entitled. They think freedom of speech means *no critical response* is allowed.
👍  
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@cryptobols · (edited)
$0.10
"Perhaps it is the internet in general since it gives the ability to echo chamber easily" - That's a good point as there are so many sites that allow full anonymity and no accountability.

"People are also thinner skinned and more entitled." - Agreed... anyone can look up the famous and wealthy and feel that the same level of opulence is deserved.  When it isn't, it may translate to self image issues which could cause one to lash out.  I'm no doctor but there have been a number of studies showing self-esteem issues related to internet/social media use.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.
👍  ,
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@dailynewfeed ·
its really such nice post. yes true opinion its right have a good day
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@haikubot ·
<em>Its really such nice 
Post. yes true opinion its 
Right have a good day 
</em>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<sup>- dailynewfeed</sup>

---
<sup><sup><em>I'm a bot. I detect haiku.</em></sup></sup>
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@empress-eremmy ·
$0.07
No one should have to resort to flagging for opinions, except they are downright offensive. If we do not disagree, we might as well just be robots
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
The opinions I see flag worthy are those that are damaging to people who may not know better. Bitconnect shills come to mind as an example.
👍  
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@blog-fictions ·
What's bitconnect?
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@gustavoadolfodca ·
$0.07
I had been thinking for days that Steemit was taking a bit of Twitter behavior now. Most of all for the accounts with the highest level of reputation, it seems to me that many people have an ego boost or I do not know what they will think. But here we all are here to help, give us constructive criticism or make a good debate without reaching the flags. We all think differently and we will not agree on many issues, this is life and the point of view of each person should be respected.

That's why I think you rarely find any criticism or any other thoughts in people's posts. We are all inhibited to keep our account without such histories.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@hashcash ·
$0.07
I am not a big believer of safe spaces for men...........but that is a discussion for another time. I find this post interesting because I have faced this issue here. I am not confrontational by nature, I actually try to do my best to avoid it, but sometimes that isn't an option. So when I did get into a confrontation despite my unwillingness I wasn't flagged but actually got upvoted. Some dudes are just that awesome :-)They not only know how to take a hit, they can actually be graceful about it.

Some of the best conversations that I have had here have arisen from debate rather than being agreeable (Although I will admit that I have tendency to nod along)
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@tarazkp ·
>They not only know how to take a hit, they can actually be graceful about it.

Indeed, and I do my best to upvote comments of arguments (not all deserve) to encourage the continuation. 

>Some of the best conversations that I have had here have arisen from debate rather than being agreeable (Although I will admit that I have tendency to nod along)

Some of the biggest arguments I have had have created the best relationships. If we make it through starting from an argument, it means we can argue more as friends and perhaps solve some real issues.
👍  
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@tcpolymath ·
Most of my highest-upvoted comments have been from times I thought I was being a jerk. I'm not sure that's really how we want it to go, but it is what it is.
👍  
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@sunlit7 ·
I've upvoted some of your comments before I thought you were a jerk and some after I thought you were a jerk....I guess your a mixed bag, it really is what it is at the time I suppose.
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@heartbeat1515 ·
$0.07
> What I have found personally is that one thing Steem is very good at is holding discussions (sometimes arguments) but without it spilling into flags.

I agree with this sentences. One that I notice lately is... some of the newbies maybe didn't know yet the meaning of spamming other content and yet once they start asking for upvote in one's comment box, their post are ignore eventhough they actually have a good writting of their own.
I took the initiative to reply their comment and gave a little bit of explanantion so that they won't fall into the 'flag zone'as I called it. 
Sometimes, I think flagging without looking throughly become the cause of many abandoned account in this platform.

People are afraid to write eventhough steemit is actually a freewrite community that support good contents.(My opinion will be different for those who are taking this platform for granted)

> In my opinion, argumentation is part of the road to building strong relationships through cooperation to solve problems facing both parties. This in turn is the way to also build strong communities as they are comfortable to tackle the challenges they face even if they happen to be in uncomfortable or taboo areas.

I can't agree more with this one.

> So, the answer to a strong community isn't ending arguments, it is learning how to argue well enough that solutions are created instead of walls to defend what isn't working. Not an easy task but it is up to each individual to develop their skills to achieve this.

You have explain this part perfectly well.

> Retaliatory flags are stupid and serve no real purpose...

My understanding in english is not so good and I don't quite understand the  exact meaning of __heavily staked__...
 but in my opinion, flag actually serve the purpose of protecting this community from those who do not appreciate other original content. 

