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RE: Part 2 of Our Plan to Onboard the Masses by richardcrill

View this thread on: hive.blogpeakd.comecency.com

Viewing a response to: @roadscape/pvxwc3

· @richardcrill · (edited)
> I suspect a big reason bid bots are attractive is because other forms of curation are difficult. Even altruistic voting (e.g. no benefit expected, other than improved system health) is time consuming. Content is disorganized; tags are noisy, and there are no content standards.

I think this is the type of thing communities CAN help with. Even altruistic voting gives curation rewards especially if it ends up trending. That was the original design right? It encouraged people to add value which brings more and more value to the platform.

> By "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism" do you mean votes and trending? Votes and trending should reflect what the community believes are the most valuable contributions, but it's not an effective way to discover under-rewarded (or just undiscovered) content.

Yes. I agree.
> In my view, Steem has never had a "crowdsourced content discovery mechanism". The most effective mechanisms were (and still are) manual labor -- digging through feeds, following new users, establishing curation guilds. In the beginning, there were less posts (it was possible to read every single new post), they were higher quality on average, and time spent curating was subsidized by the excitement of it all. Now we need to scale.

I agree, I think that is still the best way, but now there is no chance for it to "trend" once you have done that work. Does scaling mean that we leave all that work to the bots? If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point.
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vote details (11)
@roadscape ·
$0.16
> I agree, I think that is still the best way, but now there is no chance for it to "trend" once you have done that work. Does scaling mean that we leave all that work to the bots? If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point.

We need tools that make it easy and rewarding to curate. Say you have 1M SP and can make 50 impactful votes per day... how would you most effectively distribute them? To find 50 good but undervalued posts on steemit.com every day might take quite a while. And the modest bump to each one would not provide much exposure (e.g., on trending), which means it's unlikely for others to find it and place more votes on top (and increase your curation return). This discourages cooperation at the social layer and creates a negative feedback loop.

To me, scaling means giving users the tools to solve this dilemma.
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vote details (3)
@jaki01 · (edited)
$0.19
> ... how would you most effectively distribute them? 

Make a list of 100 interesting authors and check their blogs <em>manually</em> on a regular basis. That way you can make 40 of your 50 "impactful votes".
For the 10 remaining "impactful votes" try to find good posts from authors you have never read before to give new users a chance and some motivation to keep writing.

> And the modest bump to each one would not provide much exposure (e.g., on trending), which means it's unlikely for others to find it and place more votes on top (and increase your curation return).

I don't understand why investors always talk about their ROI (here in this special case "curation return")? Their main aim should be to increase the <em>value</em> of STEEM. Voting for 'quality content' (and flagging bid bot supported posts) would be a contribution to a higher value ... (with or without much curation reward).

The <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect"><em>value</em> of a (social) network</a> is measured among others by the number of its users.
So lets make sure that as many as possible users are having a pleasant user experience (for example also because they might get some impactful manual upvotes from time to time) and thus <em>stay here</em>. Lets do that as investors to save our investment.
If you have one million STEEM it's <em>not</em> most important to get even more STEEM, it's important to increase the value of <em>these</em> STEEM you already own.
For example I have much more STEEM than a year ago, but my account value has decreased significantly.

Did I need 'ROI' when I bought BTC some years ago? Or am I happy about the high <em>value</em> of my BTC nowadays? :)

Nothing against ROI, but I think we shouldn't be that focused on it ...
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vote details (10)
@jarvie ·
$0.07
Making LISTS has actually really helped with this. I have a few different lists I use and i find my voting is EASIER and I actually do it way more often. So I think that is one really solid solution. 
I have a list of my friends, I have a list of splinterlands type accounts, a list of accounts that seem to influence a lot of the conversation about steem itself, then i have a list of almost 100 photographers that's the one that has the most action. 

All that was made possible thanks to Hivemind. Aka i'm talking about lists on steempeak if people didn't know. But that's not the important part it's the idea that LISTS really have done what you said. 
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vote details (2)
@markkujantunen · (edited)
<blockquote>
I don't understand why investors always talk about their ROI (here in this special case "curation return")? 
</blockquote>

Could it be because they are *investors*?

<blockquote>
Their main aim should be to increase the value of STEEM. Voting for 'quality content' (and flagging bid bot supported posts) would be a contribution to a higher value ... (with or without much curation reward).
</blockquote>

That would be like working hard for a whole day and sharing the pay with thousands of other people... 

You can't expect most people sacrifice their time and effort mostly for the benefit of others like that.  The fact that it is fruitless to expect that caused socialism to fall. 

The problem here is misaligned incentives. 

