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Hive HF25: This is huge 🔥 Back to linear reward curve? 3 phased curation curve instead of 5 minute rule. What do you think about the changes? by vikisecrets

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com
· @vikisecrets ·
$30.58
Hive HF25: This is huge 🔥 Back to linear reward curve? 3 phased curation curve instead of 5 minute rule. What do you think about the changes?
HF25 wird große Änderungen bringen: @blocktrades hat nämlich beiläufig in einem Update angekündigt, dass die umstrittene konvergent-lineare Reward-Kurve entfernt wird und später in einem Kommentar präzisiert, dass die Änderung nicht nur die Curation-Rewards sondern so wie es aussieht auch die Author-Rewards betreffen wird.

>as part of our removal of the convergent-linear curve code (this is the code that weakened small votes)

https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@blocktrades/8th-update-of-2021-on-blocktrades-work-on-hive-software

>We are taking out the code that is called out as the linear convergent reward curve. 

https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@blocktrades/qr6emi

### Kurvendiskussion

In den letzten Jahren wurde auf der Chain kaum über etwas mehr diskutiert und gestritten als über die Kurve.

Ganz kurz für alle, die vielleicht neu hier sind oder das Thema nicht so verfolgt haben.

Es gibt grundsätzlich 3 verschiedene Arten von Kurven, die man für die Berechnung der Rewards von Postings heranzeihen kann.

**Lineare Kurve**: Jeder Vote ist proportional zu seinem Stake gleich viel wert. Die Votes summieren sich auf. Das ist simple, einfach verständlich und meiner Meinung nach fair.

**Quadratische/Exponentielle Kurve**: Die Rewards steigen überproportional mit den Votes. Die Votes summieren sich nicht einfach auf, sondern die Rewards steigen überproportional. Kommentare und Postings mit wenigen Votes bekommen deutlich weniger, Postings mit vielen Votes (gemessen am Stake) deutlich mehr als bei einer linearen Kurve. Zusammengefasst: Reiche Postings werden reicher.

**Wurzel/Logarithmische Kurve**: Das wäre das Gegenteil der quadratischen Kurve. Die Rewards würden mit steigendem Wert der Votes abflachen. Denkbar wäre auch ein Cap, der die maximale Auszahlung von Postings begrenzt. Eine derartige Begrenzung hat aber bis jetzt immer wenig Zuspruch bekommen.

Die aktuelle konvergent-lineare Kurve ist eine Mischform aus Typ 1 und Typ 2, wobei kleine Votes unter 20 HIVE stark benachteiligt werden. Die Kurve wird aber später wieder linear.

Ich war immer ein Fan der linearen Kurve, da sie meiner Meinung nach einfacher und fairer ist.

Vorteil der nicht-linearen Kurve ist, dass einzelne Self-Votes weniger wert werden. Nachteil, dass einzelne Votes auf Kommentare damit auch weniger wertgeschätzt werden.

### Kehrt Vote-Selling zurück?

Kehrt durch die Änderung auf eine lineare Reward-Kurve Vote-Selling zurück? Ich denke eher nicht, da für das Aussterben des Vote-Selling eher die 50/50-Regel und Downvotes verantwortlich waren. 

Vote Selling ist mit der 50/50-Regel nicht mehr so lukrativ, man kann stattdessen den Stake einfach selber verwenden, um zu voten.

### Bots vs. Manuelles Voting

Die eigentliche Änderung, die angekündigt wurde, betrifft allerdings das unsägliche 5-Minuten-Zeitfenster, das endlich entfernt wird und durch ein dreistufiges Zeitfenster ersetzt werden soll.

Votes innerhalb der ersten 24h würden demnach den vollen Curation-Reward bekommen, unabhängig davon, wann man gevotet hat, das ist die große Änderung. 

Votes innerhalb der ersten 3 Tage nur noch die Hälfte und danach nur noch 1/8.

Das 5-Minuten-Zeitfenster hat vor allem manuelle Voter wie mich benachteiligt, da man gegen Bots und Auto-Voter als manueller Voter keine Chance hat, den optimalen Zeitpunkt zu treffen.

Deswegen begrüße ich diese Änderung würde aber die drei Zeitfenster komplett entfernen, so wie es @leofinance gemacht hat.

Keep it simple. Hive ist schon kompliziert genug.

Was haltet ihr von den geplanten Änderungen?