But me myself actually doesn't like the idea of flagging other content. I think it is better to leave them a comment of my thought and if they still didn't change then I will just ignore them and maybe someday they will have the initiative to write a better content.
I chose to ignore because by ignoring they will have to take a long way up and that could be the time needed for someone to truly u derstand this community litle by little.

*__Just a share of thought though__*
Hopefully none taken.
👍  
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@tarazkp ·
Heavily staked means 'large steem power holders'. Steem power (SP) is 'stake' (claim) on the pool. So, those who hold a lot of stake have more influence on how the pool is distributed. It also means they are heavily invested. 

>but in my opinion, flag actually serve the purpose of protecting this community from those who do not appreciate other original content.

Yes, this is the case and what the flag is meant for. The people using it as an attack on a person don't use it well in my opinion.
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@heartbeat1515 ·
> Heavily staked means 'large steem power holders'. 

Thank you for explaining this to me.

> Yes, this is the case and what the flag is meant for. The people using it as an attack on a person don't use it well in my opinion.

Yes I agree with you and I think we can call this kind of attitude of abusing too.
I think this kind of attitude may be one of the reason that can cause this community to collapse someday. I hope not.
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@indigoocean · (edited)
$0.06
For a very long time I refused to ever downvote anyone. I remember reading a post of yours within my first few weeks in which you said that eventually everyone uses the downvote, or something to that effect, and thinking, "no, not me." On principle, I just didn't believe in it. 

Eventually I started seeing the need for the feature (and its use) in order for the platform to be self-regulating. We each actually have some responsibility to flag when we see plagarism, trolling, spam, and some other problem behaviors.

There is a huge difference between using downvotes in this way vs. using them when you just don't like what someone is saying, but know it is their original statement, is sincere (not trolling), and is relevant to the conversation at hand (not spam). I have vehemently disagreed with a few people on here, and even gone back and forth with increasing intensity, with it pretty clear we really don't like each other. But downvoting never entered my mind, nor the chain of events. 

It may be that a lot of people don't understand the purpose of that platform feature anymore than they understand so many other features. As we discussed in one of your posts from yesterday, there is a user training deficiency around here.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
>We each actually have some responsibility to flag when we see plagarism, trolling, spam, and some other problem behaviors.

I wonder what would happen if there was one free flag a day? For most, the cost is too high to flag as it means they can't upvote. 

>As we discussed in one of your posts from yesterday, there is a user training deficiency around here.

Most don't understand much of the platform

>eventually everyone uses the downvote, or something to that effect, and thinking, "no, not me." On principle, I just didn't believe in it.

This is the other reason I don't get flagged often I guess, being *right* so often ;D
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@infidel1258 ·
$0.25
There definitely are a few bad actors who maliciously downvote minnows who friend the "wrong" whale. Ive seen that personally. 

I say what I say. I resteem and upvote what I like and consequences be damned but there are some whales with agendas that show it for sure.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@tarazkp ·
$0.06
>I say what I say. I resteem and upvote what I like and consequences be damned but there are some whales with agendas that show it for sure.

yeah there are but they are a minority but often, the visible minority.
👍  
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@infidel1258 ·
$0.06
That's right. I really do believe Steemit is mostly a great place to post and participate, but we have our problems. Idiots who have a lot of steem power and "abuse it", whatever that subjectively means, are one of the things that are holding us back. 

But I really believe if the people who want to see this place grow keep posting, talking and creating a space that invites visitors we are going to redesign this platform, more and more, into the place that we all want it to be. 

Thanks @tarazkp
👍  ,
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@informationwar ·
$0.08
Curated for #informationwar (by @openparadigm)
 Relevance; A Real Safe Space For Ideas. 
<div class='pull-left'><a href="https://steemit.com/informationwar/@informationwar/about-information-war-3-3"><img src="https://image.ibb.co/jHXRyc/logo.png"/></a></div>
 
- Our purpose is to encourage posts discussing Information War, Propaganda, Disinformation and other false narratives. We currently have over 7,500 Steem Power and 20+ people following the curation trail to support [our mission.](https://tinyurl.com/infowar3318)
 
- Join our [discord](https://discord.gg/JsXbzFM) and chat with 150+ fellow Informationwar Activists.
 
