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The curation problem of HIVE. / Das Kurationsproblem HIVEs. by jaki01

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hive · @jaki01 · (edited)
$56.62
The curation problem of HIVE. / Das Kurationsproblem HIVEs.
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English
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<br>
"Problem" again, isn't everything going well? Doesn't the <a href="https://hive.blog/hive-133987/@penguinpablo/hive-vs-steem-stats-saturday-june-27-2020">comparison</a> of @penguinpablo show that on HIVE many more people are voting than on STEEM?
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Yes, that may be the case, but today my topic isn't the <em><b>quantity</b></em> but the <em><b>quality</b></em> of the given upvotes.
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For me, manual curating on the HIVE is currently proving to be quite frustrating: posts of certain authors, no matter what they write about, always show a considerable pending reward after only a few minutes, while others, no matter what they write, earn next to nothing. So doesn't the quality of a post, its <em>content</em>, matter at all?
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The decisive factor is the <em>content</em>, not the <em>author</em>!
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Now I would like to go into more detail about one of the main problems of most curatorial attempts:
<br>
Just recently I read the following post of @theycallmedan: "<a href="https://hive.blog/tophivers/@theycallmedan/tophivers-initiative">#TopHivers Initiative</a>". No doubt, that's well meant ... but is it also effective?
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In my opinion, it is not useful to divide authors into categories such as "good", "medium" or "bad". The idea behind it is to be able to say 'lazily', "Author X produces <em>always</em> good posts, so I save myself the trouble of reading, but upvote him automatically (no matter what he writes)!"
<br>
This is similar to not listening to my interlocutors (or also certain journalists or politicians) because I 'know' that person A always says reasonable things, while person B is always wrong. So it is much easier to automatically agree with one person and disagree with the other than to really <em>listen</em> to what they say in a <em>specific</em> case.
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But just as one should listen properly to one's discussion partners, in my opinion, really good curating means only upvoting <em>those</em> posts that one has actually READ. This would help to keep the "good" author from getting too lazy because he would have to prove again and again that he really is <em>good</em>, and give the "bad" author the chance to be rewarded for improving.
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<p>
So it shouldn't matter WHO says something, but WHAT he says, and it shouldn't matter WHO writes something, but WHAT he writes, and to find that out, the listener has to LISTEN and the reader has to READ! :)
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On HIVE too little <em> is read</em>!
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However, there is far too little reading, concrete evaluation and commenting on HIVE. This is due to the inherent (and quite understandable) laziness of the human being as well as the <a href="https://hive.blog/steem/@jaki01/bad-effects-of-the-small-curation-window">'five-minute-curation-window'</a>, which in my opinion is extremely counterproductive and punishes real curators, as it almost forces them to quickly (automatically) upvote posts to get their piece of the 'curation cake'.
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<p>
On the one hand we all know that life punishes those who delay (vote too late).
<br>
But on the other hand those who come too soon... :-) ... have no time for reading.
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<p>
Isn't it true that since the changeover to 50 % curation rewards, the voters are so princely rewarded anyway that it appears legit to expect a little 'real' manual work from them?
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https://files.peakd.com/file/peakd-hive/jaki01/T3aB4ZZN-image.png
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<p>
Source/Quelle: <a href="https://pixabay.com/de/photos/teddyb%C3%A4r-teddy-b%C3%A4r-stofftier-tier-2855982/">pixabay</a>.
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Deutsch
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Schon wieder "Problem", läuft nicht alles bestens? Zeigt nicht der <a href="https://hive.blog/hive-133987/@penguinpablo/hive-vs-steem-stats-saturday-june-27-2020">Vergleich</a> @penguinpablo's, dass auf dem HIVE vieeel mehr gevotet wird als auf STEEM?
<br>
Ja, das mag sein, aber mir geht es heute nicht darum, <em><b>wie viel</b></em> gevotet wird, sondern <em><b>wie</b></em>.
</p>
<p>
Für mich stellt sich manuelles Kuratieren auf dem HIVE derzeit als recht frustrierend dar: Auf den Posts bestimmter Autoren liegt, egal worüber sie schreiben, bereits nach wenigen Minuten ein beträchtlicher 'Reward-Berg', während andere, ebenfalls egal, was sie schreiben, so gut wie nichts verdienen. Ist es also völlig egal, <em>was</em> jemand schreibt?
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Entscheidend ist der <em>Inhalt</em>, nicht der <em>Autor</em>!
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Ich möchte nun etwas näher auf eines der Hauptprobleme der meisten Kuratierungsversuche eingehen:
<br>
Kürzlich las ich folgenden Post von @theycallmedan: "<a href="https://hive.blog/tophivers/@theycallmedan/tophivers-initiative">#TopHivers Initiative</a>". Das ist zweifellos gut gemeint ... aber ist es auch zielführend?
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Meiner Meinung nach ist es nicht sinnvoll, Autoren in Kategorien wie "gut", "mittelgut" oder "schlecht" einzuteilen. Die Idee dahinter ist doch letztlich, 'faul' sagen zu können "Autor X produziert <em>immer</em> gute Posts, also erspare ich mir die Mühe des LESENS, sondern upvote ihn gleich automatisch (egal, was er schreibt)!"
<br>
Das ist so ähnlich, wie wenn ich meinen Gesprächspartnern (oder z. B. auch bestimmten Journalisten oder Politikern) gar nicht mehr richtig zuhöre, weil ich ja 'weiß', dass Person A immer vernünftige Dinge sagt, während Person B stets falsch liegt. Da ist es doch viel einfacher, dem einen automatisch zuzustimmen und dem anderen zu widersprechen, als wirklich <em>zuzuhören</em>, was sie im <em>konkreten</em> Fall sagen.
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Genauso, wie man aber Gesprächspartnern richtig zuhören sollte, bedeutete wirklich gutes Kuratieren m. E., nur <em>solche</em> Posts upzuvoten, die man tatsächlich GELESEN hat. Das trüge dazu bei, den "guten" Autor nicht zu bequem werden zu lassen, denn er müsste ja stets von Neuem zeigen, tatsächlich <em>gut</em> zu sein, und dem "schlechten" Autor die Chance zu bieten, dafür belohnt zu werden, sich zu verbessern.
</p>
<p>
Es sollte also nicht darauf ankommen, WER etwas sagt, sondern WAS er sagt, und genauso wenig sollte es darauf ankommen, WER etwas schreibt, sondern WAS er schreibt, und um das herauszufinden, <em>muss</em> der Zuhörer ZUHÖREN und der Leser LESEN! :)
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Auf HIVE wird zu wenig <em>gelesen</em>!
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<br>
Auf HIVE wird jedoch viel zu wenig gelesen, konkret bewertet und kommentiert. Dazu trägt neben der dem Menschen innewohnenden (und durchaus verständlichen) Faulheit auch das m. E. äußerst kontraproduktive und echte Kuratierer bestrafende <a href="https://hive.blog/steem/@jaki01/bad-effects-of-the-small-curation-window">'Fünfminutenkurationsfenster'</a> bei, das geradezu dazu zwingt, schnell (automatisch) upzuvoten, um sich ein Stück des 'Kurationskuchens' zu sichern.
</p>
<p>
Und wir alle wissen ja, wer zu spät kommt (votet), den bestraft das Leben.
<br>
Andererseits: Wer zu früh kommt ... :-) ... hat keine Zeit zum Lesen.
</p>
<p>
Ist es aber nicht so, dass seit der Umstellung auf 50 % Kurations-Vergütung die Upvotenden ohnehin so fürstlich belohnt werden, dass man ein wenig 'echte', manuelle Arbeit durchaus von ihnen erwarten können sollte?
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@abh12345 · 
Overvalued.
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@jaki01 · (edited)
Lol, you are just angry, and took it personal, that I flagged your <em>completely OVERVALUED</em> <a href="https://peakd.com/hive-152232/@abh12345/plane-selfie">selfie post</a> (which is an excellent example of what I described in my article: most users <em>automatically</em> upvote <em>authors</em>, not <em>content</em>).
However, if you were honest, you would recognize yourself that my flags were more than justified.
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@abh12345 · 
Absolutely, I just didn't have time to write a reply before takeoff - I did write something on the plane though...


As you may have guessed, I am here due to my downvote - well done for finding my worst post for a long time.

<sub> I choose not to post daily because I have done what a social network allows, made some friends, and gathered a number of auto-votes.  There is a level I must adhere to each time I produce a post, because I know it will be seen via the votes.  I don’t enjoy this pressure, but there are worst things in life.</sub>

For this post, it tells me absolutely nothing I do not know, and therefore the value is 0 to me.
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@acidyo ·
$2.48
To be honest I was expecting more details in this post, but to respond shortly, yes. Automated voting compared to manual is way more profitable and manual curators are not only being disincentivized to read and curate manually but long form content is also being discouraged. People will either "manually" vote on something from a known author that looks long and decent without reading cause they don't want to miss out on the CR when they stumble upon those posts (I'm not completely innocent in this case either but I'm blaming my health reasons for not curating the way I have been before). So the 5min window is incentivizing short form content or content that takes little time to decide on the curation, such as art, a song, a poem, comic strip, etc.

You may understand that as a manual curator I really dislike autovotes, even though I see the merit they have the negatives that follow and affect most of the authors that get used to it and "abuse" it weigh down on everyone on the platform. This is why a lot of posts that trend have very little engagement and in a way it is not letting the hivemind decide what should be trending based on their interests and stuff they actually do read but who the big accounts, trails and front-runners are choosing at certain periods. At the same time the difference in rewards is very big, I recently went auto on an account just to test this and I was making over 4x more curation rewards than I am on my main account. It's backwards and will need some adjustments.

Another issue is the way curation rewards reward early voters and something that's been happening more and more often lately which is kind of backfiring instead of helping content discovery is being there early or being there early and it won't matter if someone else agrees with your curation to add their vote on top of yours cause the rewards you get are decent anyway. What I mean by this is that when certain big accounts see posts that already have $1-10 in votes they won't even care if the author cured cancer here and now, they are going to skip voting it to not risk being the last account to vote on the post which causes a chain reaction of other's doing the same. Often finding posts that have close to no rewards and voting on them to get their piece of the pie when many times there might be a reason that post is at 0 or close to it. Finding posts that are so low and exceptionally good is not only rare because there still are some manual curators of all sizes but as you say it requires work and people prefer to either be semi-auto or lazy. At the same time some accounts are choosing to curate these posts without spending time to actually curate, they just throw 10 votes onto whatever thumbnail looks good and as long as the post is under $1 or less and go on about their day - this is why using your downvotes will be more and more important for reward disagreement but not going to get into that now. 

