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Part 1: Objections to "Death as sleeping". A look at what some of the arguments against the state of the dead. by truth-be-told

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christianity · @truth-be-told · (edited)
$39.04
Part 1: Objections to "Death as sleeping". A look at what some of the arguments against the state of the dead.
![https://i.imgur.com/BUMfCdx.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/BUMfCdx.jpg)

*[**NOTE:**  While not in the Bible, those opposed to the Bible reference of "death" as "sleeping/resting" have chosen to refer to this as "soul sleep." Why not use the Biblical term of "sleeping", I don't know...other than to just make it sound weird. ]* 

![https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png](https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png)

## The Objective

While writing my series on ["What the Bible says about the dead"](https://steemit.com/christianity/@truth-be-told/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-dead-part-1) a reader by the handle [@barncat](https://steemit.com/@barncat)  brought up some common objections to the idea that the dead know nothing, have any thoughts, memories, emotions, they can't communicate with the living and that you don't go to heaven/hell instantly upon death.  I'd like to take this opportunity to respond to each of the pieces of scripture they use to support their objection to the clear biblical teachings of the state of the dead and let's see if these arguments are valid. 

It's important to note, the inspired word of God is truth and as such, it cannot be out of harmony with itself.  As we read and study this, the only rule I want to present is *"the rule of not adding to his word."*  In other words, if the Bible didn't say that, then I will not invent explanations and inject my own reasoning.  I will not rely on tradition or even "follow the crowd" in how others view these points.  Following the larger crowd can be dangerous as we learn in, Matthew 7:14.  

![https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png](https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png)

## 1. Moses and Elijah were with Jesus at the mt of transfiguration

The argument is, if Moses and Elijah died and are resting, how can they be talking with Jesus? Clearly, Moses and Elijah are talking with Jesus, therefore they can communicate with the living. They are talking, meaning they have thoughts and emotions. And they appear to know each other, meaning they have memories.  So, is this evidence against the dead knowing nothing?  Let's take a look.

Now, before we go too far, I want to add an interesting detail.  Elijah never died.  He was taken up in a fiery chariot.  

Let's read the following text and let's see if there's anything special about this.   

![https://i.imgur.com/sRvt62Z.png](https://i.imgur.com/sRvt62Z.png)

- The Lord himself buried Moses.  This is special because it's the only time in the Bible that God does anything like this.  
- They emphasize just how special Moses is, in that, there has never been another prophet like him who knew the Lord "face to face."
- And the burial place was secret.   

These were hints that something special was about to take place.

![https://i.imgur.com/EixtqHZ.png](https://i.imgur.com/EixtqHZ.png)

![https://i.imgur.com/ZXgSm2N.png](https://i.imgur.com/ZXgSm2N.png)

This event that was going to take place was the special resurrection of Moses by the archangel.  We also see that on the final day, it's the *"voice of an archangel"* that resurrects the rest of the dead who have been sleeping.  

Therefore, it's not a strange thing to see Moses and Elijah, who represents the "Law and the Prophets" present to encourage Jesus Christ.  Once you have been resurrected, you now have a new body, incorruptible and with Gods breath (spirit) once again running through your physical body.   

![https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png](https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png)

What we've learned through studying the death and resurrection of Moses is that Moses was a special case.  He died, had a short rest and was then resurrected by the archangel.  Therefore this case cannot be used as proof that when you die you go immediately to heaven or hell.  

Need more proof?

![https://i.imgur.com/6GBFHAM.png](https://i.imgur.com/6GBFHAM.png)

We know that God loved David because it's recorded that David was a man after Gods own heart, but even David is still resting in the grave waiting for the last day for the shout of the archangel.  Even Martha knew this.   

![https://i.imgur.com/y8qkmsX.png](https://i.imgur.com/y8qkmsX.png)

This was common knowledge for the Jews, they all knew this.  

![https://i.imgur.com/M9jb6gI.png](https://i.imgur.com/M9jb6gI.png)

- He's talking about a time in the future.
- Talking about everyone who has died.
- The dead will hear his voice (The voice of the archangel).
- That future event will determine if you're going into everlasting life or damnation. 

![https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png](https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png)

### Let’s summarize what we’ve learned

- The Lord himself buried Moses.
- Moses was resurrected by the archangel.
- David is still in the grave awaiting the voice of the archangel. 
- Martha understood this is how it works.
- John teaches that a future event will take place where all who are dead will rise again at the last day.