- Connect with fellow Informationwar writers in our Roll Call! [InformationWar - Contributing Writers/Supporters: Roll Call Pt 8](https://steemit.com/informationwar/@informationwar/informationwar-contributing-writers-supporters-roll-call-pt-8)
 
## Ways you can help the @informationwar
- Upvote this comment.
- Delegate Steem Power. [25 SP](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/delegateVestingShares?delegator=&delegatee=informationwar&vesting_shares=25%20SP)  [50 SP](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/delegateVestingShares?delegator=&delegatee=informationwar&vesting_shares=50%20SP) [100 SP](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/delegateVestingShares?delegator=&delegatee=informationwar&vesting_shares=100%20SP)
- Join the curation trail [here.](https://steemauto.com/dash.php?i=1&trail=informationwar)
- Tutorials on all ways to support us and useful resources [here](https://steemit.com/informationwar/@truthforce/informationwar-useful-resource-links)
👍  
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@sunlit7 ·
Imagine that, information wars showing up on a discussion about flagging.  There should be no use for flagging in information wars, it works against their whole objective yet they, like the people who they claim oppress others do exactly the same thing with the use of flags.
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@luisgfernandez ·
Hi.
I give you reason in much of your approach, but sometimes people who have time on the page as they see with displeasure the new and do not value the time and effort that some put in their publications, the discussion is good when He discusses something that can have many answers and that in the end a logical and respectable agreement can be reached.
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@lynncoyle1 ·
$0.08
I completely agree @tarazkp, and it's a matter of communication where people actually listen to someone else's point as opposed to only figuring out their next retaliatory argument.  

There's a little something I like to call *fair fighting*; no personal attacks, no insults, look for a compromise, like you stated here, agree to disagree when you can't meet that compromise, no generalizations, no degrading language,  and if you're angry, *wait* to comment the next day when you've had time to cool down :)  Works the same with relationships in our real  lives as well I think.
👍  
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@tarazkp ·
>There's a little something I like to call fair fighting; 

They say all is fair in love and war. Love I understand because love is unlimited. In war however, it is only because of the fear of losing. When it comes to understanding there is no loser, which means in a good argument, I can lose and *still win* because my understanding has grown.
👍  
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@lynncoyle1 ·
Bingo!  but you are preaching to the choir here :)  Why can't everyone just *get* this though?  What a nicer world this would be...if only.
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@markkujantunen ·
$0.07
I remember having two conversations here in the comment section of this blog on politics, religion and philosophy with one user whose views were radically different from mine. In the first of the debates we both upvoted each other's comments. In the second, that didn't happen. But I've always thought highly of that guy (I don't remember his username, unfortonately) because he tacitly agreed to monetize the debate for the benefit of both of us despite the radical difference in our views. There was never a sense of personal attack on his part despite him demonstrating blatant contempt of my views. I really respect the way he keeps people and the ideas they hold separate.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sunlit7 ·
$0.05
I apply that strategy myself with some.  Usually because either I can see some of their viewpoint and/or I respect their right to view something differently then I do.  If though I feel strongly that someone really has a warped sense of something I don't always, even at that sometimes I will just to see where we can go further on the discussion.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@tarazkp ·
$0.02
The people who actually want to work out what is what in this life argue well. Those who only want to push their views, do not as they are like religous zealots, blind to themselves.
👍  
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@infidel1258 ·
$0.25
We either seek knowledge or in our pride deny we have more to learn.

The way one argues always shows which type he is.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@markkujantunen ·
$0.07
This user that I'm talking about does, in my opinion, have very deeply held convictions that, I believe, stem partly from analysis and partly from philosophical approach based on temperament (It is quite normal for people to have their politics to be informed by their temperament). He is not stupid by any means and debating someone like that always makes one dig a little deeper and often learn something. But I'm not buying his views. There are too many holes in them, in my opinion. But for all practical purposes there exists no such thing as a worldview without flaws or failure to cover important aspects of life, universe and everything.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@meno ·
$0.07
I welcome disagreements, but the moment it goes ad hominem I clock out like a chuckee cheese employee when the buzzer goes off.

Discourse today has become for the most part full of "I got you moments" and ego stroking. So when I detect that's the intention of the person I'm having the disagreement with. I got no interest at all. I'm not going to learn, he/she is obviously not interested in perspective either. 

And what do you know? I've never flagged for disagreements...
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
Generally when people resort to personal attacks they have either lost the argument or unable to think of why they should win. 

>And what do you know? I've never flagged for disagreements...

The only times I flag for disagreement is *of reward* for me ;)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sunlit7 ·
$0.06
.....sometimes people just jump in feet first  even though they know they are not going to win, the argument had already been lost in their view a long time ago.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@ocdb ·
re-tarazkp-a-safe-unsafe-space-20180712t101028678z
You got a 30.82% upvote from @ocdb courtesy of @tarazkp!
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@princejain123 ·
$0.07
I too think that many people don't actually use these flags correctly. 
And actually due to the fear of getting flagged minnows like me are not able to properly express themselves.