So there's more than one thing now disincentivizing long form content, both the 5min window and authors realizing that big accounts will avoid stacking votes on content that already has decent votes on it like the plague no matter how amazing the content is. This is also something I wrote about pre-HF and why I was a bit uncertain with your post to downvote anything making "over x amount of $" in the beginning of Hive if I remember correctly. I realize the point you had but to me it seemed like disincentivizing curators who don't care about maximizing their rewards and do vote late with downvotes and disagreement on rewards because they feel something is over-rewarded. This has now created a loop where the big accounts vote with tiny votes and spread them as much as possible, often also on posts that may not even deserve a small vote because they know they'll get the most out of it as curators. I've even seen certain accounts wait for an authors 3rd or 4th post to vote because they know many autovotes stop after 1-2 posts and they'll get the most out of it in CR with their identical 10% votes making so many posts hit the same identical rewards and along with no engagement and regard for the content you can see how automated, bottish it all looks even if it's manual. I don't have to name names, we can all go and check out how accounts are curating and when most of their votes are cast and how many other votes exist on the posts they vote.

Anyway, while this helps distribution it's pushing the autovoted posts onto trending because most of the possibly manual ones avoid voting late while the rest just focus on front-running or being the sole voters on certain posts.
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vote details (20)
@denmarkguy ·
$1.18
It is an excellent answer/explanation **@acidyo,** and what I mostly want to add here is that it takes us back to the same issue that was always circling the drain on Steem: Is this seen as a *content creation venue* or just as a *money dispenser?*

Further to that... for the future growth and success of the entire Hive ecosystem, I think we need to be *very careful* in terms of how we *describe* Hive to potential new people. As I have said *(about 6.5 million times!)* as long as the primary *sales pitch* is *"come to Hive to make money"* the people who will be *attracted* to that will really not care very much about the content they create... they are purely going to focus on optimizing their rewards. And so, that particular snake will continue to eat its own tail.

So then the only way to *change* things is to start focusing on *community and content creation.* But there are a lot of people *already embedded* here who won't agree that's a good idea. 

I have recently started creating posts that are *entirely for "external" consumption,* and it's interesting to see just *how many* page views some of them are getting. Now, whether that translates into *new signups* remains to be seen... but at least we have some *tools* now, like Hiveonboard, and such.
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@acidyo ·
$0.35
Yeah, I think it's pretty clear by now that we don't want to make the same mistakes as we did on steem in the first couple years, same thing regarding these conspiracy posts trending constantly. No offense and while we are an immutable platform we also focused on such and anarcho content too much in the beginning and too much of one thing is never good, especially not for a decentralized platform. So yes, while I agree that money shouldn't be the focus it is sad that so many here today and in charge of a lot of influence of the reward pool focus mainly on the ROI of stake instead of the value and outreach of it. 

It's sad that those actively giving up on rewards because they want what is best for the platform have others riding on their backs indirectly taking their hive rewards and at the same time not helping.
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vote details (4)
@jaki01 ·
$0.57
> To be honest I was expecting more details in this post, but to respond shortly, yes.

I just focussed on trying to make my main idea as clear as possible:
It isn't expedient to seek 'great Hiveians' and then lazily upvote them again and again. In my opinion we should look for 'great <em>content</em>' instead of 'great people'. I consider it essential to recognize that.

Thank you for starting an interesting discussion in the comment section and mentioning many additional aspects.

> So the 5min window is incentivizing short form content or content that takes little time to decide on the curation, such as art, a song, a poem, comic strip, etc.

I think <em>especially</em> it is incentivizing <em>auto votes</em>, because if you don't do that, others will be faster than you.
What you write is true, but in my eyes a side effect only (because short or long: most auto voters don't read anyway).

> You may understand that as a manual curator I really dislike autovotes ...

Same here.
I guess that a (moderately) short curation window <em>without</em> auto votes would be actually fine. But the <em>combination</em> of short curation window <em>plus</em> auto votes is deadly for manual curation.

> I recently went auto on an account just to test this and I was making over 4x more curation rewards than I am on my main account.

That's just sad in my eyes.

> Another issue is the way curation rewards reward early voters and something that's been happening more and more often lately which is kind of backfiring instead of helping content discovery ...

Exactly!
And I admit to avoid upvoting certain posts when I see that some of the most extreme auto voters were already there. :)
As explained in the <a href="https://peakd.com/steem/@jaki01/bad-effects-of-the-small-curation-window">already mentioned post</a> I just don't like to further increase their curation rewards. In my case the decision of upvoting or not sometimes depends on <em>who</em> has already upvoted the posts (not only on the pending rewards).

> This is also something I wrote about pre-HF and why I was a bit uncertain with your post to downvote anything making "over x amount of $" in the beginning of Hive if I remember correctly.

Actually, it was more like a symbolic gesture to make people think about why someone is flagging all the trending stuff. These downvotes were not strong enough to have any real impact - but I wanted to make people aware of how much circle voting is taking place here.
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vote details (5)
@acidyo ·
$0.22
Okay I wasn't going to say something in the previous comment about your title but since you're saying "here" to the circlejerking I really hope you're not comparing with the centralized version of Hive. Might just be a coincidence but compared to what is going on over there our problems barely scratch the surface. 

But alright about your point with the downvotes, I've had to tell a lot of people lately that many may be getting downvotes because the downvoters don't like the curators but as long as the dv isn't bigger than the uv it should be "okay" but obviously that is difficult to understand for them.

> I just don't like to further increase their curation rewards. In my case the decision of upvoting or not sometimes depends on who has already upvoted the posts

I am guilty to this as well but you must realize that it's a bit similar to your point in the first paragraph that it should be about the content and not the author except here it's about the curator, not the author and still not the content. While this also hurts some times I do vote on posts even though they already have votes from the usual suspects and that's because of the content and the spread in votes on many authors they are forced to place. It's also really backwards that you'd want to vote someone up and you feel the content deserves more rewards you don't want to feed the maximizers and it especially sucks when you go out of your way to still do so and notice later someone else downvoted the post because they felt it was over-rewarded. 

We got a long way to go to find a better balance, maybe it even finds itself over time but one thing is still for certain. We are facing challenges and problems the majority of competitors are not even close to thinking about as they're still at the foot of the mountain while we're trying to figure out how to divide the top and who gets to put the tent in the middle of it. ~random anology don't overanalyze it. :P
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vote details (2)
@acidyo ·
$0.09
Rereading my comment I realize you don't always avoid voting on content because of certain front-runners so I didn't mean to say you do.
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properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@acidyo ·
$0.12
Oh and btw, my first sentence I didn't mean there was anything wrong with the post, was just thinking there's a lot more problems hence my short reply turned very long once I started thinking about some of them. :P
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vote details (2)
@kristyglas · (edited)
$0.03
> as long as the post is under $1 or less

This seems like the saddest part, from experience anyone posting regularly (and consistent quality) gets $1 within the first hour. However lack of comments can be more discouraging, especially for anyone used to other platforms. They might not even expect payouts, but the lack of visibility is kind of problematic.

Communities were a great addition, since they make it easier to discover interesting content. However, more personalized recommendations would be neat, other than the users we follow. Or maybe a way to filter posts, I remember curie has a website like that last year, filtering posts based on word count, pictures, words, payout, etc. Making that available to everyone would maybe help? People that are happy with their current earning they might not care about doing any extra steps, but smaller accounts might find content they can enjoy and interact with. Having more comments can be really motivating and finding like minded people. 

Edit: I tried curating last year and it was so much harder than I imagined. Made me respect curators way more and it's really worth for others to give it a try just to see what it's like.
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vote details (2)
@lacking · 
:/ Marky has me on an autovote that gets me $2-4 per post which has totally ruined my chances of attaining a vote any higher.

It's like he blacklisted me without blacklisting me.
properties (22)
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@autobodhi ·
$0.03
I'm happy to bear that burden for you ;)
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properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@vikisecrets ·
$0.05
Maybe one solution would be to change the curation calculation and remove the ordering of the votes entirely, so that it does not make a difference when you vote for content. Bots would not have a time advantage any more, on the other hand users would not be incentivized for being the first ones to discover new content. Or some mixed system, by reducing the importance of the ordering and also incentivizing late manual voting.
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vote details (3)
@edje ·
$0.03
I would love to see a random channel as the primary channel of posts. This gives more or less equal chance for a post to be discovered. Am being vocal about this various times in the past three years; Unfortunately none of the developers adopted this in their frontends.
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properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@ewkaw ·
$0.32
> on the other hand users would not be incentivized for being the first ones to discover new content. 

But maybe that would actually be a good thing. Why being first? 
Right now a post that 2-4 days old is basically invisible and dismissed. Without the pressure to be first, the very same 2-4 days old post could actually still have a chance to be discovered.
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vote details (5)
@acidyo ·
$0.21
PS. I wish some autovotes would allow for more parameters/preferences such as text length, etc. It hurts my soul when I sometimes just wanna post a short question in the "ask the hive" community or a stream and see the autovotes roll in while other times I may write something I'd be happy to see on trending and hope it would get others to read and engage with me about the topic and at random those would not get the same amount of autovotes. It's really annoying especially as a manual curator and many times it makes me decide not to post because I may not have 1h+ that day to spend on a post and knowing that if I write something shorter I may have to downvote it but don't want to discourage voters for the times I do want to write more important posts. It's kind of a pandora's box but I guess also kind of a first world problem to have and I shouldn't be complaining cause things are kind of tight nowadays in my finances.
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properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@kristall97 · 
> PS. I wish some autovotes would allow for more parameters/preferences such as text length, etc. It hurts my soul when I sometimes just wanna post a short question in the "ask the hive" community or a stream and see the autovotes roll in while other times I may write something I'd be happy to see on trending and hope it would get others to read and engage with me about the topic and at random those would not get the same amount of autovotes. It's really annoying especially as a manual curator and many times it makes me decide not to post because I may not have 1h+ that day to spend on a post and knowing that if I write something shorter I may have to downvote it but don't want to discourage voters for the times I do want to write more important posts. It's kind of a pandora's box but I guess also kind of a first world problem to have and I shouldn't be complaining cause things are kind of tight nowadays in my finances.

We try to solve exactly this problem with the CommentCoin.
You are welcome to inform yourself about it. @commentcoin
This is intended to reward comments at the end of the day that are related to the author's text and to create discussion by starting a discussion and feeling motivated by a reward.


With the CommentCoin AI we look of course, that we can completely exclude spam.
We are already very far with the programming and the AI is already learning hard ;)
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@agmoore ·
$0.43
We need to attract people who enjoy community and find the crypto to be an added feature.  I think if substantive comments could somehow be tied to curation rewards that would be helpful. I think if a vote without a comment (not spam) was worth less than one with a comment, you might see more reading.  
I don't understand the whole idea of the 5 minute window.  It seems geared to increasing raw profit taking.   I know this is a crypto sphere, but in the long run, the more interesting the platform and the more engaged the participants are, the great the return on everyone's investment.
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properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@jaki01 ·
$0.93
> I think if a vote without a comment (not spam) was worth less than one with a comment, you might see more reading.

Interesting idea!

> I don't understand the whole idea of the 5 minute window.

The idea is that without that 'curation window' bots could always vote faster than everybody else.
If <em>with</em> curation window bots vote instantly/very fast they will get no/a low curation reward, so that they have to wait and try to find the best moment to vote. And that's not so easy, because if they upvote for example exactly after five minutes, that doesn't necessarily mean a maximal curation reward in case many other users have upvoted the post earlier (for example after four minutes).