![blackboard-hive-1.jpg](https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/vikisecrets/244ohhPw6LPMrpe27RqmA86iUcAvVXpT9hkhBC8vAjLEURF7tN23TkhgAJmxEqjJrFJxk.jpg)

## English

HF25 will bring big changes: @blocktrades casually announced in an update that the controversial convergent-linear reward curve will be removed and later specified in a comment that the change will not only affect the curation rewards but also the author rewards.

>as part of our removal of the convergent-linear curve code (this is the code that weakened small votes)

https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@blocktrades/8th-update-of-2021-on-blocktrades-work-on-hive-software

>We are taking out the code that is called out as the linear convergent reward curve.

https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@blocktrades/qr6emi

### Curve discussion

In the last few years, there has hardly been anything more discussed and argued about on chain than the curve.

Very briefly for those who may be new here or haven't followed the topic as much.

There are basically 3 different types of curves that can be used to calculate the rewards of posts.

**Linear Curve**: Each vote is worth the same proportionally to its stake. The votes add up. This is simple, easy to understand and use, and in my opinion fair.

**Square/Exponential Curve**: Rewards increase disproportionately with votes. Votes don't just add up, but rewards increase even more with vote weight. Comments and posts with few votes get significantly less, posts with many votes (measured by the stake) get significantly more than with a linear curve. In summary: Rich posts get richer.

**Root/Logarithmic Curve**: This would be the opposite of the quadratic polynomial curve. Rewards would flatten out as the value of votes increases. It would also be conceivable to have a cap that limits the maximum payout of posts. However, such a cap has always received little support among the liberal crypto community.

The current convergent-linear curve is a hybrid of type 1 and type 2, where small votes below 20 HIVE are strongly penalized. However, the curve later becomes linear again.

I have always been a fan of the linear curve btw, as I think it is easy to explain, easy to use and it's more fair.

Advantage of the non-linear curve is however that individual self votes get less rewards. Disadvantage: individual votes on comments are thus also valued less.

### Will vote selling return?

Does the change to a linear reward curve bring back vote selling? I don't think so, since the 50/50 rule and downvotes were more responsible for the extinction of vote selling. 

Vote selling is no longer as lucrative with the 50/50 rule, you can just use the stake yourself to vote instead.

### Bots vs. manual voting

The real change that was announced, however, concerns the controversial 5-minute time window, which will finally be removed and replaced by a three-stage time window.

Votes within the first 24h would get the full curation reward, regardless of when you voted, that's the big change. 

Votes within the first 3 days only half and then only 1/8.

The 5 minute time window has specifically disadvantaged manual voters like myself, because against bots and auto-voters as a manual voter you have no chance to hit the optimal time.

That's why I welcome this change but I would remove the three phased time window completely as @leofinance did.

Keep it simple. Hive is already complicated enough.

What do you think about the upcoming changes?

## Sources
[1] @blocktrades 8th update of 2021 on BlockTrades work on Hive software https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@blocktrades/8th-update-of-2021-on-blocktrades-work-on-hive-software
[2] The new reward curve is unfair and harms bloggers and commenters earning less than 20 STEEM per post https://peakd.com/@vikisecrets/the-new-reward-curve-is-unfair-and-harms-bloggers-and-commenters-earning-less-20-steem-per-post

*Live your Secrets and Hive Prosper* 🍯

xx Viki @vikisecrets
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 89 others
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vote details (153)
@ackza ·
$0.08
yeah go back to steem classic and lower curation rewards back to 25% we never notice em anyway

lets make steem great again on hive lol
👍  
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@stayoutoftherz ·
$0.09
Depends, if you would have 100K+ HP you would definitely see a difference :)
👍  , ,
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@ackza ·
whats the err cut off before the errr noticable threshold is felkt? 100k hp? 

wheres the curve go all survey eh?