You can't use "Moses and Elijah" as evidence and stay in harmony with all the other verses that speak of the dead not having any thoughts, memories, etc.  This can only happen when you are resurrected.  

![https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png](https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png)

#### Preview of the upcoming objections I plan on covering:

- The thief on the cross.
- The rich man and Lazarus.
- Revelation 6:9-11  "...souls of those slain calling out in a loud voice..."
- The martyrdom of Stephen  

***If  you have any others you'd like me to include please add in the comments below.***

![https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png](https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://2f97901ltsqi43cw202e80y3-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DividerLine2.png)

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πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 84 others
πŸ‘Ž  
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@balticbadger · 
An honest question... in the Bible how many people did god kill? And also how many people did satan kill? What makes him evil? Your god is a god of light my friend. So bright he can blind you. Learn to think for yourself.
πŸ‘  ,
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@barncat · 
God is just. He's just when he condemns unbelievers to hell for an eternity.
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@truth-be-told · 
@balticbadger, I understand. It’s hard to read certain things in the Bible. But to put things into perspective, when the U.S. puts people to death in prison, is it justified? When the U.S. fought against  Hitler and kills thousands of his soldiers, was that justified? 

Generally speaking, we would all agree there are justified times when people who do evil need to be put down. They have been given all the opportunity to change and do good, but they preferred evil. 

In the same way, God is just in any life He takes. Whereas the Devil takes lives without cause. There is no comparison between the two.
πŸ‘  , ,
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@balticbadger · 
Sir, those are not good examples. I was a soldier in war and I can tell you that it’s not so black and white. I was in combat and have seen death and I’m sorry to say it was never justifiable. It’s not a Hollywood movie. Many german citizens were murdered by allied bombs months before the blitz. And the us has a bad track record of killing innocent people as well. Just as in the Bible, when god flooded the earth I would have to believe children were murdered and god himself says children are innocent so how is that justified?
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@wisekricket · 
I don't have an answer to your seemingly honest questions of how many people God or satan killed; however, I might be able to answer the question of what makes satan evil. From a Biblical perspective I believe the general understanding is that Lucifer "turned" evil after his pride got in the way and instead of focusing on God's glory, Lucifer wanted to be like God and have the glory for himself. Pride and selfishness, egotistical...those traits are some things that make Lucifer a.k.a satan evil.
πŸ‘  ,
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@balticbadger · (edited)
I will state right know as a warning I don’t not believe in any version of the Bible. However I was raised catholic and am still fascinated by it. This is a serious question . And I am curious, but in a sense didn’t the devil sacrifice himself for humanity sort of like Jesus. he wanted to give humans knowledge and he was banished from heaven knowing that he would be. That seems selfless to me. I just don’t see how he is evil from the Bible. And for god to be all powerful and all knowing why would he need to banish Satan from heaven unless he felt threatened? God seems like the egotistical and selfish one needing obedient  slaves as humans to follow rules almost like his love is conditional. No disrespect intended.
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@barncat · 
Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah. What more do you need? When you refuse to accept the clear meaning of scripture you show contempt for the word of God. And when you do that you show contempt for God.
πŸ‘  
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@davemarkeddy · 
A good example to look at is in 1 Samuel 28:7-19 when Saul spoke to Samuel. Samuel was dead but God raised him temporarily _(not the witch, only God has the power to raise the dead)_ to deliver a message to Saul. 
Samuel himself asked him why did u raise me up, which implies that he was in the earth below.
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@truth-be-told · (edited)
Well, to say that *"God raised him up temporarily"* is an assumption and out of character.  This witch, was not a prophet of God, therefore how could they be working together? Is God under the witches commands to bring people up every time a witch wants? Furthermore, it would contradict the rest of scripture that speaks to the state of the dead.   
 
If this person who was dead is speaking, then they must be alive, according to the Biblical definition of what the living and dead can and cannot do.   

In other words, this "thing" that was speaking to Saul was not the prophet Samuel, it was a demon, taking the form of Samuel.  

**2 Corinthians 11:14**
"...For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." 

This is why it's important to know that the dead cannot communicate with the living.  
1. It contradicts scripture
2. These demons can give you bad advice, which you will default as truth because it's coming from someone you "know and trust."
πŸ‘  
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@truth-be-told · (edited)
What I need is context. Moses didn’t appear as a ghost. He had a real physical body because he was resurrected. Was Elijah also a ghost?