However, <em>real</em> curators have no chance to <em>read</em>, <em>evaluate</em> and upvote a post within five minutes, which means that auto voters get the biggest part of the curation reward in 99 % of the cases.
I think that either we should have a very large 'curation window' where it would be very difficult to guess, when an upvote leads to maximal profit or no 'curation window' at all, so that curation reward only depends on the vote weight but not on the date of the upvote (in my opinion it's a complete myth ot the manual curator who spots precious content early and should get rewarded for his efforts - that may happen as an exception, but most of the time auto votes come in early, whereas manual curators follow).
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vote details (3)
@agmoore ·
$0.10
Thank you for that explanation about voting.  Too complicated for me to try and understand (for my own use).  I just have fun and vote.  My regret is that there is vote rationing.  I love to vote :)
👍  
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vote details (1)
@alucian ·
$0.17
Ich lese sehr viel hier, an sich, lese ich die meiste Zeit, welche ich hier bin. Danach kommt das kommentieren und die Votes und Rewards, interessieren mich inzwischen nicht mehr, sie stellen kein "echtes" Bild dar, wie Du richtig anmerkst.

Genauso aber, achte ich darauf:

* Mich nicht selbst zu voten!

* Wann andere sich selbst voten!

* Ob andere ordentlich und gerne Schreibarbeit hier herein geben oder "nur" ihre Bildchen posten um den Autoupvote-Reward abzuholen.

* Wer viel liest! 

* Wer sich als "unangepasst" an dem System "HIVE" erweist und sich selbst treu bleibt.

* Das WAS geschrieben wird, viel zu oft außerhalb meiner Interessen liegt und ich es mir genau deswegen gerne mal näher ansehe.

Für mich ist es nicht nur eine Frage des sicherlich nicht perfekten Systems, hier auf dem HIVE, sondern vor allem, wie man sich hier zeigt, in seinem Handeln.
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vote details (2)
@andyjaypowell ·
$0.22
Interessanterweise ist Dein Post ein Beweis dafür, daß doch noch Post gelesen und diskutiert werden. ;-)
(aber ich weiß natürlich, worauf es dir ankommt, und worauf du hinaus willst).

Das 5 Minuten Fester ist krass. Und als ich neu auf Steem war, fand ich es auch krass, daß man nur 7 Tage auf einen Post voten kann. So mancher Post wird doch erst viel später entdeckt. Aber das ist sicherlich ein Dauerbrennerthema, das schon 1000x diskutiert wurde.
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vote details (4)
@atego ·
$0.03
Der Bekanntheitsgrad schlägt hier zu
der selbe Post von einem weniger bekannten Account wäre sicher mehr oder weniger untergegangen 
VgA
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properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@andyjaypowell · (edited)
Es wäre ja wohl auch total unfair, wenn Reichweite, die man sich in den meisten Fällen (und bei jaki trifft es sicher zu) hart erarbeitet hat, keine Auswirkung hätte.  Erfolg muß man sich erarbeiten.  Zumindest sollte das sein. Die Tendenzen, dieses auszuhebeln, sehe ich leider viel zu oft und aller Orten.  ;-)
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vote details (2)
@jaki01 · 
Siehe auch meine direkte Antwort auf den Kommentar von @andyjaypowell ...
properties (22)
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@jaki01 ·
$0.03
> Interessanterweise ist Dein Post ein Beweis dafür, daß doch noch Post gelesen und diskutiert werden. ;-)

Der 'Zaubertrick' war es, den #hive-Tag zu verwenden. ;-)

Ich bin jedoch der Meinung, dass 'HIVE' viel zu selbstbezogen ist. Weitaus gesünder wäre es, wenn auch den 'Normaluser' interessierende Themen entsprechende Beachtung fänden (vor allem vor dem Hintergrund der angestrebten 'Massenadoption').
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properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@andyjaypowell ·
$0.08
Das fiel mir damals auf der Urplattform Steemit auch auf. Ich kam da mit meiner Mucke und habe nur was von Krypto gelesen. Das ist eben alles immer noch in den Kinderschuhen. Und ehrlich gesagt finde ich es ganz gut, daß es nicht dieses Massenpublikum gibt. Wenn ich das will, kann ich auch zu YT, FB etc. gehen. Aber das will ich ja gerade NICHT. Überhaupt nicht... ;-)
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@arynews195 · 
So cute
👎  ,
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vote details (2)
@atego ·
$0.16
Hallo @jaki01 das was Du hier beschrieben hast kenne ich nicht anders seit dem ich Ende Januar 18 auf Steem meinen Account ins Leben gerufen habe.
Hin und wieder wird darüber geschrieben aber  geändert hat sich nichts 
Auch die gekauften Votes verzehren das ganze Bild und den Reward Pool 
Ich sehe zwei Probleme 
Das Sympathie Problem 
und das Gier Problem 
Und an keinem wird sich was ändern 
Du hast das Problem sehr treffend beschrieben 
und an den votes sieht man das anscheinend viele Interesse besteht 
Das „aber“ höre ich jetzt schon in einer Diskussion über das Problem.
Das sind die Mechanismen eines Klüngelverein!
Dein Post gefällt mir sehr gut! 👍 
Ich vote auf Hive nur ab, zu 90% ohne zu lesen zwei Blockchain sind mir zu viel darum tausche ich auch in Steem um 
VgA
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properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@borislavzlatanov ·
$0.24
Great post! I'd like to bring in another aspect: what about comment curation? If there's a good post that already has a high reward, why not go inside and check out the comments? Post a quality comment, get an upvote from the post author and maybe others, and upvote quality comments yourself. Wouldn't that amount to getting more rewards? I would think so, especially if more people consider comment curation and you know that you can get upvoted for quality comments. It seems to me this approach can tackle multiple problems at once: people not reading the posts, little engagement, autovoting, chasing posts that can give the highest curation ROI, etc.

What do you think?
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properties (23)
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vote details (2)
@jaki01 ·
$0.03
> If there's a good post that already has a high reward, why not go inside and check out the comments?

I always do that! :)
👍  
properties (23)
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vote details (1)
@bubke ·
$0.47
I see this post, i start reading this poat, after a few paragraphs i already decide this is surely worth a full upvote (you have to decide quick as you mention).  Unfortunately i see reward on 28.42, i never upvote posts with such high rewards.  My curation is thus profit based, not content based.  I read the post till the end though :-)

The most clever minds have tried to find better ways, there is no better without other things getting worse, put your chess mind to it and surprise us

ok, let me make an exception and upvote :-)
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@jaki01 · 
;-)

> ... put your chess mind to it and surprise us

I think the short curation window <em>combined</em> with the option to auto vote is a big problem for manual curation.
properties (22)
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@chekohler ·
$0.10
I think that we all know this is a problem but it’s an accepted problem and a short/medium term problem! The distribution of the inflation by curation is only one way to move the coin 

There’s also staking which is at a 3.25%, theirs tipping, theirs transfers, delegating to projects, theirs contests and giveaways and soon there will be more ways to earn 

As old users sell they give the chance for new users to buy! As more users become dolphins and orcas they can distribute more of the inflation! This only a symptom of poor user acquisition and lack of competition! 

Trying to fix the symptoms isn’t where the focus should lie, the focus should be in getting more users in and using the service! You’ll be surprised at how things change when theirs 200k daily active users like we saw on STEEM during 2017 bull run
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vote details (2)
@jaki01 ·
$0.89
> I think that we all know this is a problem but it’s an accepted problem ...

Accepted from <em>whom</em>? <em>Not</em> from <em>me</em> ... :)

> Trying to fix the symptoms isn’t where the focus should lie ...

I don't consider what I described as "symptoms" but one of the main problems of this platform.
The lack of real interaction (adding the #hive tag may change that to a certain degree) is discouraging, boring and really frustrating, especially for new users.
The short curation window, which puts pressure on potential readers to upvote quickly without reading anything, is based on a complete misconception in my eyes.
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vote details (2)
@chekohler · 
Lol that’s the beauty of it you don’t have to agree with it! If you feel strongly enough in this direction then spin up a tribe with HIVE engine, set your distribution model of your very own and prove the superior use case! If we had to hard fork every time someone didn’t like the distribution we’d never do anything else
properties (22)
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@chocolatescorpi ·
$0.23
Being a complete newbie here and not really knowing what bias is currently going on or the previous history, you are absolutely right. It always should be about the quality of the content rather than the author- or even the spelling.

I am a bit of a spelling and grammar cop myself, But I also realise that for thousands- if not millions of writers, English is their second language and not a language, especially with all of our differences, that is easily written.

And if there are other people out there that have zero tolerance for the rest of the world's English, then maybe they should build a language translator for the Hive Ecosystem.......

I have always said that I would rather work with a cook that can whip up magic with leftovers under a tin roof in a battered kitchen than a chef who dishes up tasteless food using shiny new cookware.

You can teach skills, but not passion and authenticity.
And those that do try hard should be rewarded, not those that just roll it out without thought or effort.
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vote details (2)
@chriddi ·
$0.48
Ich bin grundsätzlich deiner Meinung, wenn ich auch aus mehreren Gründen ein paar wenige Autovotes laufen habe. Anschließend lese ich die Beiträge immer. Und deshalb „musste“ ich auch schon den ein oder anderen von meiner sehr überschaubaren Liste streichen. Aber egal, darüber haben wir schon oft geredet. Ich möchte hier aber eine kleine Anekdote vom Steem hinterlassen, die dem Reward-Wahnsinn die Krone aufsetzt:
Steemitblog will gerade die Kommunikation in seinem „Diary-Game“ fördern und wirbt damit, täglich sehr hohe Votes auf gehaltvolle Kommentare unter den Beiträgen von Teilnehmern des Spiels zu verteilen. Das sei schnelles Geld.
Da beschwert sich doch tatsächlich jemand öffentlich, dass das Vorgehen ungerecht sei, denn für einen guten Kommentar müsste er den Beitrag lesen, das sei ihm zu aufwändig...
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vote details (8)
@agmoore ·
$0.06
>  denn für einen guten Kommentar müsste er den Beitrag lesen, das sei ihm zu aufwändig...

&#128514;
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vote details (1)
@don-t ·
$0.03
haha @chriddi ja das ist Klasse so zu argumentieren, aber mit mir spricht hier sowieso besser keiner weil ich die Probleme hier noch deutlicher adressiert habe denn es gibt ja noch mehr als die die Jaki01 hier explizit erwähnt hat aber er hat ja mit dem Post auch einen Fokus also insofern absolut ok.
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vote details (2)
@chriddi ·
$0.02
> er hat ja mit dem Post auch einen Fokus also insofern absolut ok.