<blockquote>
If you have one million STEEM it's not most important to get even more STEEM, it's important to increase the value of these STEEM you already own. 
</blockquote>

I don't think PoB can even theoretically work very well except in communities where most of the stake is controlled by a single app that rewards content creators strictly according to quality. Under that scenario, the main stakeholder has enough power and an incentive to curb abuse and reward commensurately to value created. 

Steem with its fast block processing time and free transactions is well suited to serve as the base layer powering an archipelago of such token economies.  EIP+WP is a step toward Steem becoming a non-PoB base layer and that's a good thing. Those things will help Steem limp onwards, hopefully for a few years more, to spread stake further before content rewards can be discontinued for good.

Unfortunately, Steemit, Inc still controls too large a stake for Steem to be sufficiently decentralized to be secure against external threats. As long as a form of PoB is practiced with STEEM, SBD and Vests, it would be in the best interests of Steemit, Inc as the largest stakeholder to help the community fight abusive maximisers and non-economic abusers who harass community members for their personal gratification. *That* would also help. Doing it correctly is easier said than done but it's an issue that should be on the table.
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@richardcrill ·
Exactly! Well said! I guess maybe they don't use the platform, so they don't see the issue. But c'mon, how short sighted can they be. How can they not listen to so many people who use the platform. I hope you get a reply. Your point is spot on.
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vote details (5)
@richardcrill ·
I wouldn't neccesarily decide that I had to give an equal vote to 50 post for one thing. I would give votes at different percentages based on what I thought they deserved. I do see this dilemna and that's why I'm not railing against delegation or curation guilds.  My points were mainly about bidbots. How do bidbots help to scale?
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@richardcrill · (edited)
Or a better way to put that question: why not just use delegation and curation guilds instead of bid bots? Bid bots are what undermines the trending page. So shouldn't we focus on solutions that don't undermine the trending page and the whole idea of curation in the first place?
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@richardcrill ·
I definitely see how delegation and curation guilds can be justified for the reasons you mentioned. And I see the use in projects like @curie and @tribesteemup, but those don't make the entire trending page sold to the highest bidder like bid bots do.
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vote details (7)
@sunlit7 ·
$0.10
>To find 50 good but undervalued posts on steemit.com every day might take quite a while

I don't know what you'd consider good but stuff like this deserves to go undiscovered not earning nearly $150.00  using bidbots to go trending.

https://steemit.com/art/@jellenmark/thanos-reimagined-with-infinity-2019-7-1-16-59-28

You guys actually think that people are going to downvote crap like this after the hardfolk to keep folks like this in line but the reality is when brought out into the spotlight in a post not even SFR would touch it because of who was behind paying the bidbots on it.  This post was at the most worth about as much as the paper it was written on.  This is one of the major reason Steem can't get out of it slump and attract new users.
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vote details (4)
@smooth ·
$0.02
> Even altruistic voting gives curation rewards especially if it ends up trending. That was the original design right? It encouraged people to add value which brings more and more value to the platform.

Well yes, but the original design was for curation rewards to be 50%, and they also did not have the penalty for the first 30-, 15- or soon to be 5-minutes. The changes that were made later, largely impulsively and without good rationale, undermined a lot of that balance to the point that curation rewards became almost meaningless, and the incentives to just sell votes became overwhelmingly strong.

The hope is that HF21 is going to re-balance those incentives _somewhat_ back toward what you describe, where altruistic or at least non-agnostic voting isn't so heavily penalized relative to vote selling. We'll see how it works out but it's certainly a step toward what you describe.
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vote details (1)
@richardcrill ·
Oh really, I didn't even realize it was originally 50/50. I hit 3 years here the other day and as far as I'm aware it's always been 75/25 during that time. I could be wrong about that as I'm just going off of memory.

I do think HF21 is a step in the right direction towards rebalancing those incentives. I'll be paying close attention to see the effects. I like the idea of incentivizing that altruistic behavior and I might even prefer that to instilling it as a culture, but I'm open to both routes to moving away from vote selling completely.
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@smooth ·
The change from 50/50 was made in mid 2016 so it is quite possible you weren't around for it.
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@steph4nus ·
@schoolofminnows is the solution to all your problems.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/steph4nus)
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@richardcrill ·
No it's not.
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@steph4nus ·
Yes it is

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/steph4nus)
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@valued-customer ·
$0.08
>"If there isn't a chance to trend organically or real human interaction, I don't see the point."

It isn't social media when bots are the voters.  Society isn't even involved in curation then.  It's just mining with automated tools.  I've no interest in mining.  I'm here for the ideas people exchange.  

That's where the actual value of Steem is: the social interaction.
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