Viewing a response to: @richardcrill/pvxt01
> It was also possible to get curated by humans instead of bots, whales even! People would actually read your posts and vote for them if they liked them. Lots of people would see it and upvote it if they liked it. There was real interaction. It was beautiful! I loved it so much. Then came the bidbots. Now the beauty is gone. It is replaced by greed. I suspect a big reason bid bots are attractive is because other forms of curation are difficult. Even altruistic voting (e.g. no benefit expected, other than improved system health) is time consuming. Content is disorganized; tags are noisy, and there are no content standards. > The crowdsourced content discovery mechanism has been completely undermined and it could have been prevented. By "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism" do you mean votes and trending? Votes and trending should reflect what the community believes are the most valuable contributions, but it's not an effective way to discover under-rewarded (or just undiscovered) content. In my view, Steem has never had a "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism". The most effective mechanisms were (and still are) manual labor -- digging through feeds, following new users, establishing curation guilds. In the beginning, there were less posts (it was possible to read every single new post), they were higher quality on average, and time spent curating was subsidized by the excitement of it all. Now we need to scale.
author | roadscape |
---|---|
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
acidyo | 0 | 468,112,608,982 | 3% | ||
richardcrill | 0 | 15,007,921,154 | 25% | ||
jaki01 | 0 | 86,934,569,003 | 3% | ||
v4vapid | 0 | 123,684,222,907 | 1% | ||
borislavzlatanov | 0 | 126,166,255,678 | 100% | ||
grider123 | 0 | 16,295,143,453 | 100% | ||
sankysanket18 | 0 | 13,989,344,887 | 100% | ||
ijatz | 0 | 484,617,716 | 100% | ||
kawaiicrush | 0 | -102,156,490,492 | -100% | ||
justineh | 0 | 148,303,400,013 | 25% | ||
brahm123 | 0 | 210,708,645 | 100% |
> Now we need to scale. Well said, I couldn't agree more!
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
jrcornel | 0 | 2,817,251,814,643 | 100% | ||
fukako | 0 | 5,363,637 | 2% | ||
osm0sis | 0 | 1,410,411,108 | 2% | ||
jondoe | 0 | 23,902,965,781 | 100% | ||
zapncrap | 0 | 1,545,422,581 | 2% | ||
curx | 0 | 1,530,138,739 | 2% | ||
ezravandi | 0 | 3,964,411,358 | 2.6% |
> I suspect a big reason bid bots are attractive is because other forms of curation are difficult. Even altruistic voting (e.g. no benefit expected, other than improved system health) is time consuming. Content is disorganized; tags are noisy, and there are no content standards. I think this is the type of thing communities CAN help with. Even altruistic voting gives curation rewards especially if it ends up trending. That was the original design right? It encouraged people to add value which brings more and more value to the platform. > By "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism" do you mean votes and trending? Votes and trending should reflect what the community believes are the most valuable contributions, but it's not an effective way to discover under-rewarded (or just undiscovered) content. Yes. I agree. > In my view, Steem has never had a "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism". The most effective mechanisms were (and still are) manual labor -- digging through feeds, following new users, establishing curation guilds. In the beginning, there were less posts (it was possible to read every single new post), they were higher quality on average, and time spent curating was subsidized by the excitement of it all. Now we need to scale. I agree, I think that is still the best way, but now there is no chance for it to "trend" once you have done that work. Does scaling mean that we leave all that work to the bots? If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point.
author | richardcrill |
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
kdtkaren | 0 | -45,287,285,401 | -100% | ||
jaki01 | 0 | 86,984,812,276 | 3% | ||
robinmmthompson | 0 | -34,667,355,294 | -100% | ||
valued-customer | 0 | 11,227,909,584 | 25% | ||
jonyoudyer | 0 | 7,679,356,393 | 100% | ||
choosefreedom | 0 | 1,854,864,128 | 100% | ||
ijatz | 0 | 474,144,816 | 100% | ||
malia.mancianti | 0 | -20,206,529,885 | -100% | ||
jarielomaa | 0 | 537,111,250 | 100% | ||
brahm123 | 0 | 205,498,610 | 100% | ||
kze | 0 | 148,435,787 | 100% |
> I agree, I think that is still the best way, but now there is no chance for it to "trend" once you have done that work. Does scaling mean that we leave all that work to the bots? If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point. We need tools that make it easy and rewarding to curate. Say you have 1M SP and can make 50 impactful votes per day... how would you most effectively distribute them? To find 50 good but undervalued posts on steemit.com every day might take quite a while. And the modest bump to each one would not provide much exposure (e.g., on trending), which means it's unlikely for others to find it and place more votes on top (and increase your curation return). This discourages cooperation at the social layer and creates a negative feedback loop. To me, scaling means giving users the tools to solve this dilemma.
author | roadscape |
---|---|
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
jaki01 | 0 | 87,962,957,416 | 3% | ||
borislavzlatanov | 0 | 123,651,739,678 | 100% | ||
theycallmedan | 0 | 367,867,010,985 | 1% |
> ... how would you most effectively distribute them? Make a list of 100 interesting authors and check their blogs <em>manually</em> on a regular basis. That way you can make 40 of your 50 "impactful votes". For the 10 remaining "impactful votes" try to find good posts from authors you have never read before to give new users a chance and some motivation to keep writing. > And the modest bump to each one would not provide much exposure (e.g., on trending), which means it's unlikely for others to find it and place more votes on top (and increase your curation return). I don't understand why investors always talk about their ROI (here in this special case "curation return")? Their main aim should be to increase the <em>value</em> of STEEM. Voting for 'quality content' (and flagging bid bot supported posts) would be a contribution to a higher value ... (with or without much curation reward). The <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect"><em>value</em> of a (social) network</a> is measured among others by the number of its users. So lets make sure that as many as possible users are having a pleasant user experience (for example also because they might get some impactful manual upvotes from time to time) and thus <em>stay here</em>. Lets do that as investors to save our investment. If you have one million STEEM it's <em>not</em> most important to get even more STEEM, it's important to increase the value of <em>these</em> STEEM you already own. For example I have much more STEEM than a year ago, but my account value has decreased significantly. Did I need 'ROI' when I bought BTC some years ago? Or am I happy about the high <em>value</em> of my BTC nowadays? :) Nothing against ROI, but I think we shouldn't be that focused on it ...