Denke ich auch. Nicht jedes Ärgernis gehört überall hin. Ohnehin sollte das Suchen nach Lösungen im Fokus stehen. Wenn es keine Lösungen/Einigungen gibt, kann man halt nur auf Selbstregulation vertrauen oder... den Kram hinter sich lassen, weil es einem persönlich nicht wert ist, sich davon runterziehen zu lassen.
Hab einen traumhaften Sommer,
LG Chriddi
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properties (23)
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vote details (3)
@jaki01 ·
$0.11
> Da beschwert sich doch tatsächlich jemand öffentlich, dass das Vorgehen ungerecht sei, denn für einen guten Kommentar müsste er den Beitrag lesen, das sei ihm zu aufwändig...

Dafür ist allerdings ein beachtlich hoher Grad an Ignoranz/Dreistigkeit vonnöten. :)
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vote details (2)
@commentcoin ·
$0.10
[@alucian] Ist ja nichts neues. Die Art und Weise, wie ein Vote Trail dazu führt, das man immer einen Payout bekommt, weil man sich irgendwann mal beim entsprechenden User "beliebt" gemacht hat, schadet für das Außenbild des Hive.

Die meisten Lesen nicht, sie schreiben. Möglichst kurze Beiträge, damit man auch ja nichts hat das man dem geneigtem Voter zu denken gäbe. Eine Seite, zwei Seiten, das ist meist schon zu "viel" für den gemeinen Hive Nutzer.
Genauso wie die Kommentiererei. Sie ist völlig unterbewertet, auch wegen den fehlenden Votes auf Kommentare und spätestens dort kann man erkennen, wie einseitig dieses System funktioniert.

Geändert werden könnte etwas daran, da bin ich mir sicher, aber das Interesse scheint nicht vorhanden zu sein, zumindest kaum beachtet an den richtigen Stellen.

Salve
Alucian
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vote details (5)
@condeas ·
$1.34
> Entscheidend ist der Inhalt, nicht der Autor!

Das ist richtig, nur einige Autoren liefen immer guten Inhalt. Deshalb meine "Autovotes".

> Meiner Meinung nach ist es nicht sinnvoll, Autoren in Kategorien wie "gut", "mittelgut" oder "schlecht" einzuteilen.

Ja, bin ich gleicher Meinung. Entscheidend ist für mich das Thema und die Form des Beitrages. Da ist es mir egal ob er als "gut" oder "schlecht" von irgend jemanden eingestuft wurde.

> Auf HIVE wird zu wenig gelesen!

Das glaube ich nicht.
Ich lese alle Beiträge und Kommentare, welche durch den Autovoter bewertet wurden. Ich mache nur ganz selten "Follows" und nutze quasi den Autovoter als meinen persönlichen Blog.

> Und wir alle wissen ja, wer zu spät kommt (votet), den bestraft das Leben.

Das ist mir im Grunde egal.
Ich nutze ausschließlich https://rewarding.app für Autovotes. Da stelle ich bei jeden "Begünstigten" ein, bis zu welcher Vote VP er bewerten darf und ob er, wenn die VP darunter liegt, den Beitrag später, nach erreichen der Mindest-VP, bewerten soll. Dies mache ich aber nur bei einigen wenigen, meist bewerte ich diese Beiträge später manuell.

Tipp:
40% meiner CR erhalte ich durch das Bewerten von Kommentaren. Da ist man meist auch nach zwei Tagen noch der Erste ;)
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vote details (9)
@jaki01 · (edited)
> Das ist richtig, nur einige Autoren liefen immer guten Inhalt. Deshalb meine "Autovotes".

Du kannst mir nicht weis machen, jeder würde mit jedem einzelnen Post immer absolut gleichbleibende Qualität liefern, die deinen <em>subjektiven</em> Geschmack immer in exakt dem gleichen Maße trifft, so dass er jedes Mal ein Vote exakt der gleichen Stärke erhalten sollte. Come onnnnn!! :)

Und ein Lehrer sollte dann vermutlich auch die Noten bereits vor Abgabe und Korrektur der Klassenarbeit (welche letztlich dann auch komplett entfallen könnte) verteilen, weil ein "guter" Schüler eben gute Qualität liefert, ein "schlechter" eben schlechte ... Das wäre doch mal was: Ein Autobenotungsprogramm für Lehrer ... :-)

> Das glaube ich nicht. <em>Ich</em> ...

Ja, <em>du</em> vielleicht ... was aber aus statistischer Sicht irrelevant ist.
Abgesehen davon ist die Reihenfolge, erst zu voten und dann zu lesen m. E. genauso sinnvoll, wie erst zu schießen und dann "Hände hoch!" zu rufen. :)

Ich upvote ebenfalls gerne Kommentare, vor allem, um - <a href="https://peakd.com/steem/@jaki01/bad-effects-of-the-small-curation-window">wie hier beschrieben</a> - den Schnellvotern keinen zusätzlichen Kurations-Reward zu verschaffen.
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vote details (2)
@don-t · (edited)
$0.10
Tja das dumme daran ist allerdings das sich auch extrem ekelhaft agierende Hoch-HP-Inhaber sogar automatisch solche Kommentarvotes von dir oder anderen dazu benutzt haben downvotes ihrer kranken Ansicht des ganzen Themas zu platzieren und damit nicht nur dem Beitragsersteller sondern auch dem Votegeber also dir z.B. deine gut gemeinte Kurationsstrategie zerstören oder zumindest kräftig beeinflussen.

Ich denke grundsätzlich es bedarf mehr Änderungen als nur die der Entscheidung wie, wann und wer gevotet wird, ich denke du weißt auf was ich anspiele ;)

...ab diesem Kommentar laufe ich wieder mit einer Zielscheibe auf der Brust herum.
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vote details (2)
@costanza ·
$0.16
Honestly, the entire curation system on Hive/Steem is completely retarded and need to be fully redesigned from the ground up if it is ever going to work. The model Publish0x is using makes much more sense and fixes many of the issues Hive has, I wrote an entire post on it a while back <a href="https://hive.blog/hive-167922/@costanza/hive-vs-publish0x-or-12-reasons-why-publish0x-works-better-for-blogging">12 Reasons Why Publish0x works better for Blogging</a>

Why not switch to a proof of stake model that gives passive returns to stakeholders allowing them to tip content they like with upvotes from which the value gets subtracted from their passive returns or directly from users wallet funds. This would also fix the issue of post-earnings only lasting 7 days which now mainly incentivizes garbage post2mine operations. The utility from the token can come from things like resource credits and voting rights. Add to that an up & downvote model where 1 account is 1 vote that actually incentivizes readers to upvote what they enjoy reading the most instead of what makes them the most money. This way there a much higher chance of outsiders going the front page and actually see something that is interesting instead of only posts about the platform itself. I'd love to have Hive as something similar to Reddit where you can come any time of the day and instantly find something interesting. With the current model that's all about the rewards, this will imo never happen.
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vote details (1)
@d3mon-bl4ck · (edited)
$0.08
Das traurige so ist auch auf Blogs, Serien, Filme, Podcast und so weiter. 

Es wird nicht mehr gelessen, gehört oder geschaut. Hauptsache ich kann sagen ich hab’s gesehen aber verstanden? 

Das ist verdammt traurig. 

Aber das liegt an uns allen wir leben immer schneller beschweren uns aber das wir nicht hinter herkommen.
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vote details (2)
@jaki01 ·
$1.00
Richtig, wobei speziell du auch <em>sehr</em> schnell zu leben scheinst, so ganz ohne Zeit für jegliche Kommata (ab dem zweiten Satz). :-)
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vote details (3)
@d3mon-bl4ck ·
$0.07
Erwischt ;) hab es jetzt ausgebessert. zur Verteidigung hab es auf dem Handy geschrieben und das Essen ist gekommen. der Hunger hat mich dann aber überrannt. XD  

aber schonst bin ich ein eher ruhiger Mensch. ;)

Danke fürs den Up Vote
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vote details (2)
@denmarkguy ·
$0.24
A big problem, indeed, **@jaki01.**

I see in my own posts how often I will have 200-300 upvotes while I have less than 10 actual *page views.* And I fear most of those page views happen only because I happen to have built a following that *knows* I am very likely to engage with any meaningful comment they leave.

In general, I only give out about 10-20 upvotes a day, and pretty much ALL of them are to content/creators whose content generally *interests* me, and we have become casual friends. I suppose that is *"good"* in the sense that I am curating completely *manually,* but *NOT* so good in the sense that I seldom end up taking time to go exploring for *new* content creators.

I don't personally *like* the 5-minute window for the very reason you state... you end up rushing, and on a high quality *"long-form"* post it stops being enjoyable...
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vote details (2)
@dzone ·
$0.12
Ich finde 10 Votes eh zuviel. 10 Votes innerhalb 5 Tagen, dann hätte ich genug Zeit auch längere Posts zu lesen und zu kommentieren.
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vote details (1)
@faltermann ·
$0.23
So jetzt ein erneuter Anlauf. Nach dem ich dir gestern schon mal geschrieben hatte, war mein Text mit einem Mal verschwunden. Kein Wunder wenn man einen deiner Links anklickt und den Text schon fast fertig hat. Da bin ich wohl selber Schuld 😏

> Entscheidend ist der Inhalt, nicht der Autor!

Das sehe ich ganz genau so, auch wenn manche hier eine gehörige Portion Vetternwirtschaft betreiben. Ein Social Media Network lebt in erster Linie vom Inhalt. Allerdings kann ich natürlich nicht alle Beiträge lesen sondern picke mir die vermeintlich interessanten heraus. Die Frage stellt sich doch, wie guter Inhalt besser sichtbar wird in diesem Meer von Plankton?

> Auf HIVE wird zu wenig gelesen!

Ich glaube, ganz so pauschal kann man das nicht im Raum stehen lassen. Mein Eindruck ist, dass es zu wenig guten Inhalt gibt. Wir brauchen mehr freie Geister, Poeten, Künstler und Leute die auf völlig unterschiedliche Art ihre Kreativität zum Ausdruck bringen. Solche Menschen müssen wir auf der Plattform halte und sie nicht abschrecken mit blöden downvotes von dem Kasper der bei uns beiden sein Unwesen treibt.

Warum es das 5-Minuten-Fenster überhaupt gibt, habe ich immer noch nicht begriffen. Von mir aus könnte das wegfallen und gleichzeitig die Autovotes abgeschafft werden. Das ist doch alles nur ein komplexes Konstuckt, welches sich einige Wenige zu eigen machen. Der normale User will Spaß haben und nicht mit einem undurchsichtigen Regelwerk konfrontiert werden.

> Am besten werden die Posts selbst dann auch noch von Bots verfasst (gevotet ja ohnehin bereits), und dann kann sich der menschliche Bot-Bediener gemütlich zurücklehnen, das 'soziale Robot-Netzwerk' aus der Ferne betrachten und sich ganz anderen Dingen zuwenden ... bis dann auch die irgendwann zu anstrengend und somit den Maschinen überlassen werden. ;-)

Und was machen die Maschinen dann mit der ganzen Kohle die sie ganz automatisch verdient und selbstverständlich nicht an das Faultier abdrückt?