See I believe that as far as nobody is getting in any personally derogatory remarks, it's fine  for me.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
smaller accounts are at a disadvantage for sure but, it also depends on the approach I think. Some people just don't argue well and become inflammatory instead of holding a discussion. Many incite retaliation.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@princejain123 ·
$0.05
Yes thats true many time people incite it but many time people get too offended to easily also.
And then they are like you are a newbie here are you gonna teach me how it works and then they flag you.

Steem should really have some kind of flag monitoring and review system.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@sift666 · (edited)
$0.06
I must admit I NEVER argue with whales because they will flag my sorry arse. 

I hate flagging and would like to see it gotten rid of.

![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmXqaEBAvzbcKrpbBa6rpBzuYWzYtxhmhHukcJ9TVYKnnZ/image.png)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
$0.06
To get rid of flags would require fundamental shifts in human behaviour that I don't think most are ready for and perhaps, some aren't capable of.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sift666 ·
$0.09
I've never seen a flagging do anything good, but they do cause a lot of power abuse and censorship.

![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmYEJ3cF5QWrQQQBBJR1F6zUpW6k6Vjexp7FMwe3PBo7ee/image.png)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sparkesy43 ·
$0.05
Sadly, I think the lower down the food chain you are, the less likely that someone will engage you in a respectful disagreement, particularly if they have a significant SP advantage over you.  Perhaps your position of relative strength discourages the aggressive flagging.

I personally copped an aggressive "retaliation flag" from someone who took exception to my upvoting a comment that they had downvoted.  It also came with an aggressive comment on my post that was downvoted, demanding to know why I dared upvote something that they had deemed worthy of a flag.

Despite my respectful response outlining my position, that person did not even have the decency to even acknowledge my reply.

Sadly, there is a bullying culture in some corners of Steemit.  Thankfully not everyone, but there are a few out there.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@tarazkp ·
>Perhaps your position of relative strength discourages the aggressive flagging.

Maybe now but, I started at zero like many others and I haven't fundamentally shifted my argumentative nature because of SP.

>Sadly, there is a bullying culture in some corners of Steemit. Thankfully not everyone, but there are a few out there.

As in all of the world's societies. Sad perhaps but wishing it away doesn't change it.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@sparkesy43 ·
$0.06
My nature hasn't been changed, but I am cautious about which battles I choose.
👍  
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@tcpolymath ·
$0.07
Most of the big accounts, when they really want to hurt someone, do it by moving their witness vote. It's not that they're not doing it.
👍  
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@tarazkp ·
For those with witnesses yes and there are other ways to show displeasure but, it is still different to the on-chain arguments of users. When it comes to witnesses, an argument may actually be a deal breaker considering that the witness makes decisions for the platform.
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@toblarone ·
Constructive, honest and factual discussions are the true strength of democracy and the basis for a good coexistence in society. We must not allow these talks to be silenced by political correctness or other destructive influences. Furthermore, I think that such conversations are the basis of any long-term successful relationship, whether business or private.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@whatsup ·
$0.07
I totally agree.  I've had some great and epic conversation/debates.  There are some people who are reasonable enough to have a conversation with.

I avoid those who just want to call names and act like anyone who disagrees is obviously wrong.  There is no purpose in having those discussions.  I love a thoughtful disagreement and it is rare that it doesn't change my perspective at least a little.
👍  
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@blog-fictions ·
At times it's so hard to win on a debate..it gets heated...
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@tarazkp ·
$0.07
>  I love a thoughtful disagreement and it is rare that it doesn't change my perspective at least a little.

It is one of the best parts about the platform and it is a shame that so few atualy use the opportunity  but instead say crap like:

"its really such nice post. yes true opinion its right have a good day"
👍  
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vote details (1)
@wolfhart ·
$0.06
people are taught that a disagreement with someones idea is a personnel attack against them. It seems to be getting entrenched in our culture. 
If you have a different opinion them the minority you some how are evil. And you are labeled and shut down before you even are giving a chance to express your opinion so it could be understood let alone challenged on ideas.
It is a dangerous path to be on because it eliminates debate.
👍  
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@tarazkp ·
$0.02
>It is a dangerous path to be on because it eliminates debate.

The skills of argument are being lost. I am not great at them myself but, I do think I am above average these days which is a little disappointing  for the future.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@wolfhart ·
$0.06
The average person only needs to be able to justify his or her opinion in an understandable factual manner. That can't even be done. 

Debating is a skill. It is one that you have to have a full grasp on the subject and keep the other guy on subject. Like any other skill the more you do it the better you get
👍  
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