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RE: Part 2 of Our Plan to Onboard the Masses by richardcrill

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Viewing a response to: @steemitblog/part-2-of-our-plan-to-onboard-the-masses

· @richardcrill ·
$0.65
> When Steem and steemit.com were first released, growth was explosive because for the first time it was possible for a community of like-minded people to congregate on the Internet on a platform that they could earn a stake in.

It was also possible to get curated by humans instead of bots, whales even! People would actually read your posts and vote for them if they liked them. Lots of people would see it and upvote it if they liked it. There was real interaction. It was beautiful! I loved it so much. Then came the bidbots. Now the beauty is gone. It is replaced by greed. Votes are sold to the highest bidder. The crowdsourced content discovery mechanism has been completely undermined and it could have been prevented. A culture against vote selling could have been and could still be established, but not while Steemit Inc. endorses it.

> From these experiments we learned that, yes, a blockchain could be used to store social information, distribute tokens among community members by leveraging crowdsourced stake-weighted voting (a/k/a Proof-of-Brain), and this could be done in a way that supports the bootstrapping of a digital currency. Over one million accounts created, 50,000 daily active users, and a token featured on many exchanges is proof that a community-backed token can deliver a ton of value.

This is not what happens anymore. It's not about PoB anymore. 

> Although the changes for Communities will roll out in phases, the end result will be every bit as disruptive as the original release of the Steem blockchain.

Except for the thing that was disruptive in the beginning is now gone. How can you even still pay homage to PoB when you have allowed bid bots to completely undermine that system?

> One of the keys to Steem’s success is the fact that it has the unique capability to autonomously align the incentives of community members. We are all so passionate about Steem, because we have all worked so hard to add value to this ecosystem, and have received some amount of stake for our efforts. But again, not everyone is interested in Steem, let alone capable of adding value to it.

Some have worked hard to extract value from the system and have been greatly rewarded for their efforts.

> In order to really scale Steem, we have to not just create features that allow communities to form around non-Steem interests, we need to enable those Communities to determine for themselves who is adding value, and reward those people with stake in that community. That’s where Smart Media Tokens come in, which we will discuss in a future post.

That's all well and good, but why do we want to try to add value while others extract it? Even if we have communities that don't have delegation and have a culture against vote selling, it will still dominate Steem and be counter productive to what those communities are trying to do.

> We invite anyone with ideas, suggestions, or questions about how we can make Communities work for all Steem developers, to share their thoughts in the comment section below.

You could help to establish a culture that downvotes bid bots. It's probably too late to get rid of delegation now that it's the main way to earn here. You could make a return to PoB on steemit.com -  the fire hose for all the communities. You could quit programmatically selling STEEM and crashing the price. You could make the trending page actually posts that are trending instead of just posts that have just paid their way to get there which are basically just a weird form of ads. But I'm guessing this isn't the type of feedback you're looking for and won't even give me a meaningful reply to my comment.
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@artemislives ·
$0.02
Agreed 100% @richardcrill and your comment supported 100% with the full weight of the @ecotrain community behind it.  I speak with confidence on behalf of @eco-alex who is currently in seclusion, and ob behalf of a diverse and growing part of the steem community.  

Thank you for awesome leadership, as always
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@richardcrill ·
Thank you @artemislives! I really appreciate it. I know a lot of the people who feel this way left a long time ago, but I really wish the people behind Steemit Inc. and @steemitblog will listen to the people who are still here. It seems people want to earn as much STEEM as possible without adding value and even devaluing the platform and the coin. It seems very short sighted to me. I hope they consider their users input.
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@joeyarnoldvn ·
That's what people do.
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@sunlit7 ·
They never do, different day same bull crap, the answer is as simple as the nose of their faces but what they've built here is exclusive community of wealth abusers whom they themselves are afraid of.
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@choosefreedom ·
This is such important insight Richard. I agree with you 100%. I hope what you’ve said here is genuinely considered by anyone who wants to see this blockchain reach its potential.  The SCOT communities have already done much to address these issues. I think it’s a great direction.
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@richardcrill ·
Thank you for saying so @choosefreedom. Sadly the people that had a lot of stake that saw this problem have mostly left. The people that are here now with significant stake don't seem to see the bid bots as a problem. Not sure why @acidyo doesn't seem to see it. @ned must be for the bidbots. I know @heimindanger sees this and he is still here. Maybe if someone forks his DTube code to make a blogging platform it could work. @dan saw the problem and couldn't get enough of the other people with significant stake to see it so he left. I know @ats-david and @krnel were vocal about it too, but I think they have realized that it's not going to change.
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@jaki01 ·
$0.05
> @ned must be for the bidbots.

@ned has <a href="https://steemit.com/meme/@jaki01/where-is-ned">fled the battlefield</a>. :)
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@markkujantunen ·
@acidyo has been consistently against bid bots for long time. He even founded @ocdb as a form of lesser evil to mitigate the effect of the post quality agnostic majority of bid bots.
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@jonyoudyer ·
well said Richard!
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@richardcrill ·
Thanks man.
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@marki99 ·
Letting bidbots do their thing was really a bad choice in hindsight.
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@richardcrill ·
It seems pretty clear to a lot of us. A lot of us also called it out when they first started, but I guess Steemit Inc. disagrees.
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@fitzgibbon ·
I was there at Steemfest 2 when Ned vocally expressed his opinion on bidbots: "interesting to see how such businesses can flourish within the Steem ecosystem"

Haven't seen the new Steemit Inc team make a radical change on this as of yet.
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@nickyhavey ·
^^^^ All of this
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@nonameslefttouse ·
$0.10
Somewhere, along the way, I lost the spark, to say the things you said here today.