Ups... jetzt habe ich mich dabei erwischt, wie ich noch selber schreibe😲
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vote details (3)
@jaki01 · 
> Ich glaube, ganz so pauschal kann man das nicht im Raum stehen lassen. Mein Eindruck ist, dass es zu wenig guten Inhalt gibt. Wir brauchen mehr freie Geister, Poeten, Künstler und Leute die auf völlig unterschiedliche Art ihre Kreativität zum Ausdruck bringen. Solche Menschen müssen wir auf der Plattform halte und sie nicht abschrecken mit blöden downvotes von dem Kasper der bei uns beiden sein Unwesen treibt.

Ein Problem ist, dass diejenigen mit der meisten HIVE-Power diese vor allem fürs Circle-Voting benutzen und abgesehen davon in erster Linie HIVE-/kryptobezogene Posts honorieren. Dadurch wird der Vielfältigkeit der Plattform nicht gerade Vorschub geleistet.
<em>Wenn</em> dann doch mal andere Themen betreffende Posts upgevotet werden, geben sich die Wale m. E. oft keine besondere Mühe mit der Auswahl! Man denke an @upmewhale, der von Zeit zu Zeit in unserer Insekten-Community herumvotet ... nach welchen <em>Kriterien</em> ist mir ein Rätsel. :-)
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@filotasriza3 ·
$0.26
and here i am doing everything manually, without caring about the time of the post in order to cast my vote... While at the same time i have some autovoters on my posts while nobody reads them. That's the saddest, the engagement levels have dropped drastically and i believe if we make an experiment and i write one of my posts, then give it to a specific "famous" account, not only it will have 10x times the rewards but some comments as well. 

In other words it's like my work and most people's work is buried...  There are some curators though that do everything manually and read the posts but they are rare
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vote details (3)
@germanbot · 
Du hast ein Upvote von mir bekommen, diese soll die Deutsche Community unterstützen. Wenn du mich unterstützten möchtest, dann sende mir eine Delegation. Egal wie klein die Unterstützung ist, Du hilfst damit der Community. DANKE!
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👎  
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vote details (2)
@giocondina ·
$0.09
Te felicito por tocar este tema tan importante @jaki01, ya que hace algunos días se dió una entrevista por el canal discord con @bluemist donde habló acerca de los votos, recalcando que estos se hacen manualmente porque de hacerlo en forma automática se estaría cometiendo injusticia con muchos creadores de contenidos, pero lamentablemente y según lo que veo a menudo en la red es todo lo contrario a lo que él señala porque  los votos siempre son para las mismas personas; a mi parecer tienen un grupo de preferencia, sea cual sea su contenido; eso sin verificar que el post esté bien escrito, sin errores ortográficos y bien justificados. Todo esto me parece una falta de respeto hacía los demás creadores de contenido que no somos tomados en cuenta porque se hable de hacer crecer la plataforma, pero será con la misma gente del grupito preferencial porque como crecemos los que NO recibimos votos en nuestros contenidos?? Esta es mi opinión, sin ánimos de ofender pero si de crear conciencia en los curadores y que vean que si existen personas que publican contenido deexcelente calidad.
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@hardiananisam · 
🙏🙏👍👍👍
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vote details (1)
@hatoto ·
$0.18
Der Grund dieses Problems liegt doch darin, dass jeder seine Upvotes voll ausnutzen will.

Was hältst du von dem Vorschlag, dass nicht jeder Vote 2% Upvotepower verbraucht, sondern, dass am Ende des Tages geschaut wird, wie viel Votes jemand vergeben hat und dann dementsprechend seine Votepower auf die Posts aufgeteilt werden, die er gevotet hat.

Beispiel:

User X hat 10000 HP und jeder 100% Upvote ist 0,20 $ wert.
Er ist ein aktiver Kurator und verteilt an einem Tag 30 Upvotes. Am Ende des Tages wird seine Votepower entsprechend dem Gewicht seiner Votes auf die Posts aufgeteilt.

Er hat 10 Votes mit 100 % verteilt und 20 Votes mit 50%. Alle Posts, die er mit 100 % gevotet hat bekommen 0,1 $. Alle Posts, die er mit 50% gevotet hat, bekommen 0,05 Cent.


Am nächsten Tag hat X wenig Zeit und votet nur 5 Artikel zu jeweils 100%. Am Ende des Tages erhält jeder Artikel 0,4$.

Ich hoffe es wird klar, was ich meine.
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vote details (5)
@jaki01 · (edited)
$0.04
> Ich hoffe es wird klar, was ich meine.

Ja, dann würde es sich so richtig lohnen, sich selbst ein einziges 'Riesenupvote' pro Tag zu gönnen. :)

Ich bin bezüglich dieser Idee eher skeptisch, denn prinzipiell halte ich es schon für sinnvoll, seine Upvotes auf möglichst viele Accounts zu verteilen (und dafür dann auch belohnt zu werden).
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@hatoto ·
$0.08
> Ja, dann würde es sich so richtig lohnen, sich selbst ein einziges 'Riesenupvote' pro Tag zu gönnen. :)

Wo wäre der Unterschied zum aktuellen Zustand? Jeder kann sich selbst 10 upvotes am Tag geben. Ich vertraue auf die Community, dass sie sowas erkennt und regelt
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@wulff-media ·
$0.12
> dementsprechend seine Votepower auf die Posts aufgeteilt werden, die er gevotet hat

Die Idee gefällt mir sehr gut. Allerdings wird dann der Reward-Pool grundsätzlich maximal gelehrt, was die Sache besonders einfach für Eigenvoter macht. Folglich dürften dann keine Votes auf eigenen Content mehr erlaubt sein und das ist wohl extrem schwierig (mehrfache Accounts, Circle-Jerking).

Du kannst dir zwar auch jetzt schon 10 Upvotes selber zuschustern, musst aber auch 10 Posts dafür finden, ohne dass es groß auffällt und mit Downvotes sofort platt gemacht wird. Mit deiner Idee würde ein einziger halbwegs legit wirkender Post ausreichen. "Und führe uns nicht in Versuchung, sondern..."
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vote details (4)
@hivebuzz · 
Congratulations @jaki01! You have completed the following achievement on the Hive blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

<table><tr><td><img src="https://images.hive.blog/60x70/http://hivebuzz.me/@jaki01/upvotes.png?202007200449"></td><td>You distributed more than 48000 upvotes. Your next target is to reach 49000 upvotes.</td></tr>
</table>

<sub>_You can view [your badges on your board](https://hivebuzz.me/@jaki01) And compare to others on the [Ranking](https://hivebuzz.me/ranking)_</sub>
<sub>_If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word_ `STOP`</sub>



**Do not miss the last post from @hivebuzz:**
<table><tr><td><a href="/hivebuzz/@hivebuzz/hivewhale"><img src="https://images.hive.blog/64x128/https://i.imgur.com/rEHA937.png"></a></td><td><a href="/hivebuzz/@hivebuzz/hivewhale">Hive Whale - Make it spray and get your badge!</a></td></tr></table>

###### Support the HiveBuzz project. [Vote](https://hivesigner.com/sign/update_proposal_votes?proposal_ids=%5B%22109%22%5D&approve=true) for [our proposal](https://peakd.com/me/proposals/109)!
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@investinthefutur ·
$0.02
@mima2606 denkt du hast ein Vote durch @investinthefutur verdient!<br>@mima2606 thinks you have earned a vote of @investinthefutur !<br> [Votet](https://hivesigner.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=cervisia) @cervisia for Witness
👍  ,
👎  
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vote details (3)
@jeenger · 
Ein jeengervote für dich von @mima2606
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@josua1 ·
$0.23
Zitat: "Es sollte also nicht darauf ankommen, WER etwas sagt, sondern WAS er sagt..."

Diese Aussage trifft nicht nur auf Hive zu, das gilt auch für Politik, Medien, Länder usw, da könnte man jetzt eine ganze Buchseite auflisten, während die Liste derer, die sich darüber mal Gedanken machen wahrscheinlich bedeutend kleiner ausfallen würde, aber immerhin auch "nicht" leer wäre, was doch ein positiver Aspekt ist, den man bei allem, was gerade falsch laufen mag auch nicht ganz vergessen sollte. ;-)
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vote details (3)
@lacking ·
$0.08
I am not super technically inclined to how these things affect the blockchain at a larger level, but I am against autovoters. I use them because I'm small fry and the only other way to get a better ROI is to lease out my hive on dLease and not use Hive since I have no VP. As Acid said, he gets 4x more rewards going auto so I would be hitting myself in the knee with a hammer if I didn't use it. It would be a severe disadvantage.

As I said in reply to Acid, Markymark has me on a $0.67 cent auto-vote which now means NO OTHER CURATOR will pick me up. I get stuck with author rewards below $5 and it won't matter what I post. That's why I've gone all photos with minimal substance. Not worth my time to put anything more than a few basic facts into my posts. Spend an hour walking around taking photos, an hour to research and write, and in the end my time was worth $2 an hour.
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vote details (2)
@jaki01 · (edited)
$0.94
> Not worth my time to put anything more than a few basic facts into my posts.

I know what you mean, but of course there are also other ways to view things: for me for example a blockchain is a place to store my precious thoughts and ideas. I would never be satisfied with creating low effort posts which I didn't like myself ...
Furthermore, if more users focused on creating good content instead of making maximal profit, HIVE would look much better and interesting when viewed from outside of our microcosm ...
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@mariela53 · (edited)
$0.17
Amigo @jaki01 usted tiene toda la razón, no soy experta en esta plataforma, pero tu análisis y observación en esta publicación es muy  cierta, publicamos contenidos de calidad y no son valorados, entonces te encuentras con contenidos pobres en redacción, ortografía y son muy bien recompensados, desde que estoy en esta plataforma he detectado muchas fallas y es muy triste la situación, porque como escritores y productores de contenidos de calidad, no somos bien valorados, eso decepciona. Es triste esta situación. Cuando me tropiezo con publicaciones bien valoradas y detecto fallas ya sean de redacción y ortográficas, me pregunto, ¿Esta gente que valoro este post no leerá, no revisara?, siempre me hago la misma pregunta, y me siento triste.  Amigo muy bueno tu post muy reflexivo. Saludos
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@jaki01 · 
Gracias por tu comentario!

Por cierto, soy @jaki01, no @what01. :)
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@mariela53 · (edited)
$0.06
ah ok gracias amigo @jaki01 por la corrección . Excelente post. Ojala sigas publicando post relacionados con el tema. No te imaginas cuando no me votan los post , que es generalmente que no me votan y como me siento. jajajajaaja. Saludos amigo desde Venezuela.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@mima2606 ·
$0.31
Stimme Dir voll zu. Und finde die Beispiele, die du nennst sehr treffend. 

Bei mir wird ja auch alles manuell erledigt und das ist auch gut so und bleibt auch so. Ich hoffe Das Du einige Hivaner erreicht hast! 

Was mir speziell aufgefallen ist will ich mal kurz wiedergeben.

