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RE: Update on Simplicity: Cutting Complexity with Steem 0.17.0 by clayop

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· @clayop ·
$5.76
> Changes to Reward Curves: Not Yet

I am disappointed by this bad news. Here's why.

> We considered proposing a move from the n^2 curve (to either modified superlinear n or a linear n), which would mean more influence on rewards for smaller holders of Steem Power than is the case today.

The way you recognize the new curve is inadequate. It's not about increasing small holder's power, but about give fair influence proportional to all holder's stake. Concentration on concentration is a big social problem in Steem IMO.

> A modification could be good, but there are game theoretic challenges that haven’t been fully modeled.

Please stop using game scheme, unless you want to create gambling site. Creativity and positiveness come from encouraging and fair social base, not from win-or-lose arena.

> Rest assured, we’ve completed the implementation. We just need to see how it functions. If it performs better than the current model, we may include it in the 0.18.0 release.

You cannot know how it exactly works until you implement it. Different rule makes different behaviors and outcomes.

> These changes are about rewarding the best content, so we’re handling any voting curve changes with care.

`n^2` has no relationship of rewarding best contents. It's all about concentration of power on few whales. And it's obvious that the current system are generating many serious problems now.

What Ned told me is that `n` will encourage self-vote abuse and hence decreases amount of reward to other authors. But this is not a fatal problem, and can be addressed with community efforts IMO. We are already not rewarding "best contents" and many people are looking forward to a flattened curve. I hope that we have the new linear curve ASAP.
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πŸ‘Ž  ,
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@deanliu ·
basically I support a flatter reward curve. however, an idea occurs to me: if some want linear (n^1) and some want or want to keep longer n^2, is it possible to fork it like n^**a** and 1<**a**<2? **a** can be decided like feed prices determined by witnesses. 

I know this doesn't make things simpler. Just a thought and welcome any criticism.
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@baah ·
It could be possible as I understand it as long as it's on the same blockchain, but that would mean new accounts and how would that translate to transferring steem from one version to another as they run in tandem and one can move their steem to the more profitable flatter reward curve if they are a minnow and the whales will see no value in doing that effectively fracturing the community.
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@deanliu ·
indeed, that's a problem. didn't think of that. thanks for the feedback.
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@clayop ·
1.x is technically not desirable as far as I am heard.
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@dennygalindo ·
The curve is the biggest reason steem has failed to capitalize on the July august sign ups..
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@dragon40 ·
$0.02
Actually, what seems to be happening now is that whales are doing their damnedest to drive new users from the system. It's disgusting.
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@snowflake ·
$0.12
New users do not get autovoted by whales so they are not impacted by this. 
Actually they are benefiting since more users have influence in the platform so they are more likely to get rewards for their posts.

The people whining about this experiment are a minority of people that gets autovoted by whales and think of steemit as their main job.  Most of them are shortsighted and are not interested in growing the value of the platform as a whole.
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@dennygalindo ·
Good point.
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@humate ·
No this is not true. I know of several instances of new users getting hit with a whale auto downvote. And their posts were less than 1SBD in total.
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@dwinblood ·
>Please stop using game scheme,

They are referring to Game Theory.    It is not about playing games or gambling.   It is a study of how as you create rules there are ways to use them exploit(*aka game*) them etc.    This is why they use the term GAME.  It is more about studying systems and rules and how people using those rules can do things.   It is intentionally trying to think of ways to exploit or take advantage of those rules and if possible try to find a way to eliminate or at least have a way to counteract the exploits.

It's not perfect.   Yet when they use the term that is WHAT they are talking about, and why they use it.   It has nothing to do with playing games, gambling, etc though all of those things ALSO are subject to game theory.

In a way LIFE itself is subject to game theory.

So when you see that word in the future hopefully that helps you know why it is used.   It is a very suitable word and is a very accurate word as long as you know what they are talking about.   If you don't then it likely is pretty confusing.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory
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@clayop ·
I knew they are using the term game theory to make people cooperate. It requires people to expect other peoples bevaviors and decide based on the estimation.
But is it really good for contents system? I don't think so. The game theory enforces people to choose posts strategically and somewhat discouraging them to freely choose what they really like.
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@dwinblood ·
$0.09
>I knew they are using the term game theory to make people cooperate. 

This is not why they are using it.   Read the wiki link I supplied you.

Game Theory is not used to shut down conversation.  It is to put into context of understanding that WANTING something means you need to think of possible ways that can be EXPLOITED if it is given to you.   