*It is, quite literally, the shittiest feeling in the world, as I work on that next post, knowing hours in advance, no matter what I do, that post will fail and not get anywhere on Steemit, after nearly three years of being here, 786 posts under my belt, and my blog is consistently one of the most active on the entire platform.*
<sup>*Tribes are helping.*</sup>

I don't blame anyone here, old or new, for being frustrated with those damn bidbots.  The Darwin Award winners two years in a row.
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@riverflows ·
Cannot agree more @richardcrill - and I am sure the entire @naturalmedicine community would agree too, as well as many communities here that are just getting by and trying to manually create to reward users, with great members doing their best to comment and be good Steemplayers but getting disheartened. I see so many great quality posts going nowhere, and no incentive for people to write great posts. So a wonderful post about perimenopause can get a less of a payout than a blurry photo of a mango smoothie someone has used a bidbot on. 

Your response is clear, concise, measured and deserves a reply. xxx
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@richardcrill ·
Thank you @riverflows. It was nice to get a couple replies from @roadscape, but he didn't really address what I said. I don't think he has any thing to say to my last replies to him.
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@roadscape ·
$0.30
> It was also possible to get curated by humans instead of bots, whales even! People would actually read your posts and vote for them if they liked them. Lots of people would see it and upvote it if they liked it. There was real interaction. It was beautiful! I loved it so much. Then came the bidbots. Now the beauty is gone. It is replaced by greed.

I suspect a big reason bid bots are attractive is because other forms of curation are difficult. Even altruistic voting (e.g. no benefit expected, other than improved system health) is time consuming. Content is disorganized; tags are noisy, and there are no content standards.

> The crowdsourced content discovery mechanism has been completely undermined and it could have been prevented.

By "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism" do you mean votes and trending? Votes and trending should reflect what the community believes are the most valuable contributions, but it's not an effective way to discover under-rewarded (or just undiscovered) content.

In my view, Steem has never had a "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism". The most effective mechanisms were (and still are) manual labor -- digging through feeds, following new users, establishing curation guilds. In the beginning, there were less posts (it was possible to read every single new post), they were higher quality on average, and time spent curating was subsidized by the excitement of it all. Now we need to scale.
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@jondoe ·
$0.95
> Now we need to scale.

Well said, I couldn't agree more!
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vote details (7)
@richardcrill · (edited)
> I suspect a big reason bid bots are attractive is because other forms of curation are difficult. Even altruistic voting (e.g. no benefit expected, other than improved system health) is time consuming. Content is disorganized; tags are noisy, and there are no content standards.

I think this is the type of thing communities CAN help with. Even altruistic voting gives curation rewards especially if it ends up trending. That was the original design right? It encouraged people to add value which brings more and more value to the platform.

> By "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism" do you mean votes and trending? Votes and trending should reflect what the community believes are the most valuable contributions, but it's not an effective way to discover under-rewarded (or just undiscovered) content.

Yes. I agree.
> In my view, Steem has never had a "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism". The most effective mechanisms were (and still are) manual labor -- digging through feeds, following new users, establishing curation guilds. In the beginning, there were less posts (it was possible to read every single new post), they were higher quality on average, and time spent curating was subsidized by the excitement of it all. Now we need to scale.

I agree, I think that is still the best way, but now there is no chance for it to "trend" once you have done that work. Does scaling mean that we leave all that work to the bots? If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point.
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vote details (11)
@roadscape ·
$0.16
> I agree, I think that is still the best way, but now there is no chance for it to "trend" once you have done that work. Does scaling mean that we leave all that work to the bots? If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point.

We need tools that make it easy and rewarding to curate. Say you have 1M SP and can make 50 impactful votes per day... how would you most effectively distribute them? To find 50 good but undervalued posts on steemit.com every day might take quite a while. And the modest bump to each one would not provide much exposure (e.g., on trending), which means it's unlikely for others to find it and place more votes on top (and increase your curation return). This discourages cooperation at the social layer and creates a negative feedback loop.

To me, scaling means giving users the tools to solve this dilemma.
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vote details (3)
@smooth ·
$0.02
> Even altruistic voting gives curation rewards especially if it ends up trending. That was the original design right? It encouraged people to add value which brings more and more value to the platform.

Well yes, but the original design was for curation rewards to be 50%, and they also did not have the penalty for the first 30-, 15- or soon to be 5-minutes. The changes that were made later, largely impulsively and without good rationale, undermined a lot of that balance to the point that curation rewards became almost meaningless, and the incentives to just sell votes became overwhelmingly strong.

The hope is that HF21 is going to re-balance those incentives _somewhat_ back toward what you describe, where altruistic or at least non-agnostic voting isn't so heavily penalized relative to vote selling. We'll see how it works out but it's certainly a step toward what you describe.
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vote details (1)
@steph4nus ·
@schoolofminnows is the solution to all your problems.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/steph4nus)
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@valued-customer ·
$0.08
>"If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point."

It isn't social media when bots are the voters.  Society isn't even involved in curation then.  It's just mining with automated tools.  I've no interest in mining.  I'm here for the ideas people exchange.  

That's where the actual value of Steem is: the social interaction.
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vote details (7)
@smidge-tv · (edited)
"I suspect a big reason bid bots are attractive is because other forms of curation are difficult"

Stop lying ! bid-bots are run by steemit inc and blocktrades
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vote details (5)
@sarez ·
This is a superbly worded reply. 

@richardcrill you have at least one new fan
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