- Auf Hive wird definitiv viel zu wenig kommentiert.
- Auf Hive sind die Rewards höher und das hat nichts mehr mit dem Kurs zu tun, denn der hat sich angeglichen.
- Auf Hive scheint die deutsche Community, die sich gegenseitig unterstützt grösser als auf Steem zu sein (subjektiver Eindruck)


"Ist es aber nicht so, dass seit der Umstellung auf 50 % Kurations-Vergütung die Upvotenden ohnehin so fürstlich belohnt werden, dass man ein wenig 'echte', manuelle Arbeit durchaus von ihnen erwarten können sollte?"

Das sollte sich jeder noch mal durchlesen und dann entscheiden was er und wie er in Zukunft Votes verteilen möchte.

LG Michael

!jeenger
!invest_vote

P.S.  Eine Frage: Macht es denn soviel aus den Autor nach 5 Minuten zu voten was die Rewards angeht?
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vote details (4)
@missagora ·
$0.08
Ich teile Deine Ansicht.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@mister-koy ·
$0.11
Great article. Being new here, I don’t know much yet; however, I can’t like autovoving. It takes away from the whole point. You spent your time writing not just typing, but putting it together, and you expect it to be read; not just auto vote.
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vote details (2)
@mister-omortson ·
$0.18
The eternal question on platforms of this type. The pursuit of good content. Who will judge what is good and what is bad? Can the integrity and impartiality win benefit and cronyism?
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vote details (3)
@jaki01 · 
> Who will judge what is good and what is bad?

It's not always easy to judge, and will always be partly subjective ... but many users don't even <em>try</em>.

Of course there are also objective criteria for 'quality content'. Here are a few examples:
- Are the pictures detailed and clear?
- How is grammar, orthography and formatting?
- Does the post contain own thoughts and ideas?
- Does the author add sources to back his claims?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@kristall97 ·
$0.08
> - Are the pictures detailed and clear?
>- How is grammar, orthography and formatting?
>- Does the post contain own thoughts and ideas?
>- Does the author add sources to back his claims?

This is exactly what our CommentCoin AI reviews.
Thus the syntax of the posts is checked to see if any effort was made or not.
👍  ,
👎  
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vote details (3)
@mister-omortson ·
$0.07
We both understand that finding a good post and doing it every day is not an easy job.
The question is, are,nt we ready to spend time on this?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@musicuniversity ·
$0.27
Das ist für mich als Neuling hier natürlich sehr spannend zu verfolgen. Grundsätzlich denke ich ja auch, dass sich Qualität auf Dauer immer durchsetzen wird. Viele haben aber einfach nicht die Geduld, um 2-3 Jahre dauerhaft und konsequent Qualität ohne Belohnung abzuliefern.

Durch meine Erfahrung im Musikbusiness weiss ich, dass manchmal auch die Regel gilt "Wer am lautesten schreit und das beste Netzwerk hat, bekommt am meisten Beachtung (oder Upvotes...). Und im gleichen Moment versumpft die wahre Qualität in der ungesehenen Bedeutungslosigkeit.

ABER es zeigt sich auch dort: Wenn man es langfristig betrachtet, setzt sich Qualität immer wieder durch, wenn sie über 2, 5 oder auch 10 Jahre konsequent abgeliefert wird. Und die Schreihälse mit dem ach so wertvollen Netzwerk kennt dann schnell keiner mehr, wenn sie aufhören zu schreien ...

In wie weit das auf Hive übertragbar ist, muss ich nun selbst noch herausfinden (sobald ich mein Profil mal bearbeiten darf, das hängt seit gestern 😅) - aber auch hier glaube ich daran, dass man bei qualitativ hochwertigen Beiträgen irgendwann den Reward erhält, den man sich verdient hat.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@jaki01 · 
> Grundsätzlich denke ich ja auch, dass sich Qualität auf Dauer immer durchsetzen wird.

Hoffen wir, dass du letztlich Recht behalten wirst! :)
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@kristall97 · 
Genau so sehe ich das auch, die Qualität wird am Ende immer siegen.
Selbst wenn dein Post wenig Rewards bekommt, bekommst du durch aufmerksame Leser ein Follow oder bleibst in den Gedanken der Leser.
Das ist auf Dauer gesehen viel mehr Wert, als wenn ein Post von heute 1$ Reward bekommt.

Ich denke, das Grundkonzept allein einer Blockchain ist gut, aber der Hive sollte NIE werben oder beworben werden mit "Damit kannst du Geld verdienen" oder "Poste deine Urlaubsbilder und verdiene Geld", das ist einfach der falsche Ansatz.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@don-t ·
$0.03
> Ich denke, das Grundkonzept allein einer Blockchain ist gut, aber der Hive sollte NIE werben oder beworben werden mit "Damit kannst du Geld verdienen" oder "Poste deine Urlaubsbilder und verdiene Geld", das ist einfach der falsche Ansatz.

hihi, das war schon auf Steemit so und auch dort wurde es zum Problem, ändern wollte man das, nicht die selben Fehler machen, aber es geht hier immer noch um Geld (nicht bei den kleinen Autoren die häufig tollen und wertvollen content liefern) bei den Machern die vorher schon auf Steemit für die selben Probleme verantwortlich waren.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@nathanmars ·
$0.11
I always have upvoted manually 

And I always will
👍  
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vote details (1)
@quantumg ·
$0.65
Als Blogger wünsche ich mir natürlich nichts sehnlicher, als dass meine Beiträge gelesen werden. Insofern bin ich schon Mal bei dir.  Und ich finde es ebenfalls "komisch", dass manche Posts scheinbar wirklich ungelesen sehr viele Upvotes bekommen. Vor allem, wenn der Post aus 3-4 Zeilen Krempel und einem nichts sagenden, möglicherweise noch schwer interpretierbarem Foto besteht. Ich gönne es den Autoren aber trotzdem. 

Ich glaube jedoch nicht, dass Autovoting unbedingt zu weniger Lesen im Hive führt. Denn ich weiß von einigen Hivern, die automatisch kuratieren und trotzdem Kommentare und ggf manuelle Votes da lassen. Möglicherweise sind das nur Sonderfälle. Ich weiß es nicht und hoffe es auch nicht.

Wann immer mich selbst ein Verhalten an Anderen stört, versuche ich es stets besser vorzuleben. Das ist, glaube ich mit Kultur auch die einzige gute Lösung. Man muss Kultur leben, um sie zu erhalten oder zu schaffen. Mit Kultur haben wir es ja zu tun, wenn wir von Lesen, Kuratieren und Kommentieren, letztendlich der Wertschätzung sprechen. Denn es ist ein soziales Verhalten, das auf sozialen Prinzipien und moralischer Bewertung basiert.
Ich lese unter deinem Beitrag viele Antwort-Kommentare von dir und finde, dass das ein gutes Vorleben von Kultur ist.  
Möglicherweise wird das @commentcoin  [Projekt](https://commentcoin.net/) von @alucian und @kristall97 künftig einen Anreiz zum Kommentieren und somit dem Lesen bieten. 
Die Projekt-Betreiber wollen eine Anti-Spam AI integrieren, wodurch letztlich nur jene Kommentare aufgewertet werden, die sich auf den Inhalt beziehen. So hab ich das zumindest verstanden.  Ich kann mir gut vorstellen, dass sich dadurch Einiges am Miteinander hier ändern wird.   

Autovoting kommt für mich ohnehin nicht in Frage. Denn ich brauche meine gesamte HP-"Dampfkraft" um die vielen Posts und Antwort-Kommentare, die ich hier lese ggf auch upvoten zu können. ^^
Ich bin jetzt 52 Tage im Hive und bin immer noch total begeistert, über die vielen interessanten Artikel, die man hier aus allen möglichen Bereichen zu lesen bekommt.
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vote details (8)
@commentcoin · 
[@alucian] Wir lesen mal heimlich mit und Danken für das Interesse. Geduld braucht es aber noch. ES/ Sie, die Frau AI/KI soll ja gut werden und muss aber noch vieeel lernen. Der ganze "Rest" ist auch noch nicht soweit, präsentierbar zu werden. 

Mal sehen ob wir es schaffen, das "Problem" zu lösen. Wir denken ja, zumindest Technisch und Nutzerfreundlicher halber. Ob die Menschen auf dem Hive und Steem das Projekt dann annehmen, steht auf einem anderem Blatt.

Liebe Grüße
Sascha
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@jaki01 · 
> Und ich finde es ebenfalls "komisch", dass manche Posts scheinbar wirklich ungelesen sehr viele Upvotes bekommen.

Das ist dem Bestreben geschuldet, mit möglichst wenig Aufwand eine möglichst hohe Kurations-Vergütung einzustreichen. :)

> Ich gönne es den Autoren aber trotzdem.

<em>Ich</em> gönnte es des Öfteren anderen mehr - man sollte nicht vergessen, dass es sich beim 'HIVE'schen-System' letztlich um einen großen Verteilungsmechanismus handelt, in welchem die User mit ihren Up- und Downvotes dafür verantwortlich sind, wem welcher Anteil des 'Reward-Pools' zuteil wird.

> Ich glaube jedoch nicht, dass Autovoting unbedingt zu weniger Lesen im Hive führt. Denn ich weiß von einigen Hivern, die automatisch kuratieren und trotzdem Kommentare und ggf manuelle Votes da lassen. Möglicherweise sind das nur Sonderfälle. Ich weiß es nicht und hoffe es auch nicht.

Sowas soll es immerhin geben, :-) aber ist dieses Vorgehen nicht letztlich so ähnlich, wie zuerst zu schießen und danach dann "Hände hoch!" zu rufen? Sollte es in einer logisch funktionierenden Welt nicht eher umgekehrt sein?

> Ich lese unter deinem Beitrag viele Antwort-Kommentare von dir und finde, dass das ein gutes Vorleben von Kultur ist.

Ich gebe mein Bestes, nach und nach möglichst alle Kommentare zu beantworten. :)
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@quantumg ·
$0.09
> Sowas soll es immerhin geben, :-) aber ist dieses Vorgehen nicht letztlich so ähnlich, wie zuerst zu schießen und danach dann "Hände hoch!" zu rufen? Sollte es in einer logisch funktionierenden Welt nicht eher umgekehrt sein?

Aus der einen Sichtweise heraus schon. So hast du natürlich recht. 
Was aber logisch ist, liegt hier eventuell nicht im Auge des Betrachters, sondern im Auge des Betrachteten.
Denn letztlich kommt es doch auch darauf an, was man selbst hinter seinen Upvotes sieht.

Einige scheinen damit z.B. sehr gerne Kreativität an sich fördern zu wollen. Da für Autovotes gewisse Mindestanforderung (Mindest-Anzahl Worte, Tags etc) konfiguriert werden, könnte man sogar hierbei eine Sorgsamkeit unterstellen. Da ist ja so ne Art Vor-Profiling. 
Und dadurch kommen gerade in Kreativ-Communities viel mehr Upvotes zustande, was nachweislich die Kreativität dort fördert und das Hive lebendig macht. #LMAC als gutes Beispiel.