Everything has rules.   How do these rules balance each other out?  How can they cancel...

I friggin' hate the flag as it exists... for a long time I was an advocate of an up votes only system and I wrote asking for such for a good 5 months.

It was a game theory explanation that made me stop advocating for removing the down vote.

That doesn't mean I don't still want an up votes only system.   It simply means I haven't thought of a way to stop an UP VOTES only system from being extremely exploitable.   Until I can solve that I cannot advocate for removal of the down vote as it is currently the only thing that CAN negate such systems where people game/exploit the system.

This is not making you cooperate.   This is life.   Actions have consequences.   When building things from code we do them, but we also need to think about not just technical hackers, but social hackers, who will exploit weaknesses.

In an up votes only system someone could create infinite accounts up voting their own single account and over time drain the pool and be very powerful without ANY interaction from other users.   Down Votes from other users can stop this.    This is but one example.   Yet it shows how it is exploitable.

Personally I'd be willing to experiment with up votes only and having something like being able to flag stuff as spam, plagiarism, abuse and if witnesses agree they can do the equivalent of a flag or some system like that, but I don't know how feasible it will be.

Yet using the term Game Theory has absolutely nothing to do with wanting you to cooperate.   It is two words that define the situation.   They don't solve it.   They put it into context.   Every action has consequences.   Wanting something doesn't mean there may not be bad consequences so game theory is about trying to determine the positives and negatives and ideally it will be a balanced system where every positive and negative has a counter balance.

I do think the flag as it exists in steemit/busy now has more negative impact than it does positive, so I do not think it is equally weighted.    Numerically it is equivalent.    Psychologically and system impact it does not seem to be equivalent.   This is a problem, and Game Theory could actually indicate that if it were pursued with other factors such as PR, Social, Psychological, Communal perception impact.    Just on raw money, votes, and reputation though it is equivalent.
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@tibonova ·
> The game theory enforces people to choose posts strategically and somewhat discouraging them to freely choose what they really like.

I know you've written that in the context of author rewards, but this is why I'm against curation rewards.
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@snowflake · (edited)
@dwinblood

You are correct about game theory. The thing is that no one really explained how n^2 prevents people from gaming the system. Apparently this curve was meant to discourage self voting so the assumption is that self voting is a problem. Here I explained briefly why self voting is not a problem https://steemit.com/steem/@snowflake/reward-curve-doesn-t-discourage-self-voting

Self voting is like trolling, someone who were to do it repeatedly and excessively would get downvoted, put on the cheetah list and lose reputation in the process. 
Also anyone who actually chose to upvote themselves will earn very little curation rewards as they would be wasting their power on post/comments with no community support.

Like I already said, the curve is similar to government banning encryption because a few terrorists used it to commit their crime. You basically penalize everyone because a few bad apples. ( which I havn't even seen yet on steemit) 
Self voting should be dealt with downvotes not some curve that maximize the effect of stake disparity and remove the incentives for minnows/dolphins to buy steem power.
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@dwinblood ·
I'd be fine with removing self voting, I considered that, then I applied game theory type thinking and realized all I'd have to do is create another account and have them vote on each other.   Suddenly I bypassed the restriction on self voting.   That is an example of game theory thinking.

Part of the problem is that there are some BIG PROBLEMS that we haven't found a good code solution for.    So we do need to experiment, but we need to do it at the code level and set a time period for how long before reviewing the results.

That would remove guessing, and speculating about who is right and who is wrong which just leads to decision paralysis.

I think we need to experiment with some things other than n^2 and while that is not in 0.17.0 there is a good chance it will be in 0.18.0.
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@justinashby ·
"*Hmm...* that's a **grounded** view of things, for you see, without the *ground* one could not tell where the *sky* begins." **- Justin Harvey John Ashby**
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@sneak ·
We still intend to do so. It's coming.
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vote details (1)
@clayop ·
$0.69
IMO, the "We" should be this community together, not only the devs.
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vote details (5)
@abit ·
You have the point.
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vote details (6)
@smooth ·
A downvote was applied to partially counter earlier whale votes as an experiment to reduce whale domination of voting influence. Not intended to express an opinion on the content nor result in a net reduction of rewards or reputation (automated notice)
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vote details (6)
@sneak · (edited)
$0.06
The dev team makes the releases; without working and reliable software, no amount of community decisions result in any changes.  The bottleneck isn't the community, but software development.

That said, what I said is still true: We (the community together) still intend to do so.  It's coming.
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vote details (3)