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
englishtchrivy | 0 | 146,412,457,125 | 100% | ||
richardcrill | 0 | 59,428,966,878 | 100% | ||
abh12345 | 0 | 54,641,801,769 | 12% | ||
planosdeunacasa | 0 | 23,832,912,102 | 100% | ||
v4vapid | 0 | 123,703,265,536 | 1% | ||
valued-customer | 0 | 11,077,369,596 | 25% | ||
digitalis | 0 | 12,273,049,758 | 100% | ||
joshman | 0 | 86,699,579,428 | 7% | ||
abdex9 | 0 | 537,594,699 | 100% | ||
alucian | 0 | 67,268,845,346 | 100% |
I wouldn't neccesarily decide that I had to give an equal vote to 50 post for one thing. I would give votes at different percentages based on what I thought they deserved. I do see this dilemna and that's why I'm not railing against delegation or curation guilds. My points were mainly about bidbots. How do bidbots help to scale?
author | richardcrill |
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I definitely see how delegation and curation guilds can be justified for the reasons you mentioned. And I see the use in projects like @curie and @tribesteemup, but those don't make the entire trending page sold to the highest bidder like bid bots do.
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
coininstant | 0 | -133,151,321,969 | -100% | ||
kdtkaren | 0 | -37,409,377,174 | -100% | ||
robinmmthompson | 0 | -36,097,603,441 | -100% | ||
gentlebot | 0 | 212,464,990,735 | 15% | ||
mauialohabella | 0 | -19,944,320,043 | -100% | ||
malia.mancianti | 0 | -21,908,809,094 | -100% | ||
artemislives | 0 | 24,888,494,308 | 25% |
>To find 50 good but undervalued posts on steemit.com every day might take quite a while I don't know what you'd consider good but stuff like this deserves to go undiscovered not earning nearly $150.00 using bidbots to go trending. https://steemit.com/art/@jellenmark/thanos-reimagined-with-infinity-2019-7-1-16-59-28 You guys actually think that people are going to downvote crap like this after the hardfolk to keep folks like this in line but the reality is when brought out into the spotlight in a post not even SFR would touch it because of who was behind paying the bidbots on it. This post was at the most worth about as much as the paper it was written on. This is one of the major reason Steem can't get out of it slump and attract new users.
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
jaki01 | 0 | 93,862,165,265 | 3% | ||
joshman | 0 | 74,210,322,699 | 6% | ||
scienceangel | 0 | 42,148,854,179 | 100% | ||
kawaiicrush | 0 | 100,180,013,816 | 100% |
> Even altruistic voting gives curation rewards especially if it ends up trending. That was the original design right? It encouraged people to add value which brings more and more value to the platform. Well yes, but the original design was for curation rewards to be 50%, and they also did not have the penalty for the first 30-, 15- or soon to be 5-minutes. The changes that were made later, largely impulsively and without good rationale, undermined a lot of that balance to the point that curation rewards became almost meaningless, and the incentives to just sell votes became overwhelmingly strong. The hope is that HF21 is going to re-balance those incentives _somewhat_ back toward what you describe, where altruistic or at least non-agnostic voting isn't so heavily penalized relative to vote selling. We'll see how it works out but it's certainly a step toward what you describe.
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
richardcrill | 0 | 62,515,574,506 | 100% |
Oh really, I didn't even realize it was originally 50/50. I hit 3 years here the other day and as far as I'm aware it's always been 75/25 during that time. I could be wrong about that as I'm just going off of memory. I do think HF21 is a step in the right direction towards rebalancing those incentives. I'll be paying close attention to see the effects. I like the idea of incentivizing that altruistic behavior and I might even prefer that to instilling it as a culture, but I'm open to both routes to moving away from vote selling completely.
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@schoolofminnows is the solution to all your problems. Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/steph4nus)
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No it's not.
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>"If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point." It isn't social media when bots are the voters. Society isn't even involved in curation then. It's just mining with automated tools. I've no interest in mining. I'm here for the ideas people exchange. That's where the actual value of Steem is: the social interaction.
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
richardcrill | 0 | 14,686,647,366 | 25% | ||
jaki01 | 0 | 93,906,013,447 | 3% | ||
choosefreedom | 0 | 2,069,439,279 | 100% | ||
lextenebris | 0 | 18,686,756,206 | 100% | ||
sunlit7 | 0 | 4,591,621,691 | 100% | ||
artemislives | 0 | 25,012,316,024 | 25% | ||
kawaiicrush | 0 | 96,237,729,736 | 100% |
"I suspect a big reason bid bots are attractive is because other forms of curation are difficult" Stop lying ! bid-bots are run by steemit inc and blocktrades
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voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
coininstant | 0 | 73,976,349,382 | 100% | ||
iflagtrash | 0 | -20,095,611,744 | -2% | ||
abusereports | 0 | -48,414,704,521 | -2% | ||
upboater | 0 | -48,884,102,053 | -5% | ||
kawaiicrush | 0 | 94,320,431,783 | 100% |