Andere sehen es eher als eine Art Mining an und schrauben die Vote-Anforderungen entsprechend runter. Das ist sicher nicht so gut fürs Hive.

Ich will hier echt nichts schön reden. Es geht mir nur darum, dass man vielleicht nicht pauschal sagen sollte, dass Auto-Voting doof ist. Die Werkzeuge die das ermöglichen, ermöglichen es für unterschiedlichste Gründe. 
Manche dieser Gründe sind hehrer, manche weniger.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@redpalestino ·
$1.62
Hallo @jaki01, 

was #deutsch angeht hat die Qualität der Post's seit längerem ein niedriges Niveau  
erreicht, wo ich als langjähriger Curator Gefahr laufe an Augenkrebs zu erkranken.
Es wird sich selten Mühe gegeben, und es wird immer schwieriger ein paar Perlen zu finden. Wir sind schon an einem erbärmlichen Punkt angelangt wo man mit Xenophobie fast zweistellige Rewards erreicht. Einen Autovoter aktiviere ich eigentlich nur, wenn ich verreise oder anderweitig beschäftigt bin. Ich sehe den Autovoter als Segen und Fluch zugleich. Das bestimmte User bereits nach 5 Minuten einen Haufen Rewards (mich eingeschlossen) abstauben war schon immer so und wird sich wahrscheinlich niemals ändern. Eventuell sollte das gesamte Reward System überdacht oder am besten ganz abgeschafft werden.
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@edje · 
> Eventuell sollte das gesamte Reward System überdacht oder am besten ganz abgeschafft werden

Hear Hear. Though my only way to earn HIVE is through content creation, I dont think content and rewards go hand in hand, meaning: the experiment started about four years ago, shows a social network with rewards is not helping to social network itself, it looks like the social network becomes a game rather than a place to interact with each other. That said, Dan mentioned gamefication a lot in the original whitepaper.
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@jaki01 ·
$0.06
> Es wird sich selten Mühe gegeben, und es wird immer schwieriger ein paar Perlen zu finden.

Das stimmt leider.

> Eventuell sollte das gesamte Reward System ... am besten ganz abgeschafft werden.

Damit fiele für viele jedoch auch ein Anreiz weg, von weitaus populäreren Plattformen zu HIVE zu wechseln.
Nein, da muss es andere Möglichkeiten geben. @pharesim brachte z. B. mal ein sehr langes Rewardzeitfenster ins Spiel, bei dem es möglicherweise schwerer abzuschätzen wäre, wann genau sich ein Upvote am meisten lohnte - eine m. E. sehr interessante Idee.
Vor allem sollten die trägen Wale viel bewusster (und nicht nur sich gegenseitig) upvoten und auch nicht Krypto-Themen mehr Beachtung schenken. Tun sie das nicht, schaden sie letztlich ihrem eigenen Investment.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@revisesociology · (edited)
$0.23
Surely now we've got downvotes it would just make sense to get rid of the 5 minute delay, and just have parity on vote weight rewards. 

It's got to be better than what we've got now,  for sure! 

You've probably noticed that we're back to stagnant users and slow drift down to how knows where in terms of price. 

As it is, people aren't interested in Hive.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@revo ·
$0.11
I think the real worrying trend(?) is the lack of engagement in the comments.  So few comments on so many posts.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@jaki01 · 
I agree!
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@reza-shamim ·
$0.05
last night i was thing about that. most of us using automatic upvote, no matter what was written there. we dont read those contents. bt nothing to do with this.
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vote details (2)
@sariarizka ·
$0.07
# You are all too busy thinking about your wallet, and putting aside all about the progress of the Hive.
# Look they never worry and doubt they sicerely advance the Hive..
![Hive](https://images.hive.blog/p/2r8F9rTBenJQjbxhUcYDmdfYohNVAqB7TJ6kCoecfzrRQkNWezHR5YpS44Fm8mXC6tdgoSYJDZrVhY2aqqbMcs3Qj7yUg9z6SSNgxdJdHvLXk8UKa2io1FSdLEGiCuyNN?format=match&mode=fit)
https://peakd.com/hive-193562/@dilimunanzar/promo-hive-on-air-at-rri-today-with-indonesian-hive-community
# But what..
# No one cares about them, this is one example because lazy to read, and dont want to know about other people's good or bad..

*Sorry if my english is very bad*
👍  ,
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@jaki01 · 
At least this post has a pending reward of over 20 dollars, which is not so bad in my opinion ... or do you mean the small number of comments?
👍  
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@sariarizka ·
$0.03
No, the prize is there after I share it here ..
you can check it..
👍  
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vote details (1)
@thatgermandude ·
$0.11
also dem @jaki01 dem vertrau ich, da kann ich das hier auch upvoten ohne zu lesen.

 ich les' schon relativ viel von dem was ich upvote (~50% les' ich wenigstens teilweise), aber ich hab das Gefühl es gibt auch nicht mehr so viel interessantes zu lesen. In #politics gibt es vielleicht 20 posts pro Tag wovon 50% @cyberdemon531 ist...
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vote details (2)
@tobetada ·
$0.47
good post! we need posts like this to discuss the future of the Hive platform and make it better. I definitely feel similar to you: the 5 min curation window is something that needs to change; and your analysis of the situation that this prevents real engagement when coupled with autovotes seems very true as well. 

I am open for change (as it is the only constant) and would like to see things get experimented with. How do we do that? Could we have a sort of "beta Hive platform" where we test these things (as it wouldn't be a good idea to do HFs and then undo them again)? 

While I understand the case against autovotes, I am also somewhat in favor of them as I see it as a sort of pledge of support to an author (who may not always deliver the same quality of posts). I am daily distributing my votes to 80+accounts (a lot of them minnows) and I feel that this is making a bit of an impact. If we had more dolphins and orcas do this (and of course whales) we would probably end up with almost all users (subtracting abusers) getting some sort of meaningful rewards. Manual curation on top of that could then bring out the really good posts as well. 

To me it seems that the Steem experiment (that Ned once talked about) to find the best way to reward "good" content has largely failed. The reason seems to be monetization: if things are about money, it would seem to be human nature to try and maximize profits. But this behavior does not bring about top quality content, but is essentially self rewarding and leads to circle voting and empowers only a handful of users. @therealwolf made a post about this some time ago and argued that we would need to switch to a voting system based on user votes (like on FB or other social media platforms) and distribute rewards based on the amount of stake one has (I think). Would this work any better? I think we need a lot of suggestions and time to figure things out. And as long as the community thinks and debates about these issues it seems to me that answers can be found...
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vote details (4)
@jaki01 · 
Interesting thoughts!
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@tomlee ·
$0.03
So, how do we remedy the situation?
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vote details (2)
@jaki01 ·
$0.87
The first step when solving a problem is to realize that it <em>really</em> exists! :)

In my opinion to upvote posts as quick as possible shouldn't be rewarded, at least not as long as <em>automated</em> voting is possible.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kaminchan ·
$0.11
Very nice article. Yes, it would be very positive to reward people who are seriously giving out out content.  This will be very encouraging! The five minutes window is something new to me! No wonder I was quite late so the reward was punished! LoL
👍  
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vote details (1)
@lucylin · 
Accepting that this problem _really_ exists, would mean the very people benefiting from the circle jerking sycophancy, would have to think in terms outside of their own immediate self interest.

People with an IQ under 110 and the rapacious unthinking greed of 'the middle class mindset' are the very circle jerks that are creating the paradigm that you talk about.
I've been here 4 years now, and rapidly coming to the conclusion this place is a square peg trying to get hammered into a round hole.

The fundamental changes that are needed  for this model to _really_ move on, is reliant on the very people profiting from the system to change the status quo, and getting them to  see things differently.(_That_ ain't gonna happen, in my opinion).

Honestly? 
I'm getting bored of ~~this place~~ the lack of encouragement via 'rewards' to the free-er  thinkers, and the active daily supporting of daily mediocrity with big $20/30+ rewards.
Meritocracy is not present, but nepotism and politicking is rife.

People _not_ on the platform see this also. ( judging from the people I've talked to off platform).
It is becoming less fun, day by day.
In my experience in hands on real world 'people centric' business's that I've had - bars, clubs,hotels, hostels..(you get the idea I'm sure) _FUN_ is the predominant selling point.

Tech nerds, 'crypto experts', and depressing navel gazing with incessant  blogs about the misery of life  (victim mentality) _are_ receiving the big 'rewards'in this place. smh.

What kind of 'fun' message does this send out to rest of the world?
What sense of fun does the constant malicious down voting deliver?
(I've been downvoted on _every_ single post that I've made - for over three months now, plus _on every upvoted comment_! ffs..!lol) 

What kind of 'attractive investment opportunity' is seen by the 'bigger money'?
(All the 'big money' people that I've know in business, also seem to possess a very good  'sense of fun..'.)

I actually think _I'm suffering_ from the very thing that I've used as meme for ages to spread my message...
You know, the old Mark Twain one..
_'It's easier to fool someone, than convince them that they've been fooled...'

_That's_ what I'm now feeling myself, after 4 years on this place. Bugger.

The autovoting/circle jerking is just one element of a far bigger problem, imo.


Good post, sir!
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@tomlee · 
I see nothing wrong in upvoting a post early. But then again, it shouldn't just be upvoting rather one should first digest a post and compliment through upvote or comments based on it's quality.
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@urdreamscometrue ·
$0.18
>Auf HIVE wird jedoch viel zu wenig gelesen, konkret bewertet und kommentiert.

weil die usability schlecht ist.
Du findest durch Hive Frontends eigtl nur aktuelle posts (die alten versinken in der blockchain und werden nach ein paar wochen niewieder gelesen).

Abhilfe schaffen würde eine recommendation page wie es sie bei youtube, instagram, medium usw gibt die einem posts vorschlägt (auch alte!).

Soeine Startseite wäre enorm wichtig um a) posts nicht in der Blockchain "versinken" zu lassen und b) um einem Konsumenten mehr Mehrwert zu bieten.

Was für Möglichkeiten hat ein konsument denn jetzt?
Feed, Trending pages und Communities. In allen werden erstens nur die neuesten Posts bzw bei trending die Höchstbewerteten aus dem 7 tage Zeitraum angezeigt.
Dh. alter Content wird gar nicht mehr genutzt um einem Konsument Mehrwert zu bringen.

Ist es ein großes manko, wundert mich das noch niemand daran arbeitet. (der algorithmus müsste nichtmal so gut sein um schon große verbesserungen in der Hive Nutzbarkeit für Konsumenten zu erwirtschaften, allein das es eine solche page gäbe, in der man gemütlich scrollen kann wie bei insta, medium, youtube wäre schonmal ein krasser fortschritt in der usability.

Außerdem ist hive momentan noch zu klein, so dass ein guter Kurator, der Hive nach vorne bringen will automatisch auch posts upvoten sollte die ihn eigentlich vom thema her nicht interessieren, da die einzelnen thematischen/User Ökosysteme vieler Bereiche nicht oder nur schwach ausgeprägt sind und alleine nicht funktionieren können.