I noticed a lot of your posts are about the β€œharmony of scripture”. How do the verses I provided which explain how the dead know nothing stay in harmony with your examples?  Don’t you see them as contradicting each other?
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@blacksaiyan · 
@truth-be-told I love that your bringing the message of God here.There is a lot of lost souls that need to be saved and I appreciate what your doing here.Keep up the good work‼️
πŸ‘  , ,
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@truth-be-told · (edited)
Thanks!  I really think people need to return back to some basic Biblical fundamentals of truth.  A lot of pastors are just preaching "fluffy" and "sweet" things and ignoring some basic teachings.  

I'm just doing my part :-)
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@booster · 
<p>This post has received a 16.68 % upvote from @booster thanks to: @truth-be-told.</p>
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@conansky · 
good job. Upvote for You
πŸ‘  
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@truth-be-told · 
Thanks, I appreciate that. :-)
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@godwinzzyzx · 
Elijah did not go up to heaven. He died like every other saint before him
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@barncat · 
Elijah was taken to heaven while alive.

(2 Kings 2:7-12 NIV)  Fifty men of the company of the prophets went and stood at a distance, facing the place where Elijah and Elisha had stopped at the Jordan. {8} Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, and the two of them crossed over on dry ground. {9} When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?" "Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit," Elisha replied. {10} "You have asked a difficult thing," Elijah said, "yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours--otherwise not." {11} As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. {12} Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.
πŸ‘  ,
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@godwinzzyzx · 
Okay I have read both comments. But it negates the credibility of what Jesus said: "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me"

If Elijah went to heaven without Jesus, then it means Jesus' testimony about h being the only way to heaven is not true
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@truth-be-told · 
Jesus is God. He is the Word made flesh.  He has always existed and there is nothing that is made that was made without Him.  

Are you saying that Jesus, or the creator, did not exist until the NT?
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@wisekricket · 
I don't know that this "negates the credibility" of what Jesus said.  Who said that Elijah went to heaven without Jesus? Are you saying that Elijah went to heaven of his own human power? Because that is not what the message is here. The Bible verses that were referenced by @barncat and @truth-be-told were speaking of Elijah being taken to heaven by God. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying, but I don't see how those verses negate God or Jesus' credibility...
πŸ‘  
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@godwinzzyzx · 
Look at this: 2kings 2:7-12 Elijah supposedly goes up to heaven during the reign of Ahab. 
Yet in 2nd Chronicles 21:12 he writes a letter to Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat. Who was king at that time
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@truth-be-told · 
Not sure what your point is.  What that's got to do with anything?
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@wisekricket · 
I'm interested in what your point is; rather, I'm trying to understand it. What exactly is your point?
I read the verses that you indicated, and I also took the liberty to read the chapter before and after the account of 2 Kings 2 and Elijah and Elisha's stories... Near the very end of 2 Kings 1 it says that  "this was the second year of Jehoram, the son of Jehoshaphat, who was reigning JOINTLY  with his father in Judah." It also mentions that other things that Ahaziah did are recorded in The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel... is this what you are referring to or is there some confustion as to the harmony of what is recorded in the Bible?
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@godwinzzyzx · (edited)
Yet again see what glorious statement Jesus makes in John 3:13:
 *New International Version*
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

Even Enoch did not go to heaven.
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@truth-be-told · 
Context matters.  What was Jesus talking about right before that statement?  What point was He trying to make? 

Jesus was trying to explain spiritual things to Nicodemus that was hard for him to understand. 
He was trying to explain that no one has lived in heaven and then come here to live except the Son of Man.  He lived there before and has come back to make spiritual things easy to understand.  

No man can penetrate the spiritual world. Flesh is flesh, that is, born of the earth; therefore, it is earthly (1 Cor. 15:47). However, Jesus Christ was different from all other men. His origin was out of heaven, out of the spiritual world and dimension of being.
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@truth-be-told · (edited)
Have you read:

It was near the time for the Lord to take Elijah by a whirlwind up into heaven. Elijah and Elisha started to leave Gilgal.
2 Kings 2:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2%20Kings%202:1&version=ERV

Elijah and Elisha were walking and talking together. Suddenly, some horses and a chariot came and separated Elijah from Elisha. The horses and the chariot were like fire. Then Elijah was carried up into heaven in a whirlwind.
2 Kings 2:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2%20Kings%202:11&version=ERV
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@nawi · 
There's some very good revelations of truth in this post! Upvoted and following
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