swe going back to quadratic curation on the test net with the dongle memo key witness election?
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@vikisecrets ·
Lowering curation rewards back to 25% will most certainly bring vote selling back, however.
👍  
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@ackza ·
good, we need ads
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@ackza ·
no, thats a social thing

hive$100 will cause vote buying
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@ackza ·
$0.11
your german has so much blockchain vocabulary that Its like i can read it fluent ... we are all speaking one language again
👍  ,
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@vikisecrets ·
$0.06
haha, true, but I still included an English version at the end of the post ;)
👍  ,
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@beatminister ·
$0.08
Die lineare Variante wäre sicher gerechter und einfacher zu verstehen. Sowas war allerdings bisher niemals ein Argument für Regeln bei Steemit oder Hive. Grundregel hierfür: alles so verquast wie möglich gestalten, und zwar so, das niemand es richtig versteht und am ende die Wale am meisten profitieren.
Würde mich sehr wundern wenn sich das nun ändern sollte.
👍  
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@dzone ·
$0.08
Um ehrlich zu sein, ich kenne die jetzigen Regeln nicht, brauche ich auch nicht bei meinem Kontostand. Aber wenn es große Unterschiede zwischen den Tagen nach Posten gibt, wird das Mitleidsvoten am Ende der Woche zur echten Spende... und das hat auch was.
👍  
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@fredfettmeister ·
$0.08
Sehr gut erklärt. Linear ohne Zeitfenster fänd ich auch am fairsten.
👍  
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@hatoto ·
$0.10
Danke für deine tolle Erklärung! Ich werde mir den Post als Lesezeichne setzen , damit ich das nachgucken kann, wenn ich es wieder vergesse.

Ich stimme mit dir voll überein. Die Zeitfenster führen nur dazu, dass nach einem Tag niemand mehr den Post voten wird. Ich würde mir zumindest gut überlegen, ob ich einen älteren Post vote, wenn meine Rewards derart stark beschnitten werden.

#keepitsimple
👍  ,
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@vikisecrets ·
Danke, bin schon gespannt, was kommen wird und wie es sich auf die Rewards auswirken wird.
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@investinthefutur ·
@mima2606 denkt du hast ein Vote durch @investinthefutur verdient!<br>@mima2606 thinks you have earned a vote of @investinthefutur !<br>
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@jeenger ·
Your contribution was curated manually by @mima2606<br>Keep up the good work!
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@leaky20 ·
$0.16
I completely forgot about the curve but I'm in favor of going to a more linear curve. I agree that its more fair overall. I'm also in favor of eliminating the 5 min window. The 3 stage window sounds fine to me but I see your point about keeping it simple. On a positive note it seems like the 3 stage creates an incentive for people to use the site each day. Active users are rewarded more so than people who come and go.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@vikisecrets ·
That's a good point about the 3-phased curation curve. It's an incentive to come back and vote on Hive daily, but if you discover a good post after 24h your curation rewards will be significantly reduced. This could lead to that users will stop voting for posts older than 24h like @geekgirl pointed out: https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@geekgirl/qr6i81
👍  
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vote details (1)
@leaky20 ·
$0.08
Thats also a good point. I guess there are pros and cons to both. One is better for the individual user and the other is better for the platform as a whole
👍  
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vote details (1)
@mein-senf-dazu ·
$0.08
Ich dachte das mit den 24Std./72Std. Ist bereits aktiv, hatte das sonirgend wo gelesen.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@vikisecrets ·
Die Änderung soll mit dem nächsten Hardfork (HF25) kommen.
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@mein-senf-dazu ·
Ok, danke, dachte das wäre aktiv, wohl mich verlesen.
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@mima2606 ·
$0.10
Ich bin da ganz bei Dir und würde das drei Fenster Vote System auch nicht gerne sehen. Linear und fertig! So ist es gerecht. Sollten dann die alten Lasten wieder auftreten, warum es geändert wurde kann man sich neue, andere Maßnahmen überlegen.

LG Michael 

!invest_vote 
!jeenger 
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@vikisecrets ·
$0.06
Seh ich auch so, linear ist meiner Meinung nach fairer und gibt auch neuen Bloggern mehr Chancen.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@investinthefutur ·
@mima2606 denkt du hast ein Vote durch @investinthefutur verdient!<br>@mima2606 thinks you have earned a vote of @investinthefutur !<br>
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@mima2606 ·
$0.08
😀



!invest_vote
👍  
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vote details (1)
@mima2606 ·
$0.08
Wir wollen ja auch wachsen, w<s ich am wichtigsten für die nächsten 12 Monate sehe.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stayoutoftherz ·
$0.10
Ich freue mich auf diese Änderungen! Das wird manuelles Voten und tägliches Reinschauen auf die Seite belohnen!
Super zusammengefasst! Danke. !WINE
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)