Angenommen model xy kommt auf Hive, wo es fast kein beauty content gibt, wenn sie jz nur von leuten upgevotet wird, die beauty interessant finden kriegt sie vllt 0,10$ artikel payout und hat ziemlich schnell kb mehr dafür arbeit zu investieren.

Allein um neue user bzw eher usergruppen wie influencer erfolgreich zu onboarden müsste man sie erstmal also umfassend hochvoten, weil wenn sdie pro post viel payout und resonanz bekommt werden immer mehr kommen, bis sie irgendwann als eigenes "Ökosystem" funktionieren können, wie auf insta, youtube etc gerade.

(Auch dafür wäre eine recommendation page wichtig, damit neue usergruppen content der zu ihnen passt sehen, wie gesagt findet man über trending etc ja nichts, bzw wenn dann nur durch zufall).
👍  
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@jaki01 ·
$1.57
> Allein um neue user bzw eher usergruppen wie influencer erfolgreich zu onboarden müsste man sie erstmal also umfassend hochvoten ...

Ein Problem ist, dass die meisten User mit wirklich viel HP vor allem Posts upvoten, die irgendetwas mit HIVE, Krypto, Blockchain oder Programmierung zu tun haben, dazu kommen dann noch ein paar Autoupvotes auf nicht gelesene Posts; nach Neuem gesucht wird kaum.
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vote details (4)
@urdreamscometrue ·
$0.07
yes das das ding das die wale thematisch eher in diesen krypto thematik breichen angesiedelt sind, was aber nunmal außer uns hier fast niemanden juckt:D

beuaty content von influencern, comedy etc was auf insta, youtube riesen reichweite hat gibts hier halt nicht wirklich.

recommendation page sehe ich trz so oder so als wichtiges tool für usability an und als tool das den mehrwert einer plattform massiv vergrößert (weil soviele tolle Hive posts "versunken" sind wo sie niemand findet obwohl da bestimmt irgendwas dabei wäre was usern mehrwert bringt und sie dadurch mehr an Hive bindet.)

Auch für content ersteller ist dieses 7 tage fenster nachdem posts nichtmehr kuratiert werden und leider vorallem auch nicht mehr gelesen werden(außer man scrollt sich händisch durch den blog eines autors) sehr schade denke ich.
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vote details (2)
@uwelang ·
$0.12
Spot on with this @jaki01 - will not change so what can we do? no rewards anymore and focus on DApps?

>But just as one should listen properly to one's discussion partners, in my opinion, really good curating means only upvoting those posts that one has actually READ. This would help to keep the "good" author from getting too lazy because he would have to prove again and again that he really is good, and give the "bad" author the chance to be rewarded for improving.

>So it shouldn't matter WHO says something, but WHAT he says, and it shouldn't matter WHO writes something, but WHAT he writes, and to find that out, the listener has to LISTEN and the reader has to READ! :)
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vote details (2)
@jaki01 ·
$0.02
> ... so what can we do? no rewards anymore and focus on DApps?

Damit fiele für viele jedoch auch ein Anreiz weg, von weitaus populäreren Plattformen zu HIVE zu wechseln.
Und die DApps müssten halt verdammt gut sein, um genug Leute hinterm Ofen hervorzulocken.

Nein, da muss es andere Möglichkeiten geben. @pharesim brachte z. B. mal ein sehr langes Rewardzeitfenster ins Spiel, bei dem es möglicherweise schwerer abzuschätzen wäre, wann genau sich ein Upvote am meisten lohnte - eine m. E. sehr interessante Idee.
Vor allem sollten die trägen Wale viel bewusster (und nicht nur sich gegenseitig) upvoten und auch nicht Krypto-Themen mehr Beachtung schenken. Tun sie das nicht, schaden sie letztlich ihrem eigenen Investment.

Abgesehen davon interessiert dich vielleicht auch noch <a href="https://peakd.com/steem/@jaki01/bad-effects-of-the-small-curation-window">dieser Artikel</a>?
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vote details (1)
@uwelang ·
$0.07
Schon - aber wer kommt den wegen Rewards von anderen Plattformen? Ich sehe da kaum was.

>Damit fiele für viele jedoch auch ein Anreiz weg, von weitaus populäreren Plattformen zu HIVE zu wechseln.
Und die DApps müssten halt verdammt gut sein, um genug Leute hinterm Ofen hervorzulocken.

Langes Rewardfesnter mag eine Lösung sein, Voteverhalten Wale ändern wird nicht passieren
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vote details (2)
@vikisecrets · (edited)
$0.25
Habe mir dazu einmal überlegt, die Curation-Berechnung zu ändern, und zwar, dass die Reihenfolge der Votes nach 7 Tagen egal ist, also es gar kein Zeitfenster mehr gibt. Damit hätten Bots keinen Zeitvorteil mehr, aber die Frage ist, ob sich das Verhalten, dann wirklich ändern würde oder ob nicht viele User aus Bequemlichkeit trotzdem Autovoter weiterverwenden würden. Nachteil ist, dass man für das schnelle/erste Entdecken von Content, nicht mehr belohnt wird. Denke überhaupt, dass das Kurationsproblem kaum lösbar ist, aber es ist auch nicht nur schwarz/weiß, dass das aktuelle System nur schlecht wäre, sondern es spiegelt auch das menschliche Verhalten wider und auf Like-basierten Social Media ist es auch ähnlich, vlt nicht ganz so extrem aber tendenziell ähnlich.
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vote details (4)
@jaki01 ·
$0.03
> Nachteil ist, dass man für das schnelle/erste Entdecken von Content, nicht mehr belohnt wird.

Dieses Gerede vom frühzeitigen Entdecken hochwertigen Contents halte ich für einen der größten Mythen seit STEEM existiert.

Wie viel Prozent der <em>frühen</em> Upvotes entfallen denn auf wirklich neu <em><b>entdeckte</b></em> Inhalte und wie viel auf <em>Autovotes</em>, die mit "entdecken" nichts, aber auch gar nichts zu tun haben? :)

Die Kombination aus fünfminütigem Rewardfenster <em>und</em> Autovotes ist einfach tödlich für manuelles Kuratieren.

@pharesim brachte mal ein sehr langes Rewardzeitfenster ins Spiel, bei dem es möglicherweise schwerer abzuschätzen wäre, <em>wann genau</em> sich ein Upvote am meisten lohnte - eine m. E. sehr interessante Idee.
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vote details (1)
@wulff-media ·
$0.20
> die Curation-Berechnung zu ändern

Ich hätte eine noch radikalere Idee: Es gibt überhaupt keine reguläre Curation mehr, sondern nur noch die _Chance_ darauf! Nach sieben Tagen werden 50% der Rewards verlost, so dass immer wieder mal auch der kleinste Curator einen richtig fetten Gewinn einstreichen könnte. Man könnte die Gewinnchance so manipulieren, dass diese umso größer wird je großzügiger das Upvote war. Die Chance wird auch dann besser, wenn man kommentiert hat und mindestens drei Upvotes für den Kommentar bekommen hat. Eine Art Klassenlotterie, sozusagen, wo aber die 100% des Wals die 100% des Minnows nicht völlig in den Schatten stellen können.
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vote details (3)
@kristall97 ·
$0.07
Dann kommen die Bots mit 10 oder 20 Accounts nur um an der Lotterie mitmachen und gewinnen zu können.

Das gibt es alles schon. Zu sehen bei den "Bitcoin faucet" die eine Lotterie anbieten.
Ab einer Zeit joinen dort direkt 20-50 Accounts rein. Meistens sieht man das dann, durch die gleichen Namen, aber das wäre sehr ärgerlich und würde nur mehr Bots herbeirufen.
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vote details (4)
@vikisecrets · 
Dass man einen Teil oder den ganzen Curation-Reward verlost, finde ich auch eine interessante Idee. Wenn man den Walen aber keinen Curation-Reward mehr gibt, haben sie kein Incentive mehr etwas upzuvoten, wovon der Autor und auch andere Kuratoren profiteren. Auch das Verkaufen von Votes könnte dadurch wieder steigen (Bid-Bots). Denke das Problem ist in Wirklichkeit nicht so leicht lösbar, da es am Verhalten der Menschen scheitert.
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vote details (2)
@wulff-media ·
$0.41
Ich stimme dir in allen Punkten zu. Es wird insgesamt weniger gelesen, nicht nur hier. Die Aufmerksamkeitsspanne der Leute geht gegen Null. Was tun? Keine Ahnung :-(

Ich persönlich halte es so, dass ich zwar keinen Autovoter nutze, aber meinen Follow-Feed mit höchstmöglicher Prozentzahl im Ganzen vote, auch wenn ich keine Zeit habe, alles zu lesen. Man kennt die Leute halt mit der Zeit. Schuldig im Sinne der Anklage.

Habe ich Zeit, schaue ich mir jeden Post an. Habe ich viel Zeit, kommentiere ich sogar mal. Ich muss allerdings zugeben, dass ich mittlerweile bei jedem Kommentar überlege, wie groß der Rattenschwanz ist, den er nach sich ziehen wird, und ob es mir den Zeiteinsatz wert ist. (Politisches Gezänk ist es z.B. nicht mehr, obwohl ich eigentlich ein politischer Mensch bin. Bin wohl ruhiger geworden.)

Übrigens: Mir scheint, die lausigen Rewards für Kommentare sind auch Teil des Problems. Manche Poster wollen wohl keine Upvotes für Engagement auf ihre Posts mehr geben, weil es ziemlich deprimierend ist, wenn das großenteils in die Tonne geht. Im Gegenzug scheint das die Motivation der "Kleinen", sich mit einem Post auseinanderzusetzen, nach unten zu treiben. Als ich vor 3 Jahren angefangen habe, war das anders, besser.

Okay, es ist nicht ideal, nur aus einem Verdienstmotiv heraus zu kommentieren, aber man muss sich dafür zumindest mit dem Post auseinandersetzen, ihn also lesen. Das war jedenfalls mal ein Weg für Newbs, sich bekannt zu machen und ein bisschen was mitzunehmen, ohne großartig selbst zu bloggen. Jetzt wohl nicht mehr.

Dein Kommentarbereich hier hat ein bisschen Action, aber es sind die üblichen Verdächtigen in langen Threads und sollte bei über 500 Upvotes eigentlich viel mehr sein, oder?

Egal, ich wünsche dir trotz Wolkendecke einen schönen Restsonntag.
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vote details (4)
@jaki01 · 
> Dein Kommentarbereich hier hat ein bisschen Action, aber es sind die üblichen Verdächtigen in langen Threads und sollte bei über 500 Upvotes eigentlich viel mehr sein, oder?

Der 'Zaubertrick' war es, den #hive-Tag zu verwenden. ;-)

Ich bin jedoch der Meinung, dass 'HIVE' viel zu selbstbezogen ist. Weitaus gesünder wäre es, wenn auch den 'Normaluser' interessierende Themen entsprechende Beachtung fänden (vor allem vor dem Hintergrund der angestrebten 'Massenadoption').
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vote details (1)
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